[opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture
Hi, first post on this mailing list. So I wake up this morning and I Login to SL using Snowstorm and I am instantly annoyed it's not Emerald. I got to thinking on the subject of viewers, secondlife and the general usage thereof. There are many different user types, new residents, power users, lindens, developers etc. Yet there are only a limited number of Viewers and TPV that you can pick from. X number of holes for a potentially unlimited number of blocks to fit into. I know this has been suggested before as friends have suggested it. Why not make the viewer more Modular? Introduce a plugin architecture. Allow any user to "build" their own client that fits their needs and requirements. If you look at the lists of features that are currently available to people and then try fit them to the different user stories how do you justify that? So for example. We take a look at the "New Resident" profile. They arrive in Second Life. No community gateway and only wiki/kb to assist them. They have this big program to learn.. How much of this could be stripped out to plugins to reduce the UI cliff that they have just ran into. Very simple starting example here. LSL editor. How many users (not just new users) actually code? This "program" could be taken out and made into a plugin. Likewise with the edit windows. New users could quite happily do without having a full edit window. Maybe just reduce that to a "fitting" window for attachments. Have a basic window with Pos/Rot/Scale. Both these examples are something that different user stories would need, but just confuse things for the new user, then as the user becomes familiar with what they want they can get plugins to enable them to take on different roles. Say then want to start making attachments. They would goto the plugin repository and get the "advanced edit" window. Later down the line they decide they want to get themselves some land and do some landscaping they'd go back to the repository and get themselves the "land tools" plugin. This is just a very simple case study for how this system would appear to the users. I guess it wouldn't be to hard to supply clients with plugin bundles. Different user profiles could get the basic stripped down vanilla client with a specific set of plugins tailored to their requirements, going right through to a full official client with all the plugins to have a client that is as capable as the current clients. I think given this structure, third party plugins over third party viewers would become far more common place. If you look through the feature requests list for snowstorm. Half the items on that list are features that come direct from Emerald. In terms of keeping an eye on things it would be a lot easier for LL too. If a system were set in place where the source of the plugins were uploaded to LL for addition into the plugin repository the Labs could check through the code before compiling and getting the LL seal of approval. As opposed to the current system of TPV where a new viewer is compiled by one person from a team and the whole system relies on trust of that one person (ref. emerald). Anyways, my two pence on the whole viewer thing ;) Talia ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture
Well this is taking things quite a bit further than I envisioned for this. What Glen is suggesting here seems more like having stuff like java and flash installed for a browser. Where I was going with this was mainly just with the UI. The UI system code be further cut into pieces which was where I was going with this. So take the LSL editor for example. I'd say that the vast majority of people within Second Life don't ever code. So what is the point of having that in the "basic" client? strip that out totally and then offer a plugin/extention that would reintroduce an lsl editor to people if they so choose. You could additionally have say the emerald lsl-editor as an additional plugin featuring extra features (like the prebuilt extra scripts and cases). There are so many things in the basic client that I really doubt people actually bother to use. Windlight editors, (as I said before) a large amount of the standard edit window, estate management tools, etc etc This is just stripping out what we have in the current viewers. Really getting back to basics as 2.0 "tried" to do. I think once we have a firm foundation that is simple enough for a new user not to get scared then that is what is going to keep user retention up. Once there is that with the viewer and a plugin system that can cater to more experienced users the sky really is the limit. Plugin development is a much easier task for developers than viewer development. Currently there is a small number of developers that work towards new viewer. Either highly dedicated individuals (kirtsen) or groups (emerald or imprudence). As Morgaine said viewers are "monolithic". Plugins are so much less daunting for most developers to build. Old style viewers had this all out in the open, which was great for power users of Secondlife and probably the main reason behind emeralds prevalence in the viewer market. Everything a long term user wanted was right there. 2.0 tried to keep this functionality but at the same time bury enough of the more complicated stuff in menus so that new users were not scared, that doesn't really solve either issue. New users as they dig further keep finding new stuff and are probably left with a sense of "How much further do I keep digging before I get this program?". Older users are left with the annoyance of having to dig when they are used to everything being right there. (I know I am) So in this nice pluggable future, as a quick case study, lets take a look at communications. Currently we have Local, IM and Group. - Emerald explored the possibility of using IRC too (personally I never used it). There is another plugin. - In the snowstorm backlog there is mention of a skype intergration (personally I switch to skype for long conversations as it's more reliable than vivox). Another plugin! - Moving on from there.. XMPP? (again I use gchat to talk with people people can't always get inworld and lets face it im>email is not exactly the best option). - How about some microblogging? twitter panel maybe? - And if we are really going the social route.. what about full open social intergration ala facebook apps? (Talia is currently dancing at so n' so location [slurl]... Talia is planning to goto X event [Link]) Very quickly you start getting some very nice integration with many other services. So many plugins spring to mind when you start look at the SL viewer as a modular system. You could have say for example "plugin bundles" so say you could have a scripter bundle (lsl editor, script debuging tools eg, avatar scripts from emerald, script times in estate tools etc etc). Could have social networking bundles? say a twitter user bundle giving you a twitter stream in your communications area, Twit this tools on events windows, parcel details and personal profiles, maybe even snapshots to twitpic? How about google junkies bundle.. xmpp gchat for you comms, lots of nice "buzz this" (shudders) features dropped into the interface, "add to my calendar" buttons for events, snapshot to picassa. Long story short here. I don't believe it's possible to make a viewer that covers all users. Every user has different use criteria Trying to fit every peg into a round hole just ends up with broken pegs. T On 4 September 2010 03:54, Glen Canaday wrote: > > > > > this is why now all code is public and following few step you can > > contribute all code you want... a optional switchable theme/UI/XUI can > > be merged giving to all residents the freedom to choose the aspect on > > monitor (viewer 1.x style too). > > > > Is hard take LL base code, patch it, merge a LL-next-version to fit > > newfeatures and patch again everything, i think this way to work is > > great why all can fit a features (a single click in setup panel > > enable/disable it maybe...) without care to merge everytime a new > > features will be implemented by LL > > Like I said... lots of ideas, but not enough geek nor enough singlehood > to commit as
Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture
Okay so this plugin talk has got me thinking.. I tend to think visually and wasn't sure on if this mailing list dealt with images or not so I just blogged the idea instead. http://www.talia-tokugawa.co.uk/snowstorm-plugin-concepts-calendar/ <http://www.talia-tokugawa.co.uk/snowstorm-plugin-concepts-calendar/>I intend to write a series of ideas (thinking twitter plugin is next) And yes Glen.. Something like Maya, maybe not changing the entire interface dependant on what your working on, But the ability to bolt bits on so to speak and for the parts to integrate with each other. I guess more like plugins and scripts worked in Maya rather than the task dependant views. As you say with the renderer. It might be cool to have the main window display SL as we know it now but be able to get something like an advanced minimap in 2d that you could plugin as a replacement for the default graphics engine. Something to enable people with lesser machines to still be able to interact with the work. As the text based viewer have shown in the past it's perfectly feasible for people to interact with SL with minimal graphical fluff. Tal On 4 September 2010 16:32, Glen Canaday wrote: > On Sat, 2010-09-04 at 13:28 +0100, Talia Tokugawa wrote: > > Well this is taking things quite a bit further than I envisioned for > > this. What Glen is suggesting here seems more like having stuff like > > java and flash installed for a browser. > > Actually, nowhere near that! That's what people on the list seem to be > thinking of. What I've been thinking of for months is far more radical. > A browser can't change out its rendering engine or parser while still > connected to the website. This could and that's the idea. > > What you're talking about seems much like how Maya was set up (at least > in 7.0 when I last saw it), or at least the concept. You switched entire > menu groups depending on the task (modeling, animating, etc.). You mean > switching UI styles according to skill level. Understandable... is one > of the things I was going for. > > --GC > > > ___ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
[opensource-dev] Chat issues
Hey, is this just me? In Snowstorm every so often in chat the last character on a line of text is replaced by a space. Specific example here.. What I see is [12:06] Nerd: got my vot everyone else sees [12:06] Nerd: got my vote I can also copy the line of text and paste it and it will be "vote" not "vot". It's literally just what I see that's wrong. Tal ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
[opensource-dev] Simple thing for snapshots?
I was wondering how easy this'd be to achieve. When I take a snapshot to inventory.. it seems that no matter what size I have my window at the snap ends up as 512*512. Snapshots currently store some information about the snap.. Name: [ Snapshot : parcelname, sim name (pos)] Desc: [ Taken by username at parcelname, simname (pos)] Now this is definitely more useful than the original "Snapshot" that was stored, but I was thinking it would be even more useful to store say the screen resolution in the description field. My first usage idea on this was just for simple inworld picture frames. could get the res of the image from the description and then scale the frame to the correct aspect ratio for the image. This could however be taken a step further as some TPV currently seem to have "Preview Aspect Ratio" pulldowns which allow you to set preset aspect ratio for an image. Would be nice if these could pull the aspect ratio from the description so you could get your images at the correct aspect ratio. T ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Lindens way ahead of us
Not to mention LSL control of Windlight.. ((server side windlight control?)) "Anti Creepy" stuff, I lock my underwear on to prevent wardrobe malfunction, so thanks to RLV I am less likely to end up in an embarrassing situation that without it. Force TP could also be used as an alternative to TP home on death. Allowing for people to be teleported to an RP start point as opposed there home location. RLV has so much potential but due to it's initial uses people discard it out of hand without considering what else it could be used for. T On 27 September 2010 05:47, Tigro Spottystripes < tigrospottystri...@gmail.com> wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA512 > > Only objects you own can do stuff to you, in order to have other people > do stuff to you you would have to have a relay object owned by you > listening to what other people say and then acting on it. The forcing > teleport thing, it's not forcing you, it's forcing the client, so you > could for example, type "/tp mom's place" and without having to click > anything you tp to the landmark you named "mom's place", the force > sitting, you could for example wear a transformer avatar, and when you > transform into a mortorcycle you automaticly sit on an invisible > motorcycle vehicle automaticly rezzed and drive around like a real > (virtual) motorcycle (since avs can't turn etc as needed unless sitting > on somthing). > > If you don't have any RLV objects you own nearby, even if you have RLV > functionality enabled, things will be pretty much as if the client > didn't had any piece of RLV related code in it. > > On 27/9/2010 00:48, Erin Mallory wrote: > > "RLV adds a lot of useful features scripters can take advantage of just > > like I mentioned previously like force sitting and force teliporting > > can be great for automating things like rides and tours or even huds > > for combat that can send you to other parts of a sim or detach weapons > > or really anything you can imagine." > > > > That's just creepy. I cannot think of a single legitimate reason I would > need to be force teleported anywhere except possibly by a linden. > > Linden teleports were already built into the viewer. Why would I need or > want a combat system to disarm me or teleport me? > > If a combat hud could disarm me, then so could someone that made a hacked > hud to cheat with. And whose to say it would stop with weapons? > > Sorry, I see way too much potential for abuse and not enough for gains. > there are already systems in place for tours with teleportation systems that > don't need rlv scripts to work. > > > > > > > >> Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 23:37:07 -0400 > >> Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Lindens way ahead of us > >> From: m...@inworlddesigns.com > >> To: angel_of_crim...@hotmail.com > >> CC: opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com > >> > >> Actually there is no way to turn it on in other peoples viewers if its > >> in their viewer. If someone told you that they mislead you. The on/off > >> is whatever you set it too, no body else can change that short of > >> hacking your computer. There is no backend or hidden code or anything > >> like that. I have yet to see a TPV that has any such feature. > >> > >> RLV adds a lot of useful features scripters can take advantage of just > >> like I mentioned previously like force sitting and force teliporting > >> can be great for automating things like rides and tours or even huds > >> for combat that can send you to other parts of a sim or detach weapons > >> or really anything you can imagine. Please be careful repeating things > >> you've herd false information can be very damaging and hinder very > >> good progress. Personally I would rather see RLV over breast physics > >> but then again thats just me :P > >> > >> On Sun, Sep 26, 2010 at 11:30 PM, Erin Mallory > >> wrote: > >> > yeah, I've had it on by default in a couple viewers i tried, and in > > one of > >> > those it claimed to be off. and there's ways to turn it on other > > people's > >> > viewers without them even knowing. I do not understand why LL would > > include > >> > RLV into a viewer. > >> > > >> > > >> > Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 21:00:14 -0600 > >> > Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Lindens way ahead of us > >> > From: ilana.debe...@gmail.com > >> > To: angel_of_crim...@hotmail.com > >> > > >> > Don't panic. If you don't turn RLV on or you don't wear an RLV relay > it > >> > absolutely CAN NOT affect you > >> > On Sep 26, 2010 8:56 PM, "Erin Mallory" > > >> > wrote: > >> >> > >> >> Yay for breast physics, but PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE say that RLV is > > NOT being > >> >> added > >> >> RLV is just scary and I will look for a tvp without it before I allow > >> >> others to take my clothes off with an RLV trap... > >> >> > >> >> Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 19:37:30 -0700 > >> >> From: miss_c...@yahoo.com > >> >> To: opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com > >> >> Subject: [opensource-dev] Lindens way ahead of us > >> >> > >> >>
