[python-committers] Re: Notification of a three-month ban from Python core development

2020-07-23 Thread Matthias Klose 
Apparently there was agreement to hide this kind of information, and that's
worse than the original behavior that was acted on. Who will be next? For what
reason?  I am not questioning the decision, at least we voted for our delegates,
so I have to respect that decision even if I would disagree.  If you don't want
to communicate in public, then email committers separately, or create a private
ML for committers.

Matthias


On 7/23/20 12:39 AM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
> It’s a really difficult call.  Please accept that everyone on the PSF Board, 
> SC, and WG are really trying to do their best.  I know you do Nathaniel, so 
> this is not meant to call you out personally, it’s just a general plea for 
> understanding.  This has been really difficult for everyone involved, often 
> in ways that are not visible publicly.
> 
> -Barry
> 
>> On Jul 22, 2020, at 13:54, Nathaniel Smith  wrote:
>>
>> Given that this is a response to behavior in public mailing list
>> posts, the lack of specificity feels off to me. Whatever this person
>> did is already public. What's being hidden isn't their behavior; it's
>> the conduct-wg/steering-council's reasoning for banning them. The
>> point of having a CoC is that everyone is on the same page and can be
>> confident about what behavior is unacceptable and acceptable, but it's
>> hard for them or others to learn from this, if you don't tell them or
>> us why they were banned...
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> 
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[python-committers] Re: Notification of a three-month ban from Python core development

2020-07-23 Thread Christian Heimes 
On 23/07/2020 09.52, Matthias Klose wrote:
> Apparently there was agreement to hide this kind of information, and that's
> worse than the original behavior that was acted on. Who will be next? For what
> reason?  I am not questioning the decision, at least we voted for our 
> delegates,
> so I have to respect that decision even if I would disagree.  If you don't 
> want
> to communicate in public, then email committers separately, or create a 
> private
> ML for committers.

python-committers has a public mail archive. Anybody is able to follow
python-committers discussions via the public mailing list interface. I
understand why the SC is avoiding name calling in public.

Barry, multiple core devs have raised a concern now. There is at least
one more CoC violation under investigation, which is going to cause even
more concern. Would it make sense to disclose more details on the matter
in the private area on discuss.python.org? We have an internal forum
that is only accessible by core devs and PSF staff. That way the SC can
disclose more information in a  private post without public name calling
and public shaming.

Christian
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[python-committers] Re: Notification of a three-month ban from Python core development

2020-07-23 Thread Jack Diederich 
I'm sorry we had to ban Guido for three months but maybe he'll learn his
lesson and not merge commit messages that include screeds about "relics of
white supremacy".

-Jack

On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 3:30 PM Python Steering Council <
[email protected]> wrote:

> The following message was sent to a core developer. This message was
> thoughtfully and respectfully sent by the Steering Council as a serious
> reminder that the privilege to serve as a core developer comes with the
> responsibility to act thoughtfully.
>
> ---
>
> Based on Code of Conduct violations in your recent mailing list posts, and
> under the recommendation of the Code of Conduct Working Group, the Python
> Steering Council has voted to issue a three-month corrective action to you
> for Core Python development.
> This corrective action bans you from all Core Development privileges
> including commit rights, issue tracker privileges, and participation in all
> core development communication spaces including mailing lists, Discourse,
> and Zulip channels. This corrective action will be in effect for three
> months. At the end of the three month period, these privileges will be
> automatically reinstated.
>
> The Python Code of Conduct workgroup reviewed the conduct reports and
> recommended that corrective action was necessary for the violations. The
> Python Steering Council finds these violations to be serious breaches of
> civility and expected core development conduct.
>
> Please consider this corrective action as a serious reminder that Python
> core development is a privilege. This privilege to serve as a core
> developer comes with the responsibility to act thoughtfully and reflect on
> how hostile communications are harmful to other members of the community.
> We trust that you will respect the temporary loss of privileges and the
> seriousness of this action.
>
> Respectfully,
> Python Steering Council
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[python-committers] Re: Notification of a three-month ban from Python core development

2020-07-23 Thread Donald Stufft 


> On Jul 23, 2020, at 3:52 AM, Matthias Klose  wrote:
> 
> Apparently there was agreement to hide this kind of information, and that's
> worse than the original behavior that was acted on. Who will be next? For what
> reason?  I am not questioning the decision, at least we voted for our 
> delegates,
> so I have to respect that decision even if I would disagree.  If you don't 
> want
> to communicate in public, then email committers separately, or create a 
> private
> ML for committers.


I don’t think it’s unreasonable to allow the core developer the chance to come 
back in 3 months without all of their “colleagues” (for lack of a better word), 
knowing they’ve had disciplinary action taken against them. ___
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[python-committers] Re: Notification of a three-month ban from Python core development

2020-07-23 Thread Nathaniel Smith 
On Thu, Jul 23, 2020, 05:25 Jack Diederich  wrote:

> I'm sorry we had to ban Guido for three months but maybe he'll learn his
> lesson and not merge commit messages that include screeds about "relics of
> white supremacy".
>

I'm guessing there's some layers of irony or sarcasm in this message, but
I'm definitely not able to unpack them, and I think it's spectacularly
inappropriate regardless. Maybe you're only joking when you say Guido is at
fault here, and maybe you're only joking when you act like the problem with
white supremacy is people mentioning the existence of white supremacy. I
don't know. I hope so, because both statements are completely false. But
there are certainly plenty of people who think both those things, so it
doesn't work as a joke.

I would forward this post to the conduct-wg, but Jack's already cc'ed them
himself.

I think this interchange illustrates why we need some clearer statements
from the conduct-wg when you all have a chance. Obviously Jack and I still
have very different ideas about what's appropriate here. Does the
conduct-wg in fact consider mentions of white supremacy to be a violation
of the CoC? I hope not, but I just don't know.

-n

>
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[python-committers] Re: Notification of a three-month ban from Python core development

2020-07-23 Thread Antoine Pitrou 

Can we stop it already?


Le 23/07/2020 à 17:52, Nathaniel Smith a écrit :
> On Thu, Jul 23, 2020, 05:25 Jack Diederich  > wrote:
> 
> I'm sorry we had to ban Guido for three months but maybe he'll learn
> his lesson and not merge commit messages that include screeds about
> "relics of white supremacy".
> 
> 
> I'm guessing there's some layers of irony or sarcasm in this message,
> but I'm definitely not able to unpack them, and I think it's
> spectacularly inappropriate regardless. Maybe you're only joking when
> you say Guido is at fault here, and maybe you're only joking when you
> act like the problem with white supremacy is people mentioning the
> existence of white supremacy. I don't know. I hope so, because both
> statements are completely false. But there are certainly plenty of
> people who think both those things, so it doesn't work as a joke.
> 
> I would forward this post to the conduct-wg, but Jack's already cc'ed
> them himself.
> 
> I think this interchange illustrates why we need some clearer statements
> from the conduct-wg when you all have a chance. Obviously Jack and I
> still have very different ideas about what's appropriate here. Does the
> conduct-wg in fact consider mentions of white supremacy to be a
> violation of the CoC? I hope not, but I just don't know.
> 
> -n
> 
> 
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[python-committers] Re: Notification of a three-month ban from Python core development

2020-07-23 Thread Nathaniel Smith 
On Thu, Jul 23, 2020, 05:46 Donald Stufft  wrote:

>
>
> On Jul 23, 2020, at 3:52 AM, Matthias Klose  wrote:
>
> Apparently there was agreement to hide this kind of information, and that's
> worse than the original behavior that was acted on. Who will be next? For
> what
> reason?  I am not questioning the decision, at least we voted for our
> delegates,
> so I have to respect that decision even if I would disagree.  If you don't
> want
> to communicate in public, then email committers separately, or create a
> private
> ML for committers.
>
>
>
> I don’t think it’s unreasonable to allow the core developer the chance to
> come back in 3 months without all of their “colleagues” (for lack of a
> better word), knowing they’ve had disciplinary action taken against them.
>

The problem with this reasoning is, the disciplinary action was for things
the core developer did *to* those colleagues, in public.

Imagine two hypothetical scenarios: in both of them, you're at work, and
you see one of your co-workers punch another in the face. Then, in scenario
1, management makes an announcement that people shouldn't punch each other,
and that the offender has been disciplined. In scenario 2, as far as you
know, management doesn't do anything.

In which scenario are you going to find it easier to work with that
colleague in the future? The one where you know that they've learned
something about appropriate behavior and that if they repeat what they did
before there will be consequences, or the one where they "have the chance"
to pretend that everything was fine and that punching co-workers is totally
cool and consequence-free?

I'm all for CoC violators having the chance to make amends and come back,
but the most effective way to do that is to acknowledge the problem and,
well, make amends, not sweep things under the rug.

-n
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[python-committers] Re: Notification of a three-month ban from Python core development

2020-07-23 Thread Barry Warsaw 
I’ve put this topic on the SC's agenda for our Monday meeting.  I can 
appreciate that core developers would like more detail on the behavior that 
initiated the ban.  I’ve also added an item to consider whether and how to 
create a private space for further discussion among core developers (and PSF 
staff) only.

As a general plea, please accept that this ban was not undertaken lightly, 
capriciously, or gladly.  There are lots of checks and balances, and more 
internal discussion that any of us (all volunteers) would ever have liked.  I 
can’t speak for the Conduct WG, but every reported violation was thoroughly 
investigated, and a report was issued to the Board and the SC, along with 
recommendations.  So there were a lot of people involved and consensus was 
reached.  By constitution, the SC has ultimate authority to issue bans, and 
ultimately both the PSF Board and Steering Council are elected positions.  As 
with any democracy, we serve you all, and elections are the way to signal your 
agreement or displeasure with the results.

On a personal note, I want to express my deep respect and gratitude to the 
members of the WG, the Board, and my fellow SC members for the compassion, 
diligence, and sense of responsibility in dealing with these matters.  Every 
single one of them only wants what’s best for the Python community, and we are 
all trying to figure out how to do this the right way, despite the personal 
toll it takes.  None of us wants to do this - we’d all rather be coding.  We’ve 
never had to issue a ban before, so this is uncharted territory.  Any missteps 
are unintentional.  Please, help us navigate this with your understanding, 
constructive, and compassionate assistance.  Let’s use these incidents to 
illustrate the best in the Python community, and why we love being part of it.

Cheers,
-Barry


> On Jul 23, 2020, at 01:17, Christian Heimes  wrote:
> 
> On 23/07/2020 09.52, Matthias Klose wrote:
>> Apparently there was agreement to hide this kind of information, and that's
>> worse than the original behavior that was acted on. Who will be next? For 
>> what
>> reason?  I am not questioning the decision, at least we voted for our 
>> delegates,
>> so I have to respect that decision even if I would disagree.  If you don't 
>> want
>> to communicate in public, then email committers separately, or create a 
>> private
>> ML for committers.
> 
> python-committers has a public mail archive. Anybody is able to follow
> python-committers discussions via the public mailing list interface. I
> understand why the SC is avoiding name calling in public.
> 
> Barry, multiple core devs have raised a concern now. There is at least
> one more CoC violation under investigation, which is going to cause even
> more concern. Would it make sense to disclose more details on the matter
> in the private area on discuss.python.org? We have an internal forum
> that is only accessible by core devs and PSF staff. That way the SC can
> disclose more information in a  private post without public name calling
> and public shaming.
> 
> Christian



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[python-committers] Re: Notification of a three-month ban from Python core development

2020-07-23 Thread Yury Selivanov 
On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 8:53 AM Nathaniel Smith  wrote:
>
> On Thu, Jul 23, 2020, 05:25 Jack Diederich  wrote:
>>
>> I'm sorry we had to ban Guido for three months but maybe he'll learn his 
>> lesson and not merge commit messages that include screeds about "relics of 
>> white supremacy".
>
>
> I'm guessing there's some layers of irony or sarcasm in this message, but I'm 
> definitely not able to unpack them, and I think it's spectacularly 
> inappropriate regardless. Maybe you're only joking when you say Guido is at 
> fault here, and maybe you're only joking when you act like the problem with 
> white supremacy is people mentioning the existence of white supremacy. I 
> don't know. I hope so, because both statements are completely false. But 
> there are certainly plenty of people who think both those things, so it 
> doesn't work as a joke.

+1. Toxic emails like this are one of the reasons why I'm not actively
following Python lists anymore.

Yury
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