Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

[Joe Miller]

Tateru,

You can continue down this road if you wish, but the facts are the
words in 13.3 do not become effective for Residents who had registered
before March 31, 2010 until April 30 2010.  (See the blog post here
with additional words to that effect.)  The updated TOS text was pushed
to everyone so they would have the benefit of a full 30 days to review
it before acknowledging formal acceptance of it by accessing the system
after April 30.  

So, please, do not add to the rhetoric here by telling me about
contract law, charges of fraud, coercion or whatever point you're
trying to make.  The TOS in force today was the agreement accepted by
all Residents of record prior to March 31.  After April 30, everything
you say about section 13.3 in the new TOS is reasonably accurate.

The purpose of my brown bag is to talk about the new TPV policy and the
concerns raised by several members of the open source community.  I
intend to listen to listen to all reasonable proposals to address those
concerns.  Those who do not wish to participate in that synchronous
event can email me instead if they so choose.   Again, I'm looking
forward to a productive exchange of specific ideas to address specific
shared concerns, whether at these meetings or via some other channel.

If you have nothing to offer, there is no reason to come.

-- Joe


Tateru Nino wrote:

  
That clear statement is inadmissible by the terms of the TOS §13.3, I'm
afraid, which disclaims such as not being a valid part of the
agreement. No part of the agreement that is made admissible by §13.3
suggests or implies any commencement date other than immediately.
  
Nor does it permit any explanation, FAQ, supplement, or discussion to
be considered relevant (except as provided, which none have been).
Boilerplate it may be, but it is binding boilerplate. It could say that
"This agreement grants you a lifetime supply of banana custard", but
that's not actually in there. It would be an assurance that is
disclaimed within the agreement. §10.3 absolves the Lab and its
representatives of charges of fraud if they say something about the
agreements that aren't strictly speaking true, in order to obtain
agreement.
  
As a general rule for contracts and agreements (leaving aside the TPVP,
the TOS, and Linden Lab for a moment), it's widely considered remiss to
act based on inadmissible representations or explanations of a contract
from the other party to the actual agreement. That's the sort
of thing lawyers warn you not to do.
  
  
On 9/04/2010 3:32 PM, Joe Linden wrote:
  Of course you can.  The ToS presented at login clearly
states it becomes effective on 4/30.  In the meantime, you continue to
use the service under the terms of the prior ToS which doesn't contain
the TPV provisions.  If one has issues with the prior ToS agreement,
and hasn't previously accepted those terms, then I agree, this meeting
isn't for you.

-- joe

On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 7:32 PM, Boy Lane 
wrote:
Thanks
Joe.
  
Unfortunately one can not attend without going inworld and accepting
ToS/TPV in the first place.
  
  
  -
Original Message - Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 13:24:57 -0700
From: Joe Linden 
Subject: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV
next Tuesday (4/13)
To: OpenSource-Dev 
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Hello, all.  I've been reading the ongoing commentary here, on various
blogs, irc, and in-world groups about the recently introduced Third
Party
Viewer Policy and Directory and I'd like to host an "office hour" or
informal brown bag to make the conversation a little more synchronous
for
those who are interested.  I plan to hold three of these over the next
couple of weeks, at times that might be friendlier for some than
others, but
the first one will happen next Tuesday, 4/13 at noon PDT.  I'd like to
address questions about the intent of the policy, how we will be using
the
Directory going forward, and see if I can gather the specific concerns
that
have been raised by the community over the past several weeks.  It'll
be an
informal Q&A session, held in voice, at this location:

http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Linden%20Estate%20Services/229/230/29

No RSVP needed, and feel free to rebroadcast the invite to others you
think
would benefit from open dialog around the subject.

I hope to see many of you there next week.

-- Joe
  
  
  




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  -- 
Tateru Nino
http://dwellonit.taterunino.net/
  
  

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Polic

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV next Tuesday (4/13)

[Joe Miller]

Henri,

Sorry you can't participate.

-- Joe

Henri Beauchamp wrote:

  On Thu, 8 Apr 2010 13:24:57 -0700, Joe Linden wrote:

  
  
It'll be an informal Q&A session,

  
  
What's the point if problems are not actually *addessed* and if
it's just about trying to reassure people without any written
warrantee given on LL's side ?

  
  
held in voice, at this location:

  
  
Voice is a no-no for me. Being French, I can't speak and understand
spoken English (and worst, American English...) well and fast enough
to hold a conversation in voice.

Henri Beauchamp.
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Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

[Joe Miller]

Boy,

So it's sounds like you won't be able to join me.  Sorry to hear that.

-- joe

Boy Lane wrote:

  
  
  
  Joe,
   
  You probably did not read the terms
I have to agree upon login yourself. Otherwise you'd have found a
better answer to the concern raised.
   
  It is not about time or any dates of
policies to become effective. It is about acceptance of unacceptable
terms.
   
  I can not accept the new ToS without
accepting TPV, and the latter was the one you said you would like to
discuss? You don't create facts in the first place to eventually
negotiate them later. TPV is unacceptaple and if you are really
interested in an open and unhindered discussion you should find a
discussion medium that allows for this. The beta grid would be such an
option.
   
  Boy
    
  
-
Original Message - 
From:
Joe Linden 
To:
Boy Lane 
Cc:
opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com

Sent:
Friday, April 09, 2010 1:32 PM
Subject:
Re: Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV


Of course you can.  The ToS presented at login clearly states it
becomes effective on 4/30.  In the meantime, you continue to use the
service under the terms of the prior ToS which doesn't contain the TPV
provisions.  If one has issues with the prior ToS agreement, and hasn't
previously accepted those terms, then I agree, this meeting isn't for
you.

-- joe

On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 7:32 PM, Boy Lane 
wrote:
Thanks
Joe.
  
Unfortunately one can not attend without going inworld and accepting
ToS/TPV in the first place.
  
  
  -
Original Message - Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 13:24:57 -0700
From: Joe Linden 
Subject: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV
next Tuesday (4/13)
To: OpenSource-Dev 
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Hello, all.  I've been reading the ongoing commentary here, on various
blogs, irc, and in-world groups about the recently introduced Third
Party
Viewer Policy and Directory and I'd like to host an "office hour" or
informal brown bag to make the conversation a little more synchronous
for
those who are interested.  I plan to hold three of these over the next
couple of weeks, at times that might be friendlier for some than
others, but
the first one will happen next Tuesday, 4/13 at noon PDT.  I'd like to
address questions about the intent of the policy, how we will be using
the
Directory going forward, and see if I can gather the specific concerns
that
have been raised by the community over the past several weeks.  It'll
be an
informal Q&A session, held in voice, at this location:

http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Linden%20Estate%20Services/229/230/29

No RSVP needed, and feel free to rebroadcast the invite to others you
think
would benefit from open dialog around the subject.

I hope to see many of you there next week.

-- Joe
  
  
  



  



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http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
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Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

[Joe Miller]

No apology necessary.  I just wanted to restate that if TPV authors are
staying away from this meeting because of some perceived "catch-22" on
acceptance of the updated TOS, that shouldn't be an issue as they are
governed by the TOS in effect prior to 3/31.

Tateru Nino wrote:

  
My apologies, Joe - I'll email you directly.
  
On 10/04/2010 1:28 AM, Joe Miller wrote:
  

Tateru,

You can continue down this road if you wish, but the facts are the
words in 13.3 do not become effective for Residents who had registered
before March 31, 2010 until April 30 2010.  (See the blog post here
with additional words to that effect.)  The updated TOS text was pushed
to everyone so they would have the benefit of a full 30 days to review
it before acknowledging formal acceptance of it by accessing the system
after April 30.  

So, please, do not add to the rhetoric here by telling me about
contract law, charges of fraud, coercion or whatever point you're
trying to make.  The TOS in force today was the agreement accepted by
all Residents of record prior to March 31.  After April 30, everything
you say about section 13.3 in the new TOS is reasonably accurate.

The purpose of my brown bag is to talk about the new TPV policy and the
concerns raised by several members of the open source community.  I
intend to listen to listen to all reasonable proposals to address those
concerns.  Those who do not wish to participate in that synchronous
event can email me instead if they so choose.   Again, I'm looking
forward to a productive exchange of specific ideas to address specific
shared concerns, whether at these meetings or via some other channel.

If you have nothing to offer, there is no reason to come.

-- Joe


Tateru Nino wrote:

  
That clear statement is inadmissible by the terms of the TOS §13.3, I'm
afraid, which disclaims such as not being a valid part of the
agreement. No part of the agreement that is made admissible by §13.3
suggests or implies any commencement date other than immediately.
  
Nor does it permit any explanation, FAQ, supplement, or discussion to
be considered relevant (except as provided, which none have been).
Boilerplate it may be, but it is binding boilerplate. It could say that
"This agreement grants you a lifetime supply of banana custard", but
that's not actually in there. It would be an assurance that is
disclaimed within the agreement. §10.3 absolves the Lab and its
representatives of charges of fraud if they say something about the
agreements that aren't strictly speaking true, in order to obtain
agreement.
  
As a general rule for contracts and agreements (leaving aside the TPVP,
the TOS, and Linden Lab for a moment), it's widely considered remiss to
act based on inadmissible representations or explanations of a contract
from the other party to the actual agreement. That's the sort
of thing lawyers warn you not to do.
  
  
On 9/04/2010 3:32 PM, Joe Linden wrote:
  Of course you can.  The ToS presented at login clearly
states it becomes effective on 4/30.  In the meantime, you continue to
use the service under the terms of the prior ToS which doesn't contain
the TPV provisions.  If one has issues with the prior ToS agreement,
and hasn't previously accepted those terms, then I agree, this meeting
isn't for you.

-- joe

On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 7:32 PM, Boy
Lane <boy.l...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
Thanks
Joe.
  
Unfortunately one can not attend without going inworld and accepting
ToS/TPV in the first place.
  
  
  -
Original
Message - Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 13:24:57 -0700
From: Joe Linden <j...@lindenlab.com>
Subject: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV
next Tuesday (4/13)
To: OpenSource-Dev <opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com>
Message-ID:
<v2k6b9495c41004081324ibd5ec762zb8d098a09c7f0...@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Hello, all.  I've been reading the ongoing commentary here, on various
blogs, irc, and in-world groups about the recently introduced Third
Party
Viewer Policy and Directory and I'd like to host an "office hour" or
informal brown bag to make the conversation a little more synchronous
for
those who are interested.  I plan to hold three of these over the next
couple of weeks, at times that might be friendlier for some than
others, but
the first one will happen next Tuesday, 4/13 at noon PDT.  I'd like to
address questions about the intent of the policy, how we will be using
the
Directory going forward, and see if I can gather the specific concerns
that
have been raised by the community over the past several weeks.  It'll
be an
informal Q&A session, held in voice, at this location:

http://maps.secondlife.com/secondli

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV next Tuesday (4/13)

[Joe Miller]

Morgaine,

Thanks for asking.  My interest is to listen to specific concerns
voiced by the majority of the community and (more importantly)
take proposed solutions to those concerns under
advisement before the policy becomes effective on April 30.  It won't
be very productive for anyone if it's just a grousing session about
legal theory or hypothetical situations that may or may not occur in
the future.  Yes, I will take all serious proposals back into the
company for serious consideration.  But, make no mistake, I'm not
asking for a change set that makes one person happier at a time.  I'm
looking for the minimum change set that represents the broadest
possible consensus among the community of TPV authors.

So, yours are good questions, and I do intend to champion the TPV
community's collective voice in this process.  I hope we emerge with
something actionable out of these meetings.

-- Joe

Morgaine wrote:
Joe, nowhere do you say that you are going to feed the
community response back to the people who drafted the TPV, in order to
seek change.  Was that implied?  Nor do you say that you are going to
champion the TPV community's needs with the appropriate Lindens after
your 3 meetings.  Was that implied?
  
Although I would like to think that both of the above were implied,
your paragraph does not actually say that.  It can also be read as
intending nothing more than a one-way process of explaining the intent
to us, calming the restless natives as it were.  Could you please quash
this ungenerous reading, and state that your intention is indeed to get
the TPV document improved, and that you will do what you can to make
that happen?
  
  
Morgaine.
  
  
  
  
  
==
  
  On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 9:24 PM, Joe Linden 
wrote:
  Hello,
all.  I've been reading the ongoing commentary here, on various blogs,
irc, and in-world groups about the recently introduced Third Party
Viewer Policy and Directory and I'd like to host an "office hour" or
informal brown bag to make the conversation a little more synchronous
for those who are interested.  I plan to hold three of these over the
next couple of weeks, at times that might be friendlier for some than
others, but the first one will happen next Tuesday, 4/13 at noon PDT. 
I'd like to address questions about the intent of the policy, how we
will be using the Directory going forward, and see if I can gather the
specific concerns that have been raised by the community over the past
several weeks.  It'll be an informal Q&A session, held in voice, at
this location: 

http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Linden%20Estate%20Services/229/230/29

No RSVP needed, and feel free to rebroadcast the invite to others you
think would benefit from open dialog around the subject.

I hope to see many of you there next week.

-- Joe

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Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting
privileges
  
  
  



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Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges