Re: [Python-Dev] Re: proto-pep: How to change Python's bytecode

2004-12-25 Thread Brett C.
Scott David Daniels wrote:
Brett C. wrote:
A few things can be done to make sure that development goes smoothly when
experimenting with Python's bytecode.  One is to delete all .py(c|o|w) 
Don't you mean ".pyc or .pyo (remember such files in zips as well)"
.pyw is normal python source.
Yeah, my bad.  Been a while since I have written a .pyw file.
-Brett
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Re: [Python-Dev] Re: proto-pep: How to change Python's bytecode

2004-12-25 Thread Brett C.
Terry Reedy wrote:
"Brett C." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message 
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

At to the title, bytecodes are a property of the CPython implementation, 
not of Python itself.  Since I think the distinction is quite important to 
maintain, I would insert the missing 'C' and everywhere else as 
appropriate.

Then the same could be said for PEP 306.  But I don't mind changing the 
title.

After implementing over 10 new opcodes for my thesis I figured I should 
write down the basic steps in an info PEP so that there is enough 
guidelines with this PEP and PEP 306 to cover the bases on changes to the 
language itself.

Over the last several years, various people have reported experimenting 
with CPython's bytecodes.  I wonder if it would be helpful to have a 
respository of the results, in one place, for new experimenters and curious 
people to peruse.

Wouldn't hurt.  Adding that section would not be bad, but I don't have the 
inclination to hunt them down.  What do others think about having this section?

-Brett
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[Python-Dev] Upcoming PyPy sprint

2004-12-25 Thread Armin Rigo
Hi Python people,

The next sprint for PyPy, the Python-in-Python interpreter, will take 
place in Leysin, in the lower mountains of Switzerland,

22nd - 29th January 2005 (travel days: 22nd and 29-30th)
http://codespeak.net/moin/pypy/moin.cgi/LeysinSprint

The technical goals will be two-fold: we want to continue the hard work 
started at the previous Vilnius sprint (a first generated C version of our 
interpreter); but the upcoming sprint will also be a "learning PyPy" 
sprint, covering all aspects of PyPy that are easier to start with.  
Some examples are described below.  For more information about PyPy, see 
http://codespeak.net/pypy/index.cgi?doc .

The "learning PyPy" focus comes from the fact that it will be our first 
sprint as a European Union sponsored group, and not all members of this 
EU/PyPy project are already familiar with PyPy.  This is a good occasion 
for newcomers that want to look at PyPy more closely too, in a "fun and 
somewhat mind-altering" sprint event.  Note that as part of our funding we 
want to be able to support some of the travel and lodging costs for a 
number of outside people as well, but although the corresponding money is 
in the budgets, not all administrative issues have been solved yet.  We 
don't know yet if we will be able to do so for the January sprint.

However, if you would like to come to the sprint but can't afford 
travel and accomodation costs then please contact us.  Even if the
administrative issues have not been sorted out, we may be able to 
help with private money.  Just contact us or me personally for this
sprint. 

About Leysin


The place where the sprint will take place is located in the pre-Alps of 
the french-speaking (west) region of Switzerland.  Leysin is a village at 
an altitude of 1200 to 1400m.  It is a skiing station, and also the place 
where I (Armin) lived for 20 years.  There are 2000 people in summer and 
1 in winter :-) but the sprint will be just before the most crowded 
periods of February.  Of course one full day will be dedicated to winter 
sports!

Both the sprint venue and the logding will be in a very spacious pair of 
chalets built specifically for bed&breakfast: http://www.ermina.ch/.  The 
place has a baseline ADSL Internet connexion (600Kb); we need to arrange 
between ourselves to bring a wireless hub.  You can of course arrange your 
own lodging anywhere (you cannot be more than a 15 minutes walk away from 
the sprint venue), but I definitely recommend to lodge there too -- you 
won't find better sights anywhere else (though you probably won't get much 
worse ones easily, either :-)


Subscription


Please subscribe at

http://codespeak.net/moin/pypy/moin.cgi/LeysinSprintAttendants

and mention if you would like to participate in the group reservation, and
which size of room you would prefer (2 to 6 beds available).  If you wish, you
can extend your stay for some days after the 29th of January -- please mention
it if you want to book with the group (but you cannot arrive there earier
than the 22nd: fully booked).

If you have any question don't hesitate to contact 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] or one of us personally.


Learning PyPy
-

Here are some goals that are quite reachable without in-depth prior 
knowledge of PyPy:

 * systematic testing: the interpreter and type implementations work 
   generally well, but there are quite some areas that need refactoring 
   and refinement.  A good approach is to run as many of CPython's tests 
   as possible and fix stuff accordingly.  This is a good way to learn 
   random parts of PyPy until you know them all!

 * extension modules and extension types: some can be just rewritten as a 
   plain Python equivalent, but others need to be more integrated into
   PyPy's internals.

 * the bytecode compiler: we don't have any compiler integrated with PyPy 
   so far, but there exists a complete set of Python code out there 
   (tokenizer, parser, st->ast, ast->bytecode) that could be used.  We
   could also discuss ideas like syntax extensions generating new
   bytecodes, etc.

 * tracing and other wrappers: e.g. how to write a fully debugging Object 
   Space that records the history of all changes to objects, etc.

 * more bits and pieces: small things missing from our interpreter to be fully 
   compliant.  Tracing/profiling hooks come to mind; more small things 
   are listed in http://codespeak.net/svn/pypy/trunk/src/pypy/TODO .

In addition to the above examples, there are a number of more involved tasks
that nevertheless don't require a complete grasp of PyPy -- whose parts are
relatively independent from each other.  The "hard" work currently going on in
PyPy is on the translation part, which is needed to make PyPy run faster
and/or in other environments.  This work is however mostly independent.  For
people that prefer to focus on cross-language stuff rather than Python
internals we can discuss about tasks like writing the basics o

[Python-Dev] Re: proto-pep: How to change Python's bytecode

2004-12-25 Thread Scott David Daniels
Brett C. wrote:
Terry Reedy wrote:
"Brett C." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote
Over the last several years, various people have reported 
experimenting with CPython's bytecodes.  I wonder if it would be 
helpful to have a respository of the results, in one place, for new 
experimenters and curious people to peruse.
Wouldn't hurt.  Adding that section would not be bad, but I don't have 
the inclination to hunt them down.  What do others think about having 
this section?
What you could do is declare a wiki page which anyone could go to; less
work for you, and forms a new place to pool knowledge.
-- Scott David Daniels
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [Python-Dev] Re: proto-pep: How to change Python's bytecode

2004-12-25 Thread Skip Montanaro

>> Over the last several years, various people have reported
>> experimenting with CPython's bytecodes.  I wonder if it would be
>> helpful to have a respository of the results, in one place, for new
>> experimenters and curious people to peruse.

Brett> Wouldn't hurt.  Adding that section would not be bad, but I don't
Brett> have the inclination to hunt them down.  What do others think
Brett> about having this section?

How about just references in the PEP?  I presented a paper several years ago
at a Python workshop on a peephole optimizer for Python.  Also, Michael
Hudson has his no-longer-active bytecodehacks stuff:


http://www.foretec.com/python/workshops/1998-11/proceedings/papers/montanaro/montanaro.html
http://bytecodehacks.sourceforge.net/bch-docs/bch/index.html

I imagine there's other stuff as well.

Skip
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