[PHP] Re: Reaching the PHP mailing list owners

[Helmut Tessarek]

Well, this is useful.

First I get a a message that the owner of the list is available at
internals-ow...@lists.php.net and then I get another automated reply.

On 12.10.12 13:48 , PHP Lists Owner wrote:
> This is an automated response to your message to 
> "internals-ow...@lists.php.net"
> 
> If you are trying to post to one of the PHP mailing lists, the correct
> address looks something like php-general@lists.php.net.
> 
> If you are having problems unsubscribing, follow the directions
> located online at http://php.net/unsub
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> --- Your original email is below.
> 
> Hello,
> 
> Can you please explain to me how this can happen?
> My mail server only rejects mails which do not pass the clamav milter and I
> haven't seen any virus alerts in the mail log which would refer to the
> messages you have mentioned.
> 
> Cheers,
>  Helmut
> 
> 
> On 12.10.12 6:44 , internals-h...@lists.php.net wrote:
>> Hi! This is the ezmlm program. I'm managing the
>> intern...@lists.php.net mailing list.
>>
>> I'm working for my owner, who can be reached
>> at internals-ow...@lists.php.net.
>>
>>
>> Messages to you from the internals mailing list seem to
>> have been bouncing. I've attached a copy of the first bounce
>> message I received.
>>
>> If this message bounces too, I will send you a probe. If the probe bounces,
>> I will remove your address from the internals mailing list,
>> without further notice.
>>
>>
>> I've kept a list of which messages from the internals mailing list have 
>> bounced from your address.
>>
>> Copies of these messages may be in the archive.
>>
>> To retrieve a set of messages 123-145 (a maximum of 100 per request),
>> send an empty message to:
>>
>>
>> To receive a subject and author list for the last 100 or so messages,
>> send an empty message to:
>>
>>
>> Here are the message numbers:
>>
>>63243
>>63245
>>63244
>>63246
>>
>> --- Enclosed is a copy of the bounce message I received.
>>
>> Return-Path: <>
>> Received: (qmail 81005 invoked from network); 30 Sep 2012 14:49:47 -
>> Received: from unknown (HELO lists.php.net) (127.0.0.1)
>>   by localhost with SMTP; 30 Sep 2012 14:49:47 -
>> Return-Path: <>
>> Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([local])
>>  by pb1.pair.com (ecelerity 2.1.1.9-wez r(12769M)) with INTERNAL
>>  id 70/00-15389-30C58605 for <>; Sun, 30 Sep 2012 10:49:39 -0400
>> From: Mail Delivery System 
>> To: internals-return-63243-tessarek=evermeet...@lists.php.net
>> Subject: Mail Delivery Failure
>> Message-Id: <6E/e1-13052-744d6...@pb1.pair.com>
>> Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 10:49:39 -0400
>>
>> This message was created automatically by the mail system (ecelerity).
>>
>> A message that you sent could not be delivered to one or more of its
>> recipients. This is a permanent error. The following address(es) failed:
>>
> tessa...@evermeet.cx (while not connected): 554 5.4.7 [internal] exceeded 
> max time without delivery
>>
>> -- This is a copy of the headers of the original message. --
>>
>> Return-Path: 
>> X-Host-Fingerprint: 76.75.200.58 pb1.pair.com  
>> Received: from [76.75.200.58] ([76.75.200.58:4337] helo=lists.php.net)
>>  by pb1.pair.com (ecelerity 2.1.1.9-wez r(12769M)) with ESMTP
>>  id 6E/E1-13052-744D6605 for ; Sat, 29 Sep 2012 
>> 06:58:15 -0400
>> Received: (qmail 1431 invoked by uid 1010); 29 Sep 2012 10:57:45 -
>> Mailing-List: contact internals-h...@lists.php.net; run by ezmlm
>> Precedence: bulk
>> list-help: 
>> list-unsubscribe: 
>> list-post: 
>> List-Id: internals.lists.php.net
>> Delivered-To: mailing list intern...@lists.php.net
>> Received: (qmail 1417 invoked from network); 29 Sep 2012 10:57:45 -
>> Authentication-Results: pb1.pair.com smtp.mail=tyr...@gmail.com; spf=pass; 
>> sender-id=pass
>> Authentication-Results: pb1.pair.com header.from=tyr...@gmail.com; 
>> sender-id=pass
>> Received-SPF: pass (pb1.pair.com: domain gmail.com designates 209.85.160.42 
>> as permitted sender)
>> X-PHP-List-Original-Sender: tyr...@gmail.com
>> X-Host-Fingerprint: 209.85.160.42 mail-pb0-f42.google.com  
>> DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
>> d=gmail.com; s=20120113;
>> h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to
>>  :cc:content-type;
>> bh=prZm0cGKMFMCkD/fbiF1tCeiDSlTMznmUQpVEygTdy0=;
>> b=TOSHdETdaKP7G5Ou1eBP7tZVyMRgBjAmfZTyGJWi4L3mNrHEVponyIOiJFE9Vl9Qpq
>>  k9Th+dyyG39Yqh6QinwAz0CEa2NptoMgeKofnF5MxHxXlq0aykkArjJSBUaHFZxFpaVg
>>  3Pw8mm8Aw3a1FbsZTsbiEIRFPVcUiEJEWPzbATHgw0iS8WFXLH4qkcLYC2tUeGM13koQ
>>  rY926iqJEfnSsmegqWWs4GLYLiNOJQouvkyYDh+ZLUmHBTqSsubDdLXIB0TltnBJitvy
>>  B/4Jqbm6LmTXwWFqJEfx7HRMkFn90V71fxGYgvAC5VjWeyHLIOOgG7Vz2Nb1vlQ7DA3j
>>  GvEQ==
>> MIME-Version: 1.0
>> In-Reply-To: 
>> 
>> References: 
>> 
>> Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2012 12:57:39 +0200
>> Mes

Re: [PHP] Re: Reaching the PHP mailing list owners

[Helmut Tessarek]

Hello Daniel,

I wanted to get an answer to my question (which you would have seen, if you
actually had read the mail).

I got a mail that messages bounced from my mail server. So I sent a reply to
the list owner to get an explanation how this is possible, since my mail
server only rejects mails which are flagged by the clamav milter (and this did
not happen). But then, instead of an answer, I got an automated response,
which basically means only one thing: I don't give a damn about your problems
and buzz off. Mailing list owners are supposed to be real people, not bots.

I'm sorry, I was really irritated by this automated respone. It is not very
professional sending people to go in circles.

Cheers,
 Helmut

On 12.10.12 14:01 , Daniel Brown wrote:
> What is it you're trying to achieve with the below, Helmut?
> 
> 
> On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 1:53 PM, Helmut Tessarek  wrote:
>> Well, this is useful.
>>
>> First I get a a message that the owner of the list is available at
>> internals-ow...@lists.php.net and then I get another automated reply.
>>
>> On 12.10.12 13:48 , PHP Lists Owner wrote:
>>> This is an automated response to your message to 
>>> "internals-ow...@lists.php.net"
>>>
>>> If you are trying to post to one of the PHP mailing lists, the correct
>>> address looks something like php-general@lists.php.net.
>>>
>>> If you are having problems unsubscribing, follow the directions
>>> located online at http://php.net/unsub
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>> --- Your original email is below.
>>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> Can you please explain to me how this can happen?
>>> My mail server only rejects mails which do not pass the clamav milter and I
>>> haven't seen any virus alerts in the mail log which would refer to the
>>> messages you have mentioned.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>  Helmut
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12.10.12 6:44 , internals-h...@lists.php.net wrote:
>>>> Hi! This is the ezmlm program. I'm managing the
>>>> intern...@lists.php.net mailing list.
>>>>
>>>> I'm working for my owner, who can be reached
>>>> at internals-ow...@lists.php.net.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Messages to you from the internals mailing list seem to
>>>> have been bouncing. I've attached a copy of the first bounce
>>>> message I received.
>>>>
>>>> If this message bounces too, I will send you a probe. If the probe bounces,
>>>> I will remove your address from the internals mailing list,
>>>> without further notice.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I've kept a list of which messages from the internals mailing list have
>>>> bounced from your address.
>>>>
>>>> Copies of these messages may be in the archive.
>>>>
>>>> To retrieve a set of messages 123-145 (a maximum of 100 per request),
>>>> send an empty message to:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> To receive a subject and author list for the last 100 or so messages,
>>>> send an empty message to:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Here are the message numbers:
>>>>
>>>>63243
>>>>63245
>>>>63244
>>>>63246
>>>>
>>>> --- Enclosed is a copy of the bounce message I received.
>>>>
>>>> Return-Path: <>
>>>> Received: (qmail 81005 invoked from network); 30 Sep 2012 14:49:47 -
>>>> Received: from unknown (HELO lists.php.net) (127.0.0.1)
>>>>   by localhost with SMTP; 30 Sep 2012 14:49:47 -
>>>> Return-Path: <>
>>>> Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([local])
>>>>  by pb1.pair.com (ecelerity 2.1.1.9-wez r(12769M)) with INTERNAL
>>>>  id 70/00-15389-30C58605 for <>; Sun, 30 Sep 2012 10:49:39 -0400
>>>> From: Mail Delivery System 
>>>> To: internals-return-63243-tessarek=evermeet...@lists.php.net
>>>> Subject: Mail Delivery Failure
>>>> Message-Id: <6E/e1-13052-744d6...@pb1.pair.com>
>>>> Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 10:49:39 -0400
>>>>
>>>> This message was created automatically by the mail system (ecelerity).
>>>>
>>>> A message that you sent could not be delivered to one or more of its
>>>> recipients. This is a permanent error. The following address(es) failed:
>>>>
>>>>>>> tessa...@evermeet.cx (while not connected

Re: [PHP] Re: Reaching the PHP mailing list owners

[Helmut Tessarek]

Hello Daniel,

> I briefly glanced, and no more, because anyone with any idea of
> Internet etiquette knows not to forward an entire bunch of junk to a
> public and wholly-unrelated mailing list.  Had you considered the
> appropriate options, such as reading about how to contact us, you'd
> have gotten a response.  Note that the tone of your reply here has
> already changed the tenor of this entire discussion now.

Hmm, that's funny. I sent the mail to the addresses which were listed in the
replies I got. The first mail suggested to use the ml owner, which I did. Then
I got another reply which said the following:

---
This is an automated response to your message to "internals-ow...@lists.php.net"

If you are trying to post to one of the PHP mailing lists, the correct
address looks something like php-general@lists.php.net.

If you are having problems unsubscribing, follow the directions
located online at http://php.net/unsub
---

So the only address that actually seemed to be working was
php-general@lists.php.net

How do you expect me to investigate how to contact the mailing list owners
other than reading the mails I get from the mailing list.

You wrote that 'anyone with any idea of Internet etiquette knows not to
forward an entire bunch of junk to a public and wholly-unrelated mailing list'.
You know, you could also say the following:

Anyone with any idea of Internet etiquette knows that if you send an automated
reply, you also include a correct address to which you can reply to.

Using only addresses that return additional canned responses is against the
Internet etiquette.

It is not my fault that the only address that worked was a totally unrelated
public mailing list.

> And, for the most part, we are (save for a few sentient androids).
>  However, go to news.php.net and look at those bounce messages.  Note
> it's all consecutive, within a relatively small window of time.  Then,
> using your own suggestion about reading the email, look at the bounce
> response: the messages were undeliverable up to a time threshold, when
> the server gave up.  Sounds like there was an issue connecting to your
> SMTP system during that window.  If you have the appropriate access,
> you might want to review your mail logs during this window.

Ok. This makes sense since the mail server was down for several days due to a
HW problem.
But this is something which can happen and I find it rather concerning getting
an email which states that I might be removed w/o further notice.
If the system knows that mails were undeliverable during a certain period,
then there is no reason for sending me a warning. If this happens for 14
consecutive days, then it makes sense to send an email.

> Well, as the adage goes, you'll catch more flies with honey than
> with vinegar.  And considering this is the very first message I've
> ever seen from you, it sounds like either (a) you didn't follow the
> proper protocol, or (b) there's something in the process we need to
> review.  If you think the issue lies on our end, you can submit a bug
> at https://bugs.php.net/ and detail the steps to reproduce the issue.
> If it is indeed something we need to correct, believe me, we will.  We
> don't deliberately attempt to mislead or frustrate people, despite how
> it might have seemed.

I was one of the original developers of the native ibm_db2 driver for PHP. I
also subscribed to the internal mailing list at that time, because I wanted to
work on PHP itself. Unfortunately most developers started to be quite
condescending in this list and thus I never really posted anything to that list.

-- 
regards Helmut K. C. Tessarek
lookup http://sks.pkqs.net for KeyID 0xC11F128D

/*
   Thou shalt not follow the NULL pointer for chaos and madness
   await thee at its end.
*/

-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

Re: [PHP] Re: Reaching the PHP mailing list owners

[Helmut Tessarek]

Hi Daniel,

Do you see what I mean by condescending?

On 12.10.12 14:45 , Matijn Woudt wrote:
> Did you really need to use that many words? The answer is pretty
> simple, he's using a crappy mail server..
> 

-- 
regards Helmut K. C. Tessarek
lookup http://sks.pkqs.net for KeyID 0xC11F128D

/*
   Thou shalt not follow the NULL pointer for chaos and madness
   await thee at its end.
*/

-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php