Re: [opensource-dev] Request for review/testing Socks 5 support for viewer-development (VWR-20801)

[Tofu Linden]

Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote:
>   On 2010-09-06 8:01, Tofu Linden wrote:
>> Hi Robin,
>> Is there a clear blocker for this?  My loose grasp of the situation
>> is that it's waiting for some Socks users to verify that this
>> works for them out in the wild.  Is this correct?
> It also needs an upgrade of the curl library.
> 
> I've built the one that has a fix, but not tested it in a viewer build - 
> perhaps you can help with that part, Tofu.  The repo that builds the new 
> curl is at http://hg.lindenlab.com/oz/curl-autobuild

Investigating.
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Re: [opensource-dev] Request for review/testing Socks 5 support for viewer-development (VWR-20801)

[Robin Cornelius]

On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 12:00 PM, Tofu Linden  wrote:
> Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote:
>>   On 2010-09-06 8:01, Tofu Linden wrote:
>>> Hi Robin,
>>> Is there a clear blocker for this?  My loose grasp of the situation
>>> is that it's waiting for some Socks users to verify that this
>>> works for them out in the wild.  Is this correct?
>> It also needs an upgrade of the curl library.
>>
>> I've built the one that has a fix, but not tested it in a viewer build -
>> perhaps you can help with that part, Tofu.  The repo that builds the new
>> curl is at http://hg.lindenlab.com/oz/curl-autobuild
>
> Investigating.
> ___

I can't access that build of curl but woul dbe happy to test it if i could

Robin
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Re: [opensource-dev] Request for review/testing Socks 5 support for viewer-development (VWR-20801)

[Tofu Linden]

Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote:
>   On 2010-09-06 8:01, Tofu Linden wrote:
>> Hi Robin,
>> Is there a clear blocker for this?  My loose grasp of the situation
>> is that it's waiting for some Socks users to verify that this
>> works for them out in the wild.  Is this correct?
> It also needs an upgrade of the curl library.
> 
> I've built the one that has a fix, but not tested it in a viewer build - 
> perhaps you can help with that part, Tofu.  The repo that builds the new 
> curl is at http://hg.lindenlab.com/oz/curl-autobuild

Not a great success, sadly.
On the official build machine (build-linux) the autobuild aborts with a
python(?) error pretty quickly.
On my local machine everything builds great, and basically runs, but
the resulting libcurl doesn't have HTTPS support (it didn't find
openssl, I guess) which we need.

I'm not really familiar with autobuild - perhaps Brad has some input?
Should I be running this on a specific host that isn't build-linux?

I could pretty easily hand-roll a build to unblock VWR-20801, but
autobuild is infinitely more desirable.

Cheers.


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Re: [opensource-dev] Request for review/testing Socks 5 support for viewer-development (VWR-20801)

[Robin Cornelius]

On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 1:01 PM, Tofu Linden  wrote:

> Not a great success, sadly.
> On the official build machine (build-linux) the autobuild aborts with a
> python(?) error pretty quickly.
> On my local machine everything builds great, and basically runs, but
> the resulting libcurl doesn't have HTTPS support (it didn't find
> openssl, I guess) which we need.
>
> I'm not really familiar with autobuild - perhaps Brad has some input?
> Should I be running this on a specific host that isn't build-linux?
>
> I could pretty easily hand-roll a build to unblock VWR-20801, but
> autobuild is infinitely more desirable.

Yea handrolling is easy but clearly not where you want to be, Iv'e
certainly done it for windows for testing the socks code and also
build it for linux myself in the past no problems.

One thing to note I'm not sure of the status of cares WRT non blocking
curl dns lookups. Looking at the curl source it uses Windows threads
for DNS lookups on win32, but it always was a requirment to use c-ares
with --non-blocking on linux to prevent libresolv from stalling the
viewer, it may have moved all DNS lookups to threads as the internal
curl state machine does feature wait DNS states. Nothing should have
changed here from the last curl package you releases though so once
you have beaten the autobuild server to find openSSL it should just do
what ever it did before and work fine.

Robin
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Re: [opensource-dev] The Plan for Snowglobe

[Ponzu]

Will there be a "snowstorm" viewer?

>From an end-user standpoint, it might be helpful if there are simply
named viewers to decide between.

V2
V2 beta
V1.23
Snowsglobe (as long as 1.23 is supported)
Snowstorm (or is that the same as V2 Beta?)
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Re: [opensource-dev] The Plan for Snowglobe

[Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)]

  On 2010-09-08 9:43, Ponzu wrote:
> Will there be a "snowstorm" viewer?

Not by that name - there is a 'Development' viewer (available both from 
the wiki and the secondlife.com download page) that is the current 
viewer-development build.

See https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Viewer_Types


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Re: [opensource-dev] The Plan for Snowglobe

[Mike Dickson]

  On 09/08/2010 10:04 AM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote:
>On 2010-09-08 9:43, Ponzu wrote:
>> Will there be a "snowstorm" viewer?
> Not by that name - there is a 'Development' viewer (available both from
> the wiki and the secondlife.com download page) that is the current
> viewer-development build.
>
> See https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Viewer_Types
>
So there's no plans for a "stabilized" Snowstorm?  It will always be a 
dev build?  How quickly would one expect code from a dev viewer to move 
to a beta and then released one?

Mike
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Re: [opensource-dev] The Plan for Snowglobe

[Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)]

  On 2010-09-08 10:35, Mike Dickson wrote:
>On 09/08/2010 10:04 AM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote:
>> On 2010-09-08 9:43, Ponzu wrote:
>>> Will there be a "snowstorm" viewer?
>> Not by that name - there is a 'Development' viewer (available both from
>> the wiki and the secondlife.com download page) that is the current
>> viewer-development build.
>>
>> See https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Viewer_Types
>>
> So there's no plans for a "stabilized" Snowstorm?  It will always be a
> dev build?  How quickly would one expect code from a dev viewer to move
> to a beta and then released one?

The expectation is that the Development builds will be pretty stable.

When "enough" stuff has been integrated, it will be pulled to a Beta 
repository and the usual release process will ensue from there.  See 
https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Viewer_Integration_and_Release_Processes

What constitutes "enough" is something that's probably going to be kind 
of dynamic...

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Re: [opensource-dev] The Plan for Snowglobe

[Tillie Ariantho]

On 08.09.2010 16:50, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote:

> The expectation is that the Development builds will be pretty stable.

Needs some polishment before that. The DEV builds crash every now and then, 
with not much in the log and a created dump file of 0 bytes.

If you have an idea how I can get more infos out of a crash, give me some 
hints. I'm installing about every second dev build and using it.

:-)

Tillie
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[opensource-dev] Chat issues

[Talia Tokugawa]

Hey, is this just me?
In Snowstorm every so often in chat the last character on a line of text is
replaced by a space.
Specific example here..

What I see is
[12:06]  Nerd: got my vot

everyone else sees
[12:06]  Nerd: got my vote

I can also copy the line of text and paste it and it will be "vote" not
"vot". It's literally just what I see that's wrong.
Tal
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[opensource-dev] Creation menu story.

[Erin Mallory]

Overall User story:
User story brief: As a user/content creator, I need more accessible and easier 
to find controls. 
User
 story expanded: As a user/content creator, It is hard to find the 
controls and features I need, and it requires more clicks and more time 
to use them.  Furthermore, with the newest changes to 2.1 I can no 
longer easily access the controls to make new clothes or skins.  Thus I would 
like to make it easier and faster to design clothing and skins in SL.

Subpart userstory 1) As a User/Creator I want a more intuitive, friendly, 
faster, way to make clothing and skins

Subpart userstory 2) As a User/Creator I want the ability to take off exactly 
what i don't want on

Both these two userstories could be resolved with a menu similar to the one 
very quickly sketched out for http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-22906

Please note it needs some polishing up but it was meant to give a general idea 
and to provide a starting point.  

Subpart userstory 3) As a User/Creator I want to undock the creation panels
(already being worked on elsewhere and by others)

Supart Userstory 4) As a User/Creator I want better, faster, and more intuitive 
editors for clothing, skin, tattoos, etc
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[opensource-dev] tpv list

[Sythos]

ehm is there a plan to list SnowStorm too? on list or Linden
Viewers paragraph (where SL2 and SnowGlobe already named)
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Re: [opensource-dev] tpv list

[Sarah (Esbee) Hutchinson]

Snowstorm isn't a Viewer, so there's no need to list it separately.
Snowstorm is just the name of the team working on the official Second Life
Viewer.

Cheers,
Esbee




On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 2:07 PM, Altair Sythos  wrote:

> ehm is there a plan to list SnowStorm too? on list or Linden
> Viewers paragraph (where SL2 and SnowGlobe already named)
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[opensource-dev] 209178 dev script edit window

[Ricky]

Anybody else notice that the line numbers in the script editor are
white-on-white? If you set focus somewhere else the script window
grays (expected) revealing the fact that the line number text is
white...

Ricky
Cron Stardust
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Re: [opensource-dev] tpv list

[Ricky]

It's the "Second Life development viewer" not the "Snowstorm viewer"
right?  Along with the "Second Life beta viewer" and the "Second Life
viewer" - this last being the  main "stable" edition.

Ricky
Cron Stardust

On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 2:17 PM, Sarah (Esbee) Hutchinson
 wrote:
> Snowstorm isn't a Viewer, so there's no need to list it separately.
> Snowstorm is just the name of the team working on the official Second Life
> Viewer.
> Cheers,
> Esbee
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 2:07 PM, Altair Sythos  wrote:
>>
>> ehm is there a plan to list SnowStorm too? on list or Linden
>> Viewers paragraph (where SL2 and SnowGlobe already named)
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[opensource-dev] Blocking viewers.

[Tom Grimshaw]

  Dear Linden Lab,

It's absolutely none of your business what software I choose to run on 
my PC.

Blocking emerald is a step of pure arrogance - and ignorance - on Linden 
Lab's behalf - it's not having an adverse effect on your servers, in 
fact THE ONLY WAY you can tell i'm runing Emerald is by the channel and 
version provided in login, and this has been proven by the number of 
clones that have popped up with their channel renamed (and the ID 
texture changed of course). You cannot censor Open Source software, and 
the fact that you're trying to makes you a despicable organisation.

Stop policing my computer. I will decide what viewer I use, thank you.

~T
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Re: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers.

[Aleric Inglewood]

I'm not happy to say it, but I can't help myself...

I told you so

When LL announced the TPV list, it was already clear to me
that they want to control what viewer can connect and that
this was the beginning of whitelist. Soon every viewer that
is not derived from their holy "2.0" will be blocked.

On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 11:39 PM, Tom Grimshaw  wrote:
>  Dear Linden Lab,
>
> It's absolutely none of your business what software I choose to run on
> my PC.
>
> Blocking emerald is a step of pure arrogance - and ignorance - on Linden
> Lab's behalf - it's not having an adverse effect on your servers, in
> fact THE ONLY WAY you can tell i'm runing Emerald is by the channel and
> version provided in login, and this has been proven by the number of
> clones that have popped up with their channel renamed (and the ID
> texture changed of course). You cannot censor Open Source software, and
> the fact that you're trying to makes you a despicable organisation.
>
> Stop policing my computer. I will decide what viewer I use, thank you.
>
> ~T
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Re: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers.

[dilly dobbs]

It is there grid that you are connecting too with the viewer of your choice,
so yea it is there business.  As much as we all want to think that sl is
open source, there is only parts of it that are.  Im sure no one is going to
stop you from using and open grid with emerald.

I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by

Douglas Adams


On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 4:42 PM, Aleric Inglewood  wrote:

> I'm not happy to say it, but I can't help myself...
>
> I told you so
>
> When LL announced the TPV list, it was already clear to me
> that they want to control what viewer can connect and that
> this was the beginning of whitelist. Soon every viewer that
> is not derived from their holy "2.0" will be blocked.
>
> On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 11:39 PM, Tom Grimshaw  wrote:
> >  Dear Linden Lab,
> >
> > It's absolutely none of your business what software I choose to run on
> > my PC.
> >
> > Blocking emerald is a step of pure arrogance - and ignorance - on Linden
> > Lab's behalf - it's not having an adverse effect on your servers, in
> > fact THE ONLY WAY you can tell i'm runing Emerald is by the channel and
> > version provided in login, and this has been proven by the number of
> > clones that have popped up with their channel renamed (and the ID
> > texture changed of course). You cannot censor Open Source software, and
> > the fact that you're trying to makes you a despicable organisation.
> >
> > Stop policing my computer. I will decide what viewer I use, thank you.
> >
> > ~T
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Re: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers.

[Marc Adored]

Just switch to Phoenix its the projects new structure and project name.

On another not they have every right to police who and what is
connecting to their service. They also have every right to ban you for
whatever reason they want without giving any reason at all. They are
not policing your computer you have the choice to use other grids with
your banned viewer they are not blocking you from using the
application all together just blocking you from connecting to their
service with it.

On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 5:42 PM, Aleric Inglewood
 wrote:
> I'm not happy to say it, but I can't help myself...
>
> I told you so
>
> When LL announced the TPV list, it was already clear to me
> that they want to control what viewer can connect and that
> this was the beginning of whitelist. Soon every viewer that
> is not derived from their holy "2.0" will be blocked.
>
> On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 11:39 PM, Tom Grimshaw  wrote:
>>  Dear Linden Lab,
>>
>> It's absolutely none of your business what software I choose to run on
>> my PC.
>>
>> Blocking emerald is a step of pure arrogance - and ignorance - on Linden
>> Lab's behalf - it's not having an adverse effect on your servers, in
>> fact THE ONLY WAY you can tell i'm runing Emerald is by the channel and
>> version provided in login, and this has been proven by the number of
>> clones that have popped up with their channel renamed (and the ID
>> texture changed of course). You cannot censor Open Source software, and
>> the fact that you're trying to makes you a despicable organisation.
>>
>> Stop policing my computer. I will decide what viewer I use, thank you.
>>
>> ~T
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Re: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers.

[Celierra Darling]

You can still use that software, but you'll just have to connect somewhere
else for service if you do so.  LL doesn't have to care only about direct
effects on their own servers, and LL has the right to no longer trust
viewers that identify themselves as "Emerald".

Sure, you can get around it if you really want, but keep in mind that
there's reasons why LL doesn't trust Emerald to connect to their servers.
 (Well, to be more precise, the original Emerald - there are Emerald forks
on the TPV directory, which aren't affected AFAIK.)

Celi


On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 5:39 PM, Tom Grimshaw  wrote:

>  Dear Linden Lab,
>
> It's absolutely none of your business what software I choose to run on
> my PC.
>
> Blocking emerald is a step of pure arrogance - and ignorance - on Linden
> Lab's behalf - it's not having an adverse effect on your servers, in
> fact THE ONLY WAY you can tell i'm runing Emerald is by the channel and
> version provided in login, and this has been proven by the number of
> clones that have popped up with their channel renamed (and the ID
> texture changed of course). You cannot censor Open Source software, and
> the fact that you're trying to makes you a despicable organisation.
>
> Stop policing my computer. I will decide what viewer I use, thank you.
>
> ~T
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Re: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers.

[Marc Adored]

Sorry but it is their service and they do have that right. They can
block you personally if they wanted to because they are providing you
with a service and they don't have to. Most people forget that. They
don't actually need any reason at all to stop providing you with
service. If they chose to block certain viewers because they want to
force people to use approved viewers then they have that right. I am
not talking about what they should do I am talking about what they
have the right to do. Honestly if they wanted to they could block any
non-official viewer and require everyone use their viewer. its just
like any service it is up to them on what they feel is beneficial to
the service. As i said previously they are not preventing you from
using that viewer they are just preventing you from using that viewer
on THEIR service is all. There are tons of more open grids you can
chose from to use your viewer if you chose too. I think most people
are spoiled by the fact that they have been given a choice by linden
labs. But thats how humanity works you give a little they want more
because they always devalue what they have.

Emerald is a perfect example of that. Everyone is upset and mad at
linden for banning Emerald but no body cared what the developers of
Emerald were doing before it effected them directly. I wont go into a
flame war over one of my favorite viewers but I just wanted to make
that point.

On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 5:49 PM, Tom Grimshaw  wrote:
>  On 08/09/2010 22:46, Marc Adored wrote:
>>
>> On another not they have every right to police who and what is
>> connecting to their service
>
> No, given that the data that the viewer is sending is identical, they have
> no right to do that whatsoever.  The software I choose to use on my PC is
> entirely my choice.
>
> I'll continue to use my own viewer that i've forked from Emerald a while
> back - this change doesn't affect me - but it does reflect extremely poorly
> on the lab and their ethics.
>
> ~T
>
>
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Re: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers.

[Sythos]

On Wed, 08 Sep 2010 22:39:00 +0100
Tom Grimshaw  wrote:

> It's absolutely none of your business what software I choose to run
> on my PC.
> Blocking emerald is a step of pure arrogance - and ignorance - on
> Linden Lab's behalf - it's not having an adverse effect on your
> servers, in fact THE ONLY WAY you can tell i'm runing Emerald is by
> the channel and version provided in login, and this has been proven
> by the number of clones that have popped up with their channel
> renamed (and the ID texture changed of course). You cannot censor
> Open Source software, and the fact that you're trying to makes you a
> despicable organisation.

it isn't a censorship, is a protection for residents
anyway there are a dozen of non-linden viewers

> Stop policing my computer. I will decide what viewer I use, thank you.

imho *ALL* non TPV listed viewers should be blacklisted
is safer, for both resident and developers
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Re: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers.

[Tom Grimshaw]

  On 08/09/2010 22:58, Celierra Darling wrote:
> there's reasons why LL doesn't trust Emerald to connect to their servers.

My issue is that none of these reasons involve the way the viewer 
interacts with the LL Servers in any way. They made the decision based 
on the conduct of a few idiots (and there are always idiots in open 
source projects) - and not because of any real issue with the viewer itself.

If the viewer was causing server issues or was enabling content theft, I 
would agree with this decision.

~T
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Re: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers.

[Sythos]

On Wed, 8 Sep 2010 17:59:41 -0400
Marc Adored  wrote:

> Emerald is a perfect example of that. Everyone is upset and mad at
> linden for banning Emerald but no body cared what the developers of
> Emerald were doing before it effected them directly. I wont go into a
> flame war over one of my favorite viewers but I just wanted to make
> that point.

Emerald have good reason to be blacklisted, there is the "next step"
called phoenix, cleaned by "bad code" and "bad elements", all other is
only a lil actors show...
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Re: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers.

[Fox]

Dear Tom Grimshaw,

You're right, LL has no business telling you what software you can install
and run on your own computer, they definitely shouldn't try to censor OSS,
and they would look pretty despicable if they were trying to do that.  Good
thing they aren't doing that at all here isn't it? What they can do, is tell
you what software they'll ALLOW to connect to THEIR service :)  You are
still perfectly free to choose what viewer to use and connect with Emerald
to any other grid that still allows it.
They aren't policing anything but their own service, which they are most
certianly within their rights to do.

You're welcome :)

~F
On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 5:39 PM, Tom Grimshaw  wrote:

>  Dear Linden Lab,
>
> It's absolutely none of your business what software I choose to run on
> my PC.
>
> Blocking emerald is a step of pure arrogance - and ignorance - on Linden
> Lab's behalf - it's not having an adverse effect on your servers, in
> fact THE ONLY WAY you can tell i'm runing Emerald is by the channel and
> version provided in login, and this has been proven by the number of
> clones that have popped up with their channel renamed (and the ID
> texture changed of course). You cannot censor Open Source software, and
> the fact that you're trying to makes you a despicable organisation.
>
> Stop policing my computer. I will decide what viewer I use, thank you.
>
> ~T
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Re: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers.

[Sythos]

On Wed, 08 Sep 2010 23:03:15 +0100
Tom Grimshaw  wrote:

> My issue is that none of these reasons involve the way the viewer 
> interacts with the LL Servers in any way. They made the decision
> based on the conduct of a few idiots (and there are always idiots in
> open source projects) - and not because of any real issue with the
> viewer itself.
> If the viewer was causing server issues or was enabling content
> theft, I would agree with this decision.

partially right... discovered the "no good" side a team can choose if
fix it or not, if somebody believe to be a god why him viewer is the
most used is HIM fault... not LL one

job of LL is provide a grid and hold businness safe, if works from
residents/creators can be stolen with few clicks is a viewer problem
and i PRETEND Linden do something to safe my businness... (and LL did
it)
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Re: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers.

[Mike Dickson]

  On 09/08/2010 05:42 PM, Aleric Inglewood wrote:
> I'm not happy to say it, but I can't help myself...
>
> I told you so
>
> When LL announced the TPV list, it was already clear to me
> that they want to control what viewer can connect and that
> this was the beginning of whitelist. Soon every viewer that
> is not derived from their holy "2.0" will be blocked.
>
> On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 11:39 PM, Tom Grimshaw  wrote:
>>   Dear Linden Lab,
>>
>> It's absolutely none of your business what software I choose to run on
>> my PC.
Oh geez. Do we really have to go through this again.  You can run 
whatever you like on your PC.  And Linden Lab has every right to 
determine what software they will allow to connect to their SERVICE.  
And there's no indication and never has been that LL will block anything 
that's not 2.0.  Their are some text only clients on the TPV that 
connect legitimately now.  The Emerald team brought this on themselves.  
This kind of stuff has no business on a development list. Please take it 
elsewhere.

Mike

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Re: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers.

[Marc Adored]

I agree and Phoenix seems to be coming only very well to and all the
negativity behind emerald seems to be gone in the atmosphere of
phoenix. I am pretty excited to see where it heads! Maybe this thread
can be saved and put back on topic :D

Tom I know your upset about them banning Emerald but it was in their
right to do so there is no arguing that. I suggest that if you like
emerald you should try phoenix it is the cleaned up spawn of emerald
and has all the non-controversial developers from emerald working on
it even LGG :D I am sure you will notices differences in the viewer
but it has all the same features plus some really neat new ones.

On-topic part is phoenix is shaping up to be a pretty decently
organized opensource viewer should we focus on that now? :D

On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 6:04 PM, Altair Sythos  wrote:
> On Wed, 8 Sep 2010 17:59:41 -0400
> Marc Adored  wrote:
>
>> Emerald is a perfect example of that. Everyone is upset and mad at
>> linden for banning Emerald but no body cared what the developers of
>> Emerald were doing before it effected them directly. I wont go into a
>> flame war over one of my favorite viewers but I just wanted to make
>> that point.
>
> Emerald have good reason to be blacklisted, there is the "next step"
> called phoenix, cleaned by "bad code" and "bad elements", all other is
> only a lil actors show...
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Re: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers.

[Tom Grimshaw]

  On 08/09/2010 23:09, Mike Dickson wrote:
> Oh geez. Do we really have to go through this again.  You can run
> whatever you like on your PC.  And Linden Lab has every right to
> determine what software they will allow to connect to their SERVICE.

Okay, let's just outline this properly.

The lab DO NOT have any right to determine what software they will allow 
to connect to their SERVICE.  The only thing they DO have a right to do 
is to determine which TCP connections they want to accept and which UDP 
packets they want to accept.  It's my right to use whichever software I 
want to generate those packets. As such, I accept that they have the 
legal right to block logins from clients containing "Emerald" in their 
version string - but not a moral right. And they certainly do not have a 
right to threaten people with account bans if they "bypass" the ban.

Linden Lab have blocked Emerald due to a POLITICAL DISAGREEMENT with 
their dev team.  They haven't blocked it because of any fault with the 
software itself,  they're not protecting anyone - they're taking 
pre-emptive action against a project because of some percieved danger 
that might evolve.

~T

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[opensource-dev] This is my goodbye

[Aleric Inglewood]

I've compared Linden Lab more often with an abusive husband.
You take the beating and then believe the stories and hope that
it all will become better. It's hard to leave such a husband usually,
because you invested in that life and one lose a lot when one
leaves.

Nevertheless, I have come to the conclusion that I've been a fool
in the past. I've been mad, over and over and over again. I've
told myself every time: this is unacceptable; but still I believed
things would change for the better and came back... not really
full force (in the end the number of patches that I actually
wrote are a fraction of what I'd have done when I hadn't been
beaten up on a regular basis).

Today, still with a black eye of my homestead being taken offline,
I have been kicked in the face by the hard cut off of snowglobe.
Yes, it was inevitable that in the end all viewers would be derived
from the official viewer (aka, 2.x), but NOT by force! It should have
been as a result of new features. Open source should be the
evolution of ideas (and code) and not being enforced and dictated.

Slowly I have began to realize that Linden Lab is a control freak.
They try to control EVERYTHING, from what you do in-world to the
what name your viewer can have, or what you run on your PC to
connect to their servers.

They have never listened to the users before making important
decisions (and seldom afterwards) and I have seen no recent change
in that. I do think that the snowstorm change was a good change, but
in the end it is just abuse of open source volunteers by giving them
the exact same treatment as paid Linden Lab employees: all
the hard work, *exactly* following the rules dictated by Linden
Lab but no room to do it your way. No voice in any decision
making, and certainly no room to experience, or freedom.

Open source, however, is about FREEDOM: The freedom to
CHANGE the code and to USE it as you see fit. The Best Ideas
then survive as a result of "evolution". Bad ideas aren't used,
popular ideas are copied by everyone. Linden Lab makes
this natural process impossible. The only thing that is left
is working for a company, without freedom, without a vote
and without being paid.

I'm sorry that this how they run their business. I'm a lot
more sorry that I saw too late that I really shouldn't volunteer
to work for them under those conditions.

THIIS NOT OPEN SOURCE

For now I have joined "imprudence" (http://imprudenceviewer.org/).
This is a true open source project. Surely Linden Lab can still
block it from their servers, and they WILL do so when they start
to disallow 1.23, but at least I won't be working anymore for them.
Patches contributed to Imprudence will be pure GPL and not fall
under the Contribution Agreement. Because this project is really,
purely GPL it will be possible to use OTHER GPL-ed code, from
other third party viewers for example, or anywhere else from
the net. THAT is what open source is about.

I'm pleased to have noticed that all the important open source
people that I have learned to appreciate and respect are
already there. If you are not, please join us! This doesn't have
to a goodbye: I hope to see you join us on the other side!

Thank you for your time,
Aleric Inglewood.

PS CC to imprudence mailinglist
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Re: [opensource-dev] Chat issues

[Glen Canaday]

Try editing a notecard and type past the edge. I've only seen it once
and im not in a position where I can report it atm, but it could be
related to what you're seeing.

In the notecard I get screwed up text.

--GC

On Wed, 2010-09-08 at 20:15 +0100, Talia Tokugawa wrote:
> Hey, is this just me?
> In Snowstorm every so often in chat the last character on a line of
> text is replaced by a space.
> Specific example here..
> 
> 
> What I see is
> [12:06]  Nerd: got my vot
> 
> 
> everyone else sees
> [12:06]  Nerd: got my vote
> 
> 
> I can also copy the line of text and paste it and it will be "vote"
> not "vot". It's literally just what I see that's wrong.
> Tal
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Re: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers.

[Harold Brown]

In regards to Phoenix vs Emerald.  The ONLY things Phoenix removed
from the client that made them TPV compliant was the EMKDU.dll file
(as well as removing the ability to use the LLKDU.dll)

The gist of this seeming to be that allowing a Third Party client the
ability to use LLKDU.dll means that client is no longer TPV compliant.

Interesting enough the only valid arguement for the removal is the
fact that KDU is a closed source binary and the client is GPL.  That
arguement is, of course, only valid for viewer code earlier than
Snowstorm as the code license was changed to LGPL.

Honestly with the impending removal of Snowglobe from the Linden Lab
version control repositories, this all reeks of ways to force people
to the new Viewer 2.x interface.  One which I personally can not use
for any extended lengths of time as it just doesn't flow naturally to
me as a User Interface.

On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 3:12 PM, Marc Adored  wrote:
> I agree and Phoenix seems to be coming only very well to and all the
> negativity behind emerald seems to be gone in the atmosphere of
> phoenix. I am pretty excited to see where it heads! Maybe this thread
> can be saved and put back on topic :D
>
> Tom I know your upset about them banning Emerald but it was in their
> right to do so there is no arguing that. I suggest that if you like
> emerald you should try phoenix it is the cleaned up spawn of emerald
> and has all the non-controversial developers from emerald working on
> it even LGG :D I am sure you will notices differences in the viewer
> but it has all the same features plus some really neat new ones.
>
> On-topic part is phoenix is shaping up to be a pretty decently
> organized opensource viewer should we focus on that now? :D
>
> On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 6:04 PM, Altair Sythos  wrote:
>> On Wed, 8 Sep 2010 17:59:41 -0400
>> Marc Adored  wrote:
>>
>>> Emerald is a perfect example of that. Everyone is upset and mad at
>>> linden for banning Emerald but no body cared what the developers of
>>> Emerald were doing before it effected them directly. I wont go into a
>>> flame war over one of my favorite viewers but I just wanted to make
>>> that point.
>>
>> Emerald have good reason to be blacklisted, there is the "next step"
>> called phoenix, cleaned by "bad code" and "bad elements", all other is
>> only a lil actors show...
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Re: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers.

[Marc Adored]

> Okay, let's just outline this properly.
>
> The lab DO NOT have any right to determine what software they will allow
> to connect to their SERVICE.  The only thing they DO have a right to do
> is to determine which TCP connections they want to accept and which UDP
> packets they want to accept.

And if they chose to determine what packets they wish to accept by the
viewer you are using it is there right. Just like that could by al
rights say only Windows users are allowed to use their service. It is
THEIR right to chose and YOUR privilage to use their service.

> It's my right to use whichever software I
> want to generate those packets. As such, I accept that they have the
> legal right to block logins from clients containing "Emerald" in their
> version string - but not a moral right. And they certainly do not have a
> right to threaten people with account bans if they "bypass" the ban.
>

They actually do have EVERY right to threaten people with account bans
if they do not follow the terms of service or try to bypass any
quality control measures they take.

> Linden Lab have blocked Emerald due to a POLITICAL DISAGREEMENT with
> their dev team.  They haven't blocked it because of any fault with the
> software itself,  they're not protecting anyone - they're taking
> pre-emptive action against a project because of some percieved danger
> that might evolve.

You may be right about its current state but a few times in the past
it it has proven to be unsafe for secondlifes user base to use it and
the dev team that was on it could not be trusted to not allow those
things to happen again. But this is going into the REASON why the
banned it which is irrelevant to the fact that they DID ban it. Like I
said regardless of the "morals" behind it they have every right to ban
whatever for whatever they want it is their service. Legally they have
obligations to their user base. Normally this wouldn't apply to third
party products but they did set a standard for third party products so
they have to uphold that standard or they me be legally obligated for
any damage a third party application they endorse may cause.
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Re: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers.

[malachi]

so the software "Emerald" has no flaws that effect second life in any way  
you say?



attempted DDoSing a website from the client
exposing user data to the world(then hiding it in encryption that is sent  
only to the creators)

those are goodies that everyone wants to be a part of i take it.
i mean thats what you are saying.

perhaps you need to go read the TOS mate. you know that thing that you  
clicked "I AGREE" to when you logged in.
LINDEN LAB reserves the right to revoke your access to the second life  
servers at anytime for any reason (or for no reason at all)
with or without notice.

no one cares one way or another which clients you install. just like no  
one cares what other stuff you have on your computer(except the emerald  
devs)

the only thing lindens care about is the fact that they asked the  
developers to remove the bull s#$T from the client that was in violation  
to their rules.
the devs "REFUSED" < do you even understand that word?
linden lab blocks the client that is in obvious violation of the TOS
and state that they will BAN/terminate your access to second life if you  
bypass that block on the software.

now lets have a peek at this

lets say you get hash banned from second life. and you change your ip and  
mac address. and log into sl
if they find out that it is you what happens?
THEY BAN YOU AGAIN.

are you saying they dont have the right to ban you? if so log out of sl  
and log into open sim.

now. that being said i think that if they are going to block emerald and  
obviously ban key creators from second life they NEED TO.(AND WOULD A  
LINDEN PLEASE READ THIS MESSAGE)
ban all accounts that those people have. instead of just allowing them to  
generate 1000 alts with the last name MODULARSYSTEMS(wait they already  
have) and logging in as much as they want.

now. im going back to my snowstorm. could we please move the topic to  
something that has relevance to what this group is called?

On Wed, 08 Sep 2010 18:21:26 -0400, Tom Grimshaw   
wrote:

>   On 08/09/2010 23:09, Mike Dickson wrote:
>> Oh geez. Do we really have to go through this again.  You can run
>> whatever you like on your PC.  And Linden Lab has every right to
>> determine what software they will allow to connect to their SERVICE.
>
> Okay, let's just outline this properly.
>
> The lab DO NOT have any right to determine what software they will allow
> to connect to their SERVICE.  The only thing they DO have a right to do
> is to determine which TCP connections they want to accept and which UDP
> packets they want to accept.  It's my right to use whichever software I
> want to generate those packets. As such, I accept that they have the
> legal right to block logins from clients containing "Emerald" in their
> version string - but not a moral right. And they certainly do not have a
> right to threaten people with account bans if they "bypass" the ban.
>
> Linden Lab have blocked Emerald due to a POLITICAL DISAGREEMENT with
> their dev team.  They haven't blocked it because of any fault with the
> software itself,  they're not protecting anyone - they're taking
> pre-emptive action against a project because of some percieved danger
> that might evolve.
>
> ~T
>
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Re: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers.

[Sythos]

On Wed, 08 Sep 2010 23:21:26 +0100
Tom Grimshaw  wrote:

> The lab DO NOT have any right to determine what software they will
> allow to connect to their SERVICE.  

are you joking? is THEIR service, on THEIR servers, done with THEIR
software.

> Linden Lab have blocked Emerald due to a POLITICAL DISAGREEMENT with 
> their dev team.  They haven't blocked it because of any fault with
> the software itself,  they're not protecting anyone - they're taking 
> pre-emptive action against a project because of some percieved danger 
> that might evolve.

not only with team, but with code of emerald viewer too, way to copybot
others creations, private data "statistically collected" and some
licenses violations...
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[opensource-dev] Blocking viewers.

[Erin Mallory]

From: angel_of_crim...@hotmail.com
To: t...@streamsense.net
Subject: RE: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers.
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 19:46:57 -0400








Actually, There WAS a danger.  Emerald devs were openly collecting personal 
information.  There were actively using the program to perform attacks on 
people.  That wasn't politics, or perception. that was fact.  If LL didn't act, 
they could be legally responsible.  As it is, Emerald became a criminal matter, 
and there is a very real possibility that legal charges will be filed on some 
of the devs. It would have been recklessly negligent if LL didn't block 
Emerald. They have the legal and moral right and responsibility to do so.  
There's LOTS of legal precedents that would make LL liable if they failed to 
act.  IMVU, AOL, Yahoo, for example all wound up restricting what can connect 
to their services for much the same reasons.
I'm sorry you're upset that they blocked emerald.  But the way you act takes 
any sympathy I might have had away.  And frankly, their arrogance, disregard 
for anyone but themselves, and lack of maturity was their undoing. If they 
lived in my county, they would already have been arrested by our cybercrimes 
unit.  I don't know if the ISP hosting the servers that were attacked will 
press the issue, but if they do, then there will be consequences for the 
Emerald team.  I personally, hope that ISP does. 
If you really liked Emerald's better features so much, Phoenix seems to have 
the devs from emerald that had the most integrity and allot of real talent. 
Though I cannot run it, many people can and it shows signs it will be better 
then Emerald was.
Please accept that Emerald is gone, and that the people responsible for 
Emeralds undoing were the Emerald's team themselves.

Erin

> Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 23:21:26 +0100
> From: t...@streamsense.net
> To: opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com
> Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers.
> 
>   On 08/09/2010 23:09, Mike Dickson wrote:
> > Oh geez. Do we really have to go through this again.  You can run
> > whatever you like on your PC.  And Linden Lab has every right to
> > determine what software they will allow to connect to their SERVICE.
> 
> Okay, let's just outline this properly.
> 
> The lab DO NOT have any right to determine what software they will allow 
> to connect to their SERVICE.  The only thing they DO have a right to do 
> is to determine which TCP connections they want to accept and which UDP 
> packets they want to accept.  It's my right to use whichever software I 
> want to generate those packets. As such, I accept that they have the 
> legal right to block logins from clients containing "Emerald" in their 
> version string - but not a moral right. And they certainly do not have a 
> right to threaten people with account bans if they "bypass" the ban.
> 
> Linden Lab have blocked Emerald due to a POLITICAL DISAGREEMENT with 
> their dev team.  They haven't blocked it because of any fault with the 
> software itself,  they're not protecting anyone - they're taking 
> pre-emptive action against a project because of some percieved danger 
> that might evolve.
> 
> ~T
> 
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Re: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers.

[Dave Booth]

  On 9/8/2010 16:39, Tom Grimshaw wrote:
>Dear Linden Lab,
>
> It's absolutely none of your business what software I choose to run on
> my PC.
>
> Blocking emerald is a step of pure arrogance - and ignorance - on Linden
> Lab's behalf - it's not having an adverse effect on your servers, in
> fact THE ONLY WAY you can tell i'm runing Emerald is by the channel and
> version provided in login, and this has been proven by the number of
> clones that have popped up with their channel renamed (and the ID
> texture changed of course). You cannot censor Open Source software, and
> the fact that you're trying to makes you a despicable organisation.
>
> Stop policing my computer. I will decide what viewer I use, thank you.
>
> ~T
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ye gods, enough with the drama. We expect it on forums and blogs but on 
THIS list??? just grow a pair. Bottom line, Emerald devs screwed up and 
violated TPV, they are gone and so is their malware-infected viewer. LL 
did exactly what any responsible org would do and nixed 'em. Done. Over. 
END.

Now either get over it and pick an alternative viewer or dont let the 
door hit your posterior on the way out, ok?
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Re: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers.

[Patnad Babii]

I am personnally VERY PROUD of what LL did with this issue, i would have 
expected a faster response but we can't blame them too much since it 
happened over a weekend.

What the folks at Emerald did was plain wrong, they have no rights to use 
your computer to run their attacks.

For all we know, they may have been doing that in the past at a smaller 
scale we'll never know.

I strongly believe that LL should even review some part of the code in the 
viewers they propose as 3rd party viewer and they should have a team 
dedicated to monitor all of them in case this ever happen again.

For my part, ill stay away from those viewer with the flavor of emerald, I 
cannot even trust the new people they got. There might be still people with 
bad intention behind it but that is my own opinion.

I even believe that the people who were behind those attacks should be 
procecuted as it is prescribed by the law in the United States. Peoples 
should be making a class action against Modular systems, all user of Emerald 
could join it since they all were victims and they were forced to 
participate in a collective attack against one or many websites / service on 
the internet.



-Message d'origine- 
From: AltairSythosMemo
Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 6:38 PM
To: opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com
Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers.

On Wed, 08 Sep 2010 23:21:26 +0100
Tom Grimshaw  wrote:

> The lab DO NOT have any right to determine what software they will
> allow to connect to their SERVICE.

are you joking? is THEIR service, on THEIR servers, done with THEIR
software.

> Linden Lab have blocked Emerald due to a POLITICAL DISAGREEMENT with
> their dev team.  They haven't blocked it because of any fault with
> the software itself,  they're not protecting anyone - they're taking
> pre-emptive action against a project because of some percieved danger
> that might evolve.

not only with team, but with code of emerald viewer too, way to copybot
others creations, private data "statistically collected" and some
licenses violations...
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Re: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers.

[Maya Remblai]

  Oh for crying out loud...Emerald DID cause a DDoS attack, which is a 
CRIME. It also collected information about users that it shouldn't have. 
Those are facts that LL is aware of. It's a dangerous piece of software 
and has no right to connect to the grid now. I used to use Emerald, and 
not many people advocated it more than me, but now I won't touch it 
because I know it's dangerous. LL did the right thing, and I'm impressed 
that they had the guts to do it at all. There was nothing personal or 
political about it. I do hope that LL will learn from the drama though, 
and get their act together with viewer work in general.

End of story. Go find another TPV and get on when your life. Most TPVs 
have the same feature set as Emerald now anyway, like temp uploads and 
useful radar.

Maya
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Re: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers.

[Harold Brown]

ANY Secondlife Viewer could be used for the exact same type of DDoS
attack.  Even more so the 2.0 viewers with Media on a Prim.

The DDoS was from a webpage with hidden images being called from
another site.  Not from the clients being used as a Bot network.  In
this case it just happened to be the Viewer login screen.


On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 6:09 PM, Maya Remblai
 wrote:
>  Oh for crying out loud...Emerald DID cause a DDoS attack, which is a
> CRIME. It also collected information about users that it shouldn't have.
> Those are facts that LL is aware of. It's a dangerous piece of software
> and has no right to connect to the grid now. I used to use Emerald, and
> not many people advocated it more than me, but now I won't touch it
> because I know it's dangerous. LL did the right thing, and I'm impressed
> that they had the guts to do it at all. There was nothing personal or
> political about it. I do hope that LL will learn from the drama though,
> and get their act together with viewer work in general.
>
> End of story. Go find another TPV and get on when your life. Most TPVs
> have the same feature set as Emerald now anyway, like temp uploads and
> useful radar.
>
> Maya
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[opensource-dev] Compiler optimizations on Viewer and LLKDU

[Sheet Spotter]

1. Are there any plans to enable higher levels of compiler optimizations for
the viewer?

 

For example, Streaming SIMD Extensions (SSE, SSE2, and SSE3) are not
enabled.  SSE was introduced in Pentium III processors in 1999. SSE was
first added to AMD processors in the Athlon XP and Duron, both in 2001. The
minimum requirements for the viewer are stated as: "800 MHz Pentium III or
Athlon, or better".

http://secondlife.com/support/system-requirements/

 

2. Also, would the LLKDU library benefit from higher levels of compiler
optimizations?

 

Anyone can compile the viewer with higher levels of optimization using the
publicly available source code. However, the source code for the LLKDU
library is not publicly available. Only LL could compile LLKDU with higher
levels of optimization.

 

3. Would LL consider providing a compiled version of the LLKDU library with
higher levels of optimization?

 

Taking advantage of higher levels of compiler optimization may improve the
experience for people running low to mid range equipment. My interest is in
improving the experience for residents using lower grade equipment, not in
eliminating those residents. I regularly run the viewer on an older model
Pentium 4.

 

 

Sheet Spotter

 

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[opensource-dev] Problem in Getting Library "libcurl-cares.so" to Compile SL Viewer

[Zhijie Shen]

Hi everyone,

When I use apt-get to acquire "libcurl4-cares-dev" on Ubuntu 10.04 LTS. I
meet a the dependency bug, which is reported as follows:
"
libcurl3-cares:
  Depends: libssl0.9.8 (>=0.9.8m-1) but 0.9.8k-7ubuntu8 is to be installed
"
Anybody has met the same problem? Any idea to solve the problem?

Regards,
Zhijie Shen


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[opensource-dev] Fwd: Problem in Getting Library "libcurl-cares.so" to Compile SL Viewer

[Zhijie Shen]

Now I've got around the problem but another comes as follows:
"
libcurl3-cares:
 Depends: libkrb53 (>=1.6.dfsg.2) but it is not installable
"
The dependency seems buggy since the libkrb5-3 is used instead of libkrb53
in ubuntu. The bug is also mentioned in
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/root-system/+bug/462059.
Is there any solution to deal with this?

Regards,
Zhijie Shen

-- Forwarded message --
From: Zhijie Shen 
Date: Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 11:16 AM
Subject: Problem in Getting Library "libcurl-cares.so" to Compile SL Viewer
To: opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com


Hi everyone,

When I use apt-get to acquire "libcurl4-cares-dev" on Ubuntu 10.04 LTS. I
meet a the dependency bug, which is reported as follows:
"
libcurl3-cares:
  Depends: libssl0.9.8 (>=0.9.8m-1) but 0.9.8k-7ubuntu8 is to be installed
"
Anybody has met the same problem? Any idea to solve the problem?

Regards,
Zhijie Shen
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Re: [opensource-dev] [POLICY] Banning TPV not on the TPV list

[Francesco Rabbi]

I understand, but read my example (and is ONLY an example, not related to Cool)

A developer fit hiddenly code malicious inside viewer, a resident will
be damaged by this code and toss him law guy to Linden why damage
happened on Linden grid, if Linden don't have data about Viewer
creator how can solve the problem? Pay using Linden funds?

-- 
Sent by iPhone

Il giorno 09/set/2010, alle ore 01:45, "Robert \"Exile In Paradise\"
Murphey"  ha scritto:

> Hello Altair!
> I wanted to respond to a comment you made on the opensource-dev list.
>
> You said "imho *ALL* non TPV listed viewers should be blacklisted"
>
> I would have to disagree, because the creator of Cool VL Viewer has
> good reasons not to be listed there, namely the Linden requirement
> for personal information can be viewed as a violation of French
> privacy laws which prevent collection and use of personal information
> in certain situations.
>
> Since I use Cool VL viewer, I would hate to see it banned because
> a French citizen expects LL to obey the law as much as LL expects
> citizens to.
>
> --
> Robert Murphey
> "Anyone attempting to generate random numbers by deterministic
> means is, of course, living in a state of sin." -- John Von Neumann
>
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