[opensource-dev] [META] Snowstorm Blog

[Boroondas Gupte]

 Just a heads-up that Project Snowstorm has a blog now:
http://blogs.secondlife.com/community/technology/snowstorm

If you have comments that aren't related to the posts there, please
remember that we also have a forum:
https://blogs.secondlife.com/community/forums/open-source

... and, of course, this and other mailing lists.

Cheers,
Boroondas
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Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture

[Talia Tokugawa]

Well this is taking things quite a bit further than I envisioned for this.
What Glen is suggesting here seems more like having stuff like java and
flash installed for a browser.
Where I was going with this was mainly just with the UI.

The UI system code be further cut into pieces which was where I was going
with this.
So take the LSL editor for example. I'd say that the vast majority of people
within Second Life don't ever code. So what is the point of having that in
the "basic" client? strip that out totally and then offer a plugin/extention
that would reintroduce an lsl editor to people if they so choose. You could
additionally have say the emerald lsl-editor as an additional plugin
featuring extra features (like the prebuilt extra scripts and cases).
There are so many things in the basic client that I really doubt people
actually bother to use. Windlight editors, (as I said before) a large amount
of the standard edit window, estate management tools, etc etc
This is just stripping out what we have in the current viewers. Really
getting back to basics as 2.0 "tried" to do. I think once we have a firm
foundation that is simple enough for a new user not to get scared then that
is what is going to keep user retention up. Once there is that with the
viewer and a plugin system that can cater to more experienced users the sky
really is the limit.
Plugin development is a much easier task for developers than viewer
development. Currently there is a small number of developers that work
towards new viewer. Either highly dedicated individuals (kirtsen) or groups
(emerald or imprudence). As Morgaine said viewers are "monolithic". Plugins
are so much less daunting for most developers to build.

Old style viewers had this all out in the open, which was great for power
users of Secondlife and probably the main reason behind emeralds prevalence
in the viewer market. Everything a long term user wanted was right there.
2.0 tried to keep this functionality but at the same time bury enough of the
more complicated stuff in menus so that new users were not scared, that
doesn't really solve either issue. New users as they dig further keep
finding new stuff and are probably left with a sense of "How much further do
I keep digging before I get this program?". Older users are left with the
annoyance of having to dig when they are used to everything being right
there. (I know I am)

So in this nice pluggable future, as a quick case study, lets take a look at
communications. Currently we have Local, IM and Group.

   - Emerald explored the possibility of using IRC too (personally I never
   used it). There is another plugin.
   - In the snowstorm backlog there is mention of a skype intergration
   (personally I switch to skype for long conversations as it's more reliable
   than vivox). Another plugin!
   - Moving on from there.. XMPP? (again I use gchat to talk with people
   people can't always get inworld and lets face it im>email is not exactly the
   best option).
   - How about some microblogging? twitter panel maybe?
   - And if we are really going the social route.. what about full open
   social intergration ala facebook apps? (Talia is currently dancing at so n'
   so location [slurl]... Talia is planning to goto X event [Link])

Very quickly you start getting some very nice integration with many other
services. So many plugins spring to mind when you start look at the SL
viewer as a modular system. You could have say for example "plugin bundles"
so say you could have a scripter bundle (lsl editor, script debuging tools
eg, avatar scripts from emerald, script times in estate tools etc etc).
Could have social networking bundles? say a twitter user bundle giving you a
twitter stream in your communications area, Twit this tools on events
windows, parcel details and personal profiles, maybe even snapshots to
twitpic? How about google junkies bundle.. xmpp gchat for you comms, lots of
nice "buzz this" (shudders) features dropped into the interface, "add to my
calendar" buttons for events, snapshot to picassa.

Long story short here. I don't believe it's possible to make a viewer that
covers all users. Every user has different use criteria Trying to fit every
peg into a round hole just ends up with broken pegs.

T

On 4 September 2010 03:54, Glen Canaday  wrote:

>
> >
> > this is why now all code is public and following few step you can
> > contribute all code you want... a optional switchable theme/UI/XUI can
> > be merged giving to all residents the freedom to choose the aspect on
> > monitor (viewer 1.x style too).
> >
> > Is hard take LL base code, patch it, merge a LL-next-version to fit
> > newfeatures and patch again everything, i think this way to work is
> > great why all can fit a features (a single click in setup panel
> > enable/disable it maybe...) without care to merge everytime a new
> > features will be implemented by LL
>
> Like I said... lots of ideas, but not enough geek nor enough singlehood
> to commit as 

Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture

[Brendan Wilson]

Not yet they have just started working on bring it to VS2008 and even doing
that is by a lot of effort from the OS community there even a jira on at
least bring it to VS2008(vc90)

 

From: opensource-dev-boun...@lists.secondlife.com
[mailto:opensource-dev-boun...@lists.secondlife.com] On Behalf Of Ann Otoole
Sent: Friday, September 03, 2010 10:11 AM
To: Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence); opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com
Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture

 

Has this project code been brought forward to Visual Studio 2010?

 

  _  

From: Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) 
To: opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com
Sent: Fri, September 3, 2010 9:32:54 AM
Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture

  On 2010-09-03 9:14, Lawson English wrote:
>On 9/2/10 8:13 AM, Talia Tokugawa wrote:
>> [...]
>> I know this has been suggested before as friends have suggested it.
>> Why not make the viewer more Modular? Introduce a plugin architecture.
>> Allow any user to "build" their own client that fits their needs and
>> requirements.
>>
> Its a HUGE undertaking to do that. LL wasn't willing to tackle the issue
> directly years ago and they probably don't have the resources to do it
> now. It would have to be a community-lead effort and I'm not sure that
> developers are willing to invest the time to refactor the viewer at that
> level unless LL will be willing to seriously consider using the
> resulting re-architectured viewer.

Try us...

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Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture

[Glen Canaday]

On Sat, 2010-09-04 at 13:28 +0100, Talia Tokugawa wrote:
> Well this is taking things quite a bit further than I envisioned for
> this. What Glen is suggesting here seems more like having stuff like
> java and flash installed for a browser.

Actually, nowhere near that! That's what people on the list seem to be
thinking of. What I've been thinking of for months is far more radical.
A browser can't change out its rendering engine or parser while still
connected to the website. This could and that's the idea.

What you're talking about seems much like how Maya was set up (at least
in 7.0 when I last saw it), or at least the concept. You switched entire
menu groups depending on the task (modeling, animating, etc.). You mean
switching UI styles according to skill level. Understandable... is one
of the things I was going for.

--GC


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Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture

[Talia Tokugawa]

Okay so this plugin talk has got me thinking.. I tend to think visually and
wasn't sure on if this mailing list dealt with images or not so I just
blogged the idea instead.
http://www.talia-tokugawa.co.uk/snowstorm-plugin-concepts-calendar/
 I
intend to write a series of ideas (thinking twitter plugin is next)

And yes Glen.. Something like Maya, maybe not changing the entire interface
dependant on what your working on, But the ability to bolt bits on so to
speak and for the parts to integrate with each other. I guess more like
plugins and scripts worked in Maya rather than the task dependant views.
As you say with the renderer. It might be cool to have the main window
display SL as we know it now but be able to get something like an advanced
minimap in 2d that you could plugin as a replacement for the default
graphics engine. Something to enable people with lesser machines to still be
able to interact with the work. As the text based viewer have shown in the
past it's perfectly feasible for people to interact with SL with minimal
graphical fluff.
Tal

On 4 September 2010 16:32, Glen Canaday  wrote:

> On Sat, 2010-09-04 at 13:28 +0100, Talia Tokugawa wrote:
> > Well this is taking things quite a bit further than I envisioned for
> > this. What Glen is suggesting here seems more like having stuff like
> > java and flash installed for a browser.
>
> Actually, nowhere near that! That's what people on the list seem to be
> thinking of. What I've been thinking of for months is far more radical.
> A browser can't change out its rendering engine or parser while still
> connected to the website. This could and that's the idea.
>
> What you're talking about seems much like how Maya was set up (at least
> in 7.0 when I last saw it), or at least the concept. You switched entire
> menu groups depending on the task (modeling, animating, etc.). You mean
> switching UI styles according to skill level. Understandable... is one
> of the things I was going for.
>
> --GC
>
>
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> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting
> privileges
>
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Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture

[Ann Otoole]

Why would anyone be burning time on VS2008 when VS2010 is the current 
environment?






From: Brendan Wilson 
To: OpenSource Mailing List 
Sent: Sat, September 4, 2010 9:00:33 AM
Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture

 
Not yet they have just started working on bring it to VS2008 and even doing 
that 
is by a lot of effort from the OS community there even a jira on at least bring 
it to VS2008(vc90)
 
From:opensource-dev-boun...@lists.secondlife.com 
[mailto:opensource-dev-boun...@lists.secondlife.com] On Behalf Of Ann Otoole
Sent: Friday, September 03, 2010 10:11 AM
To: Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence); opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com
Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture
 
Has this project code been brought forward to Visual Studio 2010?
 


 
From:Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) 
To: opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com
Sent: Fri, September 3, 2010 9:32:54 AM
Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture

  On 2010-09-03 9:14, Lawson English wrote:
>On 9/2/10 8:13 AM, Talia Tokugawa wrote:
>> [...]
>> I know this has been suggested before as friends have suggested it.
>> Why not make the viewer more Modular? Introduce a plugin architecture.
>> Allow any user to "build" their own client that fits their needs and
>> requirements.
>>
> Its a HUGE undertaking to do that. LL wasn't willing to tackle the issue
> directly years ago and they probably don't have the resources to do it
> now. It would have to be a community-lead effort and I'm not sure that
> developers are willing to invest the time to refactor the viewer at that
> level unless LL will be willing to seriously consider using the
> resulting re-architectured viewer.

Try us...

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Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture

[Nicky Perian]

Libraries, Libraries, Libraries and MS redistribution hell.




From: Ann Otoole 
To: Brendan Wilson ; OpenSource Mailing List 

Sent: Sat, September 4, 2010 12:10:12 PM
Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture


Why would anyone be burning time on VS2008 when VS2010 is the current 
environment?






From: Brendan Wilson 
To: OpenSource Mailing List 
Sent: Sat, September 4, 2010 9:00:33 AM
Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture

 
Not yet they have just started working on bring it to VS2008 and even doing 
that 
is by a lot of effort from the OS community there even a jira on at least bring 
it to VS2008(vc90)
 
From:opensource-dev-boun...@lists.secondlife.com 
[mailto:opensource-dev-boun...@lists.secondlife.com] On Behalf Of Ann Otoole
Sent: Friday, September 03, 2010 10:11 AM
To: Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence); opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com
Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture
 
Has this project code been brought forward to Visual Studio 2010?
 


 
From:Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) 
To: opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com
Sent: Fri, September 3, 2010 9:32:54 AM
Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture

  On 2010-09-03 9:14, Lawson English wrote:
>On 9/2/10 8:13 AM, Talia Tokugawa wrote:
>> [...]
>> I know this has been suggested before as friends have suggested it.
>> Why not make the viewer more Modular? Introduce a plugin architecture.
>> Allow any user to "build" their own client that fits their needs and
>> requirements.
>>
> Its a HUGE undertaking to do that. LL wasn't willing to tackle the issue
> directly years ago and they probably don't have the resources to do it
> now. It would have to be a community-lead effort and I'm not sure that
> developers are willing to invest the time to refactor the viewer at that
> level unless LL will be willing to seriously consider using the
> resulting re-architectured viewer.

Try us...

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No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture

[Glen Canaday]

On Sat, 2010-09-04 at 17:39 +0100, Talia Tokugawa wrote:
> Okay so this plugin talk has got me thinking.. I tend to think
> visually and wasn't sure on if this mailing list dealt with images or
> not so I just blogged the idea instead.
> http://www.talia-tokugawa.co.uk/snowstorm-plugin-concepts-calendar/
> I intend to write a series of ideas (thinking twitter plugin is next)
> 
> 
> And yes Glen.. Something like Maya, maybe not changing the entire
> interface dependant on what your working on, But the ability to bolt
> bits on so to speak and for the parts to integrate with each other. I
> guess more like plugins and scripts worked in Maya rather than the
> task dependant views. 
> As you say with the renderer. It might be cool to have the main window
> display SL as we know it now but be able to get something like an
> advanced minimap in 2d that you could plugin as a replacement for the
> default graphics engine. Something to enable people with lesser
> machines to still be able to interact with the work. As the text based
> viewer have shown in the past it's perfectly feasible for people to
> interact with SL with minimal graphical fluff. 
> Tal

lol... ASCII-art renderer plugin, anyone? ;P

http://aa-project.sourceforge.net/
http://www.jfedor.org/aaquake2/
http://n00n.free.fr/aatv/


These SO make my day. Oh hey - this also solves the alpha z sorting
problems too, doesn't it?

--GC


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Re: [opensource-dev] Display Names open source

[CG Linden]

And the latest builds are available via this permalink:

http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/viewer-identity/latest.html

On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 4:13 PM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)  wrote:

>  We had some technical difficulties with getting it properly prepared
> for publication (resolved with the able help of Aimee), but the source
> for the Display Names branch is now available at:
>
> http://hg.secondlife.com/viewer-identity
>
> It is worthy of notice that this is the first Project release under our
> new development methodology - source code and a running viewer available
> from an internal Linden Lab team other than Snowstorm.
>
>
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Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture

[Ann Otoole]

you mean like the obsolete libraries that show up with tp SL viewers? Like the 
one that dumps a bunch of garbage in the root and then does not uninstall them? 
And that screws up the system forcing you to have to redu windows updates to 
overwrite the obsolete libs from 2005?





From: Nicky Perian 
To: Ann Otoole ; Brendan Wilson 
; OpenSource Mailing List 

Sent: Sat, September 4, 2010 1:14:14 PM
Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture


Libraries, Libraries, Libraries and MS redistribution hell.




From: Ann Otoole 
To: Brendan Wilson ; OpenSource Mailing List 

Sent: Sat, September 4, 2010 12:10:12 PM
Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular  architecture


Why would anyone be burning time on VS2008 when VS2010 is the current 
environment?






From: Brendan Wilson 
To: OpenSource Mailing List 
Sent: Sat, September 4, 2010 9:00:33 AM
Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture

 
Not yet they have just started working on bring it to VS2008 and even doing 
that 
is by a lot of effort from the OS community there even a jira on at least bring 
it to VS2008(vc90)
 
From:opensource-dev-boun...@lists.secondlife.com 
[mailto:opensource-dev-boun...@lists.secondlife.com] On Behalf Of Ann Otoole
Sent: Friday, September 03, 2010 10:11 AM
To: Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence); opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com
Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture
 
Has this project code been brought forward to Visual Studio 2010?
 


 
From:Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) 
To: opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com
Sent: Fri, September 3, 2010 9:32:54 AM
Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture

  On 2010-09-03 9:14, Lawson English wrote:
>On 9/2/10 8:13 AM, Talia Tokugawa wrote:
>> [...]
>> I know this has been suggested before as friends have suggested it.
>> Why not make the viewer more Modular? Introduce a plugin architecture.
>> Allow any user to "build" their own client that fits their needs and
>> requirements.
>>
> Its a HUGE undertaking to do that. LL wasn't willing to tackle the issue
> directly years ago and they probably don't have the resources to do it
> now. It would have to be a community-lead effort and I'm not sure that
> developers are willing to invest the time to refactor the viewer at that
> level unless LL will be willing to seriously consider using the
> resulting re-architectured viewer.

Try us...

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No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3113 - Release Date: 09/04/10 
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Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture

[Patnad Babii]

Switch to C# and everything become easier to deploy and use TFS for QA and 
saving sources. 

From: Ann Otoole 
Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2010 3:19 PM
To: Nicky Perian ; Brendan Wilson ; OpenSource Mailing List 
Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture

you mean like the obsolete libraries that show up with tp SL viewers? Like the 
one that dumps a bunch of garbage in the root and then does not uninstall them? 
And that screws up the system forcing you to have to redu windows updates to 
overwrite the obsolete libs from 2005?




From: Nicky Perian 
To: Ann Otoole ; Brendan Wilson 
; OpenSource Mailing List 

Sent: Sat, September 4, 2010 1:14:14 PM
Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture


Libraries, Libraries, Libraries and MS redistribution hell.



From: Ann Otoole 
To: Brendan Wilson ; OpenSource Mailing List 

Sent: Sat, September 4, 2010 12:10:12 PM
Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture


Why would anyone be burning time on VS2008 when VS2010 is the current 
environment?





From: Brendan Wilson 
To: OpenSource Mailing List 
Sent: Sat, September 4, 2010 9:00:33 AM
Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture


Not yet they have just started working on bring it to VS2008 and even doing 
that is by a lot of effort from the OS community there even a jira on at least 
bring it to VS2008(vc90)



From: opensource-dev-boun...@lists.secondlife.com 
[mailto:opensource-dev-boun...@lists.secondlife.com] On Behalf Of Ann Otoole
Sent: Friday, September 03, 2010 10:11 AM
To: Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence); opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com
Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture



Has this project code been brought forward to Visual Studio 2010?






From: Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) 
To: opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com
Sent: Fri, September 3, 2010 9:32:54 AM
Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture

  On 2010-09-03 9:14, Lawson English wrote:
>On 9/2/10 8:13 AM, Talia Tokugawa wrote:
>> [...]
>> I know this has been suggested before as friends have suggested it.
>> Why not make the viewer more Modular? Introduce a plugin architecture.
>> Allow any user to "build" their own client that fits their needs and
>> requirements.
>>
> Its a HUGE undertaking to do that. LL wasn't willing to tackle the issue
> directly years ago and they probably don't have the resources to do it
> now. It would have to be a community-lead effort and I'm not sure that
> developers are willing to invest the time to refactor the viewer at that
> level unless LL will be willing to seriously consider using the
> resulting re-architectured viewer.

Try us...

___
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Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3113 - Release Date: 09/04/10 
02:34:00








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Re: [opensource-dev] opensource-dev Digest, Vol 8, Issue 14

[Hitomi Tiponi]

Could I point out that I doubt no-one cares about this except the Lindens - so 
why has this change been RAISED TO CRITICAL?.  I run dev, beta, current, and 
old 
versions using different icons and rarely get confused - just  why is it so 
important (nay critical) to have a different coloured menu-bars?  Please tell 
me 
- is it really more critical than a lot of user-requested changes?


Message: 1
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 18:06:18 -0400
From: "Kent Quirk (Q Linden)" 
Subject: [opensource-dev] code review request
To: opensource-dev 
Message-ID: <2fc4eeb7-2db1-44da-94f7-3b7fb5776...@lindenlab.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hi, all, getting back into it a little during recovery. Can I please get a 
review and perhaps pull for:

http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-20945

Code is here:

Fix is in
https://bitbucket.org/kentquirk/vwr-20945

changeset 123b6d316c16

This issue is important to our release team.

Thanks!

   Q
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Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture

[Argent Stonecutter]

On 2010-09-04, at 14:23, Patnad Babii wrote:
> Switch to C# and everything become easier to deploy and use TFS for QA 
> and saving sources.

If you don't mind a 2-5x performance hit on Windows and an elimination of the 
Linux and Mac clients.
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Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture

[Patnad Babii]

most of the games run only in windows anyways, its 80% of their userbase at 
the least.

Also its not true they can't run on mac and linux as theres mono now that 
make it possible.

-Message d'origine- 
From: Argent Stonecutter
Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2010 3:59 PM
To: OpenSource Mailing List
Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture

On 2010-09-04, at 14:23, Patnad Babii wrote:
> Switch to C# and everything become easier to deploy and use TFS for QA 
> and saving sources.

If you don't mind a 2-5x performance hit on Windows and an elimination of 
the Linux and Mac clients.
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[opensource-dev] C# etc (Was: Re: Plugins/Modular architecture)

[Tateru Nino]

  Can I just jump in here and ask *really* nicely that we don't start in 
on a "my programming language has a good two inches on your programming 
language and lasts a good deal longer under hot studio lighting" thread?

Because approximately 60 billion postings later, none of us will have 
actually gained anything from it and we'll all have wished we'd spent 
our time doing something else, like... Oh, I don't know, talking about 
practical viewer development or some-such.

-- 
Tateru Nino
http://dwellonit.taterunino.net/

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Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture

[Daniel Smith]

On Sat, Sep 4, 2010 at 1:37 PM, Patnad Babii  wrote:

> most of the games run only in windows anyways, its 80% of their userbase at
> the least.
>
> Also its not true they can't run on mac and linux as theres mono now that
> make it possible.
>
>
> C# would be too slow.  It is true that Mono would be the Mac and Linux base
for this approach.  It would also involve reinventing too many wheels.

Please rattle off the names of some graphics intensive multiplayer
games/environments based on C#, with stellar frame rates.

If you're going to consider any change of direction that would involve C#,
the far better route to choose would be the Unity3D engine.  That way, you
can have a consistent code base across Windows and Mac, and use C#,
JavaScript, and Boo for scripting.  There would be the huge issue as to how
to tie in legacy LSL client side support.   A front end done in Unity (with
an OpenSim backend) is http://www.reslive.com/

Realistically, the 1.x and 2.x C++ code bases are going to be around for a
long time, and much can be done with them.



-- 
Daniel Smith - Sonoma County, California
http://daniel.org/resume
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Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture

[Nicky Fullton]

> From: Patnad Babii 
> Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture
> To: "OpenSource Mailing List" 
> Date: Saturday, September 4, 2010, 8:37 PM
> most of the games run only in windows
> anyways, its 80% of their userbase at 
> the least.
> 
> Also its not true they can't run on mac and linux as theres
> mono now that 
> make it possible.

This is true. But keep in mind that mono does not support all the features
the Microsoft C# compiler offers.
Neither does it offer all the assemblies Windows has, which I think might
be the bigger problem.

In any case would one have to rewrite the whole code to C#. I am not sure
if you are willing to fund the development and QA of that ;) Right now
I doubt anyone would be willing to pay for that.
Not to forgot someone would have to pay for the TFS server licence and the
client CALs, Unless of course you buy VS Team Edition, which includes a
CAL, but costs some serious cash aswell.
Not to forget you need a admin for that. When you researched about TFS,
some even suggested a full time admin for it. (Not sure if that is really
necessary or just overkill).


Besides that do I think that deploying a .NET app solves some problems. But
on the other hand you just get new problems.

I saw enough corrupted .NET installs and GACs to know that not everything 
is golden in .NET land.

Nicky


  

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Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture

[Nicky Perian]

Ann,
At one point I thought that just skipping 2008 all together would be the way 
forward since LL doesn't seem inclined to move quickly off the obsolete 2005 
anyway. But, I started before 2010 came out and it has been a struggle just to 
get a good build from 2008. IMO, much of the problems have been because I have 
stayed with the Express Versions of 2005 and 2008. So, I have stayed with a 
measured approach of stepping form 2005 to 2008 and build a learning base since 
I was new to all versions of VS and VC++ express. If you want to jump on board 
2010 and give it a go I and I am sure several others on list will  be glad to 
give a additional sets of eyes and test your builds. But these build issues 
take 
a lot of time to resolve namely, rebuilding libraries so that they fit 2010 and 
the viewer-development code base.  
So, it is certainly doable but it takes almost all time available to resolve 
the 
build issues and leaves little time for bug corrections and feature additions.
Nicky





From: Ann Otoole 
To: Nicky Perian ; Brendan Wilson 
; OpenSource Mailing List 

Sent: Sat, September 4, 2010 2:19:09 PM
Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture


you mean like the obsolete libraries that show up with tp SL viewers? Like the 
one that dumps a bunch of garbage in the root and then does not uninstall them? 
And that screws up the system forcing you to have to redu windows updates to 
overwrite the obsolete libs from 2005?





From: Nicky Perian 
To: Ann Otoole ; Brendan Wilson 
; OpenSource Mailing List 

Sent: Sat, September 4, 2010 1:14:14 PM
Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture


Libraries, Libraries, Libraries and MS redistribution hell.




From: Ann Otoole 
To: Brendan Wilson ; OpenSource Mailing List 

Sent: Sat, September 4, 2010 12:10:12 PM
Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular  architecture


Why would anyone be burning time on VS2008 when VS2010 is the current 
environment?






From: Brendan Wilson 
To: OpenSource Mailing List 
Sent: Sat, September 4, 2010 9:00:33 AM
Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture

 
Not yet they have just started working on bring it to VS2008 and even doing 
that 
is by a lot of effort from the OS community there even a jira on at least bring 
it to VS2008(vc90)
 
From:opensource-dev-boun...@lists.secondlife.com 
[mailto:opensource-dev-boun...@lists.secondlife.com] On Behalf Of Ann Otoole
Sent: Friday, September 03, 2010 10:11 AM
To: Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence); opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com
Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture
 
Has this project code been brought forward to Visual Studio 2010?
 


 
From:Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) 
To: opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com
Sent: Fri, September 3, 2010 9:32:54 AM
Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture

  On 2010-09-03 9:14, Lawson English wrote:
>On 9/2/10 8:13 AM, Talia Tokugawa wrote:
>> [...]
>> I know this has been suggested before as friends have suggested it.
>> Why not make the viewer more Modular? Introduce a plugin architecture.
>> Allow any user to "build" their own client that fits their needs and
>> requirements.
>>
> Its a HUGE undertaking to do that. LL wasn't willing to tackle the issue
> directly years ago and they probably don't have the resources to do it
> now. It would have to be a community-lead effort and I'm not sure that
> developers are willing to invest the time to refactor the viewer at that
> level unless LL will be willing to seriously consider using the
> resulting re-architectured viewer.

Try us...

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Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture

[WolfPup Lowenhar]

I agree with NickP, as it took me over 24hours of some serious compiling
time to solve and issue that does not even show up while your compiling the
viewer but when you go to run the viewer after a build cycle. I had to
completely rebuilt the qtwebkit libs using Visual Studio 2008 so that the
manifest mismatch in media_plugin_webkit would be corrected. And right now
cmake and even the develop script(what helps you set up the project so you
can even do a build will not even recognize Visual Studio 2010 properly at
this point in time.

 

WolfpupL

 

From: Nicky Perian [mailto:nickyper...@yahoo.com] 
Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2010 6:52 PM
To: Ann Otoole; Brendan Wilson; OpenSource Mailing List
Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture

 

Ann,

At one point I thought that just skipping 2008 all together would be the way
forward since LL doesn't seem inclined to move quickly off the obsolete 2005
anyway. But, I started before 2010 came out and it has been a struggle just
to get a good build from 2008. IMO, much of the problems have been because I
have stayed with the Express Versions of 2005 and 2008. So, I have stayed
with a measured approach of stepping form 2005 to 2008 and build a learning
base since I was new to all versions of VS and VC++ express. If you want to
jump on board 2010 and give it a go I and I am sure several others on list
will  be glad to give a additional sets of eyes and test your builds. But
these build issues take a lot of time to resolve namely, rebuilding
libraries so that they fit 2010 and the viewer-development code base.  

So, it is certainly doable but it takes almost all time available to resolve
the build issues and leaves little time for bug corrections and feature
additions.

Nicky

 

 

  _  

From: Ann Otoole 
To: Nicky Perian ; Brendan Wilson
; OpenSource Mailing List

Sent: Sat, September 4, 2010 2:19:09 PM
Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture

you mean like the obsolete libraries that show up with tp SL viewers? Like
the one that dumps a bunch of garbage in the root and then does not
uninstall them? And that screws up the system forcing you to have to redu
windows updates to overwrite the obsolete libs from 2005?

 

  _  

From: Nicky Perian 
To: Ann Otoole ; Brendan Wilson
; OpenSource Mailing List

Sent: Sat, September 4, 2010 1:14:14 PM
Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture

Libraries, Libraries, Libraries and MS redistribution hell.

 

  _  

From: Ann Otoole 
To: Brendan Wilson ; OpenSource Mailing List

Sent: Sat, September 4, 2010 12:10:12 PM
Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture

Why would anyone be burning time on VS2008 when VS2010 is the current
environment?

 

 

  _  

From: Brendan Wilson 
To: OpenSource Mailing List 
Sent: Sat, September 4, 2010 9:00:33 AM
Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture

Not yet they have just started working on bring it to VS2008 and even doing
that is by a lot of effort from the OS community there even a jira on at
least bring it to VS2008(vc90)

 

From: opensource-dev-boun...@lists.secondlife.com
[mailto:opensource-dev-boun...@lists.secondlife.com] On Behalf Of Ann Otoole
Sent: Friday, September 03, 2010 10:11 AM
To: Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence); opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com
Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture

 

Has this project code been brought forward to Visual Studio 2010?

 

  _  

From: Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) 
To: opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com
Sent: Fri, September 3, 2010 9:32:54 AM
Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture

  On 2010-09-03 9:14, Lawson English wrote:
>On 9/2/10 8:13 AM, Talia Tokugawa wrote:
>> [...]
>> I know this has been suggested before as friends have suggested it.
>> Why not make the viewer more Modular? Introduce a plugin architecture.
>> Allow any user to "build" their own client that fits their needs and
>> requirements.
>>
> Its a HUGE undertaking to do that. LL wasn't willing to tackle the issue
> directly years ago and they probably don't have the resources to do it
> now. It would have to be a community-lead effort and I'm not sure that
> developers are willing to invest the time to refactor the viewer at that
> level unless LL will be willing to seriously consider using the
> resulting re-architectured viewer.

Try us...

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Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting
privileges

 

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3113 - Release Date: 09/04/10
02:34:00

 

 

 

 

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3114 - Release Date: 09/04/10
14:34:00

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