[Python-Dev] Re: Is anyone relying on new-bugs-announce/python-bugs-list/bugs.python.org summaries

[Marc-Andre Lemburg]

On 24.08.2021 00:11, Ammar Askar wrote:
> Hey everyone,
> 
> As part of PEP 588, migrating bugs.python.org issues to Github, there
> are two current mailing list related items that need a replacement or
> need to be turned down.
> 
> 1. Weekly summary emails with bug counts and issues from the week,
> example: 
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/thread/JRFJ4QH7TR35HFRQWOYPPCGOYRFAXK24/

Not really, but they present some nice statistics.

> 2. Emails sent to the new-bugs-announce and python-bugs-list for new
> issues and comments to existing issues.

I rely on python-bugs-list and have a filter on that to trigger
on keywords I'm interested in. The list gets all updates for all
RoundUp bugs.

> I wanted to quickly gauge if anyone is relying on these mailing
> lists/emails or if it's a convenient part of your workflow. Feel free
> to chime in here or on the migration issues directly with your
> use-case:
> 
> 1. https://github.com/psf/gh-migration/issues/6
> 2. https://github.com/psf/gh-migration/issues/7

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

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[Python-Dev] Re: Should PEP 8 be updated for Python 3 only?

[Mike Miller]

How about moving Python 2 notes into a section at the bottom?


-Mike
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[Python-Dev] Re: Should PEP 8 be updated for Python 3 only?

[Brett Cannon]

On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 10:32 AM Mike Miller 
wrote:

>
> How about moving Python 2 notes into a section at the bottom?
>

I don't think that's useful. PEP 8 is still meant for the stdlib which is
obviously not using Python 2, so it just becomes baggage. Plus if people
want to refer to the old version they have the version history. And for
anyone who wants to keep the old version they can copy or fork it.


>
>
> -Mike
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[Python-Dev] My apologies to the list

[Brett Cannon]

I just wanted to apologize for any angst or noise my replies to Marco
caused folks. I should have known that correcting Marco on how to address
me would have triggered an outsized reply (the real intent of that overall
email was to communicate the process of banning someone to the rest of the
list so people didn't leave faster than we addressed it; obviously didn't
work). It appears my judgement was more impaired than I realized while I
have been sick.

As such, I have amended my rules for when I *don't* read OSS emails (this
excludes SC business):

   1. At least one day every weekend (to avoid having my whole week ruined
   by mean people)
   2. Outside of work hours one month out of the year (to prevent burn-out)
   3. On vacation (to unplug appropriately)
   4. While I am ill (to prevent impaired judgement)

I have actually gone as far as to separate my personal email and OSS/
python.org email accounts into separate email providers so that I can
enforce this separation cleanly.
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[Python-Dev] Re: Should PEP 8 be updated for Python 3 only?

[Eric V. Smith]

I think we’re better off removing them. 2.7 is completely unsupported by us. 

Why do you think they should still be kept?

--
Eric

> On Aug 25, 2021, at 1:32 PM, Mike Miller  wrote:
> 
> 
> How about moving Python 2 notes into a section at the bottom?
> 
> 
> -Mike
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[Python-Dev] Re: My apologies to the list

[Steve Holden]

You forgot:

5. When I just don't damned well feel like it.

Kind regards,
Steve


On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 8:25 PM Brett Cannon  wrote:

> I just wanted to apologize for any angst or noise my replies to Marco
> caused folks. I should have known that correcting Marco on how to address
> me would have triggered an outsized reply (the real intent of that overall
> email was to communicate the process of banning someone to the rest of the
> list so people didn't leave faster than we addressed it; obviously didn't
> work). It appears my judgement was more impaired than I realized while I
> have been sick.
>
> As such, I have amended my rules for when I *don't* read OSS emails (this
> excludes SC business):
>
>1. At least one day every weekend (to avoid having my whole week
>ruined by mean people)
>2. Outside of work hours one month out of the year (to prevent
>burn-out)
>3. On vacation (to unplug appropriately)
>4. While I am ill (to prevent impaired judgement)
>
> I have actually gone as far as to separate my personal email and OSS/
> python.org email accounts into separate email providers so that I can
> enforce this separation cleanly.
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> Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
>
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[Python-Dev] Re: Should PEP 8 be updated for Python 3 only?

[Steve Holden]

I suspect it's the same motivation that makes us comment out a block of
code rather than deleting it, even though we know the VCS will let us
retirive it whenever we want. If I'm wrong it won't be fatal. Or surprising
;-)

Kind regards,
Steve


On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 8:53 PM Eric V. Smith  wrote:

> I think we’re better off removing them. 2.7 is completely unsupported by
> us.
>
> Why do you think they should still be kept?
>
> --
> Eric
>
> > On Aug 25, 2021, at 1:32 PM, Mike Miller 
> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > How about moving Python 2 notes into a section at the bottom?
> >
> >
> > -Mike
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>
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[Python-Dev] Re: Should PEP 8 be updated for Python 3 only?

[Terry Reedy]

On 8/25/2021 6:48 PM, Steve Holden wrote:
I suspect it's the same motivation that makes us comment out a block of 
code rather than deleting it, even though we know the VCS will let us 
retirive it whenever we want. If I'm wrong it won't be fatal. Or 
surprising ;-)


Kind regards,
Steve


On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 8:53 PM Eric V. Smith > wrote:


I think we’re better off removing them. 2.7 is completely
unsupported by us.

Why do you think they should still be kept?

--
Eric

 > On Aug 25, 2021, at 1:32 PM, Mike Miller mailto:python-...@mgmiller.net>> wrote:
 >
 > 
 > How about moving Python 2 notes into a section at the bottom?


I initially thought of this also, for +- the reason Steve gives.  But 
PEP 8 still specifically applies to the stdlib and we only edit 3.6+. 
So I agree with Eric.


We could add (perhaps at the end of the first paragraph) something like 
"(Since the 2.x stdlib is frozen, all 2.x-specific guidelines were 
removed in Sept 2021.)"  Anyone interested could then check git log for 
the last commit before then.  And everyone would know that what follows 
is for 3.x.


--
Terry Jan Reedy


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[Python-Dev] Re: Should PEP 8 be updated for Python 3 only?

[Christopher Barker]

I'm working on a PR now. It seems there is little support for keeping the
python2 content in the docs, so I'm re-writing it as though it was never
there. If someone wants to add a note about Python 2, of course that can be
added later.

Note that "moving the Python 2 content to a section at the end" is not all
that straightforward, as it is pretty mixed in with the text at this point.

But now a question -- the current text reads:

"Code in the core Python distribution should always use UTF-8"

and then:

"In the standard library, non-default encodings should be used only for
test purposes or when a comment or docstring needs to mention an author
name that contains non-ASCII characters ..."

I *think* that's a remnant of the Py2 ASCII encoding days -- but I wanted
to make sure, a bit later on, it says:

"The following policy is prescribed for the
standard library ... In addition, string literals and comments must also be
in ASCII."

Is that still correct for string literals and comments? And what
about docstrings?

It seems to me that if we really are utf-8, then there is no need for those
"textual" elements to be ASCII. e.g they can still contain non-ascii
characters, and escaping those makes things less readable, not more.

So I think that section should now read:

"""
Source File Encoding


Code in the core Python distribution should always use UTF-8, and should
not have an encoding declaration.

In the standard library, non-UTF-8 encodings should be used only for
test purposes.

The following policy is prescribed for the standard library (see PEP
3131): All identifiers in the Python standard library MUST use
ASCII-only identifiers, and SHOULD use English words wherever feasible
(in many cases, abbreviations and technical terms are used which aren't
English). In comment and docstrings, authors whose names tht are not
based on the Latin alphabet (latin-1, ISO/IEC 8859-1 character set)
MUST provide a transliteration of their names in this character set.

Open source projects with a global audience are encouraged to adopt a
similar policy.
"""

But maybe we do want to keep comments, docstrings and literals as ASCII
with escapes?

-- 
Christopher Barker, PhD (Chris)

Python Language Consulting
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[Python-Dev] Re: Should PEP 8 be updated for Python 3 only?

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Terry Reedy writes:

 > We could add (perhaps at the end of the first paragraph) something like 
 > "(Since the 2.x stdlib is frozen, all 2.x-specific guidelines were 
 > removed in Sept 2021.)"  Anyone interested could then check git log for 
 > the last commit before then.

How about including the most recent 'main' SHA1 (where a 6-character
prefix should do, and "the" refers to Chris's clone, we don't need to
be hugely fussy about the exact previous commit when it eventually
gets merged), or even tag it?

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[Python-Dev] Notes on PEP 8

[Christopher Barker]

As I was working on removing Python 2 references from PEP 8 (PR:
https://github.com/python/peps/pull/2059), I tried to avoid any other
copy-editing.

However, I noted a few things that maybe could use some attention:

stdlib or not?
##

Right at the top, it says:

"This document gives coding conventions for the Python code comprising the
standard library in the main Python distribution."

However, it has become a de facto standard for all Python code, and in the
document itself, there is frequent wording akin to "Identifiers used in the
standard library must be ASCII compatible ...", and even advice for third
party libraries.

Which I think is acknowledging that PEP 8 is indeed not only about the
standard library.

So maybe there should be a bit of text about that at the top.

Name Mangling
#

In the sections on "Method Names and Instance Variables" and "Designing for
Inheritance", the discussion of name mangling (leading __ names) is a bit
redundant. Nothing incorrect or misleading -- just a copy-editing issue.

Maybe I'll do a copy-editing PR 

-CHB


-- 
Christopher Barker, PhD (Chris)

Python Language Consulting
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[Python-Dev] Re: Should PEP 8 be updated for Python 3 only?

[Christopher Barker]

OK,

PR here:

https://github.com/python/peps/pull/2059

Interesting some of the cruft in there e.g.  still referring to "new style
classes" :-)

I'll leave it to the PEP editors to decide about a note about Python 2.

-CHB


On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 10:28 PM Stephen J. Turnbull <
stephenjturnb...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Terry Reedy writes:
>
>  > We could add (perhaps at the end of the first paragraph) something like
>  > "(Since the 2.x stdlib is frozen, all 2.x-specific guidelines were
>  > removed in Sept 2021.)"  Anyone interested could then check git log for
>  > the last commit before then.
>
> How about including the most recent 'main' SHA1 (where a 6-character
> prefix should do, and "the" refers to Chris's clone, we don't need to
> be hugely fussy about the exact previous commit when it eventually
> gets merged), or even tag it?
>
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>


-- 
Christopher Barker, PhD (Chris)

Python Language Consulting
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