[Python-Dev] standard libraries don't behave like standard 'libraries'

[Sriram Srinivasan]

I guess why every programming language has some kind of a 'standard
library' built in within it. In my view it must not be called as a 'library'
at all. what it does
is like a 'bunch of built-in programs ready-made to do stuff'.

Lets see what a 'library' does:

1. offers books for customers
 1.1 lets user select a book by genre, etc
 1.2 lets user to use different books of same genre, etc
 1.3 lets user to use books by same author, etc for different genre

2. keeps track of all the books + their genre
 2.1 first knows what all books it has at present
 2.2 when new book comes it is added to the particular shelf sorted by
genre,author,edition, etc.
 2.3 when books become old they are kept separately for future reference
 2.4 very old books can be sent to a museum/discarded

I guess no standard library does the minimum of this but wants to be
called a library.

As a python user I always wanted the standard library to have such
features so the user/developer decides to use what set of libraries he
want.

consider the libraries for 2.5 ,2.6, 3K are all available to the user,
the user selects what he wants with something like.

use library 2.5 or use library 2.6 etc.

The 2 main things that the library management interface has to do is
intra library management and inter library management.

intra library mgmt- consider books to be different libraries
(standard, commercial, private, hobby, etc)
inter library mgmt- consider books to be modules inside a library
( standard, commercial, private, hobby, etc)

if somehow we could accomplish this kind of mother of a all plugin/ad-
hoc system that is a real breakthrough.

Advantages:

1. new modules can be added to the stream quickly
2. let the user select what he want to do
3. modules (that interdepend on each other) can be packed into small
distribution and added to the stream quickly without waiting for new
releases
4. solution to problems like py 2.x and 3.x
5. users can be up to date
6. documentation becomes easy + elaborate to users
7. bug managing is easy too
8. more feed back
9. testing also becomes easy
10. many more , i don't know.. you have to find.

Python already has some thing like that __future__ stuff. but my
question is how many people know that? and how many use that? most of
them wait until old crust gets totally removed. that is bad for user
and python. that is why problems like py2.x py3.x originate. If there
is a newer book collection it must always be available at the library.
i must not go to another library to get that book.
I am not an expert, I am just another python learner. These are just my
views on the state of the standard libraries and to
make them state-of-the-art..! ;)

-- 
Regards,
Sriram.
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[Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Ludvig Ericson]

Why are there comments on PyPI? Moreso, why are there comments which I  
cannot control as a package author on my very own packages? That's  
just absurd.


It's *my* package, and so should be *my* choice if I want user input  
or not.


And ratings? I thought it was the Python Package Index, not the Python  
Anonymous Package Tribunal.


As I see it, there are only two ways to fix these misguided steps of  
development: throw them out, or make them opt-in settings.


The comments I simply do not understand. Why not instead provide a  
form for mailing the package author?
The ratings are just not what PyPI should be doing, is about, or what  
I signed up for.


-L
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Re: [Python-Dev] standard libraries don't behave like standard 'libraries'

[Michael Foord]

Sriram Srinivasan wrote:

I guess why every programming language has some kind of a 'standard
library' built in within it. In my view it must not be called as a 
'library' at all. what it does

is like a 'bunch of built-in programs ready-made to do stuff'.

Lets see what a 'library' does:

1. offers books for customers
 1.1 lets user select a book by genre, etc
 1.2 lets user to use different books of same genre, etc
 1.3 lets user to use books by same author, etc for different genre

2. keeps track of all the books + their genre
 2.1 first knows what all books it has at present
 2.2 when new book comes it is added to the particular shelf sorted by 
genre,author,edition, etc.

 2.3 when books become old they are kept separately for future reference
 2.4 very old books can be sent to a museum/discarded

I guess no standard library does the minimum of this but wants to be
called a library.



I don't really understand your requirements, but it sound like you want 
a package management system. The standard library just provides a 
standard set of tools (it is the books not the book management system - 
although part of what you want is in the standard library in the form of 
distutils which is currently receiving a radical overhaul).


You should look at Distribute and virtualenv, which gets you pretty much 
what you are suggesting (as far as I can tell):


   http://pypi.python.org/pypi/virtualenv
   http://pypi.python.org/pypi/distribute

All the best,

Michael Foord



As a python user I always wanted the standard library to have such
features so the user/developer decides to use what set of libraries he
want.

consider the libraries for 2.5 ,2.6, 3K are all available to the user,
the user selects what he wants with something like.

use library 2.5 or use library 2.6 etc.

The 2 main things that the library management interface has to do is
intra library management and inter library management.

intra library mgmt- consider books to be different libraries
(standard, commercial, private, hobby, etc)
inter library mgmt- consider books to be modules inside a library
( standard, commercial, private, hobby, etc)

if somehow we could accomplish this kind of mother of a all plugin/ad-
hoc system that is a real breakthrough.

Advantages:

1. new modules can be added to the stream quickly
2. let the user select what he want to do
3. modules (that interdepend on each other) can be packed into small
distribution and added to the stream quickly without waiting for new
releases
4. solution to problems like py 2.x and 3.x
5. users can be up to date
6. documentation becomes easy + elaborate to users
7. bug managing is easy too
8. more feed back
9. testing also becomes easy
10. many more , i don't know.. you have to find.

Python already has some thing like that __future__ stuff. but my
question is how many people know that? and how many use that? most of
them wait until old crust gets totally removed. that is bad for user
and python. that is why problems like py2.x py3.x originate. If there
is a newer book collection it must always be available at the library.
i must not go to another library to get that book.

I am not an expert, I am just another python learner. These are just 
my views on the state of the standard libraries and to

make them state-of-the-art..! ;)

--
Regards,
Sriram.


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Re: [Python-Dev] standard libraries don't behave like standard 'libraries'

[Sriram Srinivasan]

>
> I don't really understand your requirements, but it sound like you want a
> package management system. The standard library just provides a standard set
> of tools (it is the books not the book management system - although part of
> what you want is in the standard library in the form of distutils which is
> currently receiving a radical overhaul).
>
> You should look at Distribute and virtualenv, which gets you pretty much
> what you are suggesting (as far as I can tell):
>
>   http://pypi.python.org/pypi/virtualenv
>   http://pypi.python.org/pypi/distribute
>
> All the best,
>
> Michael Foord
>


I don't know if you have used
Dev-C++. It has a 'package
management' mechanism for the standard libraries.
please see the http://devpaks.org/ webpage where all the packaged libraries
are stored.

In python we have the PyPI which is equivalent to the
http://devpacks.orgbut in PyPI the packages are all user made
applications.
What I want is similar to PyPI but for the python standard libraries, so
that they (libraries) are as add-on as possible.

I guess you understand what I am thinking... and do pardon my english too..

-- 

Regards,
Sriram.
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Re: [Python-Dev] standard libraries don't behave like standard 'libraries'

[Ulrich Eckhardt]

On Thursday 12 November 2009, Sriram Srinivasan wrote:
> I don't know if you have used Dev-C++. It has a 'package management'
> mechanism for the standard libraries.

I disagree. It has a package management system for libraries, not for the 
standard libraries. The point is that the Python standard library is supplied 
as part of Python itself, as is e.g. the C++ standard library as part of a 
C++ compiler.

> In python we have the PyPI which is equivalent to the
> http://devpacks.org but in PyPI the packages are all user made
> applications.

...as in devpacks.org. Please scroll down on that page and read the warning 
that mentions than any person can upload a package possibly containing 
malware or broken code or whatever.

> What I want is similar to PyPI but for the python standard libraries, so
> that they (libraries) are as add-on as possible.

So, you want to make libs that are currently part of the standard library 
external libs available via PyPI? If that is what you want, it would be 
helpful if you provided a reason and also which libraries you're talking 
about.

Uli

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Re: [Python-Dev] standard libraries don't behave like standard 'libraries'

[Sriram Srinivasan]

> I disagree. It has a package management system for libraries, not for the
> standard libraries. The point is that the Python standard library is
> supplied
> as part of Python itself, as is e.g. the C++ standard library as part of a
> C++ compiler.
>
>
standard libraries i meant the standard libraries used.
and what i asked for is for(in python) both the standard-libraries and the
standard libraries used.
c the term (intra and inter library management) which includes the default
standard libraries and other standard libraries


>
> ...as in devpacks.org. Please scroll down on that page and read the
> warning
> that mentions than any person can upload a package possibly containing
> malware or broken code or whatever.
>
>
if you talk about security then nothing is secure for sure!
in PyPI ppl can upload their application as egg.

what if there is another site where only eggs of python.org containing
add-on standard libraries are distributed
 and noone is allowed to upload stuff except the python.org or PSF.

>
> So, you want to make libs that are currently part of the standard library
> external libs available via PyPI? If that is what you want, it would be
> helpful if you provided a reason and also which libraries you're talking
> about.
>
>
>
Not exactly via PyPI but something similar to it.
and don't compare C++ with python. both have their own + & -

-- 

Regards,
Sriram.
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Re: [Python-Dev] standard libraries don't behave like standard 'libraries'

[Matthew Wilkes]

On 2009-11-12, at 1136, Sriram Srinivasan wrote:


standard libraries i meant the standard libraries used.
and what i asked for is for(in python) both the standard-libraries  
and the standard libraries used.
c the term (intra and inter library management) which includes the  
default standard libraries and other standard libraries


I don't think you're using the correct terminology.  The standard  
library is what is shipped with the interpreter.  It's the only thing  
that's common between all users of that interpreter, i.e. it's standard.


what if there is another site where only eggs of python.org  
containing add-on standard libraries are distributed

 and noone is allowed to upload stuff except the python.org or PSF.


The PSF does not maintain add-on libraries, nor can it make guarantees  
about other add-ons libraries.


So, you want to make libs that are currently part of the standard  
library

external libs available via PyPI?

Not exactly via PyPI but something similar to it.


Again, why?


and don't compare C++ with python. both have their own + & -


Frankly, comparing and contrasting with other languages is very  
useful, I have little to no idea what you're talking about, and doubt  
it's got anything to do with the development of the Python language.


Matthew

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Re: [Python-Dev] standard libraries don't behave like standard 'libraries'

[Sriram Srinivasan]

ok let me make it more clear..
forget how you use python now.. i am talking about __futuristic__
python programming.

these are just my ideas.. more over i can say imaginations.
there is no more python2.x or python3.x or python y.x releases. there
is only updates of python and standard library say 1.1.5 and 1.1.6.
let the difference be an old xml library updated with a new regex
support.

i am coding my program now.
i want my application to be compatible with 1.1.5 library

use library 1.1.5
import blah form blahblah
...
...

i cannot use regex feature of xml in this application
i then update my library in the evening
now both the libraries are present in my system.
now i try using the new feature

use library 1.1.6 #thats all now i get all features
import blah from blahblah
...
...

-- 

Regards,
Sriram.
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Re: [Python-Dev] standard libraries don't behave like standard 'libraries'

[Matthew Wilkes]

Oh, I see.


use library 1.1.5


versus


use library 1.1.6 #thats all now i get all features


That's part of pkg_resources.  It looks like this:

pkg_resources.require("mylibrary==1.1.6")
import mylibrary

There are plenty of other ways to manage this, most people use systems  
like virtualenv or buildout, but that's a discussion for the normal  
python mailing list, not the development one.


Hope that helps,

Matt
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Re: [Python-Dev] standard libraries don't behave like standard 'libraries'

[Nick Coghlan]

Matthew Wilkes wrote:
> There are plenty of other ways to manage this, most people use systems
> like virtualenv or buildout, but that's a discussion for the normal
> python mailing list, not the development one.

Indeed. Please take this to python-list (it isn't even a coherent enough
suggestion for python-ideas at this point - there are way too many
mistaken assumptions and/or unconventional uses of terminology)

Regards,
Nick.

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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[exarkun]

On 09:44 am, lud...@lericson.se wrote:
Why are there comments on PyPI? Moreso, why are there comments which I 
cannot control as a package author on my very own packages? That's 
just absurd.


It's *my* package, and so should be *my* choice if I want user input 
or not.


And ratings? I thought it was the Python Package Index, not the Python 
Anonymous Package Tribunal.


As I see it, there are only two ways to fix these misguided steps of 
development: throw them out, or make them opt-in settings.


The comments I simply do not understand. Why not instead provide a 
form for mailing the package author?
The ratings are just not what PyPI should be doing, is about, or what 
I signed up for.


See the various catalog-sig threads on this topic.

Jean-Paul
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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 08:44:32 pm Ludvig Ericson wrote:
> Why are there comments on PyPI? Moreso, why are there comments which
> I cannot control as a package author on my very own packages? That's
> just absurd.

No, what's absurd is thinking that the act of publishing software 
somehow gives you the right to demand control over what others say 
about your software.

I don't suppose that this rant of yours has something to do with the 
comment posted today?

http://pypi.python.org/pypi/spypam/1.0




-- 
Steven D'Aprano
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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Jesse Noller]

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 8:38 AM, Steven D'Aprano  wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 08:44:32 pm Ludvig Ericson wrote:
>> Why are there comments on PyPI? Moreso, why are there comments which
>> I cannot control as a package author on my very own packages? That's
>> just absurd.
>
> No, what's absurd is thinking that the act of publishing software
> somehow gives you the right to demand control over what others say
> about your software.
>
> I don't suppose that this rant of yours has something to do with the
> comment posted today?

Frankly, I agree with him. As implemented, I *and others* think this
is broken. I've taken the stance of not publishing things to PyPi
until A> I find the time to contribute to make it better or B> It
changes.

jesse
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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Barry Warsaw]

On Nov 12, 2009, at 8:06 AM, Jesse Noller wrote:


Frankly, I agree with him. As implemented, I *and others* think this
is broken. I've taken the stance of not publishing things to PyPi
until A> I find the time to contribute to make it better or B> It
changes.


That's distressing.  For better or worse PyPI is the central  
repository of 3rd party packages.  It should be easy, desirable, fun  
and socially encouraged to get your packages there.


I personally think a ratings system can be useful, but you should be  
able to opt-out of it if you want.  Or just write such awesome  
software that the bogus bad reviews will be buried by an avalanche of  
kudos.


-Barry



PGP.sig
Description: This is a digitally signed message part
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Re: [Python-Dev] standard libraries don't behave like standard 'libraries'

[Lennart Regebro]

2009/11/12 Sriram Srinivasan :
> In python we have the PyPI which is equivalent to the http://devpacks.org
> but in PyPI the packages are all user made applications.
> What I want is similar to PyPI but for the python standard libraries, so
> that they (libraries) are as add-on as possible.

They are. The mechanism for deciding if you want to use them is called
"importing".

Now of you don't want them installed, the easiest is to remove the
ones you don't want. This is useful on embedded systems, etc, but not
generally useful otehrwise.

-- 
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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Jason Baker]

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 8:06 AM, Jesse Noller  wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 8:38 AM, Steven D'Aprano  wrote:
>> On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 08:44:32 pm Ludvig Ericson wrote:
>>> Why are there comments on PyPI? Moreso, why are there comments which
>>> I cannot control as a package author on my very own packages? That's
>>> just absurd.
>>
>> No, what's absurd is thinking that the act of publishing software
>> somehow gives you the right to demand control over what others say
>> about your software.
>>
>> I don't suppose that this rant of yours has something to do with the
>> comment posted today?
>
> Frankly, I agree with him. As implemented, I *and others* think this
> is broken. I've taken the stance of not publishing things to PyPi
> until A> I find the time to contribute to make it better or B> It
> changes.

I'm not sure I see the utility of ratings, but I think comments can be
useful as long as they don't carry over from release to release.  For
instance, suppose there's a bug in my package and someone leaves a
comment about it.  I don't want that comment still hanging around 3
years after I've already fixed the bug.
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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Jesse Noller]

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 9:25 AM, Barry Warsaw  wrote:
> On Nov 12, 2009, at 8:06 AM, Jesse Noller wrote:
>
>> Frankly, I agree with him. As implemented, I *and others* think this
>> is broken. I've taken the stance of not publishing things to PyPi
>> until A> I find the time to contribute to make it better or B> It
>> changes.
>
> That's distressing.  For better or worse PyPI is the central repository of
> 3rd party packages.  It should be easy, desirable, fun and socially
> encouraged to get your packages there.
>
> I personally think a ratings system can be useful, but you should be able to
> opt-out of it if you want.  Or just write such awesome software that the
> bogus bad reviews will be buried by an avalanche of kudos.
>
> -Barry

I completely and totally agree with you. That's why it's a
self-imposed thing for me, I want to help, but don't have the time. In
the same breath, I don't want to support it as-is.

PyPI isn't a place to file bugs, complain something didn't work for
you if you didn't even have the common decency in some cases to email
them. Being unable, as an author, to remove, moderate, or even respond
to issues there bothers me quite a bit.

Heck, I would even be for requiring packages have a mailing list and /
or bug tracker to even upload, rather than comments. At least then the
authors or maintainers have a fighting chance.
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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Lisandro Dalcin]

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 12:32 PM, Jesse Noller  wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 9:25 AM, Barry Warsaw  wrote:
>> On Nov 12, 2009, at 8:06 AM, Jesse Noller wrote:
>>
>>> Frankly, I agree with him. As implemented, I *and others* think this
>>> is broken. I've taken the stance of not publishing things to PyPi
>>> until A> I find the time to contribute to make it better or B> It
>>> changes.
>>
>> That's distressing.  For better or worse PyPI is the central repository of
>> 3rd party packages.  It should be easy, desirable, fun and socially
>> encouraged to get your packages there.
>>
>
> PyPI isn't a place to file bugs, complain something didn't work for
> you if you didn't even have the common decency in some cases to email
> them. Being unable, as an author, to remove, moderate, or even respond
> to issues there bothers me quite a bit.
>

I also agree with you. I do not see the point to make PyPI yet another
social network.



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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[exarkun]

On 03:01 pm, dalc...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 12:32 PM, Jesse Noller  
wrote:
On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 9:25 AM, Barry Warsaw  
wrote:

On Nov 12, 2009, at 8:06 AM, Jesse Noller wrote:

Frankly, I agree with him. As implemented, I *and others* think this
is broken. I've taken the stance of not publishing things to PyPi
until A> I find the time to contribute to make it better or B> It
changes.


That's distressing.  For better or worse PyPI is the central 
repository of

3rd party packages. �It should be easy, desirable, fun and socially
encouraged to get your packages there.


PyPI isn't a place to file bugs, complain something didn't work for
you if you didn't even have the common decency in some cases to email
them. Being unable, as an author, to remove, moderate, or even respond
to issues there bothers me quite a bit.


I also agree with you. I do not see the point to make PyPI yet another
social network.


+1

Jean-Paul
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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Olemis Lang]

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 8:38 AM, Steven D'Aprano  wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 08:44:32 pm Ludvig Ericson wrote:
>> Why are there comments on PyPI? Moreso, why are there comments which
>> I cannot control as a package author on my very own packages? That's
>> just absurd.
>
> No, what's absurd is thinking that the act of publishing software
> somehow gives you the right to demand control over what others say
> about your software.
>

Both of you are right , but I agree with Mr. Ludvig Ericson opinion (>
90%). The package author probably has no «right to demand control over
what others say about her/his software» , but he has the right to
decide where such comments should be posted and also if he/she wants
to focus on (opinions | comments | ... ) or more useful feedback like
issues or support request .

For example, in my case, I prefer to have either custom ticket types
in the project's Trac environment or a plugin to receive this kind of
feedback *in the project's site* . IMHO PyPI is not the right place .
/me probably wrong

IMO -0.1 for votes and comments in PyPI and therefore

+1 for including settings to let coders decide (somehow ;o) whether to
allow this or not

-- 
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Olemis.

Blog ES: http://simelo-es.blogspot.com/
Blog EN: http://simelo-en.blogspot.com/

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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Olemis Lang]

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 9:32 AM, Jesse Noller  wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 9:25 AM, Barry Warsaw  wrote:
>> On Nov 12, 2009, at 8:06 AM, Jesse Noller wrote:
>>
>>> Frankly, I agree with him. As implemented, I *and others* think this
>>> is broken. I've taken the stance of not publishing things to PyPi
>>> until A> I find the time to contribute to make it better or B> It
>>> changes.
>>
>> That's distressing.  For better or worse PyPI is the central repository of
>> 3rd party packages.  It should be easy, desirable, fun and socially
>> encouraged to get your packages there.
>>
>> I personally think a ratings system can be useful, but you should be able to
>> opt-out of it if you want.  Or just write such awesome software that the
>> bogus bad reviews will be buried by an avalanche of kudos.
>>
>> -Barry
>
> I completely and totally agree with you. That's why it's a
> self-imposed thing for me, I want to help, but don't have the time. In
> the same breath, I don't want to support it as-is.
>
> PyPI isn't a place to file bugs, complain something didn't work for
> you if you didn't even have the common decency in some cases to email
> them. Being unable, as an author, to remove, moderate, or even respond
> to issues there bothers me quite a bit.
>

+1

> Heck, I would even be for requiring packages have a mailing list and /
> or bug tracker to even upload, rather than comments. At least then the
> authors or maintainers have a fighting chance.
>

Intention = suggestion + crazy idea => for a better PyPI

But there's probably a chance to display what people said in the
project's site . If PyPI would be able to retrieve that information
from the project's site (e.g. that'd be possible for Trac and other
PMS via RPC ) and also some of the aforementioned (Jesse's) issues
might be solved with added benefits (data being cached and discarded
from time to time, better performance, less DB space, ...) or not .

IMO, what's missing in my reasoning is whether there is a common std
API for e.g. issues . But there's a popular API for wikis (i.e.
WikiRPC) so probably there's something std (I repeat, that I don't
know :-/ ) out there . At least Trac's TicketRPC is very simple (i.e.
two simple methods) and extensible (e.g. custom ticket fields ;o)

PS: I don't really know the exact details of the impl of votes and
comments in PyPI.

-- 
Regards,

Olemis.

Blog ES: http://simelo-es.blogspot.com/
Blog EN: http://simelo-en.blogspot.com/

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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Guido van Rossum]

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 5:38 AM, Steven D'Aprano  wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 08:44:32 pm Ludvig Ericson wrote:
>> Why are there comments on PyPI? Moreso, why are there comments which
>> I cannot control as a package author on my very own packages? That's
>> just absurd.
>
> No, what's absurd is thinking that the act of publishing software
> somehow gives you the right to demand control over what others say
> about your software.
>
> I don't suppose that this rant of yours has something to do with the
> comment posted today?
>
> http://pypi.python.org/pypi/spypam/1.0

If you were to ask me, the people arguing against ratings and user
comments are fighting a losing battle. If they had an iPhone or
Android phone (or some other device with an "app store" kind of place
to find downloads) they'd know the value (for prospective downloaders)
of ratings and comments. Now, I think PyPI can use some (perhaps a lot
of) improvement in the details of how it works, e.g. there should be a
way to flag inappropriate messages (and users who post many
inappropriate messages) and the software author should be able to talk
back, but the general idea is here and won't go away by wishing it
away.

-- 
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Antoine Pitrou]

Guido van Rossum  python.org> writes:
> 
> If you were to ask me, the people arguing against ratings and user
> comments are fighting a losing battle. If they had an iPhone or
> Android phone (or some other device with an "app store" kind of place
> to find downloads) they'd know the value (for prospective downloaders)
> of ratings and comments. Now, I think PyPI can use some (perhaps a lot
> of) improvement in the details of how it works, e.g. there should be a
> way to flag inappropriate messages (and users who post many
> inappropriate messages) and the software author should be able to talk
> back, but the general idea is here and won't go away by wishing it
> away.

Perhaps the suggestions and appreciations about the PyPI ratings and comment
system can go to http://pypi.python.org/pypi/pypi/ :-)

(more seriously, the problem with a comment system is that once it takes off,
you need a whole array of functionalities to maintain a good S/N ratio. Just
allowing people to "comment" without any sort of moderation, filtering or
community building doesn't work)

Regards

Antoine.


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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Jesse Noller]

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 11:02 AM, Guido van Rossum  wrote:

> If you were to ask me, the people arguing against ratings and user
> comments are fighting a losing battle. If they had an iPhone or
> Android phone (or some other device with an "app store" kind of place
> to find downloads) they'd know the value (for prospective downloaders)
> of ratings and comments. Now, I think PyPI can use some (perhaps a lot
> of) improvement in the details of how it works, e.g. there should be a
> way to flag inappropriate messages (and users who post many
> inappropriate messages) and the software author should be able to talk
> back, but the general idea is here and won't go away by wishing it
> away.
>
> --
> --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)


I don't want us to impersonate the mindless, sub-useful drivel found
in App store/YouTube/etc comments 99% of the time or the broken "5
star ratings" systems, etc. It's too easy to game.

I'm not arguing something like this *shouldn't* exist; but that the
current implementation is a far cry from something actually *good and
useful*. If we want forums, let's put in forums. If we want a real
review system, then do that.

But before we even did those; why not have mandatory links for entries
to bug trackers, mailing lists, source repositories, etc? I'm saying
saying this doesn't seem well thought out, and the current
implementation is broken by design. Of course, as I said earlier;
since I don't have time to patch it; I'll simply just not participate.

jesse
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Re: [Python-Dev] Is this a bug of the HTMLParser?

[Zhang Chiyuan]

filed: http://bugs.python.org/issue7311

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 12:24 AM, Michael Foord
wrote:

> Hello Zhang Chiyuan,
>
> Can you file a bug on the Python issue tracker please:
>
>   http://bugs.python.org
>
> Thanks
>
> Michael Foord
>
> Zhang Chiyuan wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I'm using BeautifulSoup to parsing an HTML page and find it refused to
>> parse the page. By looking at the backtrace, I found it is a problem
>> with the python built-in HTMLParser.py. In fact, the web page I'm
>> parsing is with some Chinese characters. there is a tag like > src=/foo/bar.png alt=中文> , note this is legacy html page where the
>> attributes are not quoted. However, the regexp defined in
>> HTMLParser.py is :
>>
>>  attrfind = re.compile(
>> r'\s*([a-zA-Z_][-.:a-zA-Z_0-9]*)(\s*=\s*'
>> r'(\'[^\']*\'|"[^"]*"|[-a-zA-Z0-9./,:;+*%?!&$\(\)_...@]*))?')
>>
>> Note that the Chinese character (also any other non-english
>> characters), so it fire an error parsing this. I'm not sure whether
>> the HTML standard allow un-quoted non-ASCII characters in the
>> attributes. If it allows, this seems to be a bug. and the regexp to
>> better be [^>\s] IMHO.
>>
>> BTW: It seems something like :
>>
>> 
>> var st = "> 
>>
>> can not be parsed. :-/
>>
>> --
>> pluskid
>> http://blog.pluskid.org
>> ___
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>>
>
>
> --
> http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/
>
>


-- 
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http://blog.pluskid.org
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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Jason Baker]

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 10:19 AM, Antoine Pitrou  wrote:
> (more seriously, the problem with a comment system is that once it takes off,
> you need a whole array of functionalities to maintain a good S/N ratio. Just
> allowing people to "comment" without any sort of moderation, filtering or
> community building doesn't work)

Why not allow ratings on comments as well?
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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[David Stanek]

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 9:06 AM, Jesse Noller  wrote:

> On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 8:38 AM, Steven D'Aprano 
> wrote:
> > On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 08:44:32 pm Ludvig Ericson wrote:
> >> Why are there comments on PyPI? Moreso, why are there comments which
> >> I cannot control as a package author on my very own packages? That's
> >> just absurd.
> >
> > No, what's absurd is thinking that the act of publishing software
> > somehow gives you the right to demand control over what others say
> > about your software.
> >
> > I don't suppose that this rant of yours has something to do with the
> > comment posted today?
>
> Frankly, I agree with him. As implemented, I *and others* think this
> is broken. I've taken the stance of not publishing things to PyPi
> until A> I find the time to contribute to make it better or B> It
> changes.
>

Where is the code for PyPi? I took a quick look and didn't turn up anything.

-- 
David
blog: http://www.traceback.org
twitter: http://twitter.com/dstanek
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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Jacob Kaplan-Moss]

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 11:02 AM, David Stanek  wrote:
> Where is the code for PyPi? I took a quick look and didn't turn up anything.

https://svn.python.org/packages/trunk/pypi/

I've already started on a patch to make comments an option that
package maintainers could turn on or off, but I don't want to waste
any more time fighting this code unless I have some assurance it'll be
checked in.

Jacob
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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Masklinn]

On 12 Nov 2009, at 17:31 , Jesse Noller wrote:
> 
> But before we even did those; why not have mandatory links for entries
> to bug trackers, mailing lists, source repositories, etc? I'm saying
> saying this doesn't seem well thought out, and the current
> implementation is broken by design. Of course, as I said earlier;
> since I don't have time to patch it; I'll simply just not participate.
I think having links to those is a very good idea and more important
than a comment/notation system. They shouldn't be mandatory though, not
every library has a mailing list, or even a (public anyway) bug tracker.

Giving users and easy way to contact the author would be a must as well
("package index owner" and "package index maintainer" should link to
the users's profiles, and users should be able to setup contact
informations e.g. a mail address or a website). See how search.cpan
does it, the information is worth a lot to users. Currently, finding
how to send feedback to a package owner usually requires wading through
the description text itself, which in some cases (e.g. distribute)
amounts to pages of document.

On 12 Nov 2009, at 17:31 , Jesse Noller wrote:
> I don't want us to impersonate the mindless, sub-useful drivel found
> in App store/YouTube/etc comments 99% of the time or the broken "5
> star ratings" systems, etc. It's too easy to game.
I think I read a paper on that subject a short time ago (but can't
seem to find it right now), basically saying 5-star systems weren't
very useful, a simple +1/0/-1 was just as good (if not better) and
0/+1 worked as well.
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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Arc Riley]

Nobody is claiming right to censor what people say about their software.

This is the Internet.  There are blogs.  Google and other search engines
find blogs quickly, and people who agree with the viewpoints expressed link
to them thus making the blog postings more visible.  There are countless
other social networks and outlets for people to flame and slander (or praise
and promote, in a much less common case) software.

It would be more useful to provide a PyPI mechanism to publish a link to
file bugs on the project's own website and leave project ratings the work of
other sites such as Ohloh.

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 8:38 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

>
> No, what's absurd is thinking that the act of publishing software
> somehow gives you the right to demand control over what others say
> about your software.
>
>
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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Raymond Hettinger]

[Jacob Kaplan-Moss]

I've already started on a patch to make comments an option that
package maintainers could turn on or off, but I don't want to waste
any more time fighting this code unless I have some assurance it'll be
checked in.


I support your efforts.


Raymond
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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[David Stanek]

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 12:06 PM, Jacob Kaplan-Moss wrote:

> On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 11:02 AM, David Stanek 
> wrote:
> > Where is the code for PyPi? I took a quick look and didn't turn up
> anything.
>
> https://svn.python.org/packages/trunk/pypi/
>
> I've already started on a patch to make comments an option that
> package maintainers could turn on or off, but I don't want to waste
> any more time fighting this code unless I have some assurance it'll be
> checked in.
>

Thanks. If I have some spare time I'm going take a look. Should I post
patches to the regular Python bug tracker?

-- 
David
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[Python-Dev] FYI: LWN article on 2.x, 3.x, and the moratorium

[A.M. Kuchling]

FYI: I've written an article for Linux Weekly News on the moratorium &
related issues.

The article is subscribers-only for a week, but here's a free link:

http://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/361266/ef88bdbed5369800/

If you find this sort of thing useful/interesting, please consider
subscribing to LWN.

--amk
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Re: [Python-Dev] FYI: LWN article on 2.x, 3.x, and the moratorium

[Oleg Broytman]

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 12:40:10PM -0500, A.M. Kuchling wrote:
> FYI: I've written an article for Linux Weekly News on the moratorium &
> related issues.
> 
> The article is subscribers-only for a week, but here's a free link:
> 
> http://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/361266/ef88bdbed5369800/
> 
> If you find this sort of thing useful/interesting, please consider
> subscribing to LWN.

   +1. I've found LWN the best magazine (among both printed and electronic
magazines) in its area, and despite the fact its articles are freed after a
week (and many articles are published free from the very beginning) I
subscribed to it to support the magazine ("Patronize" business model).
   They say their site is written in Python using Quixote as the web
framework; they promised to publish the code but didn't publish it yet -
the fact I consider the biggest drawback of the site.

Oleg.
-- 
 Oleg Broytmanhttp://phd.pp.ru/p...@phd.pp.ru
   Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN.
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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Terry Reedy]

Barry Warsaw wrote:

On Nov 12, 2009, at 8:06 AM, Jesse Noller wrote:


Frankly, I agree with him. As implemented, I *and others* think this
is broken. I've taken the stance of not publishing things to PyPi
until A> I find the time to contribute to make it better or B> It
changes.


That's distressing.  For better or worse PyPI is the central repository 
of 3rd party packages.  It should be easy, desirable, fun and socially 
encouraged to get your packages there.


I think his point is that a new book announcement servive is different 
from a book review and rating service.  And that mixing the two is 
'socially discouraging'. I do not know what the answer is


I personally think a ratings system can be useful, but you should be 
able to opt-out of it if you want.  Or just write such awesome software 
that the bogus bad reviews will be buried by an avalanche of kudos.


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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Guido van Rossum]

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 10:30 AM, Terry Reedy  wrote:
> Barry Warsaw wrote:
>>
>> On Nov 12, 2009, at 8:06 AM, Jesse Noller wrote:
>>
>>> Frankly, I agree with him. As implemented, I *and others* think this
>>> is broken. I've taken the stance of not publishing things to PyPi
>>> until A> I find the time to contribute to make it better or B> It
>>> changes.
>>
>> That's distressing.  For better or worse PyPI is the central repository of
>> 3rd party packages.  It should be easy, desirable, fun and socially
>> encouraged to get your packages there.
>
> I think his point is that a new book announcement servive is different from
> a book review and rating service.  And that mixing the two is 'socially
> discouraging'. I do not know what the answer is

I would say that publishers disagree -- they seem to really like
adding "social" stuff to their book announcement service. See e.g.
Amazon (which combines all functions: announcement/promotion,
ordering/download, review/comments/rate/popularity).

I agree that creating a good social app is not easy, and if we can't
improve the social app embedded in PyPI quickly enough, we should at
least give authors the option to disable comments. Of course, as a
user, I might not trust a module that has no reviews or ratings.

-- 
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Olemis Lang]

Intention = precision => for a better PyPI

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 1:54 PM, Guido van Rossum  wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 10:30 AM, Terry Reedy  wrote:
>> Barry Warsaw wrote:
>>>
>>> On Nov 12, 2009, at 8:06 AM, Jesse Noller wrote:
>>>
 Frankly, I agree with him. As implemented, I *and others* think this
 is broken. I've taken the stance of not publishing things to PyPi
 until A> I find the time to contribute to make it better or B> It
 changes.
>>>
>>> That's distressing.  For better or worse PyPI is the central repository of
>>> 3rd party packages.  It should be easy, desirable, fun and socially
>>> encouraged to get your packages there.
>>
>> I think his point is that a new book announcement servive is different from
>> a book review and rating service.  And that mixing the two is 'socially
>> discouraging'. I do not know what the answer is
>
> I would say that publishers disagree -- they seem to really like
> adding "social" stuff to their book announcement service. See e.g.
> Amazon (which combines all functions: announcement/promotion,
> ordering/download, review/comments/rate/popularity).
>

... but (most) book writers don't use an issue tracker to manage and
get *useful* feedback from their readers (I know there are exceptions
to the rule ;o) and fix the book chapters or anything else . Besides
there are some differences between software and books and the way both
of them are created, used and enhanced . What I don't like (today)
about comments + votes is that I have to do the same thing in two
different places (especially because one of the sources is *very*
noisy). If there's a way to integrate both and «reduce» the noise ,
that would be nice .

;o)

> I agree that creating a good social app is not easy, and if we can't
> improve the social app embedded in PyPI quickly enough, we should at
> least give authors the option to disable comments.

+1

> Of course, as a
> user, I might not trust a module that has no reviews or ratings.
>

Not really sure. For example, if a user access the page for setuptools
(just an example ;o) soon she/he will realize that other people use it
very often and also has a high kwalitee score, therefore it is quite
unlikely that such package be «irrelevant» or «untrusted» (this is
IMHO) .

-- 
Regards,

Olemis.

Blog ES: http://simelo-es.blogspot.com/
Blog EN: http://simelo-en.blogspot.com/

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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Jesse Noller]

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 1:54 PM, Guido van Rossum  wrote:

>
> I would say that publishers disagree -- they seem to really like
> adding "social" stuff to their book announcement service. See e.g.
> Amazon (which combines all functions: announcement/promotion,
> ordering/download, review/comments/rate/popularity).
>
> I agree that creating a good social app is not easy, and if we can't
> improve the social app embedded in PyPI quickly enough, we should at
> least give authors the option to disable comments. Of course, as a
> user, I might not trust a module that has no reviews or ratings.
>
> --
> --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)


I'd not trust a package without a bug tracker, mailing list or link to
the source a lot sooner than something without comments and ratings.
Especially with ratings like milk and wolf shirts get:

http://www.amazon.com/Tuscan-Whole-Milk-Gallon-128/dp/B00032G1S0/ref=sr_1_13?ie=UTF8&s=grocery&qid=1258053581&sr=1-13

http://www.amazon.com/Mountain-Mens-Short-Sleeve-Large/dp/B001VMZFPQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=apparel&qid=1258053663&sr=8-1

What about astroturfing? What's to stop me from writing a script to
create a pile of accounts and then bumping packages I like with
glowing ratings and reviews? Who is going to be the moderator, and how
to decide between spam, incorrect comment, etc?
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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Guido van Rossum]

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 11:25 AM, Jesse Noller  wrote:
> I'd not trust a package without a bug tracker, mailing list or link to
> the source a lot sooner than something without comments and ratings.

Yeah, but you're not exactly an average user. Most users don't know
how to use a bug tracker. Also, there's a large variety of packages on
PyPI. Not every developer has the same attitude, but they all live
happily together on PyPI. (Or did you want someone to start a separate
CPAN "for the rest of them" ? :-)

[...]
> What about astroturfing? What's to stop me from writing a script to
> create a pile of accounts and then bumping packages I like with
> glowing ratings and reviews? Who is going to be the moderator, and how
> to decide between spam, incorrect comment, etc?

Those are all hard problems, though all of them have at least partial
solutions in the other worlds (Amazon, Wikipedia, Apple app store,
etc.). Maybe there should be a standard "social app" that you can just
customize for a specific purpose. Sounds like an interesting project,
actually.

-- 
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Jesse Noller]

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 2:30 PM, Guido van Rossum  wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 11:25 AM, Jesse Noller  wrote:
>> I'd not trust a package without a bug tracker, mailing list or link to
>> the source a lot sooner than something without comments and ratings.
>
> Yeah, but you're not exactly an average user. Most users don't know
> how to use a bug tracker. Also, there's a large variety of packages on
> PyPI. Not every developer has the same attitude, but they all live
> happily together on PyPI. (Or did you want someone to start a separate
> CPAN "for the rest of them" ? :-)

True, but if you make entries for them mandatory (bug trackers,
source, etc), and you encourage users to use them, you begin being to
be the change you want to be, which is making PyPi *less* of an "app
store" where the consumer doesn't collaborate with the authors.

Or maybe rather than *putting* this stuff into Pypi; pypi allows
plugins to allow authors to link in RSS feeds to their bug trackers,
wiki streams, what have you.

I think everyone can co exist, just not one at the cost of another ;)

> [...]
>> What about astroturfing? What's to stop me from writing a script to
>> create a pile of accounts and then bumping packages I like with
>> glowing ratings and reviews? Who is going to be the moderator, and how
>> to decide between spam, incorrect comment, etc?
>
> Those are all hard problems, though all of them have at least partial
> solutions in the other worlds (Amazon, Wikipedia, Apple app store,
> etc.). Maybe there should be a standard "social app" that you can just
> customize for a specific purpose. Sounds like an interesting project,
> actually.

Yup, reddit's source is out there, and I think there's lots of
possibilities, I guess for me I'd rather have nothing than 50% of
something that doesn't account for the various problems and the pretty
valid opinions of authors and maintainers.

jesse
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Re: [Python-Dev] standard libraries don't behave like standard 'libraries'

[Martin v. Löwis]

> I am not an expert, I am just another python learner. These are just my
> views on the state of the standard libraries and to
> make them state-of-the-art..! ;)

If I understand correctly, you want the (current) standard library to be
separated from the Python implementation, and available separately.

Interestingly enough, people are very much split over whether that would
be a good thing or not. Some like it the way Python does, some dislike
it (and some quite strongly so).

In any case, many Python users consider it a good thing that it comes
"with batteries included", ie. with no need to add extra stuff for many
tasks.

Some of the Python maintainers have recently started objecting to this
setup, asking that the standard library should be split into separate
packages that are released and distributed independent of Python. Others
of us feel strongly that such a change should not be made.

So don't expect any immediate change to happen.

Regards,
Martin
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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Martin v. Löwis]

> If you were to ask me, the people arguing against ratings and user
> comments are fighting a losing battle. If they had an iPhone or
> Android phone (or some other device with an "app store" kind of place
> to find downloads) they'd know the value (for prospective downloaders)
> of ratings and comments. Now, I think PyPI can use some (perhaps a lot
> of) improvement in the details of how it works, e.g. there should be a
> way to flag inappropriate messages (and users who post many
> inappropriate messages)

There is, although it's admittedly tedious: users can file a support
request (follow the link "Get Help").

> and the software author should be able to talk
> back

That is actually the case: the author *can* talk back.

> but the general idea is here and won't go away by wishing it
> away.

I'm going to take a poll RSN, and see what the majority of users
think (rather than their vocal fraction). Then we can see what to do
about it.

Regards,
Martin



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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Jacob Kaplan-Moss]

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 1:30 PM, Guido van Rossum  wrote:
> Yeah, but you're not exactly an average user. Most users don't know
> how to use a bug tracker.

But they do know how to use mailing lists. Or IRC chats. Or support forums.

Those places have (for many projects) tens, hundreds, or even
thousands of peers who are able and willing to help new users get
started. Only the package maintainers see comments on PyPI, meaning
we've got to deal with requests for support there manually.

This isn't academic; just this morning a user asked a question on
Django's PyPI listing that would have been better asked on any of the
support channels we provide. I have no way of directing him there
besides lamely commenting after the fact, and then it just seems like
I'm giving him the runaround.

Look, nobody's asking to kill the feature. We're asking to *make it
optional*, and to allow us to link to a more appropriate support forum
instead. Can you please explain to me what's wrong with that?

Jacob
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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Martin v. Löwis]

> (more seriously, the problem with a comment system is that once it takes off,
> you need a whole array of functionalities to maintain a good S/N ratio. Just
> allowing people to "comment" without any sort of moderation, filtering or
> community building doesn't work)

The current rate is roughly 1 comment per day (with peaks of 5
comments), so it takes of rather slowly.

Regards,
Martin
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Re: [Python-Dev] standard libraries don't behave like standard 'libraries'

[Georg Brandl]

Sriram Srinivasan schrieb:
> I guess why every programming language has some kind of a 'standard
> library' built in within it. In my view it must not be called as a
> 'library' at all. what it does
> is like a 'bunch of built-in programs ready-made to do stuff'.
> 
> Lets see what a 'library' does:
> 
> 1. offers books for customers
>  1.1 lets user select a book by genre, etc
>  1.2 lets user to use different books of same genre, etc
>  1.3 lets user to use books by same author, etc for different genre
> 
> 2. keeps track of all the books + their genre
>  2.1 first knows what all books it has at present
>  2.2 when new book comes it is added to the particular shelf sorted by
> genre,author,edition, etc..
>  2.3 when books become old they are kept separately for future reference
>  2.4 very old books can be sent to a museum/discarded
>
> I guess no standard library does the minimum of this but wants to be
> called a library.

I guess you're simply stretching the "library" metaphor far beyond its
usefulness :)

Georg

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Re: [Python-Dev] standard libraries don't behave like standard 'libraries'

[Jesse Noller]

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 2:38 PM, "Martin v. Löwis"  wrote:
>> I am not an expert, I am just another python learner. These are just my
>> views on the state of the standard libraries and to
>> make them state-of-the-art..! ;)
>
> If I understand correctly, you want the (current) standard library to be
> separated from the Python implementation, and available separately.
>
> Interestingly enough, people are very much split over whether that would
> be a good thing or not. Some like it the way Python does, some dislike
> it (and some quite strongly so).
>
> In any case, many Python users consider it a good thing that it comes
> "with batteries included", ie. with no need to add extra stuff for many
> tasks.
>
> Some of the Python maintainers have recently started objecting to this
> setup, asking that the standard library should be split into separate
> packages that are released and distributed independent of Python. Others
> of us feel strongly that such a change should not be made.
>
> So don't expect any immediate change to happen.
>
> Regards,
> Martin

Martin is correct; this came up on distutils-sig a month or so ago; I
proposed offering multiple downloads "with batteries" and "without
batteries (with the batteries on the side)". We decided as a group to
hold off on that until further in the future.

jesse
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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Guido van Rossum]

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 11:44 AM, "Martin v. Löwis"  wrote:
> I'm going to take a poll RSN, and see what the majority of users
> think (rather than their vocal fraction). Then we can see what to do
> about it.

Or (ironically) the vocal fraction can write scripts to stuff the ballot. :-)

-- 
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Guido van Rossum]

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 11:45 AM, Jacob Kaplan-Moss  wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 1:30 PM, Guido van Rossum  wrote:
>> Yeah, but you're not exactly an average user. Most users don't know
>> how to use a bug tracker.
>
> But they do know how to use mailing lists. Or IRC chats. Or support forums.
>
> Those places have (for many projects) tens, hundreds, or even
> thousands of peers who are able and willing to help new users get
> started. Only the package maintainers see comments on PyPI, meaning
> we've got to deal with requests for support there manually.
>
> This isn't academic; just this morning a user asked a question on
> Django's PyPI listing that would have been better asked on any of the
> support channels we provide. I have no way of directing him there
> besides lamely commenting after the fact, and then it just seems like
> I'm giving him the runaround.

Maybe that's an example of a user who doesn't know how to use those
support channels? I know I wouldn't bother with IRC even if it was the
only way to get in touch with users, I hate it with a vengeance.
(Though arguably I'm a special case -- whenever I show up everyone
goes "h, Guido is here." :-) And I might not want to sign up for a
mailing list for a casual question. And what exactly is a "forum"?

> Look, nobody's asking to kill the feature. We're asking to *make it
> optional*, and to allow us to link to a more appropriate support forum
> instead. Can you please explain to me what's wrong with that?

I already said it was fine to make it opt-out. What more do you want?

-- 
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Lisandro Dalcin]

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 5:46 PM, "Martin v. Löwis"  wrote:
>> (more seriously, the problem with a comment system is that once it takes off,
>> you need a whole array of functionalities to maintain a good S/N ratio. Just
>> allowing people to "comment" without any sort of moderation, filtering or
>> community building doesn't work)
>
> The current rate is roughly 1 comment per day (with peaks of 5
> comments), so it takes of rather slowly.
>

Until spammers decide to attack...


-- 
Lisandro Dalcín
---
Centro Internacional de Métodos Computacionales en Ingeniería (CIMEC)
Instituto de Desarrollo Tecnológico para la Industria Química (INTEC)
Consejo Nacional de Investigaciones Científicas y Técnicas (CONICET)
PTLC - Güemes 3450, (3000) Santa Fe, Argentina
Tel/Fax: +54-(0)342-451.1594
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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Olemis Lang]

Intention = personal opinion => for a better  PyPI

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 2:38 PM, Jesse Noller  wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 2:30 PM, Guido van Rossum  wrote:
>> On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 11:25 AM, Jesse Noller  wrote:
>>> I'd not trust a package without a bug tracker, mailing list or link to
>>> the source a lot sooner than something without comments and ratings.
>>
>> Yeah, but you're not exactly an average user. Most users don't know
>> how to use a bug tracker. Also, there's a large variety of packages on
>> PyPI. Not every developer has the same attitude, but they all live
>> happily together on PyPI. (Or did you want someone to start a separate
>> CPAN "for the rest of them" ? :-)
>
> True, but if you make entries for them mandatory (bug trackers,
> source, etc), and you encourage users to use them, you begin being to
> be the change you want to be, which is making PyPi *less* of an "app
> store" where the consumer doesn't collaborate with the authors.
>
> Or maybe rather than *putting* this stuff into Pypi; pypi allows
> plugins to allow authors to link in RSS feeds to their bug trackers,
> wiki streams, what have you.
>

IMO plugins could be a little bit complicated because PyPI would need
to be extended, and there's also the problem of installing, upgrading
and maintaining each plugin . OTOH if PyPI relies on a single API
based on open standards (e.g. RPC or something RESTful ;o) then that
would represent less overhead for PyPI maintainers .

Instead of votes + comments I'd prefer a similar user interface but
doing things as follows (feel free to filter things; besides I'll
mention how it should work using Trac XmlRpcPlugin , but should be
similar for other PMS ;o) :

  - Previous comments retrieved from third party site
and shown (e.g. no more than 5 and only most recent shown like TH.org)
as well as a link to navigate to third party site in order to look
for further
issues . (ticket.getAll + ticket.get)
  - Text input would be the description of a ticket (ticket.create)
  - A combobox to select either comment | defect | support (ticket.create)
  - Ratings could be interpreted as a priority or severity ...
(labels = ticket.priority.getAll + ticket.priority.getAll ,
 values for single item = ticket.get )

Implementing all this might require to add more information to the
index (I am not sure) and also config options in the site for package
maintainers, but since it'd be more useful (for me) probable (me and
others) will prefer something like that : *and users won't even notice
the changes*

;o)

Nonetheless plugins approach is more general and flexible, and it is
also possible to develop a plugin to support the RPC-based integration
with external issue trackers . The main difference is maintenance
effort once it's up and running .

;o)

> I think everyone can co exist, just not one at the cost of another ;)
>

+1 ... keeping relevant data in single place

-- 
Regards,

Olemis.

Blog ES: http://simelo-es.blogspot.com/
Blog EN: http://simelo-en.blogspot.com/

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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[A.M. Kuchling]

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 11:30:27AM -0800, Guido van Rossum wrote:
> etc.). Maybe there should be a standard "social app" that you can just
> customize for a specific purpose. Sounds like an interesting project,
> actually.

For comments, haloscan and disqus are third-party comment-hosting
services; http://redalt.com/blog/comment-services has a longer list.
I don't know if any of them support rating of the posts or objects
being commented on (as opposed to rating other comments, which is
supported by some of them).  Or if any of them can delegate moderation
to the module authors, as opposed to the PyPI admins.

PyPI's REST-style URLs also work nicely as keys or RDF identifiers, so
it would be straightforward to use them for identifying ratings or
comment threads.

--amk
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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Martin v. Löwis]

>> The current rate is roughly 1 comment per day (with peaks of 5
>> comments), so it takes of rather slowly.
>>
> 
> Until spammers decide to attack...

Sure. However, spambots have avoided PyPI so far, and manual spamming
only had one incident (of somebody creating dozens of packages on a
single day).

My understanding is that spambots target systems where a comment form
is present even in the unloggedin state. In PyPI, you need to create
the account before you can comment.

Regards,
Martin

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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Robert Collins]

On Thu, 2009-11-12 at 08:25 -0600, Barry Warsaw wrote:
> 
> 
> That's distressing.  For better or worse PyPI is the central  
> repository of 3rd party packages.  It should be easy, desirable, fun  
> and socially encouraged to get your packages there.

Its already socially encouraged: heck, if package foo is not on PyPI, it
doesn't exist.

As an author who hosts code elsewhere, I really want to get feedback on
my packages. I don't really see the point of having a comment system in
PyPI ((*for me*), but I would really like to be able to have a link to
the appropriate web page for folk that want to ask questions. To be
clear, I mean a specific link, not just the 'link to a website'.

-Rob


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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Terry Reedy]

Guido van Rossum wrote:

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 10:30 AM, Terry Reedy  wrote:

Barry Warsaw wrote:

On Nov 12, 2009, at 8:06 AM, Jesse Noller wrote:


Frankly, I agree with him. As implemented, I *and others* think this
is broken. I've taken the stance of not publishing things to PyPi
until A> I find the time to contribute to make it better or B> It
changes.

That's distressing.  For better or worse PyPI is the central repository of
3rd party packages.  It should be easy, desirable, fun and socially
encouraged to get your packages there.

I think his point is that a new book announcement servive is different from
a book review and rating service.  And that mixing the two is 'socially
discouraging'. I do not know what the answer is


I would say that publishers disagree -- they seem to really like
adding "social" stuff to their book announcement service. See e.g.
Amazon (which combines all functions: announcement/promotion,
ordering/download, review/comments/rate/popularity).


I use user reviews on both Amazon and Netflix. I notice that both let 
people rate the reviews (helpful or not), and I sometimes look at those 
also. Both list items without the say-so of creators, though most will 
tolerate possible bad reviews in exchange for sales. I very seldom see 
an item with only one review, so there is usually a mix. There are also 
ratings averaged across a lot more people.


Part of the pypi problem is a startup problem of initially low numbers. 
If the only people who bother to log in to rate are the disgruntled, 
then the ratings/reviews will be biased. I wonder how many of the people 
promoting the new feature have themselves logged in to systematically 
rate and possibly comment on every package they have looked at, and 
thereby kickstart the system with fair responses.


Authors can often respond to magazine/journal reviews in Letters to the 
Editor. Publishers tend to exercise some editorial control over reviews 
so as to not make the publication look bad with grossly bad reviews. 
Even on Amazon, an author could, I presume, add a response to a 
factually incorrect review.


Terry Jan Reedy

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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Ben Finney]

Barry Warsaw  writes:

> On Nov 12, 2009, at 8:06 AM, Jesse Noller wrote:
>
> > Frankly, I agree with him. As implemented, I *and others* think this
> > is broken. I've taken the stance of not publishing things to PyPi
> > until A> I find the time to contribute to make it better or B> It
> > changes.

I'm updating my existing packages, but I have zero interest in
publishing new packages to PyPI while it's trying to be a popularity
rating and comment system.

> That's distressing. For better or worse PyPI is the central repository
> of 3rd party packages.

That's exactly what we want it to be. The problem is the current
implementation is diluting that focus and making it much less attractive
to have one's packages there.

-- 
 \  “Rightful liberty is unobstructed action, according to our |
  `\will, within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of |
_o__)   others.” —Thomas Jefferson |
Ben Finney


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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Nick Coghlan]

Barry Warsaw wrote:
> I personally think a ratings system can be useful, but you should be
> able to opt-out of it if you want.  Or just write such awesome software
> that the bogus bad reviews will be buried by an avalanche of kudos.

One of the problems I have with online rating/comment systems for
software are I see them as inherently biased. Happy users are more
likely to be busy coding, unhappy users are more likely to be frustrated
and looking for somewhere to vent.

If the package author can't even *respond* to mistaken or misguided
comments then the review system is fundamentally broken. Better not to
have one at all - let people vent on their own blogs and other sites,
and let potential users let Google do its thing (and if Google turns up
nothing, then that in itself is a data point).

Regards,
Nick.

-- 
Nick Coghlan   |   ncogh...@gmail.com   |   Brisbane, Australia
---
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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Chris Withers]

Martin v. Löwis wrote:

I'm going to take a poll RSN, and see what the majority of users
think (rather than their vocal fraction). Then we can see what to do
about it.


Yes please! I've been silently waiting for this and have (surprisingly 
for me!) managed to resist joining in the rant.


I'm of the crowd who just wants to make comments (I don't care about 
ratings one way or another, and I can't, sadly, see anyone giving me 
access as to who-voted-less-than-5 so I can follow up with them and see 
what needs to be improved) optional. I'm quite okay with having a banner 
saying "This package has opted not to receive comments". I believe the 
software I release on PyPI is strong enough on its own merits that 
people will use it ;-)


Chris

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   - http://www.simplistix.co.uk
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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Chris Withers]

Arc Riley wrote:
It would be more useful to provide a PyPI mechanism to publish a link to 
file bugs on the project's own website and leave project ratings the 
work of other sites such as Ohloh.


Yes, I really wish I could include all the links in the sections on, 
say, http://www.simplistix.co.uk/software/python/errorhandler in my 
package metadata, and have that show on PyPI.


Sadly, there are many PEP battles and much gnashing of teeth before that 
will ever happen :-(


Chris

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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Ben Finney]

Masklinn  writes:

> On 12 Nov 2009, at 17:31 , Jesse Noller wrote:
> > But before we even did those; why not have mandatory links for
> > entries to bug trackers, mailing lists, source repositories, etc?
> > I'm saying saying this doesn't seem well thought out, and the
> > current implementation is broken by design. Of course, as I said
> > earlier; since I don't have time to patch it; I'll simply just not
> > participate.
> I think having links to those is a very good idea and more important
> than a comment/notation system. They shouldn't be mandatory though,
> not every library has a mailing list, or even a (public anyway) bug
> tracker.

I think Jesse's point (or, if he's not willing to claim it, my point) is
that, compared to the mandatory comment system, it makes much *more*
sense to have a mandatory field for “URL to the BTS for this project”.

At least it can be expected that in many cases project maintainers will
*want* to use a conventional BTS, VCS, discussion forum, etc. So that
route makes more sense than a mandatory comment system outside the
project maintainer's control, while providing the user-participation
that is the purported motivation.

-- 
 \“Spam will be a thing of the past in two years' time.” —Bill |
  `\ Gates, 2004-01-24 |
_o__)  |
Ben Finney

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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Antoine Pitrou]

A.M. Kuchling  amk.ca> writes:
> 
> For comments, haloscan and disqus are third-party comment-hosting
> services; http://redalt.com/blog/comment-services has a longer list.

They are horrible for page loading times; and besides, I don't know how you can
trust such third-party to provide an important function of your Web site, /and/
manage its data.



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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Nick Coghlan]

Chris Withers wrote:
> I'm quite okay with having a banner
> saying "This package has opted not to receive comments".

Particularly if the developer is able to add a prominent link to the
project's own support site or mailing list.

Cheers,
Nick.

-- 
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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[R. David Murray]

On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 at 15:42, Terry Reedy wrote:
Part of the pypi problem is a startup problem of initially low numbers. If 
the only people who bother to log in to rate are the disgruntled, then the 
ratings/reviews will be biased. I wonder how many of the people promoting the 
new feature have themselves logged in to systematically rate and possibly 
comment on every package they have looked at, and thereby kickstart the 
system with fair responses.


For what it's worth, I never look at PyPI.  I get my packages either
through Gentoo's portage or, if it isn't there (yet), by finding the
package's home site through Google.  So I'm a happy user of a number of
packages, whose comments will never show up on PyPI.

--David (RDM)
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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[James Y Knight]

On Nov 12, 2009, at 4:11 PM, Ben Finney wrote:
I think Jesse's point (or, if he's not willing to claim it, my  
point) is

that, compared to the mandatory comment system, it makes much *more*
sense to have a mandatory field for “URL to the BTS for this project”.


One might look at the "competition" for inspiration. Looking at CPAN.  
There's no "comments" feature, but there is a "CPAN RT" bug-tracker  
which appears to be a way for users to submit comments/problems about  
packages in a way common to all packages in CPAN, but distinct from  
upstream's bug trackers/lists/etc. I'd assume that gets emailed to the  
listed maintainer of the package as well as being accessible to other  
users, although I don't really have any idea.


e.g.
http://search.cpan.org/~capttofu/DBD-mysql/lib/DBD/mysql.pm

There might be something to be said for providing users a way to  
provide feedback that doesn't require making a accounts in a bazillion  
separate bugtrackers.


*shrug*

James
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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Martin v. Löwis]

Nick Coghlan wrote:
> Chris Withers wrote:
>> I'm quite okay with having a banner
>> saying "This package has opted not to receive comments".
> 
> Particularly if the developer is able to add a prominent link to the
> project's own support site or mailing list.

It's really puzzling that people always assume that people would use
comments primarily to get help, or to report problems. It appears that
nobody expects users to merely comment, voicing their opinion - yet
the comment that triggered this particular thread was precisely that.

Regards,
Martin
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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Martin v. Löwis]

> Part of the pypi problem is a startup problem of initially low numbers.
> If the only people who bother to log in to rate are the disgruntled,
> then the ratings/reviews will be biased.

Fortunately, that isn't actually the case. The majority of comments is
positive (from scanning the full list of comments, without actually
counting).

> Even on Amazon, an author could, I presume, add a response to a
> factually incorrect review.

And so they can on PyPI.

Regards,
Martin
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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Martin v. Löwis]

> At least it can be expected that in many cases project maintainers will
> *want* to use a conventional BTS, VCS, discussion forum, etc. So that
> route makes more sense than a mandatory comment system outside the
> project maintainer's control, while providing the user-participation
> that is the purported motivation.

I think you are missing the point of the commenting system: these
comments are *not* directed towards the package author. Instead, they
are directed towards fellow users of the package. For this kind of
message, a bugtracker is completely inappropriate, as is a mailing list,
or any other kind of support forum.

I agree that users asking for support should not use the PyPI commenting
system.

Regards,
Martin

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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Georg Brandl]

R. David Murray schrieb:
> On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 at 15:42, Terry Reedy wrote:
>> Part of the pypi problem is a startup problem of initially low numbers. If 
>> the only people who bother to log in to rate are the disgruntled, then the 
>> ratings/reviews will be biased. I wonder how many of the people promoting 
>> the 
>> new feature have themselves logged in to systematically rate and possibly 
>> comment on every package they have looked at, and thereby kickstart the 
>> system with fair responses.
> 
> For what it's worth, I never look at PyPI.  I get my packages either
> through Gentoo's portage or, if it isn't there (yet), by finding the
> package's home site through Google.  So I'm a happy user of a number of
> packages, whose comments will never show up on PyPI.

The other large group of easy_install users will also never get to the
individual package pages on PyPI.

Except when they have a problem, and then they are likely to only complain
through the comments.

Georg

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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Masklinn]

On 12 Nov 2009, at 22:53 , James Y Knight wrote:
> On Nov 12, 2009, at 4:11 PM, Ben Finney wrote:
>> I think Jesse's point (or, if he's not willing to claim it, my point) is
>> that, compared to the mandatory comment system, it makes much *more*
>> sense to have a mandatory field for “URL to the BTS for this project”.
> 
> One might look at the "competition" for inspiration. Looking at CPAN. There's 
> no "comments" feature
There is, on search.cpan.org. See http://search.cpan.org/~petdance/ack/ for 
instance, the link leads to http://cpanratings.perl.org/ (a pretty interesting 
example of the "distributed" nature of cpan in fact).

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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Ben Finney]

Guido van Rossum  writes:

> Maybe that's an example of a user who doesn't know how to use those
> support channels? I know I wouldn't bother with IRC even if it was the
> only way to get in touch with users, I hate it with a vengeance.
> (Though arguably I'm a special case -- whenever I show up everyone
> goes "h, Guido is here." :-) And I might not want to sign up for a
> mailing list for a casual question. And what exactly is a "forum"?

By my understanding of English, a “forum” is any assembly for open
discussion of a topic. Mailing lists, IRC channels, Usenet groups, and
gatherings in a pub all merit the term “forum”; and no crappy web
applications get to usurp its meaning exclusively.

(Nothing to do with PyPI, just an appeal to keeping terms useful.)

-- 
 \ “I have had a perfectly wonderful evening, but this wasn't it.” |
  `\ —Groucho Marx |
_o__)  |
Ben Finney

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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[James Y Knight]

On Nov 12, 2009, at 5:23 PM, Masklinn wrote:


On 12 Nov 2009, at 22:53 , James Y Knight wrote:

On Nov 12, 2009, at 4:11 PM, Ben Finney wrote:
I think Jesse's point (or, if he's not willing to claim it, my  
point) is

that, compared to the mandatory comment system, it makes much *more*
sense to have a mandatory field for “URL to the BTS for this  
project”.


One might look at the "competition" for inspiration. Looking at  
CPAN. There's no "comments" feature
There is, on search.cpan.org. See http://search.cpan.org/~petdance/ack/ 
 for instance, the link leads to http://cpanratings.perl.org/ (a  
pretty interesting example of the "distributed" nature of cpan in  
fact).


Ah, I see. I totally managed to miss that...I guess that's an  
interesting example of a bad web ui. :)


James

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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Martin v. Löwis]

> Except when they have a problem, and then they are likely to only complain
> through the comments.

As this theory has been repeated often here, I decided to go through all
comments and classify them, as:
- good: (overall) positive evaluation (possibly including minor
  criticism/wishes)
- bad: negative evaluation, complaint, bug report
- neutral: statement of fact (typically in response to some help
  request)

Here is what I got:
- good:   20
- bad:11
- neutral: 9

So far, the theory that only complainers will comment cannot be
substantiated by facts. Of course, it could be that all the negative
comments come from easy_install users, and all the positive comments
from people who browse through PyPI... Notice however that such
easy_install users often would have to create a PyPI account first.

Regards,
Martin
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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Ben Finney]

"Martin v. Löwis"  writes:

> Nick Coghlan wrote:
> > Particularly if the developer is able to add a prominent link to the
> > project's own support site or mailing list.
>
> It's really puzzling that people always assume that people would use
> comments primarily to get help, or to report problems. It appears that
> nobody expects users to merely comment, voicing their opinion - yet
> the comment that triggered this particular thread was precisely that.

I'm reading “the project's own mailing list” as a fine place to do
exactly that: discuss the project.

-- 
 \ “If nothing changes, everything will remain the same.” —Barne's |
  `\   Law |
_o__)  |
Ben Finney

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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Masklinn]

On 12 Nov 2009, at 23:44 , James Y Knight wrote:
> On Nov 12, 2009, at 5:23 PM, Masklinn wrote:
>> On 12 Nov 2009, at 22:53 , James Y Knight wrote:
>>> On Nov 12, 2009, at 4:11 PM, Ben Finney wrote:
 I think Jesse's point (or, if he's not willing to claim it, my point) is
 that, compared to the mandatory comment system, it makes much *more*
 sense to have a mandatory field for “URL to the BTS for this project”.
>>> 
>>> One might look at the "competition" for inspiration. Looking at CPAN. 
>>> There's no "comments" feature
>> There is, on search.cpan.org. See http://search.cpan.org/~petdance/ack/ for 
>> instance, the link leads to http://cpanratings.perl.org/ (a pretty 
>> interesting example of the "distributed" nature of cpan in fact).
> 
> Ah, I see. I totally managed to miss that...I guess that's an interesting 
> example of a bad web ui. :)
I'm not sure it's so bad, it's just that it's at the root of the "cpan package" 
rather than in the POD (just click on "BDB-mysql" in the breadcrumb trail, 
landing at http://search.cpan.org/~capttofu/DBD-mysql/).

Interestingly, the link to cpanratings from BDB-mysql is broken and yields a 
404, even though its CPAN page lists 5 reviews and a score of ~3.5.
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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Tres Seaver]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Guido van Rossum wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 11:25 AM, Jesse Noller  wrote:
>> I'd not trust a package without a bug tracker, mailing list or link to
>> the source a lot sooner than something without comments and ratings.
> 
> Yeah, but you're not exactly an average user. Most users don't know
> how to use a bug tracker. Also, there's a large variety of packages on
> PyPI. Not every developer has the same attitude, but they all live
> happily together on PyPI. (Or did you want someone to start a separate
> CPAN "for the rest of them" ? :-)
> 
> [...]
>> What about astroturfing? What's to stop me from writing a script to
>> create a pile of accounts and then bumping packages I like with
>> glowing ratings and reviews? Who is going to be the moderator, and how
>> to decide between spam, incorrect comment, etc?
> 
> Those are all hard problems, though all of them have at least partial
> solutions in the other worlds (Amazon, Wikipedia, Apple app store,
> etc.). Maybe there should be a standard "social app" that you can just
> customize for a specific purpose. Sounds like an interesting project,
> actually.

The appstore analogy actually helps Jesse's case"  "iFart in your
general direction."  (iFart is the top-rated app).  Popularity and
quality aren't related in any direct fashion.


Tres.
- --
===
Tres Seaver  +1 540-429-0999  tsea...@palladion.com
Palladion Software   "Excellence by Design"http://palladion.com
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iEYEARECAAYFAkr8kZMACgkQ+gerLs4ltQ4ScQCeJtYU9KkAq2K1Dkk0jK9ffHvB
IuwAoNBWpMPFR1YsdhQN31oS1L5m91UL
=qmmQ
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Martin v. Löwis]

Ben Finney wrote:
> "Martin v. Löwis"  writes:
> 
>> Nick Coghlan wrote:
>>> Particularly if the developer is able to add a prominent link to the
>>> project's own support site or mailing list.
>> It's really puzzling that people always assume that people would use
>> comments primarily to get help, or to report problems. It appears that
>> nobody expects users to merely comment, voicing their opinion - yet
>> the comment that triggered this particular thread was precisely that.
> 
> I'm reading “the project's own mailing list” as a fine place to do
> exactly that: discuss the project.

No no no: discuss with whom? The commenter may not want to discuss
anything about the project, let alone with the package author. If it's
a positive comment, you may likely only get "me too", anyway; if it's
a negative comment, perhaps the commenter has already given up on the
package, and just wants to warn other users. It's those other users that
then will have problems finding reviews on the mailing list.

Regards,
Martin
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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Antoine Pitrou]

Martin v. Löwis  v.loewis.de> writes:
> 
> I think you are missing the point of the commenting system: these
> comments are *not* directed towards the package author. Instead, they
> are directed towards fellow users of the package. For this kind of
> message, a bugtracker is completely inappropriate, as is a mailing list,
> or any other kind of support forum.

Then why not simply add a sentence or two before the comment form warning that
the comment system is not meant to ask for help, support or debugging about the
package?

Regards

Antoine.


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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Masklinn]

On 13 Nov 2009, at 00:00 , Antoine Pitrou wrote:
> 
> Then why not simply add a sentence or two before the comment form warning that
> the comment system is not meant to ask for help, support or debugging about 
> the
> package?
Because users don't read warnings. The warning will therefore be promptly 
ignored, and then the aforementioned user will start ripping on the package 
because he didn't get help following his comment.
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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Jesse Noller]

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 5:47 PM, "Martin v. Löwis"  wrote:
>> Except when they have a problem, and then they are likely to only complain
>> through the comments.
>
> As this theory has been repeated often here, I decided to go through all
> comments and classify them, as:
> - good: (overall) positive evaluation (possibly including minor
>  criticism/wishes)
> - bad: negative evaluation, complaint, bug report
> - neutral: statement of fact (typically in response to some help
>  request)
>
> Here is what I got:
> - good:   20
> - bad:    11
> - neutral: 9
>
> So far, the theory that only complainers will comment cannot be
> substantiated by facts. Of course, it could be that all the negative
> comments come from easy_install users, and all the positive comments
> from people who browse through PyPI... Notice however that such
> easy_install users often would have to create a PyPI account first.
>
> Regards,
> Martin

And how many of the "good" comments are astroturfers?

What's so bad about package maintainers from having an opt-out? I'd
rather run a pypi competitor at this point.
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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Antoine Pitrou]

Masklinn  masklinn.net> writes:
> 
> On 13 Nov 2009, at 00:00 , Antoine Pitrou wrote:
> > 
> > Then why not simply add a sentence or two before the comment form warning
that
> > the comment system is not meant to ask for help, support or debugging about 
the
> > package?
> Because users don't read warnings.

I don't like assuming users are idiots.

> The warning will therefore be promptly ignored, and then the
> aforementioned user will start ripping on the package because he didn't get
> help following his comment.

And then it's easy to point out that he was wrong if there was a warning in the
first place.


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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Martin v. Löwis]

> And how many of the "good" comments are astroturfers?

If I understand that term correctly, it's about disguise: how would
I be able to answer that question?

> What's so bad about package maintainers from having an opt-out?

PyPI is not just (and perhaps not even primarily) there for the package
authors, but for the package users (and not surprisingly, it's
primarily the package authors who ask for banning the user opinions).

I'm just not willing to submit to one side; hence the poll.

Regards,
Martin


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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Ben Finney]

Antoine Pitrou  writes:

> Masklinn  masklinn.net> writes:
> > Because users don't read warnings.
>
> I don't like assuming users are idiots.

You don't have to. You need only assume that users are busy, focussed on
a task (“leave feedback”), and will therefore unconsciously filter out
*anything* that is not the simplest path to complete that task.

> > The warning will therefore be promptly ignored, and then the
> > aforementioned user will start ripping on the package because he
> > didn't get help following his comment.
>
> And then it's easy to point out that he was wrong if there was a
> warning in the first place.

I don't like having systems which make it easier to do the wrong thing
than do the right thing, then blame those users for taking the obvious
path to their goal.

-- 
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  `\   |
_o__)  |
Ben Finney

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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Masklinn]

On 13 Nov 2009, at 00:15 , Antoine Pitrou wrote:
> Masklinn  masklinn.net> writes:
>> 
>> On 13 Nov 2009, at 00:00 , Antoine Pitrou wrote:
>>> 
>>> Then why not simply add a sentence or two before the comment form warning
> that
>>> the comment system is not meant to ask for help, support or debugging about 
> the
>>> package?
>> Because users don't read warnings.
> I don't like assuming users are idiots.
You don't have to. It's about expediency and care (or lack thereof) rather than 
idiocy. User(*) wants a solution, user finds place where he could ask, user 
asks.

Users (which includes e.g. language users) tend to be lazy, rather than stupid.

>> The warning will therefore be promptly ignored, and then the
>> aforementioned user will start ripping on the package because he didn't get
>> help following his comment.
> And then it's easy to point out that he was wrong if there was a warning in 
> the
> first place.
And then user will probably ask why you're not answering the question since 
you're here anyway, or might go as far as telling you that if you're not going 
to help you might as well not answer.

*: not every user, but I believe a significant minority at least.
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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Neil Hodgson]

   When SourceForge started having comments and ratings, I was a
little upset at having poor negative comments there (like "not
work!"). But after it has been running for a while it appears useful.
I suppose it helps that Scintilla has 88% thumbs up from 134
respondents. Because there is voting on comments, the more useful
comments have bubbled onto the front page.

   As the system is used more, you'll see a wider range of comments on
projects and you'll be able to tell more from them. It should be seen
as a completely separate thing to the existing fora and trackers that
each project has. While you want people to become involved in your
project, many are just having a quick look and don't want to sign up
for mailing lists or to interact with project members. They may just
want to quickly comment about whether it was suitable or not.

   Neil
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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Martin v. Löwis]

Antoine Pitrou wrote:
> Martin v. Löwis  v.loewis.de> writes:
>> I think you are missing the point of the commenting system: these
>> comments are *not* directed towards the package author. Instead, they
>> are directed towards fellow users of the package. For this kind of
>> message, a bugtracker is completely inappropriate, as is a mailing list,
>> or any other kind of support forum.
> 
> Then why not simply add a sentence or two before the comment form warning that
> the comment system is not meant to ask for help, support or debugging about 
> the
> package?

Done!

Martin
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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Ben Finney]

"Martin v. Löwis"  writes:

> PyPI is not just (and perhaps not even primarily) there for the
> package authors, but for the package users (and not surprisingly, it's
> primarily the package authors who ask for banning the user opinions).

No-one here is asking for “banning the user opinions”. As already
pointed out, users are not mute; there are plenty of places for them to
have a voice.

I understand the mood here to be, not that user feedback is not wanted,
but rather that PyPI in particular should be a place for *objective*
data about a package.

> I'm just not willing to submit to one side; hence the poll.

I hope the poll question will not be as biased as the above
mischaracterisation. If you ask “do you want feedback from users?” or
something similar, that's missing the point entirely, and a “yes” answer
doesn't speak to this discussion at all.

-- 
 \“Always code as if the guy who ends up maintaining your code |
  `\ will be a violent psychopath who knows where you live.” —John |
_o__) F. Woods |
Ben Finney

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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Ben Finney]

Masklinn  writes:

> Users (which includes e.g. language users) tend to be lazy, rather
> than stupid.

I've found it useful to realise that, from the perspective of a
program/website/feedback form, etc., the user has a tiny brain: but
that's only because the user's big brain is *not* solely dedicated to
the program/website/feedback form, etc.

When designing a UI, one must realise that, though users are generally
possessed of big brains, only a *tiny* portion of that brain can be
assumed to be available for the UI; the rest is focussed on stuff the
user actually cares about at the time.

Assuming the user is stupid or lazy is bad, since it's false most of the
time. Assuming that they're only willing to put forth as much attention
or effort as absolutely necessary to complete the task, is *good*, since
that turns out to be true most of the time.

-- 
 \   “It's easy to play any musical instrument: all you have to do |
  `\   is touch the right key at the right time and the instrument |
_o__)will play itself.” —Johann Sebastian Bach |
Ben Finney

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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[David Lyon]

On Fri, 13 Nov 2009 00:44:30 +0100, Xavier Morel 
wrote:
> If pypi one day has a CPAN-style buildbot farm allowing it to test the
> package on any platform under the sun, that can be included, the tests
can
> be included as well but given the number of testing solutions (and
coverage
> discovery associated) that would be quite an undertaking.

I'm working on such a thing in my spare time. Yep, it's a big time
commitment.

http://bitbucket.org/djlyon/pypi-package-testbot/

> And as far as docs go, what would be the criterion?  "Has documentation"?

Yes.

> How do you define "has documentation"? Has auto-extracted documentation
> from the docstrings? 

Yes.

> Has a README? 

Yes

Has a complete sphinx package? I don't think there's much that you can 
rate "objectively" about documentation.

You can't do it objectively, but you can use a computer to count the
number of lines and come up with a score.

Daivd
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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Martin v. Löwis]

David Lyon wrote:
> On Fri, 13 Nov 2009 00:44:30 +0100, Xavier Morel 
> wrote:
>> If pypi one day has a CPAN-style buildbot farm allowing it to test the
>> package on any platform under the sun, that can be included, the tests
> can
>> be included as well but given the number of testing solutions (and
> coverage
>> discovery associated) that would be quite an undertaking.
> 
> I'm working on such a thing in my spare time. Yep, it's a big time
> commitment.
> 
> http://bitbucket.org/djlyon/pypi-package-testbot/

See also

http://pycheesecake.org/

Regards,
Martin
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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Martin v. Löwis]

> Users (which includes e.g. language users) tend to be lazy, rather than 
> stupid.

Then they likely won't comment on PyPI. To do so, they have to setup an
account (which most don't have). They can't post comments without an
account.

Regards,
Martin
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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Martin v. Löwis]

> Why can't we just disable it until we can come up with a better system
> that finds a balance between the rights of maintainers, and those of
> the user?

Because I want to wait for the outcome of the poll first.

Regards,
Martin

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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Xavier Morel]

On 13 Nov 2009, at 00:35 , Antoine Pitrou wrote:
> Masklinn  masklinn.net> writes:
>> 
>> And then user will probably ask why you're not answering the question since
>> you're here anyway, or might go
>> as far as telling you that if you're not going to help you might as well not
>> answer.
> As I said, you are regarding the user as an idiot or as a troll.
I don't think so, but we might disagree on either definition, or both.
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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Xavier Morel]

On 13 Nov 2009, at 00:34 , Jesse Noller wrote:
> That's because as an author/maintainer - we have methods of giving
> feedback and communication. Why not rate ( or auto-rate) packages on
> objective criteria?
> 
> E.g.: tests and test coverage, docs, installs on python version X, Y,
> Z, works on windows, etc?
Because there are lots of subjective criteria which are still very useful to 
users? The feeling of the API, the completeness of the library or its 
flexibility, etc…?

If pypi one day has a CPAN-style buildbot farm allowing it to test the package 
on any platform under the sun, that can be included, the tests can be included 
as well but given the number of testing solutions (and coverage discovery 
associated) that would be quite an undertaking.

And as far as docs go, what would be the criterion? "Has documentation"? How do 
you define "has documentation"? Has auto-extracted documentation from the 
docstrings? Has a README? Has a complete sphinx package? I don't think there's 
much that you can rate "objectively" about documentation.

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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Martin v. Löwis]

> But you can bet your ass that if PyPI isn't made a good, neutral,
> central resource I'm going to leave for one that is. Do you really
> want a flood of package maintainers de-listing their packages just so
> that things work the way you think they should?
> 
> I should clarify that I'm speaking personally and not in any official
> "Django capacity." I don't have personal control over whether or not
> Django would de-list from PyPI. Django's run by a community process,
> and I'd listen to the voice of the community before doing anything
> unilaterally. It's a good idea, this community process. We might want
> to apply it to PyPI one of these days.

And indeed, I do: feel free to participate in the poll.

Regards,
Martin

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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Jacob Kaplan-Moss]

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 5:25 PM, "Martin v. Löwis"  wrote:
> I'm just not willing to submit to one side; hence the poll.

Nobody's asking you to "submit" to anything! We're asking for the
control to decide ourselves.

Look, there's already a large faction of people who just want to write
off PyPI and launch our own package server instead. I'm nearly on
board, but we've had enough fragmentation in the packaging world
lately, and I don't want to make the project worse.

But you can bet your ass that if PyPI isn't made a good, neutral,
central resource I'm going to leave for one that is. Do you really
want a flood of package maintainers de-listing their packages just so
that things work the way you think they should?

I should clarify that I'm speaking personally and not in any official
"Django capacity." I don't have personal control over whether or not
Django would de-list from PyPI. Django's run by a community process,
and I'd listen to the voice of the community before doing anything
unilaterally. It's a good idea, this community process. We might want
to apply it to PyPI one of these days.

Jacob
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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Antoine Pitrou]

Masklinn  masklinn.net> writes:
> 
> And then user will probably ask why you're not answering the question since
> you're here anyway, or might go
> as far as telling you that if you're not going to help you might as well not
> answer.

As I said, you are regarding the user as an idiot or as a troll.


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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Masklinn]

On 13 Nov 2009, at 00:37 , Martin v. Löwis wrote:
>> Users (which includes e.g. language users) tend to be lazy, rather than 
>> stupid.
> Then they likely won't comment on PyPI. To do so, they have to setup an
> account (which most don't have). They can't post comments without an
> account.
Fair point
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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Jesse Noller]

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 6:25 PM, "Martin v. Löwis"  wrote:
>> And how many of the "good" comments are astroturfers?
>
> If I understand that term correctly, it's about disguise: how would
> I be able to answer that question?

It's unprovable. But I could see a group of people easily coordinating
large amounts of negative, or positive feedback targeting particular
packages, that looks legit.

I know any "end user" rating and feedback system can be gamed. Just
look at the reviews of milk on amazon.

>> What's so bad about package maintainers from having an opt-out?
>
> PyPI is not just (and perhaps not even primarily) there for the package
> authors, but for the package users (and not surprisingly, it's
> primarily the package authors who ask for banning the user opinions).
>
> I'm just not willing to submit to one side; hence the poll.

That's because as an author/maintainer - we have methods of giving
feedback and communication. Why not rate ( or auto-rate) packages on
objective criteria?

E.g.: tests and test coverage, docs, installs on python version X, Y,
Z, works on windows, etc?

Quality can be measured. Me being a total failure and not reading the
docs, and failing to install something is subjective. I don't disagree
with the goal of giving *users* a voice, but is PyPI the right place
for that? How many moderators do we have to watch comments? Can other
users down vote comments by people which are simply *wrong*?

Why can't we just disable it until we can come up with a better system
that finds a balance between the rights of maintainers, and those of
the user?
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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[Guido van Rossum]

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 4:00 PM, Ben Finney  wrote:
> I've found it useful to realise that, from the perspective of a
> program/website/feedback form, etc., the user has a tiny brain: [...]

Actually it's the other way around. It's the program that has the tiny
brain. :-)

-- 
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[David Lyon]

Hi All,

What do people think about this idea? I've actually started writing
something to try to to do this and create sn automated scoring system
for the packages on pypi.

It was started last week based on Guido's comments on the distutils
mailing list.

> Why not rate ( or auto-rate) packages on
> objective criteria?
> 
> E.g.: tests and test coverage, docs, installs on python version X, Y,
> Z, works on windows, etc?
> 
> Quality can be measured. Me being a total failure and not reading the
> docs, and failing to install something is subjective. I don't disagree
> with the goal of giving *users* a voice, but is PyPI the right place
> for that? How many moderators do we have to watch comments? Can other
> users down vote comments by people which are simply *wrong*?
> 
> Why can't we just disable it until we can come up with a better system
> that finds a balance between the rights of maintainers, and those of
> the user?

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Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

[David Lyon]

On Fri, 13 Nov 2009 01:14:54 +0100, "Martin v. Löwis" 
wrote:

> http://pycheesecake.org/

Ok, so what is the current status on it?

David
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