Re: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers?
*'like the entire world being a 4 x 4 inch area to work from in the middle of my 22" widescreen with great big blacked-out edges to fill-in around that 4 x 4 inch area.'* * * The issue above is most likely a display driver issue with your current configuration. I wouldn't think that this is an issue with the 2.X platform. I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by Douglas Adams On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 6:13 PM, Andromeda Quonset < andromedaquon...@gmail.com> wrote: > Sighs. I see you misunderstood. Perhaps I have, too, in usage of > the word "Resident". > > In my post, where I referenced "Andromeda Resident", change that to > "Andromeda DisplayName" > > In a script that has been compiled to use a new function, presumably > compiled under a 2.X viewer, when an AV that is logged-in under a 1.X > viewer, and activates the script compiled under 2.X, will need to > have results returned to him based on a 1.X compilation, and not a > 2.X compilation in order to not cause a runtime error. > > I doubt I will be doing any scripting anytime soon in a Client 2 > environment, given the major issues I have with viewer, like the > entire world being a 4 x 4 inch area to work from in the middle of my > 22" widescreen with great big blacked-out edges to fill-in around > that 4 x 4 inch area. And there is the issue of the script editor > being seriously broken. Can't edit scripts without a script > editor. And there is the issue of doing an uninstall of the 2.X > client, and having it delete 5 years of chat dialog as it tidies up > after itself. > > Best thing as I see it is to not implement it. Maybe in 2012 we can > look revisit it. > > At 04:54 PM 8/17/2010, you wrote: > >This is correct. Andromeda Quonset will be Andromeda Quonset forever. > >At some point, new residents won't be able to choose a last name - > >only these will be "Resident" > > > >No existing script function will return different results than it does > >today. New script functions are added for fetching/referencing Display > >Names. > > > >On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 3:47 PM, Erik Anderson > > wrote: > > > My interpretation of what was said is that the script using a 2.X > viewer > > > would NOT say "Andromeda Resident", SL is just stating that users in > the > > > future will not be asked for a last name when they sign up, all new > users > > > after that point would have a last name of "Resident", which the > > 2.X viewers > > > would likely hide. > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 3:45 PM, Andromeda Quonset > > > wrote: > > >> > > >> It appears to me that if I create a script using viewer 1.X, it will > > >> show as being created by Andromeda Quonset. It also appears to me > > >> that if I create the same script using a 2.X viewer, that it will say > > >> it was created by Andromeda Resident. > > > > > > > > > ___ > > > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > > > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > > > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > > > privileges > > > > > > > > > > >-- > >Brian McGroarty | Linden Lab > >Sent from my Newton MP2100 via acoustic coupler > > ___ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Malicious payloads in third-party viewers: is the policy worth anything?
I hate to say this but, it has nothing to do with who they are focusing the attack on its is the fact that they used there users machines with out there consent, this is a clear violation of US law and can be investigated by FBI/NSA with punishment up to 10 years in jail, not to mention a clear violation of the TOS. But i guess that is the way that i see it. I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by Douglas Adams On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 10:24 AM, Discrete Dreamscape < discrete.dreamsc...@gmail.com> wrote: > Actually, I prefer to remember him as: > > 1) The guy who hacked Emerald's servers before discovering the data > storage issue and > > 2) The active developer of a malicious viewer under the lolguise of > promoting exploit/bugfixing. > > But hey, they keep antagonizing him, so of course this kind of thing > continues. > > > Discrete > > > On Aug 21, 2010, at 11:10 AM, Brian McGroarty wrote: > > > On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 7:46 AM, Discrete Dreamscape > > wrote: > >> This was one person's decision, and was deliberately done for the sole > >> purpose of messing with the owner of the victim site (although I'd > >> hardly call the particular individual a victim). Regardless, the team > >> was pretty disappointed. The one person currently owns all parts of > >> Emerald's hosting, so it was their decision, albeit a ridiculous one. > >> They don't take the project seriously, and it's more than a little > >> embarrassing to the rest of the people associated with the team that > >> this kind of thing keeps happening, over and over again. > > > > Appreciated - it's helpful to have this put plainly and publicly. > > > > Am I right that the target server belongs to the guy who: > > > > 1) Was interviewed in a previous blog write-up about the IP & username > > database and geolocation tool that he sought to show was built up for > > Emerald Point visitors, Insilico visitors, and people creating > > accounts via the Modular Systems website? > > > > 2) Demonstrated that Emerald wasn't removing usernames from paths > > before embedding them in textures even after the team's first > > attempted fix? > > > > I know we already talked to the team and set some conditions after the > > first one. The second one's been explained as a mistake that Modular > > Systems would be willing to publicly acknowledge and correct - the > > potential for collecting usernames would have to be in the viewer's > > privacy policy otherwise, and it isn't to date. But that one of these > > incidents was history and the second was supposed to be a mistake made > > the hidden request activity all the more confusing. > > > > -- > > Brian McGroarty | Linden Lab > > Sent from my Newton MP2100 via acoustic coupler > ___ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Malicious payloads in third-party viewers: is the policy worth anything?
this has been put many ways and this is the clearest it can be put. FC quits, hands off to Arabella (read the sandbox dialogs to gauge her reliability), FC creates new account with new name, make some meaningless webserver changes, FC comes back with a new name, lather/rinse/repeat. They have proved that they can not be trusted. I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by Douglas Adams On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 12:20 PM, Robert Martin wrote: > On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 10:56 AM, JB Hancroft > wrote: > > If the TPVP really matters, we'll see Emerald shut down from the TPVP > > program, because of this accumulated nonsense. > > If not, then it confirms that it's all just a paper chase. > > actually lets see whats going on here > 1 the whole texture thing was due to the viewers install folder being > baked into textures > IF THIS IS LEFT AS DEFAULT then very little info is actually given the > problem is some folks were doing installs into their own home folder > (somebody did not account for that) > > 2 the whole login screen edit was mostly the person in question err > being "drunk" at the time and not going back to fix/revert his editing > (btw he is in fact stepping down and surrendering the domain) > > I would say that since 1 the problems are being fixed 2 former lindens > (from the recent "Night of Glass" set of layoffs) are now being hired > as part of the E-Team this is a closed issue > > -- > Robert L Martin > Phox whenish is the next beta coming out and is 2439 being blocked?? > ___ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers.
It is there grid that you are connecting too with the viewer of your choice, so yea it is there business. As much as we all want to think that sl is open source, there is only parts of it that are. Im sure no one is going to stop you from using and open grid with emerald. I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by Douglas Adams On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 4:42 PM, Aleric Inglewood wrote: > I'm not happy to say it, but I can't help myself... > > I told you so > > When LL announced the TPV list, it was already clear to me > that they want to control what viewer can connect and that > this was the beginning of whitelist. Soon every viewer that > is not derived from their holy "2.0" will be blocked. > > On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 11:39 PM, Tom Grimshaw wrote: > > Dear Linden Lab, > > > > It's absolutely none of your business what software I choose to run on > > my PC. > > > > Blocking emerald is a step of pure arrogance - and ignorance - on Linden > > Lab's behalf - it's not having an adverse effect on your servers, in > > fact THE ONLY WAY you can tell i'm runing Emerald is by the channel and > > version provided in login, and this has been proven by the number of > > clones that have popped up with their channel renamed (and the ID > > texture changed of course). You cannot censor Open Source software, and > > the fact that you're trying to makes you a despicable organisation. > > > > Stop policing my computer. I will decide what viewer I use, thank you. > > > > ~T > > ___ > > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > > > ___ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] The Plan for Snowglobe
I would like to know 2 things, as an observer. You continue to make statements like 'TPV developers' as if you speak for them all. Secondly, I distinctly remember you saying goodbye to us all, Is this your Hi im back statement? This isn't meant to be offensive im just trying to understand where your coming from. I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by Douglas Adams On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 5:30 PM, Henri Beauchamp wrote: > On Fri, 10 Sep 2010 12:22:25 -0400, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: > > > On 2010-09-09 7:15, Aidan Thornton wrote: > > > On 9/8/10, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: > > >> * Take down the Snowglobe subversion repository > > > That's going to be kinda obnoxious, because it means non-Linden Labs > > > developers won't be able to look back at what was changed in > > > Snowglobe, when and why. There will still be mainstream 1.23-based > > > viewers by then unless Linden Labs does something incredibly brilliant > > > or something incredibly stupid, and they'll still have a use for the > > > Snowglobe version control history. > > > > Viewer developers should be thinking now about how to migrate to the new > > code base so that you can support your features and interfaces with the > > new underlying capabilities (and there are more coming) > > Viewer developers will not consider migrating to the viewer 2 code base > for many months, because it's simply easier for them to port the few > interesting new features of viewer 2 to viewer 1, than to redo the whole > UI of viewer 2 to match their user base expectations and needs. > > I already ported the Tattoo and Alpha wearables months ago to the Cool > VL Viewer (and most TPVs now reuse my patch), and the inventory item > links support a few weeks ago. I'll work next on multiple attachments > per point. > > With Snowglobe v1.5 as the code base and the above cited backports, > you already have a better viewer than viewer 2, with a better stability > and higher frame rates... > > > and superior stability that the new code base has. > > ROFLOL > > You are kidding, aren't you ?... If not, then please try using a good > TPV and see how many times it crashes in a week... 0 for the Cool VL > Viewer (and I'm using it every day). Fact is that TPVs got fixes that > v1.23.5 doesn't have and that makes them MUCH stabler than 1.23.5, and > v2 (which is even worst, stability-wise, than v1.23.5 !). The reason > is simple: should I crash, I trace the crash down and fix the code. > Crash gone ! > > > Eventually (and there is _no_ plan for when this will be - certainly > > longer than 3 months), it will no longer be possible for us to continue > > to support viewers based on the 1.x code base (including our own), and > > we'll stop. > > By then, all the required changes will be ported to the v1 codebase > and migrating to v2 will still be unnecessary... This could go like > that for at least one or even two years before the backports become > too cumbersome to be worth staying with v1. I know it first hand, > since I did just that with the Cool VL Viewer v1.19. > > > Well before this happens, we'll have a public discussion > > about it, and about what must be supported to remain compatible. If you > > have moved to and stayed reasonably current with the 2.x code base, then > > it will be a non-event for you. > > Again, TPV developers are not going to bother with v2 unless YOU, Linden > Lab, change your stance on the UI and do accept reversals to the v1 way, > where needed. > > Henri. > ___ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] The Plan for Snowglobe
Fair enough, but the simple fact is that the interface needs to be changed so that they can reclaim more of the sign ups to the grid. The last numbers i have read on the learning curve is something like 70% of the users that sign up leave because they have troubles with the interface. And we must also consider that this is a business and LL needs to make good to keep the grid alive. I would sugest that we try to improve the interface and make the viewer more usable for all. Kirsten has done a great job modifying the 2.X platform, and she seems to be moving it forward. I do agree that the new interface is clunky and it needs work but as it compares to the 1.x it is much improved. And it was my mistake. I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by Douglas Adams On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 7:13 PM, Henri Beauchamp wrote: > On Fri, 10 Sep 2010 18:27:32 -0500, dilly dobbs wrote: > > > I would like to know 2 things, as an observer. You continue to make > > statements like 'TPV developers' as if you speak for them all. > > > > Secondly, I distinctly remember you saying goodbye to us all, Is this > your > > Hi im back statement? > > > > This isn't meant to be offensive im just trying to understand where your > > coming from. > > 1.- TPV developers seem to be agreeing with me (at least, none of >them so far denied it in this list). Same thing if to believe their >own blogs and forums... But for Kirsten and Marine (Kirsten probably >because she values most shadow rendering and other rendering >improvements in v2, and Marine because she always provided >RestrainedLove for the current official viewer), none of them so far >consider moving to the viewer 2 code base in the short term, and >several of them (at least three in this list, me included) seem >pretty much disapointed (to say the least), with LL's stance. >Oh, I also had a look to the mercurial repository for Snowstorm, >and tried to count the TPV developpers who submitted patches... >Even someone amputated with fingers on each hand, could still >count them on one hand... >Plus, in my messages on this list, I merely pointed out how, when >considering the pros and the cons of a move to viewer 2, LL's own >stance on Snowstorm is far from an encouragement to do the move, >and even less to contribute to Snowstorm. > > 2.- You should read my posts better... >I never said I'd leave, much to the contrary (I even said I'd fight >to the last extremity before I would even consider giving up); you >are probably confusing me with Aleric who just left. > > I might be blunt with LL, but they often deserve it, and I always try > to be constructive. I've got "some experience", mind you, both in RL > (counted in decades) and in SL (counted in years)... That's "where I'm > coming from"... > While my prose in this list most often only represents my personal > opinion, it might be of some value, even to LL... and even if they > might well often cringe when reading me. :-P > > Henri. > ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] The Plan for Snowglobe
Ok if its not the interface that is the issue, then i have an other idea also, after speaking to a lot of mmo players they are lost when it comes to second life. Why not have some "quests" to start the game for them. For instance learn to tp to this location to get clothes and put them on. Make it more like a game with a limited number of opening/learning the interface 'quests' so to speak. There has to be some way to keep all of the sign ups. I my self have tried to bring a lot of other mmo players into the grid and there biggest humps is learning the interface and then finding something to do. We have a very valuable mind trust in this group, we should be able to come up with something to hook them so to speak. This would make it better for us all. Just my opinion. I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by Douglas Adams On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 9:05 AM, Tateru Nino wrote: > On 11/09/2010 11:33 PM, Mike Dickson wrote: > >On 09/11/2010 08:03 AM, Tateru Nino wrote: > >> On 11/09/2010 10:25 AM, dilly dobbs wrote: > >>> Fair enough, but the simple fact is that the interface needs to be > >>> changed so that they can reclaim more of the sign ups to the grid. The > >>> last numbers i have read on the learning curve is something like 70% > >>> of the users that sign up leave because they have troubles with the > >>> interface. And we must also consider that this is a business and LL > >>> needs to make good to keep the grid alive. > > [snip] > >> When you read various responses to "Hey, have any of you tried this > >> Second Life thing?" there's usually quite a number of responses from > >> people who did and gave up. Hardly any of them mention the UI as the > >> problem that they had with it. > > I strongly disagree with you there. True its not scientific but I know > > of more than a few people personally who couldn't navigate with the old > > UI and gave up. They recently tried again with viewer 2 and are > > functional and happy. > > > Which is fine, because I also didn't say that the UI *wasn't* a problem. > What I'm saying is that we don't have any trustworthy data about what the > problems are, how prevalent they are, or how the situation can be improved. > > -- > Tateru Nino > http://dwellonit.taterunino.net/ > > ___ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] The Plan for Snowglobe
Agreed but it was never built into the viewer and we kept them on the noob island and well as we all know it was just a bunch of BS truly. and was really no help at all. There has to be some way to accomplish this in a intelligent manner that makes it more like an MMo intro. I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by Douglas Adams On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 10:31 AM, Zi Ree wrote: > Am Samstag 11 September 2010 17:22:33 schrieb dilly dobbs: > > > it more like a game with a limited number of opening/learning the > interface > > 'quests' so to speak. There has to be some way to keep all of the sign > > ups. > > The old orientation islands had all this. It never really worked out. > > Zi > ___ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Retaining Newbies (Was: The Plan for Snowglobe)
See this is what i mean, these are all great ideas, and i think that most of them can be put into practice, we just need to come to some kind of agreement on a plan, and test this plan and make it flexible so it can be changed easily to accommodate the needs that show them selves. Why not try to put a plan together and present them to LL. They want to retain users more than we do. I would think this could take months to come up with a plan but, once in place we could make a good dent in the loss of sign ups no matter what the reason. And i also think if we took our ideas to some of the major designers on the grid they would be more than happy to help. If i am off base please let me know but i think this conversation is moving in a positive direction. I would really like to thank you all for your valuable input. We as users need to save and keep the grid that we all love moving and expanding. I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by Douglas Adams On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 11:26 AM, Bunny Halberd wrote: > On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 7:03 AM, Tateru Nino > wrote: > > > When you read various responses to "Hey, have any of you tried this > > Second Life thing?" there's usually quite a number of responses from > > people who did and gave up. Hardly any of them mention the UI as the > > problem that they had with it. > > I've been in SL since late 2006. I have spent most of that time > helping to run a community that's extremely newbie friendly. (First as > a member, and eventually one of the lead admins.) We fall over > ourselves to help newbies feel welcome into Second Life... it's in our > blood. That's what we do. > > I am fairly convinced that if a newbie can get past whatever the > Newbie Island thing of the month is, make it pass the first folks they > see (that are sometimes there to prey on newbies) and get to a > community like ours, the chance of them staying goes *WAY* up. I'm not > going to venture a guess, but it's WAY better than the general > population. > > > When I talk to newbies about Second Life, and I do this constantly, I > hear two general complaints: > > 1.) My computer can't handle it. (This is, by far, the #1 reason > people leave SL after trying it, I'm convinced. Maybe as high as 90%!) > > 2.) There's nothing to do / I can't find anything to do. > > Our community helps with item #2. We give them something to do - > friendly folks to chat with, events to do, people that are friendly > (instead of hostile) to newbies, and the freedom to go explore and ask > all the questions they want. > > Here's the weird thing - if you can meet criteria #2, they are MUCH > more likely to put up with #1. We have folks that will turn off > drawing avatars (thus turning SL into a glorified chat room with > shared music) when things get busy just so they can be there. (And > yes, we tell them how to do that if they need to.) > > Once folks get familiar with SL and its ways, they start finding all > kinds of other things to do and eventually leave our community, but > I've yet to meet anyone that doesn't look back at us fondly. It makes > me smile when folks come back a year later with friends in tow and say > "this is where I grew up". :) > > > This group can help with item #1. I really think there needs to be a > HUGE effort to make the SL viewer "degrade gracefully." I, as a > community leader, have a computer I keep upgraded just so I can run SL > really well. I have to - it's part of my job. But your average newbie, > with a several year old machine, isn't going to have that. > > Sure, they're not going to see the same thing *I* see, but at least > they'd be there... computers are upgradeable if the person really > wants to stay, and have things look better, but if it's not usable at > all on their machine, they aren't gonna be there in the first place. > > > I think a lot of headway could be made if the open source community > and LL worked together to do two things: > > - Give newbies a fighting chance with a viewer that degrades gracefully. > - Provide an easy pathway for newbies to find groups like ours as > soon as they're first rezzed in. Give them something to do as soon as > they rezz in. Show them how wonderful the SL *PEOPLE* are, not some > cold, sterile orientation program. > > > - Bunny > ___ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Retaining Newbies (Was: The Plan for Snowglobe)
there are also some other concerns, we have people on the grid like the Vampires that pray on n00bs (just an example) and drag them into things that they never intended to be in. Sl is about choices and freedom, i personally see the grid as true freedom of expression. Be it adult or be it RP. These are all personal choices, but in order for for them to make these choices we need to show them how to survive/use on the grid first. I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by Douglas Adams On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 11:34 AM, dilly dobbs wrote: > See this is what i mean, these are all great ideas, and i think that most > of them can be put into practice, we just need to come to some kind of > agreement on a plan, and test this plan and make it flexible so it can be > changed easily to accommodate the needs that show them selves. Why not try > to put a plan together and present them to LL. They want to retain users > more than we do. I would think this could take months to come up with a plan > but, once in place we could make a good dent in the loss of sign ups no > matter what the reason. > > And i also think if we took our ideas to some of the major designers on the > grid they would be more than happy to help. > > > If i am off base please let me know but i think this conversation is moving > in a positive direction. > > I would really like to thank you all for your valuable input. > > We as users need to save and keep the grid that we all love moving and > expanding. > > > I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by > > Douglas Adams > > > On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 11:26 AM, Bunny Halberd wrote: > >> On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 7:03 AM, Tateru Nino >> wrote: >> >> > When you read various responses to "Hey, have any of you tried this >> > Second Life thing?" there's usually quite a number of responses from >> > people who did and gave up. Hardly any of them mention the UI as the >> > problem that they had with it. >> >> I've been in SL since late 2006. I have spent most of that time >> helping to run a community that's extremely newbie friendly. (First as >> a member, and eventually one of the lead admins.) We fall over >> ourselves to help newbies feel welcome into Second Life... it's in our >> blood. That's what we do. >> >> I am fairly convinced that if a newbie can get past whatever the >> Newbie Island thing of the month is, make it pass the first folks they >> see (that are sometimes there to prey on newbies) and get to a >> community like ours, the chance of them staying goes *WAY* up. I'm not >> going to venture a guess, but it's WAY better than the general >> population. >> >> >> When I talk to newbies about Second Life, and I do this constantly, I >> hear two general complaints: >> >> 1.) My computer can't handle it. (This is, by far, the #1 reason >> people leave SL after trying it, I'm convinced. Maybe as high as 90%!) >> >> 2.) There's nothing to do / I can't find anything to do. >> >> Our community helps with item #2. We give them something to do - >> friendly folks to chat with, events to do, people that are friendly >> (instead of hostile) to newbies, and the freedom to go explore and ask >> all the questions they want. >> >> Here's the weird thing - if you can meet criteria #2, they are MUCH >> more likely to put up with #1. We have folks that will turn off >> drawing avatars (thus turning SL into a glorified chat room with >> shared music) when things get busy just so they can be there. (And >> yes, we tell them how to do that if they need to.) >> >> Once folks get familiar with SL and its ways, they start finding all >> kinds of other things to do and eventually leave our community, but >> I've yet to meet anyone that doesn't look back at us fondly. It makes >> me smile when folks come back a year later with friends in tow and say >> "this is where I grew up". :) >> >> >> This group can help with item #1. I really think there needs to be a >> HUGE effort to make the SL viewer "degrade gracefully." I, as a >> community leader, have a computer I keep upgraded just so I can run SL >> really well. I have to - it's part of my job. But your average newbie, >> with a several year old machine, isn't going to have that. >> >> Sure, they're not going to see the same thing *I* see, but at least >> they'd be there... computers are upgradeable if the person really >> wants to stay, and have
Re: [opensource-dev] The Plan for Snowglobe
I have to say that i can not disagree with anything you said. These are all great ideas and we as the devs (well not me , i cant code my way out of a paper bag) need to push things like this to keep the users that we so value. I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by Douglas Adams On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 11:49 AM, wrote: > I think it goes further than that. The trick to making it simple is to > make it so intuitive that the user knows instinctively what to do. This > basically means creating things that we are already familiar with. It is > not intuitive to navigate, need a navigation HUD that is so obvious you know > what to do. The use of inventory is not intuitive and you have to figure > out how to wear stuff, how to take stuff off. What I am even wearing. I > can’t preview easy. Just as an example should be a changing room or > something. How do I know I can do animations, how do I see which ones do > what? The user interface is using a 2D solution that hasn’t evolved in 20 > years. Not intuitive to know where to go. Maps, other things need to be > more familiar. The grid map is so uninteresting and not intuitive. > Showcase and search are not clear. > > > > This whole problem of new user experience is more than viewer 1, or viewer > 2, it has to do with the whole concept of how users understand what they see > and relate that to what they know. Nothing about this interface, except the > actual 3D space is familiar in anyway. I think this is why I find the > viewer 2 UI so disappointing; it brought nothing new to the table on how to > do user-interfaces. > > > > A few things that could help is making the user interface more active, > meaning objects that can do something show they can do something when the > mouse if over them. A Tool tips area on the screen that gives you > information about the object your mouse is over some where on the screen. > Option for descriptive menus that explain option, or short menus. Wizards > that tell you what step you are on. > > > > People say it isn’t a game, but many games have made significant progress > in user interface design, I don’t see any of this being implemented. > > > > All I have heard about viewer 2 UI is it solved some of the technical > issues to maintain the complexity of the UI. I haven’t really heard how it > solves the use cases of the user or content designer. User wears clothes. > User navigates. User puts new object in world, User creates and object. > User finds an object in their inventory. User wants to find something to > do. > > > > Few other notes, is it is stressful to learn something new, need to reward > the user. Give them something, make it fun. Play videos that show them, > then they do it. Don’t know, but lots that can be done. > > > > M. > > > > > -- > > *From:* opensource-dev-boun...@lists.secondlife.com [mailto: > opensource-dev-boun...@lists.secondlife.com] *On Behalf Of *Patnad Babii > *Sent:* Saturday, September 11, 2010 12:18 PM > *To:* opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com > > *Subject:* Re: [opensource-dev] The Plan for Snowglobe > > > > I agree with you Dilly, what i’ve found over time, is that alot of people > just prefer to skip reading, they like things visually and orally. > > > > I’ve found a tutorial by googling quickly > http://www.mmocrunch.com/2010/07/16/microvolts-releases-tutorial-video/, > of what i think would work best for SL’s first exprience. Something built in > the viewer with animations and voice (or not) . > > > > I know they changed orientation island recently (in the last year) i think > it is a good step forward, but apparently it needs more. > > > > Its true that the MMO based tutorial seem to be the appropriate approach > for what SL is, the more guidance the better i would say and always allow > people to skip part of it (if they are ready, let them just go). > > > > I see the tutorial as some kind of a checklist, where you have the > different checkpoint, like Navigation, Inventory, Clothing, Purchasing and > if they are willing enought they could even try the building tutorial were > they are shown the first steps of building. > > > > > > > > > > > > *From:* dilly dobbs > > *Sent:* Saturday, September 11, 2010 11:22 AM > > *To:* Tateru Nino > > *Cc:* opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com > > *Subject:* Re: [opensource-dev] The Plan for Snowglobe > > > > Ok if its not the interface that is the issue, then i have an other idea > also, after speaking to a lot of mmo players they are lost when it comes to > second life. Why not have some &qu
Re: [opensource-dev] Retaining Newbies (Was: The Plan for Snowglobe)
So, should there be a group formed that could address the concerns that we all seem to have on how to improve the n00b experience in SL? We could have meetings and come up with a general direction to take development. And or make proposals to take to LL even if it was in a forum like the dev mailing list. Out of all of the ideas that i have head i have yet to hear one that is not valid and that would require consideration. We all seem like intelligent adults that could come to an agreement on how to add priority to the issues that we would like to see addressed. And yes i work in an Agile dev software shop so im sorry about the lingo. Opinions, and ideas on this ? I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by Douglas Adams On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 12:43 PM, Robert Martin wrote: > The things that i see as problems > > 1 folks seem to more or less "sleepwalk" through the newbie portal so > that we folks in Help areas (i stalk NCI Kuula myself) get asked > questions that are answered in the newbie portal. > > 2 folks seem to tp into the area and have no clue where they have > arrived at (folks wanting sex drugs and Roc^HGuns in the NCI area) > > 3 non english folks that seem to be using telegraph keys to log in > that also are completely clueless > > 4 folks (like Bloodlines) that seem to not understand that a given > area may actually have and enforce rules above what the TOS states > > now of course the UI confusing folks and getting in the way of > operating the program DOES NOT HELP > > 1 this may not be solveable but a general increase in server/sim > stability and performance will help > > 2 a One time popup in case of a newbie portal tp in the form of "You > have just teleported to %area_name% @ %simpleSLurl% please note the > following [short list of flags] This is a %rating_area% for more > details see attached notecard" > > 3 it would help if we could read the language in use by the viewer and > if the resident could be informed as to what languages are available > in that area (or maybe stick a translator thing in the default newbie > pack??) > > 4 this may require having a Land Group (above X regions held) to be > assigned a Linden (or have access to a pool of Lindens) so that a > person grazing the TOS could have a Linden Issued Abuse Report "on the > spot" (this would fast track any process since a Linden could > "certify" the AR right then and there) > > > in short if "we" take care of the problem of "chewtoys" then newbies > may stick around more > > > > -- > Robert L Martin > ___ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Retaining Newbies (Was: The Plan for Snowglobe)
On 9/11/2010 1:05 PM, Robert Martin wrote: > On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 1:52 PM, dilly dobbs wrote: >> We all seem like intelligent adults that could come to an agreement on how >> to add priority to the issues that we would like to see addressed. And yes >> i work in an Agile dev software shop so im sorry about the lingo. >> Opinions, and ideas on this ? > I would like to put my paws into this kind of thing could we get an > indoor type inworld location for this?? > I think that i would be able to provide us with a meeting place on the grid. My wife i am sure would be willing to give us a meeting place on the grid. And i would be willing to foot the group costs as long as they don't get out of control. dilly -- I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by Douglas Adams ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Retaining Newbies (Was: The Plan for Snowglobe)
On 9/11/2010 1:11 PM, Tateru Nino wrote: >Well, as far as this mailing list goes, it should largely be kept to > viewer features/changes/improvements. Anything that happens beyond the > viewer is kind of out-of-scope. > > On 12/09/2010 4:05 AM, Robert Martin wrote: >> On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 1:52 PM, dilly dobbs wrote: >>> We all seem like intelligent adults that could come to an agreement on how >>> to add priority to the issues that we would like to see addressed. And yes >>> i work in an Agile dev software shop so im sorry about the lingo. >>> Opinions, and ideas on this ? >> I would like to put my paws into this kind of thing could we get an >> indoor type inworld location for this?? >> I would think that we will be coming up with viewer changes and feature requests and or stories to contribute to the list. dilly -- I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by Douglas Adams ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Retaining Newbies (Was: The Plan for Snowglobe)
On 9/11/2010 1:11 PM, Tateru Nino wrote: >Well, as far as this mailing list goes, it should largely be kept to > viewer features/changes/improvements. Anything that happens beyond the > viewer is kind of out-of-scope. > > On 12/09/2010 4:05 AM, Robert Martin wrote: >> On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 1:52 PM, dilly dobbs wrote: >>> We all seem like intelligent adults that could come to an agreement on how >>> to add priority to the issues that we would like to see addressed. And yes >>> i work in an Agile dev software shop so im sorry about the lingo. >>> Opinions, and ideas on this ? >> I would like to put my paws into this kind of thing could we get an >> indoor type inworld location for this?? >> Any one that would like to participate in something like this please feel free to send me an IM in world and we can get the ball rolling. Dilly Dawes in world Thanks Dilly -- I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by Douglas Adams ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Retaining Newbies (Was: The Plan for Snowglobe)
Thanks OZ Now we need to get others to come and chat about it and see if we can come up with a plan. I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by Douglas Adams On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 9:17 AM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) < o...@lindenlab.com> wrote: > On 2010-09-11 14:11, Dilly Dobbs wrote: > > On 9/11/2010 1:05 PM, Robert Martin wrote: > > On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 1:52 PM, dilly dobbs > wrote: > > We all seem like intelligent adults that could come to an agreement on how > to add priority to the issues that we would like to see addressed. And yes > i work in an Agile dev software shop so im sorry about the lingo. > Opinions, and ideas on this ? > > I would like to put my paws into this kind of thing could we get an > indoor type inworld location for this?? > > > I think that i would be able to provide us with a meeting place on the > grid. My wife i am sure would be willing to give us a meeting place on > the grid. And i would be willing to foot the group costs as long as > they don't get out of control. > > > > Feel free to use the Hippotropolis Theater > > http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Hippotropolis/241/29/23 > > or there are some nice meeting spaces both indoor and outdoor in the nearby > Open Source Park > > http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Hippotropolis/37/233/22 > > if there are other in-world resources that would be helpful, contact me. > > > > ___ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] off the wall idea of the day
now we are talking cool, i can make ya some tracks for the music if ya like lol.. I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by Douglas Adams On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 9:46 PM, Rob Nelson wrote: > You could always have a cheesy minigame where you play a breakout clone to > get your avatar past a firewall to get to one of the servers. > > Which then explodes. > > > On 9/23/2010 6:41 PM, Ponzu wrote: > > Remember when at the keynote Philip said that Second Life should be "fun" > like the iPhone is fun? I had an idea tonight that is more along those > lines then the usual suggestions for the Viewer. if there is some sort of > Linden Art Department, maybe they can do something with this idea. > > "Logging in" is so *boring*. You log in to the mainframe, or your prison > cell. When a user connects to Second Life, we need a better metaphor and a > more "fun" experience. > > I am thinking of something like ENTER THE METAVERSE or UPLOAD YOURSELF > NOW. Then, instead of the boring progress bar, how about swirling lights or > a visual whirl pool or something, like a music visualization plug in from > iTunes. Of course, it would have to be cool, and not cheesy, and that might > be hard. It might need cool sound effects to go with it. It might need an > entire control panel so that each user can customize to what he or she (or > any of those other possibilities) prefers. maybe audio to go with the > video... Maybe each region in Second Life would have its own custom ENTRY > video and audio. Fairy dust and tinkly celeste for one place, Dark > Explosions and subsonic booms for another. > > or, just hire me to consult for the user experience group. I've got more > ideas, and I am hirable and cheap. 8-) > > Ponzu > > > ___ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available > here:http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > > > > ___ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
