Re: [Python-Dev] April 1st jokes (was: Base-96)

2008-08-03 Thread Oleg Broytmann
On Sat, Aug 02, 2008 at 02:15:29PM -0700, Guido van Rossum wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 2, 2008 at 11:57 AM, Guido van Rossum <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > That was an April Fool's RFC.
> 
> See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_Fools%27_Day_RFC -- it has
> a ton of these. Great fun reading through some of them on an idle
> Saturday afternoon. :-)

   There were a lot of Python jokes for the Apr 1st. What a pity we have
ceased to make such jokes.

http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2001-April/076593.html

http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2003-April/197232.html

http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2004-April/256320.html
   (Despite being a joke it really works!)

http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2005-April/315453.html

http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2005-April/315457.html

http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2006-April/375866.html

Oleg.
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Re: [Python-Dev] April 1st jokes

2008-08-03 Thread Georg Brandl

Oleg Broytmann schrieb:

On Sat, Aug 02, 2008 at 02:15:29PM -0700, Guido van Rossum wrote:

On Sat, Aug 2, 2008 at 11:57 AM, Guido van Rossum <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> That was an April Fool's RFC.

See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_Fools%27_Day_RFC -- it has
a ton of these. Great fun reading through some of them on an idle
Saturday afternoon. :-)


   There were a lot of Python jokes for the Apr 1st. What a pity we have
ceased to make such jokes.


You forget the April 1st PEPs:

http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0313/
http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-3117/

Georg

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Re: [Python-Dev] April 1st jokes (was: Base-96)

2008-08-03 Thread Guido van Rossum
Hm, I'm sure there were many more, perhaps in different places. I
recall participating with Larry Wall in the announcement of Parrot, a
Python/Perl merger -- hence the name of the Perl 6 VM. And others. I'd
love to see people post more references here! (Georg already posted
the April Fool's PEPs.)

On Sun, Aug 3, 2008 at 2:19 AM, Oleg Broytmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 02, 2008 at 02:15:29PM -0700, Guido van Rossum wrote:
>> On Sat, Aug 2, 2008 at 11:57 AM, Guido van Rossum <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> > That was an April Fool's RFC.
>>
>> See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_Fools%27_Day_RFC -- it has
>> a ton of these. Great fun reading through some of them on an idle
>> Saturday afternoon. :-)
>
>   There were a lot of Python jokes for the Apr 1st. What a pity we have
> ceased to make such jokes.
>
> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2001-April/076593.html
>
> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2003-April/197232.html
>
> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2004-April/256320.html
>   (Despite being a joke it really works!)
>
> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2005-April/315453.html
>
> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2005-April/315457.html
>
> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2006-April/375866.html
>
> Oleg.
> --
> Oleg Broytmannhttp://phd.pp.ru/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>   Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN.
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[Python-Dev] Issue with distutils and new mingw binutils

2008-08-03 Thread Paul Moore
Can I draw python-dev's attention to http://bugs.python.org/issue3496 ?

Without this fix, distutils doesn't support the new version of
binutils (which is probably coming into more common use). It would be
good if this could be fixed for 2.6. I've attached a patch to the
issue report, could someone possibly check it over and apply if
appropriate?

Thanks,
Paul.
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Re: [Python-Dev] April 1st jokes (was: Base-96)

2008-08-03 Thread skip

Guido> Hm, I'm sure there were many more, perhaps in different places. 

I figured it's a slow Sunday so I'd collect them on the wiki:

http://wiki.python.org/moin/AprilFools

I found the Python/Perl joint development press release, but only on the
Wayback machine.  It appears that when redesigning the python.org website
that page was deemed inappropriate.

Skip
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[Python-Dev] String concatenation

2008-08-03 Thread Stavros Korokithakis

Hello,
is concatenation of adjacent strings a useful feature? So far the only 
use case I've seen is causing me endless hours of debugging when I 
forget the comma in a tuple of strings, like so:


("first",
 "second"
 "third")

Which then becomes a tuple of two items, instead of three. It would have 
been much better if it produced an error. Is there any good reason that 
this feature exists, or would it be better if it were removed?


Regards,
Stavros Korokithakis
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Re: [Python-Dev] String concatenation

2008-08-03 Thread Michael Foord

Stavros Korokithakis wrote:

Hello,
is concatenation of adjacent strings a useful feature? So far the only 
use case I've seen is causing me endless hours of debugging when I 
forget the comma in a tuple of strings, like so:


("first",
 "second"
 "third")

Which then becomes a tuple of two items, instead of three. It would 
have been much better if it produced an error. Is there any good 
reason that this feature exists, or would it be better if it were 
removed?


It can be a very useful feature.

See the rejected PEP 3126 for a discussion:

http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-3126/

Michael Foord



Regards,
Stavros Korokithakis
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Re: [Python-Dev] String concatenation

2008-08-03 Thread Tres Seaver
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Stavros Korokithakis wrote:
> Hello,
> is concatenation of adjacent strings a useful feature? So far the only 
> use case I've seen is causing me endless hours of debugging when I 
> forget the comma in a tuple of strings, like so:
> 
> ("first",
>   "second"
>   "third")
> 
> Which then becomes a tuple of two items, instead of three. It would have 
> been much better if it produced an error. Is there any good reason that 
> this feature exists, or would it be better if it were removed?

- -1.  The feature exists to allow adherence to PEP-8, "Limit all lines to
a maximum of 79 characters.", without requiring runtime concatenation
costs.  I use it frequently when assembling and testing message strings,
for instance.


Tres.
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===
Tres Seaver  +1 540-429-0999  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Palladion Software   "Excellence by Design"http://palladion.com
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFIlfMR+gerLs4ltQ4RAjc/AJ9QiO4EWMfamHwyRLaZ+cowu8bT9gCbB+/Y
979rSOIrbRs8lYW3T8Kv6WE=
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Re: [Python-Dev] String concatenation

2008-08-03 Thread Stavros Korokithakis
Hmm, thanks, although I don't see why it was rejected, since it seems to 
me that by using the addition operator or triple-quoting all the use 
cases would become clearer and not significantly harder to write, while 
the (often silent) errors would not happen any more.


The PEP only mentions that "the feature to be removed isn't all that 
harmful, and there are some use cases that would become harder", but I'm 
not sure that the "harder use cases" (which ones?) justify the error 
potential.


Stavros Korokithakis

Michael Foord wrote:

Stavros Korokithakis wrote:

Hello,
is concatenation of adjacent strings a useful feature? So far the only 
use case I've seen is causing me endless hours of debugging when I 
forget the comma in a tuple of strings, like so:


("first",
 "second"
 "third")

Which then becomes a tuple of two items, instead of three. It would 
have been much better if it produced an error. Is there any good 
reason that this feature exists, or would it be better if it were 
removed?


It can be a very useful feature.

See the rejected PEP 3126 for a discussion:

http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-3126/

Michael Foord



Regards,
Stavros Korokithakis
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Re: [Python-Dev] String concatenation

2008-08-03 Thread Antoine Pitrou
Tres Seaver  palladion.com> writes:
> 
> -1.  The feature exists to allow adherence to PEP-8, "Limit all lines to
> a maximum of 79 characters.", without requiring runtime concatenation
> costs.  I use it frequently when assembling and testing message strings,
> for instance.

In many cases there is no runtime concatenation cost.

>>> def f():
...  return "first" + "second"
... 
>>> import dis
>>> dis.dis(f)
  2   0 LOAD_CONST   3 ('firstsecond')
  3 RETURN_VALUE


Regards

Antoine.


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Re: [Python-Dev] String concatenation

2008-08-03 Thread Simon Cross
On Sun, Aug 3, 2008 at 8:29 PM, Antoine Pitrou <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In many cases there is no runtime concatenation cost.
>
 def f():
> ...  return "first" + "second"
> ...
 import dis
 dis.dis(f)
>  2   0 LOAD_CONST   3 ('firstsecond')
>  3 RETURN_VALUE

The "many cases" only extends to strings whose combined length is less
than 20 characters:

>>> dis.dis(lambda : "1234567890123456789" + "0")
  1   0 LOAD_CONST   2 ('12345678901234567890')
  3 RETURN_VALUE
>>> dis.dis(lambda : "1234567890123456789" + "01")
  1   0 LOAD_CONST   0 ('1234567890123456789')
  3 LOAD_CONST   1 ('01')
  6 BINARY_ADD
  7 RETURN_VALUE

Adjacent string concentation works on arbitrary length string constants:

>>> dis.dis(lambda : "12345678901234567890"  "12345678901234567890")
  1   0 LOAD_CONST   0
('1234567890123456789012345678901234567890')
  3 RETURN_VALUE
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Re: [Python-Dev] String concatenation

2008-08-03 Thread Antoine Pitrou
Le dimanche 03 août 2008 à 20:38 +0200, Simon Cross a écrit :
> The "many cases" only extends to strings whose combined length is less
> than 20 characters:

Oops. I didn't know that. Is there any rationale (I suppose so)?



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[Python-Dev] new mailing list: python-committers

2008-08-03 Thread Brett Cannon
I figured I would send out a quick email to let people know of the
existence of a new mailing list: python-committers
(http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers) so that no
one thinks something sneaky is going on behind the scenes.

It is invite-only, but publicly archived. The point of the list is for
stuff like when the repository is off-limits to commits or to discuss
release dates, etc.; basically stuff where every committer needs to be
aware of something and input from the community is not needed. That
way nothing important gets drowned out in python-dev by accident. At
this point all committers should be subscribed to the list.

But almost all discussions will continue to be on python-ideas,
python-dev, and python-3000. Any new proposals should continue to go
to python-ideas first (since those discussions tend to be the
noisiest, and people should feel okay to tell people quickly that a
discussion should be moved over to python-ideas), and then stuff about
developing Python should go to python-dev or python-3000 since some
community input is almost always good and practically every developer
still reads python-dev anyway.

-Brett
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Re: [Python-Dev] String concatenation

2008-08-03 Thread Nick Coghlan

Stavros Korokithakis wrote:
Hmm, thanks, although I don't see why it was rejected, since it seems to 
me that by using the addition operator or triple-quoting all the use 
cases would become clearer and not significantly harder to write, while 
the (often silent) errors would not happen any more.


The PEP only mentions that "the feature to be removed isn't all that 
harmful, and there are some use cases that would become harder", but I'm 
not sure that the "harder use cases" (which ones?) justify the error 
potential.


As I recall, removing implicit string concatenation simply resulted in 
too much code breakage for not enough benefit. There is also the 
minor(!) issue of breaking il8n tools that understand implicit string 
concatenation but not string addition.


Cheers,
Nick.

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Re: [Python-Dev] April 1st jokes

2008-08-03 Thread Greg Ewing

Guido van Rossum wrote:

Hm, I'm sure there were many more, perhaps in different places.


Although it wasn't April 1, here's one I posted
in response to python-dev discussions.

http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2001-May/084169.html

There was also another one concerning how to reduce
the number of ways of copying a list, but Google
doesn't seem to want to find it.

--
Greg
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Re: [Python-Dev] April 1st jokes (was: Base-96)

2008-08-03 Thread Guido van Rossum
On Sun, Aug 3, 2008 at 10:37 AM,  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>Guido> Hm, I'm sure there were many more, perhaps in different places.
>
> I figured it's a slow Sunday so I'd collect them on the wiki:
>
>http://wiki.python.org/moin/AprilFools

Great!

> I found the Python/Perl joint development press release, but only on the
> Wayback machine.  It appears that when redesigning the python.org website
> that page was deemed inappropriate.

Alas, way too much stuff was dropped by the redesign. ;-(

I should track down the Tim Peters award (or whatever it was called)
and link that.

We should probably cross-link with the Python humor page on python.org
(unless that's also been axed).

-- 
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Re: [Python-Dev] April 1st jokes (was: Base-96)

2008-08-03 Thread Aahz
On Sun, Aug 03, 2008, Guido van Rossum wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 3, 2008 at 10:37 AM,  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> I found the Python/Perl joint development press release, but only on the
>> Wayback machine.  It appears that when redesigning the python.org website
>> that page was deemed inappropriate.
> 
> Alas, way too much stuff was dropped by the redesign. ;-(
> 
> I should track down the Tim Peters award (or whatever it was called)
> and link that.
> 
> We should probably cross-link with the Python humor page on python.org
> (unless that's also been axed).

IIRC, the humor page was axed due to lack of updates -- I recommend
finding the material using Wayback and just adding it to the wiki.
-- 
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[Python-Dev] Py3k tasks spreadsheet

2008-08-03 Thread Paul Hummer
I'm not sure if this should go here or the python3000 list, but I think
it probably fits a bit better here, as it has to do with development. 
I'm putting together a small sprint for our newly formed Python group
here locally, and I stumbled across this Google doc with Py3k tasks that
need completed.  It's found here:

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pBLWM8elhFAmKbrhhh0ApQA

How up to date is this?  Could we base some sprint tasks off of some of
the things that are on there?  I see mention of earlier versions of
Py3k, so I thought I'd confirm.  There are quite a few tasks there that
an experienced Python coder could probably hammer out in a weekend (if
not sooner).  If this spreadsheet is out of date, is there a current
list of tasks somewhere else that might help us to set some goals and
provide some help to Py3k development?  What about python 2.x development?

Thanks,
Paul
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