Re: [Python-Dev] svn.python.org confusion

2011-06-29 Thread Sandro Tosi
On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 03:05, Vinay Sajip  wrote:
> Ned Deily  acm.org> writes:
>
>> Could some text be added to the svn browser pages to at least indicate
>> that the repo is no longer being updated with a link to the
>> hg.python.org browser?   I'm not sure what to do about the repos
>> themselves if people attempt to do an svn co.  Perhaps that should just
>> be disabled totally for python?
>
> At least some of the stuff in the SVN repo is still needed, AFAICT. I recently
> did a build of the Python Windows binary installer, and I understand (from the
> buildbot instructions) that the best source of some of the external 
> dependencies
> (bz2, Tcl/Tk, openssl etc.) is still the SVN repo.

SVN is also used to fetch third-party tools to build documentation,
such as: sphinx, docutils, jinja, and pygments. These locations are
also advertised on
http://docs.python.org/py3k/documenting/building.html (that contains
outdated info, but that's another story).

Cheers,
-- 
Sandro Tosi (aka morph, morpheus, matrixhasu)
My website: http://matrixhasu.altervista.org/
Me at Debian: http://wiki.debian.org/SandroTosi
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Re: [Python-Dev] open(): set the default encoding to 'utf-8' in Python 3.3?

2011-06-29 Thread Baptiste Carvello

Le 28/06/2011 16:46, Paul Moore a écrit :


-1. This will make things harder for simple scripts which are not
intended to be cross-platform.


+1 to all you said.

I frequently use the python command prompt or "python -c" for various quick 
tasks (mostly on linux). I would hate to replace my ugly, but working


>>> open('example.txt').read()

with the unnecessarily verbose

>>> open('example.txt',encoding='utf-8').read()

When using python that way as a "swiss army knife", typing does matter.


My preferred solution would be:


- emit a warning if the encoding argument is not set


By the way, I just thought that for real programming, I would love to have a 
-Wcrossplatform command switch, which would warn for all unportable constructs 
in one go. That way, I don't have to remember which parts of 'os' wrap 
posix-only functionnality.


Baptiste

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Re: [Python-Dev] open(): set the default encoding to 'utf-8' in Python 3.3?

2011-06-29 Thread Barry Warsaw
On Jun 28, 2011, at 09:42 PM, Georg Brandl wrote:

>We need to stop making incompatible changes to Python 3.  We had the chance
>and took it to break all kinds of stuff, some of it gratuitous, with 3.0 and
>even 3.1.  Now the users need a period of compatibility and stability (just
>like the language moratorium provided for one aspect of Python).

+1.  I think this is the #1 complaint I hear about Python in talking to
users.  I think in general we do a pretty good job of maintaining backward
compatibility between releases, but not a perfect job, and the places where we
miss can be painful for folks.  It may be difficult to achieve in all cases,
but compatibility should be carefully and thoroughly considered for all
changes, especially in the stdlib, and clearly documented where deliberate
decisions to break that are adopted.

-Barry


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Re: [Python-Dev] open(): set the default encoding to 'utf-8' in Python 3.3?

2011-06-29 Thread M.-A. Lemburg
Victor Stinner wrote:
> Le mardi 28 juin 2011 à 16:02 +0200, M.-A. Lemburg a écrit :
>> How about a more radical change: have open() in Py3 default to
>> opening the file in binary mode, if no encoding is given (even
>> if the mode doesn't include 'b') ?
> 
> I tried your suggested change: Python doesn't start.

No surprise there: it's an incompatible change, but one that undoes
a wart introduced in the Py3 transition. Guessing encodings should
be avoided whenever possible.

> sysconfig uses the implicit locale encoding to read sysconfig.cfg, the
> Makefile and pyconfig.h. I think that it is correct to use the locale
> encoding for Makefile and pyconfig.h, but maybe not for sysconfig.cfg.
> 
> Python require more changes just to run "make". I was able to run "make"
> by using encoding='utf-8' in various functions (of distutils and
> setup.py). I didn't try the test suite, I expect too many failures.

This demonstrates that Python's stdlib is still not being explicit
about the encoding issues. I suppose that things just happen to work
because we mostly use ASCII files for configuration and setup.

> --
> 
> Then I tried my suggestion (use "utf-8" by default): Python starts
> correctly, I can build it (run "make") and... the full test suite pass
> without any change. (I'm testing on Linux, my locale encoding is UTF-8.)

I bet it would also with "ascii" in most cases. Which then just
means that the Python build process and test suite is not a good
test case for choosing a default encoding.

Linux is also a poor test candidate for this, since most user setups
will use UTF-8 as locale encoding. Windows, OTOH, uses all sorts of
code page encodings (usually not UTF-8), so you are likely to hit
the real problem cases a lot easier.

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Source  (#1, Jun 29 2011)
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Re: [Python-Dev] svn.python.org confusion

2011-06-29 Thread Ned Deily
In article ,
 Sandro Tosi  wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 03:05, Vinay Sajip  wrote:
> > Ned Deily  acm.org> writes:
> >> Could some text be added to the svn browser pages to at least indicate
> >> that the repo is no longer being updated with a link to the
> >> hg.python.org browser?   I'm not sure what to do about the repos
> >> themselves if people attempt to do an svn co.  Perhaps that should just
> >> be disabled totally for python?
> > At least some of the stuff in the SVN repo is still needed, AFAICT. I 
> > recently
> > did a build of the Python Windows binary installer, and I understand (from 
> > the
> > buildbot instructions) that the best source of some of the external 
> > dependencies
> > (bz2, Tcl/Tk, openssl etc.) is still the SVN repo.
> 
> SVN is also used to fetch third-party tools to build documentation,
> such as: sphinx, docutils, jinja, and pygments. These locations are
> also advertised on
> http://docs.python.org/py3k/documenting/building.html (that contains
> outdated info, but that's another story).

Yes, by "for python", I meant the active python development "branches" 
(py3k->default, 3.2, 2.7).

-- 
 Ned Deily,
 n...@acm.org

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Re: [Python-Dev] open(): set the default encoding to 'utf-8' in Python 3.3?

2011-06-29 Thread Victor Stinner
Le mercredi 29 juin 2011 à 10:18 +0200, M.-A. Lemburg a écrit :
> Victor Stinner wrote:
> > Le mardi 28 juin 2011 à 16:02 +0200, M.-A. Lemburg a écrit :
> >> How about a more radical change: have open() in Py3 default to
> >> opening the file in binary mode, if no encoding is given (even
> >> if the mode doesn't include 'b') ?
> > 
> > I tried your suggested change: Python doesn't start.
> 
> No surprise there: it's an incompatible change, but one that undoes
> a wart introduced in the Py3 transition. Guessing encodings should
> be avoided whenever possible.

It means that all programs written for Python 3.0, 3.1, 3.2 will stop
working with the new 3.x version (let say 3.3). Users will have to
migrate from Python 2 to Python 3.2, and then migration from Python 3.2
to Python 3.3 :-(

I would prefer a ResourceWarning (emited if the encoding is not
specified), hidden by default: it doesn't break compatibility, and
-Werror gives exactly the same behaviour that you expect.

> This demonstrates that Python's stdlib is still not being explicit
> about the encoding issues. I suppose that things just happen to work
> because we mostly use ASCII files for configuration and setup.

I did more tests. I found some mistakes and sometimes the binary mode
can be used, but most function really expect the locale encoding (it is
the correct encoding to read-write files). I agree that it would be to
have an explicit encoding="locale", but make it mandatory is a little
bit rude.

> > Then I tried my suggestion (use "utf-8" by default): Python starts
> > correctly, I can build it (run "make") and... the full test suite pass
> > without any change. (I'm testing on Linux, my locale encoding is UTF-8.)
> 
> I bet it would also with "ascii" in most cases. Which then just
> means that the Python build process and test suite is not a good
> test case for choosing a default encoding.
> 
> Linux is also a poor test candidate for this, since most user setups
> will use UTF-8 as locale encoding. Windows, OTOH, uses all sorts of
> code page encodings (usually not UTF-8), so you are likely to hit
> the real problem cases a lot easier.

I also ran the test suite on my patched Python (open uses UTF-8 by
default) with ASCII locale encoding (LANG=C), the test suite does also
pass. Many tests uses non-ASCII characters, some of them are skipped if
the locale encoding is unable to encode the tested text.

Victor

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Re: [Python-Dev] open(): set the default encoding to 'utf-8' in Python 3.3?

2011-06-29 Thread Victor Stinner
Le mercredi 29 juin 2011 à 09:21 +0200, Baptiste Carvello a écrit :
> By the way, I just thought that for real programming, I would love to have a 
> -Wcrossplatform command switch, which would warn for all unportable 
> constructs 
> in one go. That way, I don't have to remember which parts of 'os' wrap 
> posix-only functionnality.

When I developed using PHP, error_reporting(E_ALL) was really useful. I
would like a same function on Python, but I realized that it is not
necessary. Python is already strict *by default*.

Python can help developers to warn them about some "corner cases". We
have already the -bb option for bytes/str warnings (in Python 3),
-Werror to convert warnings to exceptions, and ResourceWarning (since
Python 3.2) for unclosed files/sockets. I "just" would like a new
warning for an implicit locale encoding, so -Wcrossplatform would be as
easy as -Werror. -Werror is like Perl "use strict;" or PHP
error_reporting(E_ALL). Use -Wd if you prefer to display warnings
instead of raising exceptions.

See issue #11455 and #11470 for a new "CompatibilityWarning", it's not
"cross platform" but "cross Python" :-) It warns about implementation
details like non strings keys in a type dict.

Victor

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Re: [Python-Dev] open(): set the default encoding to 'utf-8' in Python 3.3?

2011-06-29 Thread M.-A. Lemburg
Victor Stinner wrote:
> Le mercredi 29 juin 2011 à 10:18 +0200, M.-A. Lemburg a écrit :
>> Victor Stinner wrote:
>>> Le mardi 28 juin 2011 à 16:02 +0200, M.-A. Lemburg a écrit :
 How about a more radical change: have open() in Py3 default to
 opening the file in binary mode, if no encoding is given (even
 if the mode doesn't include 'b') ?
>>>
>>> I tried your suggested change: Python doesn't start.
>>
>> No surprise there: it's an incompatible change, but one that undoes
>> a wart introduced in the Py3 transition. Guessing encodings should
>> be avoided whenever possible.
> 
> It means that all programs written for Python 3.0, 3.1, 3.2 will stop
> working with the new 3.x version (let say 3.3). Users will have to
> migrate from Python 2 to Python 3.2, and then migration from Python 3.2
> to Python 3.3 :-(

I wasn't suggesting doing this for 3.3, but we may want to start
the usual feature change process to make the change eventually
happen.

> I would prefer a ResourceWarning (emited if the encoding is not
> specified), hidden by default: it doesn't break compatibility, and
> -Werror gives exactly the same behaviour that you expect.

ResourceWarning is the wrong type of warning for this. I'd
suggest to use a UnicodeWarning or perhaps create a new
EncodingWarning instead.

>> This demonstrates that Python's stdlib is still not being explicit
>> about the encoding issues. I suppose that things just happen to work
>> because we mostly use ASCII files for configuration and setup.
> 
> I did more tests. I found some mistakes and sometimes the binary mode
> can be used, but most function really expect the locale encoding (it is
> the correct encoding to read-write files). I agree that it would be to
> have an explicit encoding="locale", but make it mandatory is a little
> bit rude.

Again: Using a locale based default encoding will not work out
in the long run. We've had those discussions many times in the
past.

I don't think there's anything bad with having the user require
to set an encoding if he wants to read text. It makes him/her
think twice about the encoding issue, which is good.

And, of course, the stdlib should start using this
explicit-is-better-than-implicit approach as well.

>>> Then I tried my suggestion (use "utf-8" by default): Python starts
>>> correctly, I can build it (run "make") and... the full test suite pass
>>> without any change. (I'm testing on Linux, my locale encoding is UTF-8.)
>>
>> I bet it would also with "ascii" in most cases. Which then just
>> means that the Python build process and test suite is not a good
>> test case for choosing a default encoding.
>>
>> Linux is also a poor test candidate for this, since most user setups
>> will use UTF-8 as locale encoding. Windows, OTOH, uses all sorts of
>> code page encodings (usually not UTF-8), so you are likely to hit
>> the real problem cases a lot easier.
> 
> I also ran the test suite on my patched Python (open uses UTF-8 by
> default) with ASCII locale encoding (LANG=C), the test suite does also
> pass. Many tests uses non-ASCII characters, some of them are skipped if
> the locale encoding is unable to encode the tested text.

Thanks for checking. So the build process and test suite are
indeed not suitable test cases for the problem at hand. With
just ASCII files to decode, Python will simply never fail
to decode the content, regardless of whether you use an ASCII,
UTF-8 or some Windows code page as locale encoding.

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Source  (#1, Jun 29 2011)
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Re: [Python-Dev] [Python-checkins] cpython: Issue #12400: fix test_faulthandler if regrtest captures sys.stderr

2011-06-29 Thread Nick Coghlan
On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 9:43 PM, victor.stinner
 wrote:
> http://hg.python.org/cpython/rev/80c7d63325f6
> changeset:   71065:80c7d63325f6
> user:        Victor Stinner 
> date:        Wed Jun 29 13:44:05 2011 +0200
> summary:
>  Issue #12400: fix test_faulthandler if regrtest captures sys.stderr
>
> faulthandler.enable() requires that sys.stderr has a fileno() method.

Would there be any value in falling back to sys.__stderr__ in the case
where sys.stderr has been redirected?

Cheers,
Nick.

-- 
Nick Coghlan   |   ncogh...@gmail.com   |   Brisbane, Australia
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[Python-Dev] PEP 397 (Python launcher for Windows) reference implementation

2011-06-29 Thread Vinay Sajip
PEP 397 (Python launcher for Windows) has a reference implementation in Python.
Does anyone know of a C implementation, or is planning/working on one? I realise
this is the final objective, so such implementation might be premature, but
perhaps someone has been experimenting ...

Regards,

Vinay Sajip


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Re: [Python-Dev] [Python-checkins] cpython (3.2): Issue #12400: runtest() truncates the StringIO stream before a new test

2011-06-29 Thread Victor Stinner
Le mercredi 29 juin 2011 à 13:05 -0400, Terry Reedy a écrit :
> On 6/29/2011 11:30 AM, victor.stinner wrote:
> 
> > summary:
> >Issue #12400: runtest() truncates the StringIO stream before a new test
> >
> > files:
> >Lib/test/regrtest.py |  1 +
> >1 files changed, 1 insertions(+), 0 deletions(-)
> >
> >
> > diff --git a/Lib/test/regrtest.py b/Lib/test/regrtest.py
> > --- a/Lib/test/regrtest.py
> > +++ b/Lib/test/regrtest.py
> > @@ -793,6 +793,7 @@
> >   if runtest.stringio is None:
> >   runtest.stringio = io.StringIO()
> >   stream = runtest.stringio
> > +stream.truncate(0)
> 
> You *MUST* seek to 0 to reset the file position, which I presume is your 
> intention. 'Resize' does not mean what you probably think is does (and 
> what I thought once either ;-).
> 
> "truncate(size=None)
> Resize the stream to the given size in bytes (or the current position if 
> size is not specified). The current stream position isn’t changed."
> 
>  >>> s=io.StringIO()
>  >>> s.write('abc')
> 3
>  >>> s.truncate(0)
> 0
>  >>> s.tell()
> 3
>  >>> s.write('abc')
> 3
>  >>> s.getvalue()
> '\x00\x00\x00abc'

Oh crap. I read _pyio source code and .truncate(0) was looking for the
right method to "reset" a StringIO. I tried .truncate(0) in a terminal,
but the zeros ('\x00') are "hidden". sys.stdout.write("\0") doesn't
print anything in my Linux terminal.

Fixed by commit 450209efe272, thank you.

Victor

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Re: [Python-Dev] svn.python.org confusion

2011-06-29 Thread Martin v. Löwis

> Could some text be added to the svn browser pages to at least indicate 
> that the repo is no longer being updated with a link to the 
> hg.python.org browser?

Adding some text to only some pages (namely those that have been
migrated to mercurial) is difficult - so difficult that I won't
have time for it within the next 12 months. Contributions are welcome.

> I'm not sure what to do about the repos 
> themselves if people attempt to do an svn co.  Perhaps that should just 
> be disabled totally for python?

It would certainly be possible to "svn rm" the trunk directory, if that
is any help.

Of course, this would also break all URL links into this tree, of which
there are still plenty (and they likely won't go away in the years to
come).

So I would rather check a file into the directory with the name

THIS_SUBVERSION_REPOSITORY_HAS_BEEN_MIGRATED_TO_MERCURIAL_DO_NOT_USE_IT_FOR_ANYTHING_BUT_ARCHEOLOGICAL_RESEARCH.txt

See also

http://python.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/python/python/
http://python.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/python/python/dist/src/

Regards,
Martin
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Re: [Python-Dev] [Python-checkins] cpython (2.7): Fixup repr for dict_proxy objects.

2011-06-29 Thread Ezio Melotti
Hi,

On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 2:51 AM, raymond.hettinger <
python-check...@python.org> wrote:

> http://hg.python.org/cpython/rev/9a0b6c07b488
> changeset:   71086:9a0b6c07b488
> branch:  2.7
> parent:  71055:cdfcd00873cd
> user:Raymond Hettinger 
> date:Thu Jun 30 00:44:36 2011 +0100
> summary:
>  Fixup repr for dict_proxy objects.
>


This was already fixed in a slightly different way in 3.x.  Unless there's a
valid reason to have two different implementations of dict_proxy.__repr__ in
2.x and 3.x, I would suggest to pick the best one and use it on all the
branches.
See also http://bugs.python.org/issue5587

Best Regards,
Ezio Melotti
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[Python-Dev] speed.python.org machine online

2011-06-29 Thread Jesse Noller
I've posted a more expansive entry on my blog:
http://jessenoller.com/2011/06/29/announcing-the-new-speed-python-org-machine/

But the short version, that as discussed at the VM and language
summit, we now have a hosted machine dedicated to the running of
cross-interpreter speed tests, etc. The hardware was generously donate
by HP and the hosting provided, again, free, by OSU/OSL.

DL380 HP DL380G7 X5670 LFF (2U)
Dual HP NC382i Dual Port Mul­ti­func­tion Giga­bit Server Adapters
HP Smart Array P410i/1GB FBWC Controller
4x 4GB (1x4GB) Dual Rank x4 PC3-10600 (DDR3-1333) Reg­is­tered CAS-9 Mem­ory Kit
2x HP 750W Com­mon Slot Gold Hot Plug Power Sup­ply Kit
HP iLO Advanced includ­ing 1yr 24x7 Tech­ni­cal Sup­port and Updates
Elec­tronic  License
4x HP 300GB 6G SAS 15K rpm LFF (3.5-inch) Dual Port Enter­prise 3yr
War­ranty Hard Drive
2   HP DL380 G7 Intel® Xeon® X5680 (3.33GHz/6-core/130W/12MB) FIO Proces­sor Kit

With hyperthreading on, the machine has 24 cores, and handily
translates pypy using cpython 2.7 in about half the time it typically
takes.

I am looking forward to handing this over to the team who will be
running with the project from here on out - special thanks to Van, Bob
Gobeille at HP and the entire OSU/OSL team.

jesse
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Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 397 (Python launcher for Windows) reference implementation

2011-06-29 Thread Mark Hammond

On 30/06/2011 3:00 AM, Vinay Sajip wrote:

PEP 397 (Python launcher for Windows) has a reference implementation in Python.
Does anyone know of a C implementation, or is planning/working on one? I realise
this is the final objective, so such implementation might be premature, but
perhaps someone has been experimenting ...


Not yet - my last update of the PEP has made the existing reference 
implementation out-of-date, so I want to work on that before starting on 
the C version.  However, seeing as my note about the most recent PEP 
update attracted zero comments, I admit I lost any sense of urgency on 
actually doing this...  I'll make an effort to update that reference 
impl in the next week or so (but obviously anyone else is free to help ;)


Cheers,

Mark
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Re: [Python-Dev] speed.python.org machine online

2011-06-29 Thread Eric Snow
On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 10:05 PM, Jesse Noller  wrote:
> I've posted a more expansive entry on my blog:
> http://jessenoller.com/2011/06/29/announcing-the-new-speed-python-org-machine/
>
> But the short version, that as discussed at the VM and language
> summit, we now have a hosted machine dedicated to the running of
> cross-interpreter speed tests, etc. The hardware was generously donate
> by HP and the hosting provided, again, free, by OSU/OSL.
>
> DL380 HP DL380G7 X5670 LFF (2U)
> Dual HP NC382i Dual Port Mul­ti­func­tion Giga­bit Server Adapters
> HP Smart Array P410i/1GB FBWC Controller
> 4x 4GB (1x4GB) Dual Rank x4 PC3-10600 (DDR3-1333) Reg­is­tered CAS-9 Mem­ory 
> Kit
> 2x HP 750W Com­mon Slot Gold Hot Plug Power Sup­ply Kit
> HP iLO Advanced includ­ing 1yr 24x7 Tech­ni­cal Sup­port and Updates
> Elec­tronic  License
> 4x HP 300GB 6G SAS 15K rpm LFF (3.5-inch) Dual Port Enter­prise 3yr
> War­ranty Hard Drive
> 2   HP DL380 G7 Intel® Xeon® X5680 (3.33GHz/6-core/130W/12MB) FIO Proces­sor 
> Kit
>
> With hyperthreading on, the machine has 24 cores, and handily
> translates pypy using cpython 2.7 in about half the time it typically
> takes.
>
> I am looking forward to handing this over to the team who will be
> running with the project from here on out - special thanks to Van, Bob
> Gobeille at HP and the entire OSU/OSL team.
>

Thanks for the continuing effort, Jesse, Van, and everyone!  This is
why Python is great and not just good.  I can't say thank you enough
to all the people that work so hard on tracker issues, documentation,
conferences, outreach, infrastructure, and all the pieces that make
Python more than just a good idea.  Not to discount the effort leading
up to the ideas, but the Python community realizes them through the
hard work of so many individuals willing to "sacrifice" for something
they love.

I've been following this list for a year and have not seen much
recognition, so it likely goes without saying (or I've just broken an
unwritten rule :), but sometimes it needs to be said out loud
regardless and sometimes loudly.  So thanks everyone!

-eric

> jesse
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Re: [Python-Dev] [Python-checkins] cpython (2.7): Fixup repr for dict_proxy objects.

2011-06-29 Thread Raymond Hettinger

On Jun 30, 2011, at 2:14 AM, Ezio Melotti wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 2:51 AM, raymond.hettinger 
>  wrote:
>  Fixup repr for dict_proxy objects.
> 
> 
> This was already fixed in a slightly different way in 3.x. 

The %R formatting code is not available in 2.x

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