[Numpy-discussion] Re: NumPy Development Meeting Wednesday - Triage Focus
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[Numpy-discussion] What happened to the numpy.random documentation?
Hi All, The documentation of Numpy's submodules used to have a fairly standard structure as shown here in the 1.16 documentation: https://docs.scipy.org/doc/numpy-1.16.1/reference/routines.random.html Now the same page in the API documentation looks like this: https://numpy.org/doc/stable/reference/random/index.html While I appreciate the expository text in the new documentation about how the generators work, this new version is much less useful as a reference to the API. It seems like it might fit better in the user manual rather than the API reference. >From my perspective it seems like the new version of the documentation is harder to navigate in terms of finding information quickly (more scrolling, harder to get a bird's eye view of functions in various submodules, etc). Has anyone else had a similar reaction to the changes? I teach a couple of courses in scientific computing and bioinformatics and my students seem to also struggle to get a sense of what the different modules offer based on the new version of the documentation. For now, I'm referring them to the old (1.70) reference manuals as a better way to get acquainted with the libraries. Cheers, Paul Magwene ___ NumPy-Discussion mailing list -- numpy-discussion@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to numpy-discussion-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/ Member address: arch...@mail-archive.com
[Numpy-discussion] Re: What happened to the numpy.random documentation?
Hi Paul, Do you think having a page with the flat list of routines back, in addition to the explanations, would solve this? - Melissa On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 1:34 PM Paul M. wrote: > Hi All, > > The documentation of Numpy's submodules used to have a fairly standard > structure as shown here in the 1.16 documentation: > > https://docs.scipy.org/doc/numpy-1.16.1/reference/routines.random.html > > Now the same page in the API documentation looks like this: > > https://numpy.org/doc/stable/reference/random/index.html > > While I appreciate the expository text in the new documentation about how > the generators work, this new version is much less useful as a reference to > the API. It seems like it might fit better in the user manual rather than > the API reference. > > From my perspective it seems like the new version of the documentation is > harder to navigate in terms of finding information quickly (more scrolling, > harder to get a bird's eye view of functions in various submodules, etc). > > Has anyone else had a similar reaction to the changes? I teach a couple of > courses in scientific computing and bioinformatics and my students seem to > also struggle to get a sense of what the different modules offer based on > the new version of the documentation. For now, I'm referring them to the > old (1.70) reference manuals as a better way to get acquainted with the > libraries. > > Cheers, > Paul Magwene > ___ > NumPy-Discussion mailing list -- numpy-discussion@python.org > To unsubscribe send an email to numpy-discussion-le...@python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/ > Member address: meliss...@gmail.com > ___ NumPy-Discussion mailing list -- numpy-discussion@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to numpy-discussion-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/ Member address: arch...@mail-archive.com
[Numpy-discussion] Re: What happened to the numpy.random documentation?
I second that reinstating such a list would be extremely useful. My issue has been with the polynomial package, but the end result is the same. - Joe On Thu, Oct 14, 2021, 12:45 Melissa Mendonça wrote: > Hi Paul, > > Do you think having a page with the flat list of routines back, in > addition to the explanations, would solve this? > > - Melissa > > On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 1:34 PM Paul M. wrote: > >> Hi All, >> >> The documentation of Numpy's submodules used to have a fairly standard >> structure as shown here in the 1.16 documentation: >> >> https://docs.scipy.org/doc/numpy-1.16.1/reference/routines.random.html >> >> Now the same page in the API documentation looks like this: >> >> https://numpy.org/doc/stable/reference/random/index.html >> >> While I appreciate the expository text in the new documentation about how >> the generators work, this new version is much less useful as a reference to >> the API. It seems like it might fit better in the user manual rather than >> the API reference. >> >> From my perspective it seems like the new version of the documentation is >> harder to navigate in terms of finding information quickly (more scrolling, >> harder to get a bird's eye view of functions in various submodules, etc). >> >> Has anyone else had a similar reaction to the changes? I teach a couple >> of courses in scientific computing and bioinformatics and my students seem >> to also struggle to get a sense of what the different modules offer based >> on the new version of the documentation. For now, I'm referring them to the >> old (1.70) reference manuals as a better way to get acquainted with the >> libraries. >> >> Cheers, >> Paul Magwene >> ___ >> NumPy-Discussion mailing list -- numpy-discussion@python.org >> To unsubscribe send an email to numpy-discussion-le...@python.org >> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/ >> Member address: meliss...@gmail.com >> > ___ > NumPy-Discussion mailing list -- numpy-discussion@python.org > To unsubscribe send an email to numpy-discussion-le...@python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/ > Member address: jfoxrabinov...@gmail.com > ___ NumPy-Discussion mailing list -- numpy-discussion@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to numpy-discussion-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/ Member address: arch...@mail-archive.com
[Numpy-discussion] Re: What happened to the numpy.random documentation?
Hi Melissa, I think that's the right approach. Looking through the current docs, I think the page on the FFT module is exemplary in this regard: https://numpy.org/doc/stable/reference/routines.fft.html It lists all the available functions (with links to details), and then has a section on "Background Information", "Implementation Details", etc. It's easy to get a quick overview of what the available functions are, and then ease into the background info in terms of how it works. Cheers, Paul On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 12:44 PM Melissa Mendonça wrote: > Hi Paul, > > Do you think having a page with the flat list of routines back, in > addition to the explanations, would solve this? > > - Melissa > > On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 1:34 PM Paul M. wrote: > >> Hi All, >> >> The documentation of Numpy's submodules used to have a fairly standard >> structure as shown here in the 1.16 documentation: >> >> https://docs.scipy.org/doc/numpy-1.16.1/reference/routines.random.html >> >> Now the same page in the API documentation looks like this: >> >> https://numpy.org/doc/stable/reference/random/index.html >> >> While I appreciate the expository text in the new documentation about how >> the generators work, this new version is much less useful as a reference to >> the API. It seems like it might fit better in the user manual rather than >> the API reference. >> >> From my perspective it seems like the new version of the documentation is >> harder to navigate in terms of finding information quickly (more scrolling, >> harder to get a bird's eye view of functions in various submodules, etc). >> >> Has anyone else had a similar reaction to the changes? I teach a couple >> of courses in scientific computing and bioinformatics and my students seem >> to also struggle to get a sense of what the different modules offer based >> on the new version of the documentation. For now, I'm referring them to the >> old (1.70) reference manuals as a better way to get acquainted with the >> libraries. >> >> Cheers, >> Paul Magwene >> ___ >> NumPy-Discussion mailing list -- numpy-discussion@python.org >> To unsubscribe send an email to numpy-discussion-le...@python.org >> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/ >> Member address: meliss...@gmail.com >> > ___ > NumPy-Discussion mailing list -- numpy-discussion@python.org > To unsubscribe send an email to numpy-discussion-le...@python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/ > Member address: pmma...@gmail.com > ___ NumPy-Discussion mailing list -- numpy-discussion@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to numpy-discussion-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/ Member address: arch...@mail-archive.com
[Numpy-discussion] Re: What happened to the numpy.random documentation?
I think the issue in random specifically is that a raw list of available functions does not provide suitable guidance for someone looking for random variate generating function. This is because the module-level API is mostly dominated by methods of the singleton RandomState instance. Best practice going forward is to use the methods of a Generator instance, most likely provided by default_rng(). A simple API-list will not be able to provide this guidance. FFT has a very simple API and so a simple list make sense. Similarly, np.random before the generation was revamped, which is hy the old-style was adequate for <=1.16, but not for >=1.17 Kevin On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 6:09 PM Paul M. wrote: > Hi Melissa, > > I think that's the right approach. Looking through the current docs, I > think the page on the FFT module is exemplary in this regard: > > https://numpy.org/doc/stable/reference/routines.fft.html > > It lists all the available functions (with links to details), and then has > a section on "Background Information", "Implementation Details", etc. It's > easy to get a quick overview of what the available functions are, and then > ease into the background info in terms of how it works. > > Cheers, > Paul > > > On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 12:44 PM Melissa Mendonça > wrote: > >> Hi Paul, >> >> Do you think having a page with the flat list of routines back, in >> addition to the explanations, would solve this? >> >> - Melissa >> >> On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 1:34 PM Paul M. wrote: >> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> The documentation of Numpy's submodules used to have a fairly standard >>> structure as shown here in the 1.16 documentation: >>> >>> https://docs.scipy.org/doc/numpy-1.16.1/reference/routines.random.html >>> >>> Now the same page in the API documentation looks like this: >>> >>> https://numpy.org/doc/stable/reference/random/index.html >>> >>> While I appreciate the expository text in the new documentation about >>> how the generators work, this new version is much less useful as a >>> reference to the API. It seems like it might fit better in the user manual >>> rather than the API reference. >>> >>> From my perspective it seems like the new version of the documentation >>> is harder to navigate in terms of finding information quickly (more >>> scrolling, harder to get a bird's eye view of functions in various >>> submodules, etc). >>> >>> Has anyone else had a similar reaction to the changes? I teach a couple >>> of courses in scientific computing and bioinformatics and my students seem >>> to also struggle to get a sense of what the different modules offer based >>> on the new version of the documentation. For now, I'm referring them to the >>> old (1.70) reference manuals as a better way to get acquainted with the >>> libraries. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Paul Magwene >>> ___ >>> NumPy-Discussion mailing list -- numpy-discussion@python.org >>> To unsubscribe send an email to numpy-discussion-le...@python.org >>> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/ >>> Member address: meliss...@gmail.com >>> >> ___ >> NumPy-Discussion mailing list -- numpy-discussion@python.org >> To unsubscribe send an email to numpy-discussion-le...@python.org >> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/ >> Member address: pmma...@gmail.com >> > ___ > NumPy-Discussion mailing list -- numpy-discussion@python.org > To unsubscribe send an email to numpy-discussion-le...@python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/ > Member address: kevin.k.shepp...@gmail.com > ___ NumPy-Discussion mailing list -- numpy-discussion@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to numpy-discussion-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/ Member address: arch...@mail-archive.com
[Numpy-discussion] Re: What happened to the numpy.random documentation?
Hi Kevin, I'm all for wanting the docs to guide folks to current best practice, but in its current form the documentation for this module is quite opaque. Maybe a table like the old version that maps old functionality to exemplar versions using Generator instances would be a useful compromise? Cheers, Paul On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 1:19 PM Kevin Sheppard wrote: > I think the issue in random specifically is that a raw list of > available functions does not provide suitable guidance for someone looking > for random variate generating function. This is because the module-level > API is mostly dominated by methods of the singleton RandomState instance. > Best practice going forward is to use the methods of a Generator instance, > most likely provided by default_rng(). A simple API-list will not be able > to provide this guidance. > > FFT has a very simple API and so a simple list make sense. Similarly, > np.random before the generation was revamped, which is hy the old-style was > adequate for <=1.16, but not for >=1.17 > > Kevin > > > On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 6:09 PM Paul M. wrote: > >> Hi Melissa, >> >> I think that's the right approach. Looking through the current docs, I >> think the page on the FFT module is exemplary in this regard: >> >> https://numpy.org/doc/stable/reference/routines.fft.html >> >> It lists all the available functions (with links to details), and then >> has a section on "Background Information", "Implementation Details", etc. >> It's easy to get a quick overview of what the available functions are, and >> then ease into the background info in terms of how it works. >> >> Cheers, >> Paul >> >> >> On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 12:44 PM Melissa Mendonça >> wrote: >> >>> Hi Paul, >>> >>> Do you think having a page with the flat list of routines back, in >>> addition to the explanations, would solve this? >>> >>> - Melissa >>> >>> On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 1:34 PM Paul M. wrote: >>> Hi All, The documentation of Numpy's submodules used to have a fairly standard structure as shown here in the 1.16 documentation: https://docs.scipy.org/doc/numpy-1.16.1/reference/routines.random.html Now the same page in the API documentation looks like this: https://numpy.org/doc/stable/reference/random/index.html While I appreciate the expository text in the new documentation about how the generators work, this new version is much less useful as a reference to the API. It seems like it might fit better in the user manual rather than the API reference. From my perspective it seems like the new version of the documentation is harder to navigate in terms of finding information quickly (more scrolling, harder to get a bird's eye view of functions in various submodules, etc). Has anyone else had a similar reaction to the changes? I teach a couple of courses in scientific computing and bioinformatics and my students seem to also struggle to get a sense of what the different modules offer based on the new version of the documentation. For now, I'm referring them to the old (1.70) reference manuals as a better way to get acquainted with the libraries. Cheers, Paul Magwene ___ NumPy-Discussion mailing list -- numpy-discussion@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to numpy-discussion-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/ Member address: meliss...@gmail.com >>> ___ >>> NumPy-Discussion mailing list -- numpy-discussion@python.org >>> To unsubscribe send an email to numpy-discussion-le...@python.org >>> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/ >>> Member address: pmma...@gmail.com >>> >> ___ >> NumPy-Discussion mailing list -- numpy-discussion@python.org >> To unsubscribe send an email to numpy-discussion-le...@python.org >> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/ >> Member address: kevin.k.shepp...@gmail.com >> > ___ > NumPy-Discussion mailing list -- numpy-discussion@python.org > To unsubscribe send an email to numpy-discussion-le...@python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/ > Member address: pmma...@gmail.com > ___ NumPy-Discussion mailing list -- numpy-discussion@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to numpy-discussion-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/ Member address: arch...@mail-archive.com
[Numpy-discussion] Re: What happened to the numpy.random documentation?
On Thursday, October 14, 2021, Joseph Fox-Rabinovitz < jfoxrabinov...@gmail.com> wrote: > I second that reinstating such a list would be extremely useful. My issue > has been with the polynomial package, but the end result is the same. > There's a mostly relevant issue: https://github.com/numpy/numpy/issues/19420 András > > > - Joe > > On Thu, Oct 14, 2021, 12:45 Melissa Mendonça wrote: > >> Hi Paul, >> >> Do you think having a page with the flat list of routines back, in >> addition to the explanations, would solve this? >> >> - Melissa >> >> On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 1:34 PM Paul M. wrote: >> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> The documentation of Numpy's submodules used to have a fairly standard >>> structure as shown here in the 1.16 documentation: >>> >>> https://docs.scipy.org/doc/numpy-1.16.1/reference/routines.random.html >>> >>> Now the same page in the API documentation looks like this: >>> >>> https://numpy.org/doc/stable/reference/random/index.html >>> >>> While I appreciate the expository text in the new documentation about >>> how the generators work, this new version is much less useful as a >>> reference to the API. It seems like it might fit better in the user manual >>> rather than the API reference. >>> >>> From my perspective it seems like the new version of the documentation >>> is harder to navigate in terms of finding information quickly (more >>> scrolling, harder to get a bird's eye view of functions in various >>> submodules, etc). >>> >>> Has anyone else had a similar reaction to the changes? I teach a couple >>> of courses in scientific computing and bioinformatics and my students seem >>> to also struggle to get a sense of what the different modules offer based >>> on the new version of the documentation. For now, I'm referring them to the >>> old (1.70) reference manuals as a better way to get acquainted with the >>> libraries. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Paul Magwene >>> ___ >>> NumPy-Discussion mailing list -- numpy-discussion@python.org >>> To unsubscribe send an email to numpy-discussion-le...@python.org >>> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/ >>> Member address: meliss...@gmail.com >>> >> ___ >> NumPy-Discussion mailing list -- numpy-discussion@python.org >> To unsubscribe send an email to numpy-discussion-le...@python.org >> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/ >> Member address: jfoxrabinov...@gmail.com >> > ___ NumPy-Discussion mailing list -- numpy-discussion@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to numpy-discussion-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/ Member address: arch...@mail-archive.com
[Numpy-discussion] Re: What happened to the numpy.random documentation?
On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 7:19 PM Kevin Sheppard wrote: > I think the issue in random specifically is that a raw list of > available functions does not provide suitable guidance for someone looking > for random variate generating function. This is because the module-level > API is mostly dominated by methods of the singleton RandomState instance. > Best practice going forward is to use the methods of a Generator instance, > most likely provided by default_rng(). A simple API-list will not be able > to provide this guidance. > The list can be annotated with headings and one-line or one-paragraph descriptions, something like: ``` ## Generator interface This is the recommended interface ... ## Interface for unit testing and legacy code ``` The complaint is very much valid here, I have made the same one before. The way the page currently is written makes little sense - it addresses a user transitioning from the old to the new interface, or explicitly comparing the two for some reason. To a user just looking for information on NumPy today, that's more confusing than helpful. The page also talks about "The new interface", "What's new and different", "Some long-overdue API cleanup", and "Since Numpy version 1.17.0" - that all belongs in a NEP, and not in the API reference docs. Cheers, Ralf > FFT has a very simple API and so a simple list make sense. Similarly, > np.random before the generation was revamped, which is hy the old-style was > adequate for <=1.16, but not for >=1.17 > > Kevin > > > On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 6:09 PM Paul M. wrote: > >> Hi Melissa, >> >> I think that's the right approach. Looking through the current docs, I >> think the page on the FFT module is exemplary in this regard: >> >> https://numpy.org/doc/stable/reference/routines.fft.html >> >> It lists all the available functions (with links to details), and then >> has a section on "Background Information", "Implementation Details", etc. >> It's easy to get a quick overview of what the available functions are, and >> then ease into the background info in terms of how it works. >> >> Cheers, >> Paul >> >> >> On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 12:44 PM Melissa Mendonça >> wrote: >> >>> Hi Paul, >>> >>> Do you think having a page with the flat list of routines back, in >>> addition to the explanations, would solve this? >>> >>> - Melissa >>> >>> On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 1:34 PM Paul M. wrote: >>> Hi All, The documentation of Numpy's submodules used to have a fairly standard structure as shown here in the 1.16 documentation: https://docs.scipy.org/doc/numpy-1.16.1/reference/routines.random.html Now the same page in the API documentation looks like this: https://numpy.org/doc/stable/reference/random/index.html While I appreciate the expository text in the new documentation about how the generators work, this new version is much less useful as a reference to the API. It seems like it might fit better in the user manual rather than the API reference. From my perspective it seems like the new version of the documentation is harder to navigate in terms of finding information quickly (more scrolling, harder to get a bird's eye view of functions in various submodules, etc). Has anyone else had a similar reaction to the changes? I teach a couple of courses in scientific computing and bioinformatics and my students seem to also struggle to get a sense of what the different modules offer based on the new version of the documentation. For now, I'm referring them to the old (1.70) reference manuals as a better way to get acquainted with the libraries. Cheers, Paul Magwene ___ NumPy-Discussion mailing list -- numpy-discussion@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to numpy-discussion-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/ Member address: meliss...@gmail.com >>> ___ >>> NumPy-Discussion mailing list -- numpy-discussion@python.org >>> To unsubscribe send an email to numpy-discussion-le...@python.org >>> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/ >>> Member address: pmma...@gmail.com >>> >> ___ >> NumPy-Discussion mailing list -- numpy-discussion@python.org >> To unsubscribe send an email to numpy-discussion-le...@python.org >> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/ >> Member address: kevin.k.shepp...@gmail.com >> > ___ > NumPy-Discussion mailing list -- numpy-discussion@python.org > To unsubscribe send an email to numpy-discussion-le...@python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/ > Member address: ralf.gomm...@googlemail.com > _
[Numpy-discussion] Re: What happened to the numpy.random documentation?
On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 10:36 AM Paul M. wrote: > Hi All, > > The documentation of Numpy's submodules used to have a fairly standard > structure as shown here in the 1.16 documentation: > > https://docs.scipy.org/doc/numpy-1.16.1/reference/routines.random.html > > Now the same page in the API documentation looks like this: > > https://numpy.org/doc/stable/reference/random/index.html > > While I appreciate the expository text in the new documentation about how > the generators work, this new version is much less useful as a reference to > the API. It seems like it might fit better in the user manual rather than > the API reference. > > From my perspective it seems like the new version of the documentation is > harder to navigate in terms of finding information quickly (more scrolling, > harder to get a bird's eye view of functions in various submodules, etc). > > Has anyone else had a similar reaction to the changes? I teach a couple of > courses in scientific computing and bioinformatics and my students seem to > also struggle to get a sense of what the different modules offer based on > the new version of the documentation. For now, I'm referring them to the > old (1.70) reference manuals as a better way to get acquainted with the > libraries. > > Agree. As a knowledgeable user, I like short and sweet for reference purposes. Ideally, there would be an easy way to get to the basic facts, and then access extra explanatory material if needed. Chuck ___ NumPy-Discussion mailing list -- numpy-discussion@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to numpy-discussion-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/ Member address: arch...@mail-archive.com
