Re: [opensource-dev] Test plans / Acceptance Criteria for Snowstorm sprint 3

[Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)]

  On 2010-09-10 20:01, Philippe (Merov) Bossut wrote:
>
> One question: how do we close (Accept) fixes? Clearly, that shouldn't 
> be the dev doing this (not me then on those) but how to make sure it 
> gets on the radar of someone?

I suggest that the process be that we get some other team member to do 
the review and execute the Accept.

The Snowstorm Jira dashboard will display any issues waiting for review.

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Re: [opensource-dev] Building viewer-development

[Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)]

 On 2010-09-10 22:53, Sheet Spotter wrote:


I would like to build the viewer-development source code under 
Windoze. I was familiar with the Snowglobe process. Now I need to 
understand any changes to the build process for Project Snowstorm.


The wiki instructions for the retrieving the source code and building 
the viewer seem out of date.


http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Get_source_and_compile

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Microsoft_Windows_Builds

Should these pages be marked out of date and include links to the 
newer Project Snowstorm pages?




Yes... I've added them to my list of pages to update.


Only the version control repository page was marked as out of date.

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Version_control_repository

The Project Snowstorm page links to a page that includes a discussion 
about retrieving the source code from the repository:


http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Develop_Viewer_Code

I encountered two problems on the "Develop Viewer Code" page.

Firstly, it took a wee while to find a client application that could 
retrieve the source code from the repository. Would adding links to 
client applications be helpful? I assume the following application is 
reliable:


http://tortoisehg.bitbucket.org/



It's widely used :-)   I've added a pointer to the Mercurial wiki, where 
many tools are listed.


Secondly, there was a link to a "build" page that was expected to hold 
the build instructions.


http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/How_To_Build_The_Viewer

The above page was empty.

Does the viewer-development build follow the same process outlined in 
the original "Microsoft Windows Builds" page?


Are all of the third-party applications (CMake, Cygwin, Python, etc) 
still required?


Are Artwork and Libraries bundles from the following page still required?

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Source_downloads

Thank you in advance for help in getting a viewer-development build 
happening under Windoze.




And thank you for the careful description of your problems.

There are some new tools coming in the next couple of weeks that will 
significantly simplify building, and especially getting the various 
dependencies.   We'll update the wiki with all of that very soon, and 
probably hold at least one in-world tutorial session about them.


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Re: [opensource-dev] The Plan for Snowglobe

[Tateru Nino]

On 11/09/2010 10:25 AM, dilly dobbs wrote:
> Fair enough, but the simple fact is that the interface needs to be 
> changed so that they can reclaim more of the sign ups to the grid. The 
> last numbers i have read on the learning curve is something like 70% 
> of the users that sign up leave because they have troubles with the 
> interface.  And we must also consider that this is a business and LL 
> needs to make good to keep the grid alive.
I'm afraid that figure is no better than flipping a coin. The fact is 
none of us has any  trustworthy figures on why most of the 9000-13000 
new signups each day don't log in the first time, or don't stay.

The fact is that when a new user decides - for whatever reason - that SL 
is not for them, they log out, and none of us are likely to ever find 
out why.

The UI could be responsible for 99% of those, or 1% of those, and we 
don't have any information to indicate how much of a showstopper it is.

When you read various responses to "Hey, have any of you tried this 
Second Life thing?" there's usually quite a number of responses from 
people who did and gave up. Hardly any of them mention the UI as the 
problem that they had with it.

Linden Lab has done studies and focus groups, apparently, so *they* 
might have better data than we do, but saying that the interface needs 
to be changed isn't necessarily any more accurate than suggesting that 
SL needs openid. Might be true. Might not be true. On what data do we 
base it, and if the UI *does* need to be changed, what changes will make 
things better and which ones will make things worse?

The simple fact is that we don't know. If Linden Lab has better data 
that they're willing to share, of course, that would be *awesome*.

-- 
Tateru Nino
http://dwellonit.taterunino.net/

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Re: [opensource-dev] The Plan for Snowglobe

[Mike Dickson]

  On 09/11/2010 08:03 AM, Tateru Nino wrote:
>
> On 11/09/2010 10:25 AM, dilly dobbs wrote:
>> Fair enough, but the simple fact is that the interface needs to be
>> changed so that they can reclaim more of the sign ups to the grid. The
>> last numbers i have read on the learning curve is something like 70%
>> of the users that sign up leave because they have troubles with the
>> interface.  And we must also consider that this is a business and LL
>> needs to make good to keep the grid alive.
[snip]
> When you read various responses to "Hey, have any of you tried this
> Second Life thing?" there's usually quite a number of responses from
> people who did and gave up. Hardly any of them mention the UI as the
> problem that they had with it.
I strongly disagree with you there. True its not scientific but I know 
of more than a few people personally who couldn't navigate with the old 
UI and gave up. They recently tried again with viewer 2 and are 
functional and happy.

Viewer 2 isn't perfect.  There's lots of room for refinement and this 
community has a lot of good ideas about what needs to be done.  But the 
whole Viewer 2 "the sky is falling" rhetoric from some is really counter 
productive.

Mike

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Re: [opensource-dev] Building viewer-development

[Ponzu]

I know it seems somewhat risky, but it is a WIKI.  If you see ways to
fix it, or even just mark that it iseems out of date, that is an
improvement.  Lots of small improvements will make a big difference.
(/me promises to put editing where mouth is.)

Another thing is that usually people who work on one page or another
*watch* it.  So, if you or I make some change, they will check to see
what it is, and then they will fix anything bad we do (because we are
ignorant losers).  This is a good way to prompt the people who really
*do* know to make some changes that they have been putting off.

Lastly, if they complain, we can moan about *true open source*...

lee

On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 10:53 PM, Sheet Spotter  wrote:
> I would like to build the viewer-development source code under Windoze. I
> was familiar with the Snowglobe process. Now I need to understand any
> changes to the build process for Project Snowstorm.
>
>
>
> The wiki instructions for the retrieving the source code and building the
> viewer seem out of date.
>
>     http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Get_source_and_compile
>
>     http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Microsoft_Windows_Builds
>
> Should these pages be marked out of date and include links to the newer
> Project Snowstorm pages?
>
>
>
> Only the version control repository page was marked as out of date.
>
>     http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Version_control_repository
>
>
>
> The Project Snowstorm page links to a page that includes a discussion about
> retrieving the source code from the repository:
>
>     http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Develop_Viewer_Code
>
>
>
> I encountered two problems on the “Develop Viewer Code” page.
>
>
>
> Firstly, it took a wee while to find a client application that could
> retrieve the source code from the repository. Would adding links to client
> applications be helpful? I assume the following application is reliable:
>
> http://tortoisehg.bitbucket.org/
>
>
>
> Secondly, there was a link to a “build” page that was expected to hold the
> build instructions.
>
>     http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/How_To_Build_The_Viewer
>
> The above page was empty.
>
>
>
> Does the viewer-development build follow the same process outlined in the
> original “Microsoft Windows Builds” page?
>
> Are all of the third-party applications (CMake, Cygwin, Python, etc) still
> required?
>
> Are Artwork and Libraries bundles from the following page still required?
>
>     http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Source_downloads
>
>
>
> Thank you in advance for help in getting a viewer-development build
> happening under Windoze.
>
>
>
>
>
> Sheet Spotter
>
>
>
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Re: [opensource-dev] The Plan for Snowglobe

[WolfPup Lowenhar]

I TOTALLY agree. Instead of complaining why don't they help to improve the
viewers functionality!

-Original Message-
From: opensource-dev-boun...@lists.secondlife.com
[mailto:opensource-dev-boun...@lists.secondlife.com] On Behalf Of Mike
Dickson
Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2010 9:33 AM
To: opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com
Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] The Plan for Snowglobe

  On 09/11/2010 08:03 AM, Tateru Nino wrote:
>
> On 11/09/2010 10:25 AM, dilly dobbs wrote:
>> Fair enough, but the simple fact is that the interface needs to be
>> changed so that they can reclaim more of the sign ups to the grid. The
>> last numbers i have read on the learning curve is something like 70%
>> of the users that sign up leave because they have troubles with the
>> interface.  And we must also consider that this is a business and LL
>> needs to make good to keep the grid alive.
[snip]
> When you read various responses to "Hey, have any of you tried this
> Second Life thing?" there's usually quite a number of responses from
> people who did and gave up. Hardly any of them mention the UI as the
> problem that they had with it.
I strongly disagree with you there. True its not scientific but I know 
of more than a few people personally who couldn't navigate with the old 
UI and gave up. They recently tried again with viewer 2 and are 
functional and happy.

Viewer 2 isn't perfect.  There's lots of room for refinement and this 
community has a lot of good ideas about what needs to be done.  But the 
whole Viewer 2 "the sky is falling" rhetoric from some is really counter 
productive.

Mike

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Re: [opensource-dev] Building viewer-development

[Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)]

  On 2010-09-11 9:48, Ponzu wrote:
> I know it seems somewhat risky, but it is a WIKI.  If you see ways to
> fix it, or even just mark that it iseems out of date, that is an
> improvement.  Lots of small improvements will make a big difference.
> (/me promises to put editing where mouth is.)
>
> Another thing is that usually people who work on one page or another
> *watch* it.  So, if you or I make some change, they will check to see
> what it is, and then they will fix anything bad we do (because we are
> ignorant losers).  This is a good way to prompt the people who really
> *do* know to make some changes that they have been putting off.
>
> Lastly, if they complain, we can moan about *true open source*...
>

Well said.

If you're not confident enough to actually make a change, you can also 
put whatever suggestion you have in the 'discussion' tab for that page - 
watchers will also be notified of those, I believe, and can pick it up 
and use it.

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Re: [opensource-dev] The Plan for Snowglobe

[Lance Corrimal]

 Am 11.09.2010 14:03, schrieb Tateru Nino:
> I'm afraid that figure is no better than flipping a coin. The fact is 
> none of us has any  trustworthy figures on why most of the 9000-13000 
> new signups each day don't log in the first time, or don't stay.

How many of those are scripted bots, or just "one bowl of rice per day"
goons somewhere in asia, the kind that signs up on forums to post
advertizing to make a living?

Guess how many of those spammy commenters I get on a few wordpress blogs
that I run, even though the signup and the anon commenting is behind
captchas...

I don't think that any "new user" should actually be counted as a new
user unless the new user actually connects to the grid at least once.

I actually think that that number means "9000 - 13000 have signed up,
irregardless of how many actually even just click the activation link".

bye,
LC


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Re: [opensource-dev] The Plan for Snowglobe

[Tateru Nino]

  On 11/09/2010 11:33 PM, Mike Dickson wrote:
>On 09/11/2010 08:03 AM, Tateru Nino wrote:
>> On 11/09/2010 10:25 AM, dilly dobbs wrote:
>>> Fair enough, but the simple fact is that the interface needs to be
>>> changed so that they can reclaim more of the sign ups to the grid. The
>>> last numbers i have read on the learning curve is something like 70%
>>> of the users that sign up leave because they have troubles with the
>>> interface.  And we must also consider that this is a business and LL
>>> needs to make good to keep the grid alive.
> [snip]
>> When you read various responses to "Hey, have any of you tried this
>> Second Life thing?" there's usually quite a number of responses from
>> people who did and gave up. Hardly any of them mention the UI as the
>> problem that they had with it.
> I strongly disagree with you there. True its not scientific but I know
> of more than a few people personally who couldn't navigate with the old
> UI and gave up. They recently tried again with viewer 2 and are
> functional and happy.
>
Which is fine, because I also didn't say that the UI *wasn't* a problem. What 
I'm saying is that we don't have any trustworthy data about what the problems 
are, how prevalent they are, or how the situation can be improved.

-- 
Tateru Nino
http://dwellonit.taterunino.net/

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Re: [opensource-dev] The Plan for Snowglobe

[dilly dobbs]

Ok if its not the interface that is the issue, then i have an other idea
also, after speaking to a lot of mmo players they are lost when it comes to
second life.  Why not have some "quests" to start the game for them.  For
instance learn to tp to this location to get clothes and put them on.  Make
it more like a game with a limited number of opening/learning the interface
'quests' so to speak.  There has to be some way to keep all of the sign
ups.

I my self have tried to bring a lot of other mmo players into the grid and
there biggest humps is learning the interface and then finding something to
do.

We have a very valuable mind trust in this group, we should be able to come
up with something to hook them so to speak.

This would make it better for us all.

Just my opinion.

I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by

Douglas Adams


On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 9:05 AM, Tateru Nino  wrote:

>  On 11/09/2010 11:33 PM, Mike Dickson wrote:
> >On 09/11/2010 08:03 AM, Tateru Nino wrote:
> >> On 11/09/2010 10:25 AM, dilly dobbs wrote:
> >>> Fair enough, but the simple fact is that the interface needs to be
> >>> changed so that they can reclaim more of the sign ups to the grid. The
> >>> last numbers i have read on the learning curve is something like 70%
> >>> of the users that sign up leave because they have troubles with the
> >>> interface.  And we must also consider that this is a business and LL
> >>> needs to make good to keep the grid alive.
> > [snip]
> >> When you read various responses to "Hey, have any of you tried this
> >> Second Life thing?" there's usually quite a number of responses from
> >> people who did and gave up. Hardly any of them mention the UI as the
> >> problem that they had with it.
> > I strongly disagree with you there. True its not scientific but I know
> > of more than a few people personally who couldn't navigate with the old
> > UI and gave up. They recently tried again with viewer 2 and are
> > functional and happy.
> >
> Which is fine, because I also didn't say that the UI *wasn't* a problem.
> What I'm saying is that we don't have any trustworthy data about what the
> problems are, how prevalent they are, or how the situation can be improved.
>
> --
> Tateru Nino
> http://dwellonit.taterunino.net/
>
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Re: [opensource-dev] The Plan for Snowglobe

[Zi Ree]

Am Samstag 11 September 2010 17:22:33 schrieb dilly dobbs:

> it more like a game with a limited number of opening/learning the interface
> 'quests' so to speak.  There has to be some way to keep all of the sign
> ups.

The old orientation islands had all this. It never really worked out.

Zi
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Re: [opensource-dev] The Plan for Snowglobe

[dilly dobbs]

Agreed but it was never built into the viewer and we kept them on the noob
island and well as we all know it was just a bunch of BS truly. and was
really no help at all.  There has to be some way to accomplish this in
a intelligent manner that makes it more like an MMo intro.


I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by

Douglas Adams


On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 10:31 AM, Zi Ree  wrote:

> Am Samstag 11 September 2010 17:22:33 schrieb dilly dobbs:
>
> > it more like a game with a limited number of opening/learning the
> interface
> > 'quests' so to speak.  There has to be some way to keep all of the sign
> > ups.
>
> The old orientation islands had all this. It never really worked out.
>
> Zi
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Re: [opensource-dev] The Plan for Snowglobe

[Michael Schlenker]

Am 11.09.2010 um 17:31 schrieb Zi Ree:

> Am Samstag 11 September 2010 17:22:33 schrieb dilly dobbs:
> 
>> it more like a game with a limited number of opening/learning the interface
>> 'quests' so to speak.  There has to be some way to keep all of the sign
>> ups.
> 
> The old orientation islands had all this. It never really worked out.
> 
And they failed miserably. I was stuck on one of those for a few hours till i 
found out how to TP away
from orientation island. And it took the help of Torleys Videos to find out how 
to open
the freebie boxes.

In fact, the orientation island nearly succeeded in keeping me from ever 
logging in again. 
I was just determined enough to get past it.

Michael
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Re: [opensource-dev] The Plan for Snowglobe

[Glen Canaday]

On Sat, 2010-09-11 at 17:39 +0200, Michael Schlenker wrote:
> Am 11.09.2010 um 17:31 schrieb Zi Ree:
> 
> > Am Samstag 11 September 2010 17:22:33 schrieb dilly dobbs:
> > 
> >> it more like a game with a limited number of opening/learning the interface
> >> 'quests' so to speak.  There has to be some way to keep all of the sign
> >> ups.
> > 
> > The old orientation islands had all this. It never really worked out.

I'll bite, lol.

How about - bringing a REWARD to the end of the quest! Say, L$10 bonus?
If an account is not logged into more than once in the first 30 days,
delete it and reclaim any of the awarded bonus cash?

> > 
> And they failed miserably. I was stuck on one of those for a few hours till i 
> found out how to TP away
> from orientation island. And it took the help of Torleys Videos to find out 
> how to open
> the freebie boxes.
> 
> In fact, the orientation island nearly succeeded in keeping me from ever 
> logging in again. 
> I was just determined enough to get past it.
> 
> Michael

I'd heard "you can make real money doing this." It was stories of Anshe
Chung in the press and SL coverage on slashdot that got me to try it out
in the first place. I'd wanted to make something like SL years ago when
I was still in school (early 90's) but didn't have the power or the
knowledge to go after it.

What KEPT me in it was the ability to create and to script. I wonder
what the percentage of REAL n00bs trying this out is now? And for that
matter, does the far higher quality of inworld merchandise and builds
compared to 4 years ago have anything to do with the discouragement?
Back then, EVERYTHING kind of sucked, even the things that were cool,
compared to how they are now. We might have too many professionals and
the bar may be set far higher than it used to be.

We'll never get the "gamers." SL's UI and rendering engine aren't
specific enough to any given look and feel so it can never match the
inworld content, and other than its superficial resemblance, it's just
not a game. There used to be a very high geek and DIY quotient in the
resident pool. I get the feeling there just aren't that many left.

--GC


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Re: [opensource-dev] The Plan for Snowglobe

[Patnad Babii]

I agree with you Dilly, what i’ve found over time, is that alot of people just 
prefer to skip reading, they like things visually and orally. 

I’ve found a tutorial by googling quickly 
http://www.mmocrunch.com/2010/07/16/microvolts-releases-tutorial-video/, of 
what i think would work best for SL’s first exprience. Something built in the 
viewer with animations and voice (or not) . 

I know they changed orientation island recently (in the last year) i think it 
is a good step forward, but apparently it needs more. 

Its true that the MMO based tutorial seem to be the appropriate approach for 
what SL is, the more guidance the better i would say and always allow people to 
skip part of it (if they are ready, let them just go). 

I see the tutorial as some kind of a checklist, where you have the different 
checkpoint, like Navigation, Inventory, Clothing, Purchasing and if they are 
willing enought they could even try the building tutorial were they are shown 
the first steps of building.





From: dilly dobbs 
Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2010 11:22 AM
To: Tateru Nino 
Cc: opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com 
Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] The Plan for Snowglobe

Ok if its not the interface that is the issue, then i have an other idea also, 
after speaking to a lot of mmo players they are lost when it comes to second 
life.  Why not have some "quests" to start the game for them.  For instance 
learn to tp to this location to get clothes and put them on.  Make it more like 
a game with a limited number of opening/learning the interface 'quests' so to 
speak.  There has to be some way to keep all of the sign ups. 

I my self have tried to bring a lot of other mmo players into the grid and 
there biggest humps is learning the interface and then finding something to do. 

We have a very valuable mind trust in this group, we should be able to come up 
with something to hook them so to speak. 

This would make it better for us all.

Just my opinion. 

I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by 

Douglas Adams 



On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 9:05 AM, Tateru Nino  wrote:

  On 11/09/2010 11:33 PM, Mike Dickson wrote:
  >On 09/11/2010 08:03 AM, Tateru Nino wrote:
  >> On 11/09/2010 10:25 AM, dilly dobbs wrote:
  >>> Fair enough, but the simple fact is that the interface needs to be
  >>> changed so that they can reclaim more of the sign ups to the grid. The
  >>> last numbers i have read on the learning curve is something like 70%
  >>> of the users that sign up leave because they have troubles with the
  >>> interface.  And we must also consider that this is a business and LL
  >>> needs to make good to keep the grid alive.
  > [snip]
  >> When you read various responses to "Hey, have any of you tried this
  >> Second Life thing?" there's usually quite a number of responses from
  >> people who did and gave up. Hardly any of them mention the UI as the
  >> problem that they had with it.
  > I strongly disagree with you there. True its not scientific but I know
  > of more than a few people personally who couldn't navigate with the old
  > UI and gave up. They recently tried again with viewer 2 and are
  > functional and happy.
  >

  Which is fine, because I also didn't say that the UI *wasn't* a problem. What 
I'm saying is that we don't have any trustworthy data about what the problems 
are, how prevalent they are, or how the situation can be improved.


  --
  Tateru Nino
  http://dwellonit.taterunino.net/

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Re: [opensource-dev] Retaining Newbies (Was: The Plan for Snowglobe)

[Bunny Halberd]

On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 7:03 AM, Tateru Nino  wrote:

> When you read various responses to "Hey, have any of you tried this
> Second Life thing?" there's usually quite a number of responses from
> people who did and gave up. Hardly any of them mention the UI as the
> problem that they had with it.

I've been in SL since late 2006. I have spent most of that time
helping to run a community that's extremely newbie friendly. (First as
a member, and eventually one of the lead admins.) We fall over
ourselves to help newbies feel welcome into Second Life... it's in our
blood. That's what we do.

I am fairly convinced that if a newbie can get past whatever the
Newbie Island thing of the month is, make it pass the first folks they
see (that are sometimes there to prey on newbies) and get to a
community like ours, the chance of them staying goes *WAY* up. I'm not
going to venture a guess, but it's WAY better than the general
population.


When I talk to newbies about Second Life, and I do this constantly, I
hear two general complaints:

1.) My computer can't handle it. (This is, by far, the #1 reason
people leave SL after trying it, I'm convinced. Maybe as high as 90%!)

2.) There's nothing to do / I can't find anything to do.

Our community helps with item #2. We give them something to do -
friendly folks to chat with, events to do, people that are friendly
(instead of hostile) to newbies, and the freedom to go explore and ask
all the questions they want.

Here's the weird thing - if you can meet criteria #2, they are MUCH
more likely to put up with #1. We have folks that will turn off
drawing avatars (thus turning SL into a glorified chat room with
shared music) when things get busy just so they can be there. (And
yes, we tell them how to do that if they need to.)

Once folks get familiar with SL and its ways, they start finding all
kinds of other things to do and eventually leave our community, but
I've yet to meet anyone that doesn't look back at us fondly. It makes
me smile when folks come back a year later with friends in tow and say
"this is where I grew up". :)


This group can help with item #1. I really think there needs to be a
HUGE effort to make the SL viewer "degrade gracefully." I, as a
community leader, have a computer I keep upgraded just so I can run SL
really well. I have to - it's part of my job. But your average newbie,
with a several year old machine, isn't going to have that.

Sure, they're not going to see the same thing *I* see, but at least
they'd be there... computers are upgradeable if the person really
wants to stay, and have things look better, but if it's not usable at
all on their machine, they aren't gonna be there in the first place.


I think a lot of headway could be made if the open source community
and LL worked together to do two things:

 - Give newbies a fighting chance with a viewer that degrades gracefully.
 - Provide an easy pathway for newbies to find groups like ours as
soon as they're first rezzed in. Give them something to do as soon as
they rezz in. Show them how wonderful the SL *PEOPLE* are, not some
cold, sterile orientation program.


- Bunny
___
Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges

Re: [opensource-dev] Retaining Newbies (Was: The Plan for Snowglobe)

[dilly dobbs]

See this is what i mean, these are all great ideas, and i think that most of
them can be put into practice, we just need to come to some kind of
agreement on a plan, and test this plan and make it flexible so it can be
changed easily to accommodate the needs that show them selves.  Why not try
to put a plan together and present them to LL. They want to retain users
more than we do. I would think this could take months to come up with a plan
but, once in place we could make a good dent in the loss of sign ups no
matter what the reason.

And i also think if we took our ideas to some of the major designers on the
grid they would be more than happy to help.


If i am off base please let me know but i think this conversation is moving
in a positive direction.

I would really like to thank you all for your valuable input.

We as users need to save and keep the grid that we all love moving and
expanding.


I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by

Douglas Adams


On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 11:26 AM, Bunny Halberd  wrote:

> On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 7:03 AM, Tateru Nino 
> wrote:
>
> > When you read various responses to "Hey, have any of you tried this
> > Second Life thing?" there's usually quite a number of responses from
> > people who did and gave up. Hardly any of them mention the UI as the
> > problem that they had with it.
>
> I've been in SL since late 2006. I have spent most of that time
> helping to run a community that's extremely newbie friendly. (First as
> a member, and eventually one of the lead admins.) We fall over
> ourselves to help newbies feel welcome into Second Life... it's in our
> blood. That's what we do.
>
> I am fairly convinced that if a newbie can get past whatever the
> Newbie Island thing of the month is, make it pass the first folks they
> see (that are sometimes there to prey on newbies) and get to a
> community like ours, the chance of them staying goes *WAY* up. I'm not
> going to venture a guess, but it's WAY better than the general
> population.
>
>
> When I talk to newbies about Second Life, and I do this constantly, I
> hear two general complaints:
>
> 1.) My computer can't handle it. (This is, by far, the #1 reason
> people leave SL after trying it, I'm convinced. Maybe as high as 90%!)
>
> 2.) There's nothing to do / I can't find anything to do.
>
> Our community helps with item #2. We give them something to do -
> friendly folks to chat with, events to do, people that are friendly
> (instead of hostile) to newbies, and the freedom to go explore and ask
> all the questions they want.
>
> Here's the weird thing - if you can meet criteria #2, they are MUCH
> more likely to put up with #1. We have folks that will turn off
> drawing avatars (thus turning SL into a glorified chat room with
> shared music) when things get busy just so they can be there. (And
> yes, we tell them how to do that if they need to.)
>
> Once folks get familiar with SL and its ways, they start finding all
> kinds of other things to do and eventually leave our community, but
> I've yet to meet anyone that doesn't look back at us fondly. It makes
> me smile when folks come back a year later with friends in tow and say
> "this is where I grew up". :)
>
>
> This group can help with item #1. I really think there needs to be a
> HUGE effort to make the SL viewer "degrade gracefully." I, as a
> community leader, have a computer I keep upgraded just so I can run SL
> really well. I have to - it's part of my job. But your average newbie,
> with a several year old machine, isn't going to have that.
>
> Sure, they're not going to see the same thing *I* see, but at least
> they'd be there... computers are upgradeable if the person really
> wants to stay, and have things look better, but if it's not usable at
> all on their machine, they aren't gonna be there in the first place.
>
>
> I think a lot of headway could be made if the open source community
> and LL worked together to do two things:
>
>  - Give newbies a fighting chance with a viewer that degrades gracefully.
>  - Provide an easy pathway for newbies to find groups like ours as
> soon as they're first rezzed in. Give them something to do as soon as
> they rezz in. Show them how wonderful the SL *PEOPLE* are, not some
> cold, sterile orientation program.
>
>
> - Bunny
> ___
> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting
> privileges
>
___
Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges

Re: [opensource-dev] Retaining Newbies (Was: The Plan for Snowglobe)

[dilly dobbs]

there are also some other concerns,  we have people on the grid like the
Vampires that pray on n00bs  (just an example) and drag them into things
that they never intended to be in.  Sl is about choices and freedom, i
personally see the grid as true freedom of expression. Be it adult or be it
RP.  These are all personal choices, but in order for for them to make these
choices we need to show them how to survive/use on the grid first.


I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by

Douglas Adams


On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 11:34 AM, dilly dobbs  wrote:

> See this is what i mean, these are all great ideas, and i think that most
> of them can be put into practice, we just need to come to some kind of
> agreement on a plan, and test this plan and make it flexible so it can be
> changed easily to accommodate the needs that show them selves.  Why not try
> to put a plan together and present them to LL. They want to retain users
> more than we do. I would think this could take months to come up with a plan
> but, once in place we could make a good dent in the loss of sign ups no
> matter what the reason.
>
> And i also think if we took our ideas to some of the major designers on the
> grid they would be more than happy to help.
>
>
> If i am off base please let me know but i think this conversation is moving
> in a positive direction.
>
> I would really like to thank you all for your valuable input.
>
> We as users need to save and keep the grid that we all love moving and
> expanding.
>
>
> I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by
>
> Douglas Adams
>
>
> On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 11:26 AM, Bunny Halberd wrote:
>
>> On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 7:03 AM, Tateru Nino 
>> wrote:
>>
>> > When you read various responses to "Hey, have any of you tried this
>> > Second Life thing?" there's usually quite a number of responses from
>> > people who did and gave up. Hardly any of them mention the UI as the
>> > problem that they had with it.
>>
>> I've been in SL since late 2006. I have spent most of that time
>> helping to run a community that's extremely newbie friendly. (First as
>> a member, and eventually one of the lead admins.) We fall over
>> ourselves to help newbies feel welcome into Second Life... it's in our
>> blood. That's what we do.
>>
>> I am fairly convinced that if a newbie can get past whatever the
>> Newbie Island thing of the month is, make it pass the first folks they
>> see (that are sometimes there to prey on newbies) and get to a
>> community like ours, the chance of them staying goes *WAY* up. I'm not
>> going to venture a guess, but it's WAY better than the general
>> population.
>>
>>
>> When I talk to newbies about Second Life, and I do this constantly, I
>> hear two general complaints:
>>
>> 1.) My computer can't handle it. (This is, by far, the #1 reason
>> people leave SL after trying it, I'm convinced. Maybe as high as 90%!)
>>
>> 2.) There's nothing to do / I can't find anything to do.
>>
>> Our community helps with item #2. We give them something to do -
>> friendly folks to chat with, events to do, people that are friendly
>> (instead of hostile) to newbies, and the freedom to go explore and ask
>> all the questions they want.
>>
>> Here's the weird thing - if you can meet criteria #2, they are MUCH
>> more likely to put up with #1. We have folks that will turn off
>> drawing avatars (thus turning SL into a glorified chat room with
>> shared music) when things get busy just so they can be there. (And
>> yes, we tell them how to do that if they need to.)
>>
>> Once folks get familiar with SL and its ways, they start finding all
>> kinds of other things to do and eventually leave our community, but
>> I've yet to meet anyone that doesn't look back at us fondly. It makes
>> me smile when folks come back a year later with friends in tow and say
>> "this is where I grew up". :)
>>
>>
>> This group can help with item #1. I really think there needs to be a
>> HUGE effort to make the SL viewer "degrade gracefully." I, as a
>> community leader, have a computer I keep upgraded just so I can run SL
>> really well. I have to - it's part of my job. But your average newbie,
>> with a several year old machine, isn't going to have that.
>>
>> Sure, they're not going to see the same thing *I* see, but at least
>> they'd be there... computers are upgradeable if the person really
>> wants to stay, and have things look better, but if it's not usable at
>> all on their machine, they aren't gonna be there in the first place.
>>
>>
>> I think a lot of headway could be made if the open source community
>> and LL worked together to do two things:
>>
>>  - Give newbies a fighting chance with a viewer that degrades gracefully.
>>  - Provide an easy pathway for newbies to find groups like ours as
>> soon as they're first rezzed in. Give them something to do as soon as
>> they rezz in. Show them how wonderful the SL *PEOPLE* are, not some
>> cold, sterile orientation prog

Re: [opensource-dev] The Plan for Snowglobe

[mysticaldemina]

I think it goes further than that.  The trick to making it simple is to make
it so intuitive that the user knows instinctively what to do.  This
basically means creating things that we are already familiar with.  It is
not intuitive to navigate, need a navigation HUD that is so obvious you know
what to do.  The use of inventory is not intuitive and you have to figure
out how to wear stuff, how to take stuff off.  What I am even wearing.  I
can't preview easy.  Just as an example should be a changing room or
something.  How do I know I can do animations, how do I see which ones do
what?  The user interface is using a 2D solution that hasn't evolved in 20
years.  Not intuitive to know where to go.  Maps, other things need to be
more familiar.  The grid map is so uninteresting and not intuitive.
Showcase and search are not clear.

 

This whole problem of new user experience is more than viewer 1, or viewer
2, it has to do with the whole concept of how users understand what they see
and relate that to what they know.  Nothing about this interface, except the
actual 3D space is familiar in anyway.  I think this is why I find the
viewer 2 UI so disappointing; it brought nothing new to the table on how to
do user-interfaces.

 

A few things that could help is making the user interface more active,
meaning objects that can do something show they can do something when the
mouse if over them.  A Tool tips area on the screen that gives you
information about the object your mouse is over some where on the screen.
Option for descriptive menus that explain option, or short menus.   Wizards
that tell you what step you are on.

 

People say it isn't a game, but many games have made significant progress in
user interface design, I don't see any of this being implemented.

 

All I have heard about viewer 2 UI is it solved some of the technical issues
to maintain the complexity of the UI.  I haven't really heard how it solves
the use cases of the user or content designer.  User wears clothes.  User
navigates.  User puts new object in world, User creates and object.  User
finds an object in their inventory.  User wants to find something to do.

 

Few other notes, is it is stressful to learn something new, need to reward
the user.  Give them something, make it fun.  Play videos that show them,
then they do it.  Don't know, but lots that can be done.

 

M.

 

 

  _  

From: opensource-dev-boun...@lists.secondlife.com
[mailto:opensource-dev-boun...@lists.secondlife.com] On Behalf Of Patnad
Babii
Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2010 12:18 PM
To: opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com
Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] The Plan for Snowglobe

 

I agree with you Dilly, what i've found over time, is that alot of people
just prefer to skip reading, they like things visually and orally. 

 

I've found a tutorial by googling quickly
http://www.mmocrunch.com/2010/07/16/microvolts-releases-tutorial-video/, of
what i think would work best for SL's first exprience. Something built in
the viewer with animations and voice (or not) . 

 

I know they changed orientation island recently (in the last year) i think
it is a good step forward, but apparently it needs more. 

 

Its true that the MMO based tutorial seem to be the appropriate approach for
what SL is, the more guidance the better i would say and always allow people
to skip part of it (if they are ready, let them just go). 

 

I see the tutorial as some kind of a checklist, where you have the different
checkpoint, like Navigation, Inventory, Clothing, Purchasing and if they are
willing enought they could even try the building tutorial were they are
shown the first steps of building.

 

 

 

 

 

From: dilly dobbs   

Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2010 11:22 AM

To: Tateru Nino   

Cc: opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com 

Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] The Plan for Snowglobe

 

Ok if its not the interface that is the issue, then i have an other idea
also, after speaking to a lot of mmo players they are lost when it comes to
second life.  Why not have some "quests" to start the game for them.  For
instance learn to tp to this location to get clothes and put them on.  Make
it more like a game with a limited number of opening/learning the interface
'quests' so to speak.  There has to be some way to keep all of the sign ups.


 

I my self have tried to bring a lot of other mmo players into the grid and
there biggest humps is learning the interface and then finding something to
do. 

 

We have a very valuable mind trust in this group, we should be able to come
up with something to hook them so to speak. 

 

This would make it better for us all.

 

Just my opinion. 


I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by 

Douglas Adams 



On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 9:05 AM, Tateru Nino  wrote:

On 11/09/2010 11:33 PM, Mike Dickson wrote:
>On 09/11/2010 08:03 AM, Tateru Nino wrote:
>> On 11/09/2010 10:2

Re: [opensource-dev] The Plan for Snowglobe

[dilly dobbs]

I have to say that i can not disagree with anything you said.  These are all
great ideas and we as the devs (well not me , i cant code my way out of a
paper bag) need to push things like this to keep the users that we so
value.


I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by

Douglas Adams


On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 11:49 AM,  wrote:

>  I think it goes further than that.  The trick to making it simple is to
> make it so intuitive that the user knows instinctively what to do.  This
> basically means creating things that we are already familiar with.  It is
> not intuitive to navigate, need a navigation HUD that is so obvious you know
> what to do.  The use of inventory is not intuitive and you have to figure
> out how to wear stuff, how to take stuff off.  What I am even wearing.  I
> can’t preview easy.  Just as an example should be a changing room or
> something.  How do I know I can do animations, how do I see which ones do
> what?  The user interface is using a 2D solution that hasn’t evolved in 20
> years.  Not intuitive to know where to go.  Maps, other things need to be
> more familiar.  The grid map is so uninteresting and not intuitive.
>  Showcase and search are not clear.
>
>
>
> This whole problem of new user experience is more than viewer 1, or viewer
> 2, it has to do with the whole concept of how users understand what they see
> and relate that to what they know.  Nothing about this interface, except the
> actual 3D space is familiar in anyway.  I think this is why I find the
> viewer 2 UI so disappointing; it brought nothing new to the table on how to
> do user-interfaces.
>
>
>
> A few things that could help is making the user interface more active,
> meaning objects that can do something show they can do something when the
> mouse if over them.  A Tool tips area on the screen that gives you
> information about the object your mouse is over some where on the screen.
>  Option for descriptive menus that explain option, or short menus.   Wizards
> that tell you what step you are on.
>
>
>
> People say it isn’t a game, but many games have made significant progress
> in user interface design, I don’t see any of this being implemented.
>
>
>
> All I have heard about viewer 2 UI is it solved some of the technical
> issues to maintain the complexity of the UI.  I haven’t really heard how it
> solves the use cases of the user or content designer.  User wears clothes.
> User navigates.  User puts new object in world, User creates and object.
>  User finds an object in their inventory.  User wants to find something to
> do.
>
>
>
> Few other notes, is it is stressful to learn something new, need to reward
> the user.  Give them something, make it fun.  Play videos that show them,
> then they do it.  Don’t know, but lots that can be done.
>
>
>
> M.
>
>
>
>
>  --
>
> *From:* opensource-dev-boun...@lists.secondlife.com [mailto:
> opensource-dev-boun...@lists.secondlife.com] *On Behalf Of *Patnad Babii
> *Sent:* Saturday, September 11, 2010 12:18 PM
> *To:* opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com
>
> *Subject:* Re: [opensource-dev] The Plan for Snowglobe
>
>
>
> I agree with you Dilly, what i’ve found over time, is that alot of people
> just prefer to skip reading, they like things visually and orally.
>
>
>
> I’ve found a tutorial by googling quickly
> http://www.mmocrunch.com/2010/07/16/microvolts-releases-tutorial-video/,
> of what i think would work best for SL’s first exprience. Something built in
> the viewer with animations and voice (or not) .
>
>
>
> I know they changed orientation island recently (in the last year) i think
> it is a good step forward, but apparently it needs more.
>
>
>
> Its true that the MMO based tutorial seem to be the appropriate approach
> for what SL is, the more guidance the better i would say and always allow
> people to skip part of it (if they are ready, let them just go).
>
>
>
> I see the tutorial as some kind of a checklist, where you have the
> different checkpoint, like Navigation, Inventory, Clothing, Purchasing and
> if they are willing enought they could even try the building tutorial were
> they are shown the first steps of building.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* dilly dobbs 
>
> *Sent:* Saturday, September 11, 2010 11:22 AM
>
> *To:* Tateru Nino 
>
> *Cc:* opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com
>
> *Subject:* Re: [opensource-dev] The Plan for Snowglobe
>
>
>
> Ok if its not the interface that is the issue, then i have an other idea
> also, after speaking to a lot of mmo players they are lost when it comes to
> second life.  Why not have some "quests" to start the game for them.  For
> instance learn to tp to this location to get clothes and put them on.  Make
> it more like a game with a limited number of opening/learning the interface
> 'quests' so to speak.  There has to be some way to keep all of the sign ups.
>
>
>
>
> I my self have tried to bring a lot of other mmo players into the grid and
> there bigge

Re: [opensource-dev] Retaining Newbies (Was: The Plan for Snowglobe)

[Robert Martin]

The things that i see as problems

1 folks seem to more or less "sleepwalk" through the newbie portal so
that we folks in Help areas (i stalk NCI Kuula myself) get asked
questions that are answered in the newbie portal.

2 folks seem to tp into the area and have no clue where they have
arrived at (folks wanting sex drugs and Roc^HGuns in the NCI area)

3 non english folks that seem to be using telegraph keys to log in
that also are completely clueless

4 folks (like Bloodlines) that seem to not understand that a given
area may actually have and enforce rules above what the TOS states

now of course the UI confusing folks and getting in the way of
operating the program DOES NOT HELP

1 this may not be solveable but a general increase in server/sim
stability and performance will help

2 a One time popup in case of a newbie portal tp in the form of "You
have just teleported to %area_name% @ %simpleSLurl% please note the
following [short list of flags] This is a %rating_area% for more
details see attached notecard"

3 it would help if we could read the language in use by the viewer and
if the resident could be informed as to what languages are available
in that area (or maybe stick a translator thing in the default newbie
pack??)

4 this may require having a Land Group (above X regions held) to be
assigned a Linden (or have access to a pool of Lindens) so that a
person grazing the TOS could have a Linden Issued Abuse Report "on the
spot" (this would fast track any process since a Linden could
"certify" the AR right then and there)


in short if "we" take care of the problem of "chewtoys" then newbies
may stick around more



-- 
Robert L Martin
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Re: [opensource-dev] Retaining Newbies (Was: The Plan for Snowglobe)

[dilly dobbs]

So,  should there be a group formed that could address the concerns that we
all seem to have on how to improve the n00b experience in SL?

We could have meetings and come up with a general direction to
take development. And or make proposals to take to LL even if it was in
a forum like the dev mailing list.

Out of all of the ideas that i have head i have yet to hear one that is not
valid and that would require consideration.

We all seem like intelligent adults that could come to an agreement on how
to add priority to the issues that we would like to see addressed.  And yes
i work in an Agile dev software shop so im sorry about the lingo.

Opinions, and ideas on this ?
I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by

Douglas Adams


On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 12:43 PM, Robert Martin wrote:

> The things that i see as problems
>
> 1 folks seem to more or less "sleepwalk" through the newbie portal so
> that we folks in Help areas (i stalk NCI Kuula myself) get asked
> questions that are answered in the newbie portal.
>
> 2 folks seem to tp into the area and have no clue where they have
> arrived at (folks wanting sex drugs and Roc^HGuns in the NCI area)
>
> 3 non english folks that seem to be using telegraph keys to log in
> that also are completely clueless
>
> 4 folks (like Bloodlines) that seem to not understand that a given
> area may actually have and enforce rules above what the TOS states
>
> now of course the UI confusing folks and getting in the way of
> operating the program DOES NOT HELP
>
> 1 this may not be solveable but a general increase in server/sim
> stability and performance will help
>
> 2 a One time popup in case of a newbie portal tp in the form of "You
> have just teleported to %area_name% @ %simpleSLurl% please note the
> following [short list of flags] This is a %rating_area% for more
> details see attached notecard"
>
> 3 it would help if we could read the language in use by the viewer and
> if the resident could be informed as to what languages are available
> in that area (or maybe stick a translator thing in the default newbie
> pack??)
>
> 4 this may require having a Land Group (above X regions held) to be
> assigned a Linden (or have access to a pool of Lindens) so that a
> person grazing the TOS could have a Linden Issued Abuse Report "on the
> spot" (this would fast track any process since a Linden could
> "certify" the AR right then and there)
>
>
> in short if "we" take care of the problem of "chewtoys" then newbies
> may stick around more
>
>
>
> --
> Robert L Martin
> ___
> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting
> privileges
>
___
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Re: [opensource-dev] Retaining Newbies (Was: The Plan for Snowglobe)

[Robert Martin]

On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 1:52 PM, dilly dobbs  wrote:
> We all seem like intelligent adults that could come to an agreement on how
> to add priority to the issues that we would like to see addressed.  And yes
> i work in an Agile dev software shop so im sorry about the lingo.
> Opinions, and ideas on this ?

I would like to put my paws into this kind of thing could we get an
indoor type inworld location for this??

-- 
Robert L Martin
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Re: [opensource-dev] Retaining Newbies (Was: The Plan for Snowglobe)

[Tateru Nino]

  Well, as far as this mailing list goes, it should largely be kept to 
viewer features/changes/improvements. Anything that happens beyond the 
viewer is kind of out-of-scope.

On 12/09/2010 4:05 AM, Robert Martin wrote:
> On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 1:52 PM, dilly dobbs  wrote:
>> We all seem like intelligent adults that could come to an agreement on how
>> to add priority to the issues that we would like to see addressed.  And yes
>> i work in an Agile dev software shop so im sorry about the lingo.
>> Opinions, and ideas on this ?
> I would like to put my paws into this kind of thing could we get an
> indoor type inworld location for this??
>

-- 
Tateru Nino
http://dwellonit.taterunino.net/

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Re: [opensource-dev] Retaining Newbies (Was: The Plan for Snowglobe)

[Dilly Dobbs]

  On 9/11/2010 1:05 PM, Robert Martin wrote:
> On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 1:52 PM, dilly dobbs  wrote:
>> We all seem like intelligent adults that could come to an agreement on how
>> to add priority to the issues that we would like to see addressed.  And yes
>> i work in an Agile dev software shop so im sorry about the lingo.
>> Opinions, and ideas on this ?
> I would like to put my paws into this kind of thing could we get an
> indoor type inworld location for this??
>
I think that i would be able to provide us with a meeting place on the 
grid.  My wife i am sure would be willing to give us a meeting place on 
the grid.  And i would be willing to foot the group costs as long as 
they don't get out of control.


dilly

-- 
I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by

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Re: [opensource-dev] Retaining Newbies (Was: The Plan for Snowglobe)

[Dilly Dobbs]

  On 9/11/2010 1:11 PM, Tateru Nino wrote:
>Well, as far as this mailing list goes, it should largely be kept to
> viewer features/changes/improvements. Anything that happens beyond the
> viewer is kind of out-of-scope.
>
> On 12/09/2010 4:05 AM, Robert Martin wrote:
>> On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 1:52 PM, dilly dobbs   wrote:
>>> We all seem like intelligent adults that could come to an agreement on how
>>> to add priority to the issues that we would like to see addressed.  And yes
>>> i work in an Agile dev software shop so im sorry about the lingo.
>>> Opinions, and ideas on this ?
>> I would like to put my paws into this kind of thing could we get an
>> indoor type inworld location for this??
>>

I would think that we will be coming up with viewer changes and feature 
requests and or stories to contribute to the list.

dilly

-- 
I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by

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Re: [opensource-dev] Retaining Newbies (Was: The Plan for Snowglobe)

[Dilly Dobbs]

  On 9/11/2010 1:11 PM, Tateru Nino wrote:
>Well, as far as this mailing list goes, it should largely be kept to
> viewer features/changes/improvements. Anything that happens beyond the
> viewer is kind of out-of-scope.
>
> On 12/09/2010 4:05 AM, Robert Martin wrote:
>> On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 1:52 PM, dilly dobbs   wrote:
>>> We all seem like intelligent adults that could come to an agreement on how
>>> to add priority to the issues that we would like to see addressed.  And yes
>>> i work in an Agile dev software shop so im sorry about the lingo.
>>> Opinions, and ideas on this ?
>> I would like to put my paws into this kind of thing could we get an
>> indoor type inworld location for this??
>>
Any one that would like to participate in something like this please 
feel free to send me an IM in world and we can get the ball rolling.

Dilly Dawes  in world


Thanks
Dilly

-- 
I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by

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Re: [opensource-dev] Retaining Newbies (Was: The Plan for Snowglobe)

[Lance Corrimal]

Am Samstag 11 September 2010 schrieb Robert Martin:

> 3 it would help if we could read the language in use by the viewer
> and if the resident could be informed as to what languages are
> available in that area (or maybe stick a translator thing in the
> default newbie pack??)

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LlGetAgentLanguage

there.

Ferd's google translator uses that to autodetect languages.


bye,
LC
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Re: [opensource-dev] Retaining Newbies (Was: The Plan for Snowglobe)

[Qie Niangao]

> 3 it would help if we could read the language in use by the viewer and
> if the resident could be informed as to what languages are available
> in that area (or maybe stick a translator thing in the default newbie
> pack??) [...]
> --
> Robert L Martin
In case it helps, a script can almost always learn the viewer language
with llGetAgentLanguage().  I had a multilingual info station for
adult verification that did that, and used agent-specific parcel media
to show excerpts of wiki pages in the viewer's choice of language.  I
learned that almost nobody hides their viewer language.  But a few
folks took umbrage, insisting that they only set their viewer language
to Outer Slobovian because they liked the way it punctuated numbers,
or some damned thing, and I shouldn't assume that they wanted content
to match the language of their viewer.  Were I to do it over again, I
might simply have national flags for them to select, and keep track of
who clicked which flag.
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Re: [opensource-dev] Retaining Newbies (Was: The Plan for Snowglobe)

[Ann Otoole]

Sitearm Madonna just hosted a discussion on this topic today. Perhaps you 
should 
contact Sitearm for a transcript.





From: Dilly Dobbs 
To: Tateru Nino 
Cc: opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com
Sent: Sat, September 11, 2010 2:39:10 PM
Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Retaining Newbies (Was: The Plan for Snowglobe)

  On 9/11/2010 1:11 PM, Tateru Nino wrote:
>Well, as far as this mailing list goes, it should largely be kept to
> viewer features/changes/improvements. Anything that happens beyond the
> viewer is kind of out-of-scope.
>
> On 12/09/2010 4:05 AM, Robert Martin wrote:
>> On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 1:52 PM, dilly dobbs   wrote:
>>> We all seem like intelligent adults that could come to an agreement on how
>>> to add priority to the issues that we would like to see addressed.  And yes
>>> i work in an Agile dev software shop so im sorry about the lingo.
>>> Opinions, and ideas on this ?
>> I would like to put my paws into this kind of thing could we get an
>> indoor type inworld location for this??
>>
Any one that would like to participate in something like this please 
feel free to send me an IM in world and we can get the ball rolling.

Dilly Dawes  in world


Thanks
Dilly

-- 
I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by

Douglas Adams

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[opensource-dev] 1-bit alpha textures

[Stickman]

I seem to recall something about 1-bit alpha textures (the same that
the Linden trees use) being usable in viewer 2. I was looking for it
the other day and couldn't find it, and a Leben Schnabel just asked me
about it. Apparently it's in another of the beta clients, but isn't in
the main viewer 2.

Did this get lost somewhere? Is it done? Is it hidden? I'm rather
uninformed at the moment, so I apologize if this is obvious.

Thanks,

Stickman Ingmann
Seawolf
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[opensource-dev] where is the source

[malachi]

Where can I download the latest snowstorm source code? the wiki is a bit  
confusing.


-- 
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
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Re: [opensource-dev] Retaining Signups

[Daniel]

  I wrote most of a User's Manual on the wiki for v1.23:

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User%27s_Manual

Perhaps if they had gotten something like that in the registration email 
- either a document, or links to tutorials and manuals, it would help 
them figure out how to use the software? Viewer 2.0 does have built in 
help (which after 6 years the 1.x series never did), so that's a big 
step forward, but my thought is hit them with the information even 
before they log in the first time.  If they choose not to use it, well, 
not much you can do about that.
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Re: [opensource-dev] 1-bit alpha textures

[Frans]

I assume you are talking about Avatar Alpha Masks. It's in the viewer 2+,
and 1.23 has backwards compatibility. It is for avatars, so you can make
(parts of) the avatar invisible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8UDHD2S_-I

-- 
Jeroen Frans
Virtual World Technology Specialist @ http://VesuviusGroup.com
Second Life: Frans Charming
blog about SL @ http://secondslog.blogspot.com

On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 1:20 AM, Stickman  wrote:

> I seem to recall something about 1-bit alpha textures (the same that
> the Linden trees use) being usable in viewer 2. I was looking for it
> the other day and couldn't find it, and a Leben Schnabel just asked me
> about it. Apparently it's in another of the beta clients, but isn't in
> the main viewer 2.
>
> Did this get lost somewhere? Is it done? Is it hidden? I'm rather
> uninformed at the moment, so I apologize if this is obvious.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Stickman Ingmann
> Seawolf
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Re: [opensource-dev] where is the source

[Ardy Lay]

  On 9/11/2010 9:55 PM, malachi wrote:
> Where can I download the latest snowstorm source code? the wiki is a bit
> confusing.
>
>
Source is live and right here: 
https://bitbucket.org/lindenlab/viewer-development

Read a little for some background and pointers.  Link to source is in 
the wiki, which is being reorganized a lot to reflect the new 
processes.  http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Project_Snowstorm



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