[Python-Dev] Re: How to respond to repeated bad ideas

[Steve Holden]

The webmaster list sends an auto-response to new posters. If something like
that could happen on python-dev too, as long as the advice was clear enough
the list could then simply ignore such requests, knowing that the
auto-responder had taken care of it. This could drive posters to
python-list or python-ideas. There's nothing to stop individual devs still
replying if the inquiry merits it ...

Kind regards,
Steve


On Mon, Mar 2, 2020 at 10:49 PM Bar Harel  wrote:

> What I usually do btw is just search on mailman. Perhaps we can guide
> people to search on mailman before suggesting an idea?
>
> On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 12:30 AM Bar Harel  wrote:
>
>> I wrote it and take full responsibility, did not mean to be
>> disrespectful. Afterall, it's not what any of us are here for.
>>
>> For repeated suggestions though, that were rejected once or more in the
>> past, what are the general guidelines of answering?
>> In this case, apart from the rejection reason, we wish to teach the
>> newbie how to check if an idea was already suggested, else his ideas would
>> just be rejected over and over again.
>>
>> Atm we don't have an index of ideas, apart from pep 3099, and I'm not
>> sure we can make one (can we?), so I do not see a way to prevent this from
>> happening.
>>
>> I bet that many ideas are repeated, we don't know it, and it therefore
>> causes a repeated discussion with time and effort going nowhere.
>>
>> Just to clarify, my aim by answering it this way was to reduce the
>> overall effort of both sides, and the attempt to reinvent the wheel. It's
>> much like how duplicate stackoverflow questions are closed.
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 2, 2020, 11:58 PM Guido van Rossum  wrote:
>>
>>> Somebody wrote, in response to a newbie's idea:
>>>
 This idea is proposed at least once a year. You're able to read past
 discussions on python-ideas for the full list of rejection reasons.

>>>
>>> This   needs to go. It's unfair to the newbie, and I bet that in most
>>> cases whoever posts this doesn't have the slightest idea on how to find the
>>> specific rejection reason for the idea to which they're responding. I agree
>>> that many bad ideas come up repeatedly. But unless the proposer is a
>>> regular harasser of one of the lists, a response like this is unhelpful.
>>> Even if an idea is bad, let's respond in a friendly way, so the OP actually
>>> learns something about how Python is designed, or how it works, or whatever
>>> is relevant to understanding why their idea won't fly.
>>>
>>> --
>>> --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
>>> *Pronouns: he/him **(why is my pronoun here?)*
>>> 
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[Python-Dev] Re: How to respond to repeated bad ideas

[Henk-Jaap Wagenaar]

On Tue, 3 Mar 2020 at 07:27, Serhiy Storchaka  wrote:

> 03.03.20 01:03, Skip Montanaro пише:
> >> Atm we don't have an index of ideas, apart from pep 3099, and I'm not
> sure we can make one (can we?), so I do not see a way to prevent this from
> happening.
> >
> > Maybe an informational PEP which briefly lists rejected ideas?
>
> There is a risk to accept this PEP as it happened to PEP 572 which was
> initially created with a similar purpose.
>

If after an idea is rejected it is later accepted (which would probably be
harder to have happen, as it has been rejected before), due to changing
circumstances or sentiment I would expect the acceptance to be a *good*
thing. Previous decisions should not bind future decisions?

I might have misunderstood your point.
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[Python-Dev] PEP 614 accepted

[Barry Warsaw]

By unanimous consent, the Python Steering Council unanimously accepts PEP 614 —
Relaxing Grammar Restrictions On Decorators.

Congratulations to PEP author Brandt and PEP sponsor Guido, and thanks to 
everyone who’s worked on this PEP and its implementation.

Cheers,
-Barry



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[Python-Dev] Re: How to respond to repeated bad ideas

[Eric V. Smith]

On 3/3/2020 2:18 AM, Serhiy Storchaka wrote:

03.03.20 01:03, Skip Montanaro пише:
Atm we don't have an index of ideas, apart from pep 3099, and I'm 
not sure we can make one (can we?), so I do not see a way to prevent 
this from happening.


Maybe an informational PEP which briefly lists rejected ideas?


There is a risk to accept this PEP as it happened to PEP 572 which was 
initially created with a similar purpose.


And the walrus operator was also mentioned in PEP 3099 as being not in 
scope for Py3K.


But I think as a rule, a new contributor is unlikely to get such an idea 
accepted, so there's not much risk in listing rejected ideas, although 
I'm not sure a PEP is the right place for it. Although it may be as good 
a place as we've got.


Eric
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[Python-Dev] Re: PEP 614 accepted

[Brandt Bucher]

Thanks to Guido for sponsoring, and to the SC for their acceptance!

Brandt
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[Python-Dev] Re: PEP 614 accepted

[Ethan Furman]

On 03/03/2020 10:13 AM, Barry Warsaw wrote:


Congratulations to PEP author Brandt and PEP sponsor Guido, and thanks to 
everyone who’s worked on this PEP and its implementation.


Congratulations!!

--
~Ethan~
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[Python-Dev] Re: PEP 614 accepted

[Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer]

Just for learning purposes, why was this improvement not included at the
beginning? (I missed the original thread)

Yours,

Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer
pythonmembers.club  | github

Mauritius


>
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[Python-Dev] Re: PEP 614 accepted

[Batuhan Taskaya]

Congratulations Brandt!

On Tue, Mar 3, 2020, 9:19 PM Barry Warsaw  wrote:

> By unanimous consent, the Python Steering Council unanimously accepts PEP
> 614 —
> Relaxing Grammar Restrictions On Decorators.
>
> Congratulations to PEP author Brandt and PEP sponsor Guido, and thanks to
> everyone who’s worked on this PEP and its implementation.
>
> Cheers,
> -Barry
>
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[Python-Dev] Re: PEP 614 accepted

[Paul Moore]

On Tue, 3 Mar 2020 at 19:31, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer
 wrote:
>
> Just for learning purposes, why was this improvement not included at the 
> beginning? (I missed the original thread)

Mostly just a matter of caution. It's a lot easier to relax the
restrictions later than it is to add restrictions once the feature is
in use. And it wasn't obvious at the time that full expression syntax
was needed, or that it wouldn't expose some weird corner cases.

Paul
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[Python-Dev] Re: PEP 614 accepted

[Victor Stinner]

Le mar. 3 mars 2020 à 20:30, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer
 a écrit :
> Just for learning purposes, why was this improvement not included at the 
> beginning? (I missed the original thread)

It's explained in the second paragraph of the PEP:
https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0614/#motivation

Victor
-- 
Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death.
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[Python-Dev] Re: How to respond to repeated bad ideas

[Nick Coghlan]

On Tue., 3 Mar. 2020, 2:11 pm Kyle Stanley,  wrote:

> > In most cases of a first-time poster that I've seen, the poster probably
> doesn't have the understanding needed to conduct a proper search of the
> mailing list. That's why I suggest responding with some genuine help (i.e.
> taking their idea at face value and explaining what's wrong with it).
>
> It might also be helpful to directly link to a few of those past
> discussions; particularly if they had some relevant responses that could
> provide some valuable insight for the OP. I've done this a few times, and
> mentioned that if they want to still proceed with their idea, they'd have
> to address the previous concerns brought up. IMO, this provides a good
> balance of avoiding an exact repetition of past discussions, providing the
> OP with some answers, and in a best case scenario the OP might have valid
> counterarguments to the previous reason(s) the proposal was rejected.
>

For particularly common questions, we do have the design FAQ available:

https://docs.python.org/3/faq/design.html

Having pre-canned answers there helps in a few ways:

* folks may find those entries on their own, and consider their question
answered
* folks responding on Q&A sites like Stack Overflow can cite specific links
with a design rationale for points which didn't rate their own PEP
* we can use the links ourselves when responding to recurring proposals on
python.org mailing lists or Discourse

Being versioned along with the code also helps keep track of when answers
change (e.g.
https://docs.python.org/3/faq/design.html#why-can-t-i-use-an-assignment-in-an-expression
)

Cheers,
Nick.



>
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[Python-Dev] New discuss.python.org category: Core Dev

[Brett Cannon]

I just created https://discuss.python.org/c/core-dev/ to somewhat mirror this 
mailing list as people were asking for an equivalent space on 
discuss.python.org due to the Users category now being heavily used for user 
questions (which makes sense based on the title 😄). I also moved the SC 
Nominations to be a subcategory under Core Dev so it can still be publicly 
accessible but not hidden if people choose to mute the Users category (which I 
know has been a problem in the past for some people).
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[Python-Dev] Re: New discuss.python.org category: Core Dev

[Kyle Stanley]

Thanks for adding the new section, Brett. :)

Was the name "Core Development" also considered? To me, it seems like "Core
Dev" could be interpreted as abbreviating "Core Developer", which seems
roughly equivalent to the existing "Committers" category (at least based on
the name alone). I'm sure that either would be fine as long as people read
the pinned "About this category" topic, but I suspect that the name "Core
Development" would make the purpose of the category more immediately clear.


On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 7:09 PM Brett Cannon  wrote:

> I just created https://discuss.python.org/c/core-dev/ to somewhat mirror
> this mailing list as people were asking for an equivalent space on
> discuss.python.org due to the Users category now being heavily used for
> user questions (which makes sense based on the title 😄). I also moved the
> SC Nominations to be a subcategory under Core Dev so it can still be
> publicly accessible but not hidden if people choose to mute the Users
> category (which I know has been a problem in the past for some people).
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[Python-Dev] Re: New discuss.python.org category: Core Dev

[Brett Cannon]

Kyle Stanley wrote:
> Thanks for adding the new section, Brett. :)
> Was the name "Core Development" also considered?

Nope, no one suggested it. Feel free to hit up the thread under Discourse 
Feedback to see what others think.

-Brett

> To me, it seems like "Core
> Dev" could be interpreted as abbreviating "Core Developer", which seems
> roughly equivalent to the existing "Committers" category (at least based on
> the name alone). I'm sure that either would be fine as long as people read
> the pinned "About this category" topic, but I suspect that the name "Core
> Development" would make the purpose of the category more immediately clear.
> On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 7:09 PM Brett Cannon br...@python.org wrote:
> > I just created https://discuss.python.org/c/core-dev/
> > to somewhat mirror
> > this mailing list as people were asking for an equivalent space on
> > discuss.python.org due to the Users category now being heavily used for
> > user questions (which makes sense based on the title 😄). I also moved the
> > SC Nominations to be a subcategory under Core Dev so it can still be
> > publicly accessible but not hidden if people choose to mute the Users
> > category (which I know has been a problem in the past for some people).
> > 
> > Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
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> > Message archived at
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> > Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
> >
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[Python-Dev] VS Code extension for Python.asdl

[Brett Cannon]

https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=brettcannon.zephyr-asdl

Basically syntax highlighting and automatic bracket matching for those that 
ever have to work with Python.asdl. If the number of direct installs of this 
extension breaks into double digits I will be a bit shocked. ;)
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[Python-Dev] Re: VS Code extension for Python.asdl

[Guido van Rossum]

How easy are extensions like this to make? We might want to have one for
the PEG grammar (if it goes through).

On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 6:44 PM Brett Cannon  wrote:

> https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=brettcannon.zephyr-asdl
>
> Basically syntax highlighting and automatic bracket matching for those
> that ever have to work with Python.asdl. If the number of direct installs
> of this extension breaks into double digits I will be a bit shocked. ;)
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-- 
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
*Pronouns: he/him **(why is my pronoun here?)*

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