[python-committers] How to calm down the discussion on the PEP 572?

[Victor Stinner]

Hi,

Since 2 or 3 years, I saw that that discussions on some PEPs get more
and more emails every year. Maybe because Python became more popular?
Openness is a Python quality, but shortly, the amount of emails
becomes an issue, at least for the author of the PEP.

I counted the number of emails per day of the python-dev mailing list,
using mbox archives available at:
https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/

My script:
https://github.com/vstinner/misc/blob/master/python/parse_mailman_mbox.py

In March, python-dev got 246 emails with a maximum of 31 the 2018-03-21.

In April, the traffic was between 3 and 27 emails per day until the
start of the chaos:

...
2018-04-17: 27
2018-04-18: 20
2018-04-19: 11
2018-04-20: 36
2018-04-21: 36
2018-04-22: 31
2018-04-23: 32
2018-04-24: 72
2018-04-25: 76
2018-04-26: 23
2018-04-27: 10

Current maximum: 76 emails received at 2018-04-25!?

I'm not sure that it's still possible to read carefully all emails to
python-dev and write constructive replies. It seems like people are
answering immediately, without reading past emails nor reading other
emails sent the same day.

I'm also concerned by the general mood of the discussion. Are we still
discussing arguments in polite way?

How can we calm down the discussion, and ask people to don't reply
immediately but instead try to listen to the other people?

IHMO everybody had enough time to give their very important opinion (I
wrote my own very important opinion, don't worry!) on python-ideas and
then on python-dev. We are now turning around.

Can we give Chris more time to update his PEP? In my experience, the
PEP is the most constructive tool to drive a discussion.

I chose to write to python-committers because I now fear that I would
get too many replies on python-dev ...

Victor
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[python-committers] Idea: Create subteams?

[Victor Stinner]

Hi,

While thinking about how to get more contributors onboard, I
identified that one bottleneck is building trust. Currently, a vote to
promote a contributor as a core dev requires the approval of almost
all active core developers, and this list is quite large (50 people?
more?). It takes a lot of time until a contributor is known by enough
people to start the process to promote them as a core dev.

My idea is to create subteams which would have less permission than
"everything": restrict changes to specific directories. It seems like
in practice, we already have such subteams: Documentation, IDLE and
asyncio have a dedicated Component in the bug tracker, their own
directories, a group of people focused on these components, and
even... a dedicated mailing list!

The restriction would be the ability to merge a pull request. Since
miss-ilington recently got the power of merging a PR, it makes me
think that it's doable to allow "non core" people to merge a change
under certain conditions. For example, let's say that a contributor
called "Alice" is part of a subteam. If Alice approves a change in the
review, added the "approved" label and the CI pass: a bot can merge
the change, since Alice is allowed to merge a PR modifying specific
directories.If Alice doesn't have the power, the bot may notice Alice
that she lacks permission and the bot may remove the label.

IMHO it's better to have two steps to merge: approval in the review
and a label, sometimes a change looks good but should not be merged
yet, or you don't want to take the responsibility to merge it
yourself.

What about current core developers? No change for them, they keep
their "super power" to modify everything.

If a member of a subteam shows interest to do more than only working
in a subteam, the usual promotion process with a vote on
python-committers can be followed.

My expectation is that it will be faster to promote a contributor into
a subteam. It's easier to trust someone if they is only allowed to
modify some directories. In my experience, people with the same
interest find their way to meet other people working on the same
topic. The trust is built naturally in a component.

You may see a parallel with the Linux kernel hierarchy and Linux
subsystems, but the proposed organization is different. In Python, the
tradition is that everybody works in the same repository. I don't want
to change that.

What do you think? Do you like the idea of subteams? Is it feasible
(the label and the bot things)?

I identified 3 obvious subteams:

* Documentation
* IDLE
* asyncio

Maybe you see more candidates?

Victor
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Re: [python-committers] Idea: Create subteams?

[Yury Selivanov]

On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 10:12 AM Victor Stinner  wrote:
[..]
> I identified 3 obvious subteams:

> * Documentation
> * IDLE
> * asyncio

Sorry, asyncio isn't an obvious choice for me. There are not so many
low-hanging fruits left in asyncio except improvements to its
documentation. I'm a firm -1 to allow people to merge without Andrew's or
my review at this point, almost no PRs are fine when they are submitted
(including our own). There's a lot of complexity in asyncio which isn't
immediately evident to people who are not working with its internals on a
daily basis.

Now, people who report and submit asyncio PRs seem to do that just fine
without subteams. Although it's rare to see people contributing more than
once, but that's not an asyncio-specific pattern, I see it in every big and
complex project I happen to contribute to.  Even having a dedicated asyncio
mailing list doesn't help to get people to contribute to asyncio more
frequently.

Don't get me wrong, Andrew and I would certainly welcome any help we can
get, but I'd be against running a public experiment with asyncio to see if
2 of us can handle the management of the new sub-teams idea.  Unfortunately
2 of us just don't have capacity for that.

Please pick another project for your idea. Maybe we should try it for
documentation first, where we have a lot of core devs who can help with PR
reviews and management of "subteams".

Yury
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Re: [python-committers] Idea: Create subteams?

[Victor Stinner]

Ok, maybe asyncio is not a good candidate to experiment. I know that
asyncio internals are complex, and asynchronous programming is hard.

Sure, the risk of regression in the Documentation is lower :-) But it
doesn't mean that we should accept any change in the doc. I already
saw people proposing to fix the doc, whereas they misunderstood
something and the doc was plain right :-)

Victor

2018-04-26 16:31 GMT+02:00 Yury Selivanov :
> On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 10:12 AM Victor Stinner  wrote:
> [..]
>> I identified 3 obvious subteams:
>
>> * Documentation
>> * IDLE
>> * asyncio
>
> Sorry, asyncio isn't an obvious choice for me. There are not so many
> low-hanging fruits left in asyncio except improvements to its
> documentation. I'm a firm -1 to allow people to merge without Andrew's or
> my review at this point, almost no PRs are fine when they are submitted
> (including our own). There's a lot of complexity in asyncio which isn't
> immediately evident to people who are not working with its internals on a
> daily basis.
>
> Now, people who report and submit asyncio PRs seem to do that just fine
> without subteams. Although it's rare to see people contributing more than
> once, but that's not an asyncio-specific pattern, I see it in every big and
> complex project I happen to contribute to.  Even having a dedicated asyncio
> mailing list doesn't help to get people to contribute to asyncio more
> frequently.
>
> Don't get me wrong, Andrew and I would certainly welcome any help we can
> get, but I'd be against running a public experiment with asyncio to see if
> 2 of us can handle the management of the new sub-teams idea.  Unfortunately
> 2 of us just don't have capacity for that.
>
> Please pick another project for your idea. Maybe we should try it for
> documentation first, where we have a lot of core devs who can help with PR
> reviews and management of "subteams".
>
> Yury
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Re: [python-committers] How to calm down the discussion on the PEP 572?

[Guido van Rossum]

The way to calm discussions is to stop responding.

On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 4:02 AM, Victor Stinner  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Since 2 or 3 years, I saw that that discussions on some PEPs get more
> and more emails every year. Maybe because Python became more popular?
> Openness is a Python quality, but shortly, the amount of emails
> becomes an issue, at least for the author of the PEP.
>
> I counted the number of emails per day of the python-dev mailing list,
> using mbox archives available at:
> https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/
>
> My script:
> https://github.com/vstinner/misc/blob/master/python/parse_mailman_mbox.py
>
> In March, python-dev got 246 emails with a maximum of 31 the 2018-03-21.
>
> In April, the traffic was between 3 and 27 emails per day until the
> start of the chaos:
>
> ...
> 2018-04-17: 27
> 2018-04-18: 20
> 2018-04-19: 11
> 2018-04-20: 36
> 2018-04-21: 36
> 2018-04-22: 31
> 2018-04-23: 32
> 2018-04-24: 72
> 2018-04-25: 76
> 2018-04-26: 23
> 2018-04-27: 10
>
> Current maximum: 76 emails received at 2018-04-25!?
>
> I'm not sure that it's still possible to read carefully all emails to
> python-dev and write constructive replies. It seems like people are
> answering immediately, without reading past emails nor reading other
> emails sent the same day.
>
> I'm also concerned by the general mood of the discussion. Are we still
> discussing arguments in polite way?
>
> How can we calm down the discussion, and ask people to don't reply
> immediately but instead try to listen to the other people?
>
> IHMO everybody had enough time to give their very important opinion (I
> wrote my own very important opinion, don't worry!) on python-ideas and
> then on python-dev. We are now turning around.
>
> Can we give Chris more time to update his PEP? In my experience, the
> PEP is the most constructive tool to drive a discussion.
>
> I chose to write to python-committers because I now fear that I would
> get too many replies on python-dev ...
>
> Victor
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> Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
>



-- 
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
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Re: [python-committers] How to calm down the discussion on the PEP 572?

[Victor Stinner]

I computed stats since January 2017:

2017-01: Total: 220 msg; avg: 7.6 msg/day; max: 20 msg at 2017-01-18
2017-02: Total: 191 msg; avg: 7.1 msg/day; max: 27 msg at 2017-02-24
2017-03: Total: 240 msg; avg: 8.0 msg/day; max: 20 msg at 2017-03-03
2017-04: Total: 79 msg; avg: 3.0 msg/day; max: 9 msg at 2017-04-21
2017-05: Total: 281 msg; avg: 9.7 msg/day; max: 26 msg at 2017-05-24
2017-06: Total: 426 msg; avg: 14.2 msg/day; max: 80 msg at 2017-06-01
2017-07: Total: 253 msg; avg: 9.7 msg/day; max: 41 msg at 2017-07-17
2017-08: Total: 326 msg; avg: 12.5 msg/day; max: 40 msg at 2017-08-29
2017-09: Total: 548 msg; avg: 19.6 msg/day; max: 84 msg at 2017-09-06
2017-10: Total: 402 msg; avg: 14.4 msg/day; max: 49 msg at 2017-10-02
2017-11: Total: 942 msg; avg: 31.4 msg/day; max: 96 msg at 2017-11-06
2017-12: Total: 536 msg; avg: 17.3 msg/day; max: 67 msg at 2017-12-15
2018-01: Total: 504 msg; avg: 16.8 msg/day; max: 42 msg at 2018-01-05
2018-02: Total: 286 msg; avg: 11.9 msg/day; max: 31 msg at 2018-02-21
2018-03: Total: 246 msg; avg: 8.8 msg/day; max: 31 msg at 2018-03-29
2018-04: Total: 523 msg; avg: 20.9 msg/day; max: 97 msg at 2018-04-24

April 2018 is not yet the worst :-) November 2017 was an interesting month!

Victor
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Re: [python-committers] How to calm down the discussion on the PEP 572?

[Antoine Pitrou]

Obviously, the issue is less the number of messages per month than the
fact that most of them are about a single proposal :-)

Regards

Antoine.


Le 26/04/2018 à 17:10, Victor Stinner a écrit :
> I computed stats since January 2017:
> 
> 2017-01: Total: 220 msg; avg: 7.6 msg/day; max: 20 msg at 2017-01-18
> 2017-02: Total: 191 msg; avg: 7.1 msg/day; max: 27 msg at 2017-02-24
> 2017-03: Total: 240 msg; avg: 8.0 msg/day; max: 20 msg at 2017-03-03
> 2017-04: Total: 79 msg; avg: 3.0 msg/day; max: 9 msg at 2017-04-21
> 2017-05: Total: 281 msg; avg: 9.7 msg/day; max: 26 msg at 2017-05-24
> 2017-06: Total: 426 msg; avg: 14.2 msg/day; max: 80 msg at 2017-06-01
> 2017-07: Total: 253 msg; avg: 9.7 msg/day; max: 41 msg at 2017-07-17
> 2017-08: Total: 326 msg; avg: 12.5 msg/day; max: 40 msg at 2017-08-29
> 2017-09: Total: 548 msg; avg: 19.6 msg/day; max: 84 msg at 2017-09-06
> 2017-10: Total: 402 msg; avg: 14.4 msg/day; max: 49 msg at 2017-10-02
> 2017-11: Total: 942 msg; avg: 31.4 msg/day; max: 96 msg at 2017-11-06
> 2017-12: Total: 536 msg; avg: 17.3 msg/day; max: 67 msg at 2017-12-15
> 2018-01: Total: 504 msg; avg: 16.8 msg/day; max: 42 msg at 2018-01-05
> 2018-02: Total: 286 msg; avg: 11.9 msg/day; max: 31 msg at 2018-02-21
> 2018-03: Total: 246 msg; avg: 8.8 msg/day; max: 31 msg at 2018-03-29
> 2018-04: Total: 523 msg; avg: 20.9 msg/day; max: 97 msg at 2018-04-24
> 
> April 2018 is not yet the worst :-) November 2017 was an interesting month!
> 
> Victor
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Re: [python-committers] How to calm down the discussion on the PEP 572?

[Victor Stinner]

2018-04-26 17:13 GMT+02:00 Antoine Pitrou :
> Obviously, the issue is less the number of messages per month than the
> fact that most of them are about a single proposal :-)

Ok, I did statistics on emails with a subject which contains exactly
"PEP xxx", since January 2017 to today. I'm not sure that it's
reliable, since some people don't write "PEP xxx" in the subject.

vstinner@apu$ ./parse_mailman_mbox2.py 201*txt
PEP 550: 284 msg
PEP 572: 243 msg
PEP 557: 176 msg
PEP 567: 151 msg
PEP 553: 78 msg
PEP 538: 76 msg
PEP 563: 75 msg
PEP 554: 73 msg
PEP 540: 62 msg
PEP 552: 56 msg
PEP 565: 49 msg
PEP 564: 46 msg
PEP 549: 43 msg
PEP 560: 40 msg
PEP 544: 40 msg
PEP 505: 38 msg
PEP 561: 31 msg
PEP 484: 25 msg
PEP 467: 25 msg
PEP 562: 24 msg
PEP 559: 23 msg
PEP 370: 23 msg
PEP 574: 16 msg
PEP 526: 15 msg
PEP 575: 14 msg
PEP 556: 13 msg
PEP 545: 12 msg
PEP 539: 12 msg
PEP 573: 11 msg
PEP 551: 11 msg
PEP 448: 11 msg
PEP 548: 10 msg
PEP 103: 10 msg
PEP 489: 8 msg
PEP 511: 7 msg
PEP 523: 6 msg
PEP 543: 5 msg
PEP 432: 5 msg
PEP 510: 4 msg
PEP 530: 3 msg
PEP 490: 3 msg
PEP 393: 3 msg
PEP 541: 2 msg
PEP 479: 2 msg
PEP 442: 2 msg
PEP 568: 1 msg
PEP 394: 1 msg

Total: 1868 msg; avg: 39.7 msg/PEP

According to my tool, Yury Selivanov holds the current record with the
PEP 550 and 284 emails :-) Especially if you add the 151 messages of
the PEP 567. (Where is the PEP 555 in my list?)

Victor
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Re: [python-committers] How to calm down the discussion on the PEP 572?

[Carol Willing]

> On Apr 26, 2018, at 8:03 AM, Guido van Rossum  > wrote:
> 
> The way to calm discussions is to stop responding.

Hi Victor,

In the gentlest way that I know how, I commend you for considering the impact 
that emails have on PEP writers especially when "dogpiling" (i.e. folks jumping 
in without anything new to add to the discussion on a controversial issue). 
People are hard :( and wonderful :)

In my experience, people's actions (as Guido mentions) do more to calm things 
than technology. One slippery slope with a technical solution is that people 
then begin to game the technical system. Responding calmly, staying on topic by 
addressing the approach not the PEP writer, seeking to work toward a better 
solution than shooting down an idea, and slowing your response time are ways to 
calm things down and improve productivity. These concepts are well proven by 
the Harvard Negotiation project.

One constructive thing that we can do is to put yourself in the shoes of the 
PEP writer before pressing "send" and consider how you might "feel" if you 
received the message that you are about to send.

Warmly,

Carol


> 
> On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 4:02 AM, Victor Stinner  > wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Since 2 or 3 years, I saw that that discussions on some PEPs get more
> and more emails every year. Maybe because Python became more popular?
> Openness is a Python quality, but shortly, the amount of emails
> becomes an issue, at least for the author of the PEP.
> 
> I counted the number of emails per day of the python-dev mailing list,
> using mbox archives available at:
> https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/ 
> 
> 
> My script:
> https://github.com/vstinner/misc/blob/master/python/parse_mailman_mbox.py 
> 
> 
> In March, python-dev got 246 emails with a maximum of 31 the 2018-03-21.
> 
> In April, the traffic was between 3 and 27 emails per day until the
> start of the chaos:
> 
> ...
> 2018-04-17: 27
> 2018-04-18: 20
> 2018-04-19: 11
> 2018-04-20: 36
> 2018-04-21: 36
> 2018-04-22: 31
> 2018-04-23: 32
> 2018-04-24: 72
> 2018-04-25: 76
> 2018-04-26: 23
> 2018-04-27: 10
> 
> Current maximum: 76 emails received at 2018-04-25!?
> 
> I'm not sure that it's still possible to read carefully all emails to
> python-dev and write constructive replies. It seems like people are
> answering immediately, without reading past emails nor reading other
> emails sent the same day.
> 
> I'm also concerned by the general mood of the discussion. Are we still
> discussing arguments in polite way?
> 
> How can we calm down the discussion, and ask people to don't reply
> immediately but instead try to listen to the other people?
> 
> IHMO everybody had enough time to give their very important opinion (I
> wrote my own very important opinion, don't worry!) on python-ideas and
> then on python-dev. We are now turning around.
> 
> Can we give Chris more time to update his PEP? In my experience, the
> PEP is the most constructive tool to drive a discussion.
> 
> I chose to write to python-committers because I now fear that I would
> get too many replies on python-dev ...
> 
> Victor
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> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido )
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Re: [python-committers] How to calm down the discussion on the PEP 572?

[Victor Stinner]

Ah sorry, results were surprising, so I did more stats including python-ideas.

"PEP 572: 662 msg" is now the obvious winner. Congrats Chris Angelico
for the new record!

python-dev + python-ideas, Jan 2017 - April 2018 :

vstinner@apu$ ./parse_mailman_mbox2.py python-dev/* python-ideas/*
PEP 572: 662 msg
PEP 550: 387 msg
PEP 557: 177 msg
PEP 567: 155 msg
PEP 540: 140 msg
PEP 554: 110 msg
PEP 563: 106 msg
PEP 505: 91 msg
PEP 538: 80 msg
PEP 553: 78 msg
PEP 560: 72 msg
PEP 552: 56 msg
PEP 565: 49 msg
PEP 562: 47 msg
PEP 564: 46 msg
PEP 549: 43 msg
PEP 561: 42 msg
PEP 544: 40 msg
PEP 484: 28 msg
PEP 467: 25 msg
PEP 526: 24 msg
PEP 559: 23 msg
PEP 370: 23 msg
PEP 574: 16 msg
PEP 575: 14 msg
PEP 556: 13 msg
PEP 573: 12 msg
PEP 545: 12 msg
PEP 539: 12 msg
PEP 551: 11 msg
PEP 448: 11 msg
PEP 548: 10 msg
PEP 447: 10 msg
PEP 103: 10 msg
PEP 506: 9 msg
PEP 489: 8 msg
PEP 555: 7 msg
PEP 511: 7 msg
PEP 523: 6 msg
PEP 543: 5 msg
PEP 432: 5 msg
PEP 510: 4 msg
PEP 530: 3 msg
PEP 490: 3 msg
PEP 393: 3 msg
PEP 541: 2 msg
PEP 479: 2 msg
PEP 468: 2 msg
PEP 442: 2 msg
PEP 568: 1 msg
PEP 394: 1 msg
Total: 2705 msg; avg: 53.0 msg/PEP

Victor

2018-04-26 17:25 GMT+02:00 Victor Stinner :
> 2018-04-26 17:13 GMT+02:00 Antoine Pitrou :
>> Obviously, the issue is less the number of messages per month than the
>> fact that most of them are about a single proposal :-)
>
> Ok, I did statistics on emails with a subject which contains exactly
> "PEP xxx", since January 2017 to today. I'm not sure that it's
> reliable, since some people don't write "PEP xxx" in the subject.
>
> vstinner@apu$ ./parse_mailman_mbox2.py 201*txt
> PEP 550: 284 msg
> PEP 572: 243 msg
> PEP 557: 176 msg
> PEP 567: 151 msg
> PEP 553: 78 msg
> PEP 538: 76 msg
> PEP 563: 75 msg
> PEP 554: 73 msg
> PEP 540: 62 msg
> PEP 552: 56 msg
> PEP 565: 49 msg
> PEP 564: 46 msg
> PEP 549: 43 msg
> PEP 560: 40 msg
> PEP 544: 40 msg
> PEP 505: 38 msg
> PEP 561: 31 msg
> PEP 484: 25 msg
> PEP 467: 25 msg
> PEP 562: 24 msg
> PEP 559: 23 msg
> PEP 370: 23 msg
> PEP 574: 16 msg
> PEP 526: 15 msg
> PEP 575: 14 msg
> PEP 556: 13 msg
> PEP 545: 12 msg
> PEP 539: 12 msg
> PEP 573: 11 msg
> PEP 551: 11 msg
> PEP 448: 11 msg
> PEP 548: 10 msg
> PEP 103: 10 msg
> PEP 489: 8 msg
> PEP 511: 7 msg
> PEP 523: 6 msg
> PEP 543: 5 msg
> PEP 432: 5 msg
> PEP 510: 4 msg
> PEP 530: 3 msg
> PEP 490: 3 msg
> PEP 393: 3 msg
> PEP 541: 2 msg
> PEP 479: 2 msg
> PEP 442: 2 msg
> PEP 568: 1 msg
> PEP 394: 1 msg
>
> Total: 1868 msg; avg: 39.7 msg/PEP
>
> According to my tool, Yury Selivanov holds the current record with the
> PEP 550 and 284 emails :-) Especially if you add the 151 messages of
> the PEP 567. (Where is the PEP 555 in my list?)
>
> Victor
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