[Mailman-Users] Mailman equivalent of Yahoo "Special Announcements"?
Hi, I'm about to migrate a Yahoo Groups mailing list to mailman. Yahoo Groups offers four delivery modes: - individual emails - daily digests - no mail - special announcements only and I have list members set to all four of them. The first three I can easily deal with, but I'm not sure how to handle those set to the last. As far as I can tell, the only difference between a Special Announcement and a regular post in Yahoo Groups is that a moderator can tick a checkbox when writing a Special Announcement on Yahoo's web UI. I've scanned the FAQs and can't see anything obvious about this, nor can I see anything in the mailman web UI. I could just decide not to support this special announcements feature, but if I wanted to support it, what would be a good approach? The only thing I can think of would be to create a second list, mylist-announce, and subscribe everyone to that as well as mylist. But that makes user management tricky, requires new members to subscribe to both, unsubscribe from both, etc. Have I missed something obvious? If not, is there another, simpler, work-around? Thank you, -- Steve -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
[Mailman-Users] Understanding patterns of unsubscribe
Hi all, Back in September, I migrated an announcement-only mailing list from Yahoo to mailman, with approximately 1800 email addresses. An unknown number of these were dead. The mailing list I am running sends out one, maybe two, emails a month, at around the same time of the month. It's not a discussion list, so there are no replies from subscribers. I expected that the first month, there would be a lot of automatic unsubscriptions, as the dead addresses were noted and removed, and then in subsequent months there might only be a trickle of automatic removals. To my surprise though, there has been a steady pattern of mass unsubscriptions each month, around 100-200 each month following the posted announcement. I'm not sure whether this is normal (if it is, unless the number of unsubscriptions begins to fall soon, I'll soon be left with no subscribers) or whether I'm doing something wrong. Here are my bounce processing settings: bounce_processing = Yes bounce_score_threshold = 4.0 bounce_info_stale_after = 65 bounce_you_are_disabled_warnings = 3 bounce_you_are_disabled_warnings_interval = 10 Remembering that I only send out 1 or 2 emails every 30 days (give or take a couple of days in either direction), does this seem reasonable? Or is my bounce processing too strict? Thanks in advance, -- Steve -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
[Mailman-Users] Yahoo spam detection
Some of my Yahoo subscribers are reporting that emails from my mailing list are being flagged as spam. As far as I can tell, I'm not using spammy words, and the emails are plain text not HTML. I have SPF set up. One of the Yahoo subscribers kindly forwarded me the full headers and I can see these which appear relevant: X-YahooFilteredBulk: 150.101.137.129 Received-SPF: pass (domain of pearwood.info designates 150.101.137.129 as permitted sender) X-Originating-IP: [150.101.137.129] Authentication-Results: mta1310.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=pearwood.info; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=pearwood.info; dkim=neutral (no sig) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AqD1AA1PlVR20UxqPGdsb2JhbABBGoNYWIMEs1KFGUqBUIYAhFwBgQKCMQMgdBc BAQEBAQYBAQEBODuEDgYZAQgREgMFAgYYCgQDAQIGAiQCBRYHCAIBBgMCAQIBDx AICgQeBQYCAgEUAQIBAgKHdwMQCTy6DYFwhGOJUQ2Fa4EhgWqGfwGCOYJMCgQDA QKEfgWDfTAGhB8rgjCDBYJSSYF/gUGCDXQwgjOCBgwhgzaCH4IZgmyCfoFzKjEB AQkBdwkXgSABAQE X-IronPort-SPAM: SPAM Googling suggests that nobody except Cisco can decipher the X-IronPort-Anti-Spam header, and they refuse to tell even their customers what it means, let alone people like me. Can anyone suggest something I can do to convince Yahoo I'm not sending spam? Thanks, -- Steve -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Yahoo spam detection
On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 01:13:35PM +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > Steven D'Aprano writes: > > > Some of my Yahoo subscribers are reporting that emails from my > > mailing list are being flagged as spam. As far as I can tell, I'm > > not using spammy words, and the emails are plain text not HTML. I > > have SPF set up. > > I think it might be helpful to set up DKIM as well. The standard > prohibits differentiating between unsigned mail and mail with a failed > signature, but you are allowed to decrease spamminess scores for a > successful signature verification, and also for From alignment (aka > DMARC pass). (Yes, I believe that Yahoo conforms to standards in this > respect, though I can't be sure.) Okay, I will look into that. > The FAQ as mentioned by Mark already (fastest consult in the West!): > http://wiki.list.org/x/4oA9 > > A useful tidbit from that FAQ: Yahoo's feedback loop is at > http://feedbackloop.yahoo.net/index.php > > > X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: > > true > > I hate IronPort. My employer uses it and enables [SPAM] subject tags, > so it's *really* obvious that about 40% (!!) of spam is *not* caught, > and on the other hand about 15% of ham is tagged SPAM or SUSPECT SPAM. > Why bother? But it's from Cisco, so you know it must be good! I've seen people on the Internet make exactly that claim: it is sold by Cisco, therefore you know it must be reliable. -- Steven -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Yahoo spam detection
On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 07:36:54PM -0800, Mark Sapiro wrote: > On 12/22/2014 03:18 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > > > > One of the Yahoo subscribers kindly forwarded me the full headers and I > > can see these which appear relevant: > > > > > > X-YahooFilteredBulk: > > 150.101.137.129 > > Received-SPF: > > pass (domain of pearwood.info designates 150.101.137.129 as > > permitted sender) > > X-Originating-IP: > > [150.101.137.129] > > Authentication-Results: > > mta1310.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=pearwood.info; domainkeys=neutral > > (no sig); from=pearwood.info; dkim=neutral (no sig) > > X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: > > true > > X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: > > AqD1AA1PlVR20UxqPGdsb2JhbABBGoNYWIMEs1KFGUqBUIYAhFwBgQKCMQMgdBc > > BAQEBAQYBAQEBODuEDgYZAQgREgMFAgYYCgQDAQIGAiQCBRYHCAIBBgMCAQIBDx > > AICgQeBQYCAgEUAQIBAgKHdwMQCTy6DYFwhGOJUQ2Fa4EhgWqGfwGCOYJMCgQDA > > QKEfgWDfTAGhB8rgjCDBYJSSYF/gUGCDXQwgjOCBgwhgzaCH4IZgmyCfoFzKjEB > > AQkBdwkXgSABAQE > > X-IronPort-SPAM: > > SPAM > > > > Looking more closely, I see issues here. First, none of the mail I > receive at yahoo.com has any X-Ironport-* headers. This is not Yahoo > using an IronPort appliance. It may be your outgoing MTA or some other > MTA in the delivery chain. Where are these headers in the context of the > Received: headers. That will tell you which MTA added them. The Received headers look like this: Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO ipmail06.adl2.internode.on.net) (150.101.137.129) by mta1310.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; Sat, 20 Dec 2014 10:32:13 + X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: [gibberish removed] X-IronPort-SPAM: SPAM Received: from ppp118-209-76-106.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net (HELO pearwood.info) ([118.209.76.106]) by ipmail06.adl2.internode.on.net with ESMTP; 20 Dec 2014 21:01:15 +1030 Received: from ando.pearwood.info (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by pearwood.info (Postfix) with ESMTP id B67FE120737; Sat, 20 Dec 2014 21:11:52 +1100 (EST) Internode is my ISP, and I shall talk to them, but I don't see any sign that they are adding X-IronPort-* headers to my outgoing mail. I subscribe my work email address, and they don't get any IronPort headers. > It appears your domain is pearwood.info and the IP address of the > sending server is 150.101.137.129. Yes, my domain is pearwood.info. 150.101.137.129 appears to be (one of?) my ISP's mail server(s). I have been advised that because I have a dynamic IP address, I should have my outgoing mail go via my ISP's mail server. So I have this in my postfix config: myhostname = pearwood.info mydomain = pearwood.info relayhost = mail.internode.on.net > There may be configuration issues around this. > > A server sending mail should have a rDNS PTR record pointing to a domain > and that domain should have an A record with the IP address of the > server. See > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forward-confirmed_reverse_DNS>. The > absence of this is a big red flag for many ISPs > > pearwood.info has no A record. the rDNS PTR for IP 150.101.137.129 is > ipmail06.adl2.internode.on.net which does have an A record with IP > 150.101.137.129 so maybe this is OK, but it is something to think about. Do you think I should set up an A record for pearwood.info? > Note that it is not necessary that the server's canonical name be the > domain of the list. It helps if SPF permits the server for the domain > and it does in your case, but if I had to guess, I'd guess the > > > X-YahooFilteredBulk: > > 150.101.137.129 > > is the relevant header and it means Yahoo doesn't like your IP for some > reason. I shall certainly talk to my ISP. Is it worth trying to talk to Yahoo? Are they likely to care? I've been told by some Yahoo users that Yahoo's unofficial policy seems to be that *all* bulk email not originating from Yahoo itself is treated as ipso facto spam. Thanks very much for your help, and may you have a great Christmas and New Year. -- Steven -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Understanding patterns of unsubscribe
On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 06:48:44PM -0500, Robert Heller wrote: > Are these mass removals automatic or manual? That is, is the list doing this > or are your subscribers doing it? They seem to be automatic. Unless 80+ people all decide to unsubscribe within one minute of each other :-) > Some notes: > > 1) What are you doing about DMARC, DKIM, and ADSP? Remember, *Yahoo* has a > strict > reject DMARC policy. Of course this really kicks in if a Yahoo person posts. > It *you* are the only poster and are posting from a non-Yahoo address (that is > from a domain that does not have a strict reject DMARC policy), then this does > not apply. I am the only poster. It is an announce-only mailing list. > 2) YahooGroups *does not* (AFAIK) send out monthly reminders. Mailman does. > Your Yahoo users might be thinking the Mailman monthly reminder is some sort > of robotic spam message and rejecting it. I have monthly password reminders set to No. > 2) It is possible that many of your Yahoo users are actually alive and well, > but that YahooGroups suspended mail delivery of the YahooGroups mailings. Now > that you switched to Mailman, these users are 'suddenly' getting these > messages from a mailing list they have completely forgotten about. If they were manual unsubscribes, I would agree. -- Steven -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 05:45:58PM -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote: > I do understand that in some business situations (contract negotiations, > attorney/client communication and the like), it is useful and pretty > much demanded that each message contain the full transcript of what went > before, I don't think it is useful. It might be demanded, but that's just because it's the convention, not because it's useful. If it were useful to include a full transcript of everything that went on prior in each and every message, lawyers would do so with paper correspondence (and charge the client for photocopying). But they don't. I've been through a number of (thankfully minor) legal actions, and going through conventional top-posted emails is *painful*. It makes searching for keywords ineffective in all the email clients I've used. Nobody ever bothers to read or go through the quoted transcripts, why would you read the quoted-to-the-nth-degree text when you can read the original? The worst example I found was quoted twenty-one levels deep. A three line response plus sig (naturally including one of those nonsense legal disclaimers about not reading the email if you aren't the intended recipient) followed by about thirty pages of quoted text starting with > then >> then >>> and so on to >. And it was my job to go through it, and the rest of the emails in the thread, in both directions, looking for anything relevent to the legal action. Even though I wasn't actively reading the quoted sections, the sheer volume of cruft to wade through is brain-melting. Counting the entire conversation, the original post was duplicated something like fifty or sixty times. Fun times. > but this has no place on an email discussion list. Agreed! But too many people replying with their smart phones and iProducts can't do anything else... > This is a major hot-button issue for me, The above is only scratching > the surface. I feel your pain :-) -- Steve -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 10:22:24AM +1100, Peter Shute wrote: > Lindsay Haisley wrote: > > > > And if html wasn't the default for so many clients. > > > > Don't get me started! To the best of my knowledge, there is > > no unified standard for HTML-ized email. Microsoft has "Rich > > Text", Apple has another standard. Digests can get mucked up > > The default for MS Outlook seems to be HTML rather than Rich Text. What Outlook, Hotmail etc. call "Rich Text" is in fact HTML, not to be confused with Microsoft's interchange Rich Text Format, RTF. There is an "Enriched Text" standard for email, which supports basic formatting without the bulk and security implementations of HTML, but alas nobody uses it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enriched_text -- Steve -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 02:31:08PM +1100, Peter Shute wrote:
> Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> > > The default for MS Outlook seems to be HTML rather than Rich Text.
> >
> > What Outlook, Hotmail etc. call "Rich Text" is in fact HTML,
> > not to be confused with Microsoft's interchange Rich Text Format, RTF.
>
> Outlook offers Plain text, HTML and Rich text as formatting options,
> so I assume the Rich text they're talking about might actually be RTF.
I understand that Outlook's Rich Text Format is actually the old
win.dat format:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_Neutral_Encapsulation_Format
Recent versions of Outlook apparently automatically convert "Rich Text"
to HTML when you send to "an Internet recipient" (I assume that means a
non-local user when using Exchange), which might explain why selecting
Rich Text in Outlook appears to send HTML, and why win.dat attachments
are now so rare. I don't think I've seen one in the wild for a decade
or more.
https://support.office.com/en-gb/article/Change-the-message-format-to-HTML-Rich-Text-or-plain-text-de2acb3d-3330-42a1-b02a-5f582fc6e796
If anyone cares enough to look for email sent from Outlook, you can
probably determine for yourself what it is sending by inspecting the
MIME type of the attachments, or looking at the raw content of the
email. If you see lots of formatting commands inside angle brackets
< ... > it's probably HTML, if they are inside braces { ... } (but they
won't be ;-) it's probably the Microsoft RTF exchange format, and if you
see a win.dat or winmail.dat attachment it will be "Outlook Rich Text".
--
Steve
--
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Re: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not top-post; do away with mailing list digests
On Thu, Apr 02, 2015 at 08:09:12PM -0700, David Benfell wrote: > The consensus on most technical lists I've seen is very strongly in > favor of bottom posting, Surely not. Bottom-posting is, if anything, worse than top-posting. With top-posting at least you get to see the reply[1] at the top of the post, and can delete it and move on with your life. With bottom- posting you have to scroll past seven pages of quoted text before you get to see their reply. > with top-posters subject to flaming. But > outside that world, I find top-posting to be the norm. I agree with > the logic of bottom-posting, because it is--well--logical, but cannot > hope to prevail. Perhaps you mean interleaved or inline posting, as I've done here? [1] Often one line. On technical lists, that's often "Works for me." On non-technical lists, "Me too!". -- Steve -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface look like?
On Fri, Apr 03, 2015 at 06:48:12AM +1100, Andrew Stuart wrote: > > What’s on your wishlist for the perfect Mailman web interface? > > If you can provide links to show where your ideas are done well that would > help to illustrate your thoughts. > > Any killer features that you’d like to see in the perfect Mailman web > interface? Are you referring to the administration UI, the subscribe UI, the archives, or what? Speaking rather generically: A nice clean look. Perhaps a bit more modern than the current look, but not cluttered or trying to emulate a full desktop application. Must be friendly for the visually impaired. Nine point medium-grey text on a light-grey background is evil. Must be usable via text-based browsers, like lynxs, links, w3m. Must degrade gracefully in the absence of Javascript. Preferably not need Javascript at all. At least some search functionality should be available. It shouldn't rely on Google, or any external search engine. (E.g. your archive may be private, or on a LAN where Google can't get to it.) Archive URLs must be stable even if posts are deleted. Access to the original posts should be possible. E.g. archives could provide a link which goes to the raw email of the original post, as a mbox file or even a text dump of the email (complete with all headers and attachments). Alternatively, "Send me this post" should forward the post to the user. (What are the security implementations of this? Can this be used to spam or DOS others?) As a third option, perhaps archives could have IMAP access? (Read-only for users, read/write for admin?) Viewing public archives shouldn't require cookies. It's okay to require them for admin access, or for private archives. "Infinite scroll" is evil and must not be used, ever. Yes, yes, I know that web developers have fallen in love with it. They're wrong. Should support OpenID. Are you aware of Hyperkitty? https://fedorahosted.org/hyperkitty/wiki/WikiStart -- Steve -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not top-post; do away with mailing list digests
On Fri, Apr 03, 2015 at 08:02:03AM -0700, Carl Zwanzig wrote: > On 4/3/2015 4:55 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > >On Thu, Apr 02, 2015 at 08:09:12PM -0700, David Benfell wrote: > >>The consensus on most technical lists I've seen is very strongly in > >>favor of bottom posting, > > >Perhaps you mean interleaved or inline posting, as I've done here? > > To the vast majority of people that use the terms at all, "bottom-posting" > and "in-line posting" are IME used interchangeably and for the same style. I would love to see your survey results that show that. I haven't done any surveys, but in my anecdotal experience, I can tell you that the regulars on a number of Python mailing lists are aware of the difference. I can probably even find a post from a beginner who admitted to deliberately adding his reply to the very end of the quoted text, without trimming, because he had been mislead by the term "bottom-posting". That's what he'd been told to do: post at the bottom, right? He was actually quite relieved to be told he was allowed to interleave question and answer. Apparently there is, or at least was in 2011, a plugin for Apple's Mail.app which enabled bottom-posting. The quoted email is inserted in its entirety above the user's response. The Wikipedia article on posting styles distinguishes between the three: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style although of course interleaved/bottom posting are indistinguishable when there is only a single point being replied to. In any case, regardless of whether it is an overwhelming majority who (mis)use the term "bottom-posting" for interleaved replies, or a vanishingly small minority, I believe that as we are (I hope) technically-minded people who consider precision in language important, making that distinction is important and I shall continue to do so. -- Steve -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not top-post; do away with mailing list digests
On Sat, Apr 04, 2015 at 11:26:34AM -0400, Tanstaafl wrote: > On 4/3/2015 7:55 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 02, 2015 at 08:09:12PM -0700, David Benfell wrote: > >> with top-posters subject to flaming. But > >> outside that world, I find top-posting to be the norm. I agree with > >> the logic of bottom-posting, because it is--well--logical, but cannot > >> hope to prevail. > > > Perhaps you mean interleaved or inline posting, as I've done here? > > As I said earlier, this is what 99.999% of all people who say > 'bottom-posting' mean, Did you know that 99.999% of all people who say "99.999% of all people" are just plucking that number out of thin air? > and to say otherwise is either just someone being > pedantic, foolish, ignorant, or (more often imnsho) it is an outright > trollish comment to make themselves feel better about being a lazy > top-poster. And which am I? You can pick more than one if you like. -- Steve -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface look like?
On Tue, Apr 07, 2015 at 10:02:32AM +1000, Andrew Stuart wrote: > Sounds like not working with JavaScript is something important to you. > What’s the thinking behind wanting to work without JavaScript? Isn’t > it kinda hard to navigate the modern web without JavaScript? Yes it is, but not as painful as using the modern web *with* Javascript. For complicated reasons that will take too long to describe, I've been running Opera (with no ad-blocking software at all) and Firefox (Ad-Block disabled) for the last six weeks, both with Javascript enabled. Call it an experiment, if you like, although that's not actually why I'm doing it. My conclusion: The modern web is a horror without Ad-Block disabling Javascript by default. Honestly, I don't know how non-technical people and those on IE manage. Perhaps they don't. Aside: I thought I had it bad until I started using Chrome, which for some reason ignores my web proxy. My proxy blocks a lot of ads at the server. With Chrome, I see the web as ordinary people see it. *shudders* It's not just the popup windows. It's not just the sites that hijack the right-click menu. It's not just the autoplay videos. It's not even the browser crashes! (Mostly Opera, Firefox seems a bit more stable.) Any one of them alone is enough to make Javascript-off-by-default essential, in my opinion. (Thank you Ad-Block!) But the worst is the mysterious Javascript scripts that run in the background, grinding my computer almost to a halt. What they do, I don't know. What tab they are associated with, there is no way to tell. All I know is that with Javascript on, my browser starts using 100% of the available CPU, my system's load goes through the roof, and using other applications slows down and becomes painful. I turn Javascript off, and the CPU usage drops to normal. I turn it back on, and everything is fine for a while, until I refresh some tab, or open a new one at the wrong site, and before I know it, I have a load of 8 or 10 again. Allegedly secure sandbox or not, I'm not happy when web sites *demand* that you run their untrusted and untrustworthy code in your computer before you can see the content. I get that using a complex and rich web application is going require some Javascript, but if you (generic you, not you personally) insist on me running untrusted code in order to view what is essentially static text and a few graphics, then you are simply being rude. When I go back to using Ad-Block (I'm counting the days...) I could always Allow Javascript for mailman admin pages on a case-by-case basis. But there is another reason for avoiding Javascript even so. With Javascript, I can only use a GUI web browser to use the admin pages. But without it, I can use text-only, no-Javascript browsers like lynx. That's really handy for administrating mailman installations behind a firewall, where the admin pages are not visible over the Internet, but only inside the LAN. I can ssh into the network, then use lynx or equivalent to browse to the local admin pages. Of course using a text browser is never quite as good a user experience as a nice graphical UI, but if the alternative is a six hour drive to a distant customer, then I'll use what I can get :-) -- Steve -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface look like?
On Tue, Apr 07, 2015 at 06:50:55AM -0400, Tanstaafl wrote: > On 4/6/2015 10:17 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > > It's not just the popup windows. It's not just the sites that hijack the > > right-click menu. It's not just the autoplay videos. It's not even the > > browser crashes! (Mostly Opera, Firefox seems a bit more stable.) Any > > one of them alone is enough to make Javascript-off-by-default essential, > > in my opinion. (Thank you Ad-Block!) > > Actually, it sounds like NoScript is more what you are looking for (I > use AdBlock too though)... YOu are absolutely right, and in fact NoScript is what I have been using. After six weeks of having it disabled though, I got the name mixed up. -- Steve -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface look like?
On Tue, Apr 07, 2015 at 08:31:04AM -0400, Jim Popovitch wrote: > On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 10:17 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > > > > I'm not happy when web sites *demand* that you run their untrusted and > > untrustworthy code in your computer before you can see the content. > > How do you currently see the HTML content before it is interpreted by > your computer? This is increasingly getting less and less on-topic, but to give a brief answer, HTML is a markup language, not a programming language. (I'm aware that technically HTML5 + CSS is Turing complete, but it's completely impractical as a programming language.) Web devs use Javascript because it allows them to run more or less arbitrary code, which is either impossible or impossibly difficult from HTML alone. While it is possible that buggy or malicious HTML alone might crash my browser, it is far easier and more likely to do so from Javascript. -- Steve -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface look like?
On Tue, Apr 07, 2015 at 08:40:19PM -0700, JB wrote: > Not kicking anyone's cat here but if the ADA applies to web sites then > NO WEB PAGE EVER should be allowed to utilize that HORRIBLE 'flat' > design strategy. Pages such as the new ESPN page are EXTREMELY > difficult to read and sue for people who have vision and reading > disabilities. I'm afraid I have no idea what you are talking about. What horrible flat design? Do you have an example? What's ESPN? -- Steve -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface look like?
On Thu, Apr 09, 2015 at 02:31:50AM +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> The only accessibility tool for the web that I'm familiar with is the
> ALT attribute for IMG and other non-text elements of HTML.
I'm not an expert, but as I understand it, you can get a long way
towards good accessibility by following standard UI guidelines and not
fighting the web frameworks. E.g. don't use colour *alone* as the only
distinguishing feature between elements. If you have the choice between
using open HTML that a screen reader can work with, or closed Flash that
screen readers cannot, then use HTML. Don't invent your own "fancy"
(i.e. sucky) UI that doesn't interoperate with (e.g.) the tab key
functionality that the browser already provides.
Accessibility for the handicapped ("differently abled") actually helps
us all, and for the most part shouldn't be too onerous.
--
Steve
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Re: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface look like?
On Wed, Apr 08, 2015 at 09:29:23AM -0400, Jim Popovitch wrote: > So, you do want to see the HTML content before it is interpreted by > your computer? :-) As HTML is not executable code, "interpreted" is a misleading word to use. But taking it in the loosest possible way, no, of course not. I have no desire to see raw HTML content, I want my browser to render it, I never said differently. > Look, your JS vs HTML argument is cloudy at best. :-) I'm sorry that neither I, nor the existence of Javascript malware, have not been able to convince you that there is a large difference between rendering a HTML document and executing code. I am happy for you to continue allowing Javascript to run in your browser, and you should be happy to allow me to disable it by default even if you think I'm being silly. All I asked for is that Mailman's web UI should degrade gracefully when Javascript is turned off. Is that so wrong? -- Steve -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
[Mailman-Users] Bounces being detected as spam/virus sending rate
Hi, I run a mailing list of about 1-2 thousand subscribers for announcements only. My ISP has started sending me automated messages claiming that there is a high spam/virus sending rate from my IP address. It took me a long time to get a straight answer from them, but eventually they told me that they are not triggering on me sending email, but on the number of bounces that come back. My setup is that outgoing mail goes through the ISP's mail server (that was their recommendation) but incoming mail comes directly to me. I send out an announcement, and a few days or a week later I get an automated message from the ISP suggesting I might be sending spam or a virus and pointing me to the usual generic Windows anti-virus solutions. All my computers here are Linux, so while it is not impossible that I have been infected and am now part of a spammer's botnet, I think it's unlikely. I receive unhandled bounce notifications (no more than a handful of those, which I then manually remove) and see notifications of addresses that are removed for excessive bouncing, again no more than a handful at a time. How can I see a list of members set to No Mail for bouncing? Can you suggest anything I can do to avoid triggering the ISP's system? (A hard question, I know, since we don't know precisely what triggers it in the first place.) -- Steve -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Bounces being detected as spam/virus sending rate
On Wed, Apr 22, 2015 at 08:23:38PM -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote: > On 04/22/2015 07:28 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > > > > > > I receive unhandled bounce notifications (no more than a handful of > > those, which I then manually remove) and see notifications of addresses > > that are removed for excessive bouncing, again no more than a handful at > > a time. How can I see a list of members set to No Mail for bouncing? > > > bin/list_members --nomail=bybounce LISTNAME Thanks Mark. According to that, there are currently 12 bouncing members. But when I run the more detail script below, I get 30 bouncing members. What's the difference between the two? (Oh, and for the record, there's only two Hotmail, and one each AOL and Yahoo, addresses in the 30.) > To see more detail get the script at > <http://www.msapiro.net/scripts/get_bounce_info.py>, copy it to > Mailman's bin/ directory and run > > bin/withlist -a -r get_bounce_info > > > > Can you suggest anything I can do to avoid triggering the ISP's system? > > (A hard question, I know, since we don't know precisely what triggers > > it in the first place.) Thanks for the feedback. I look forward to many frustrating conversations. I currently get Uncaught bounce notifications, and process them by hand as they come in. I also see unsubscribes. Is there a way I can be notified of *caught* bounce notifications? -- Steve -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] ISO speciific RegExp to filter/discard bot subscribe requests
On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 02:06:26AM -0700, Nelson Kelly wrote:
[...]
> Inserted the above recommended RegExp string into the ban_list, and
> within minutes subscribe request bot spam began showing up in the mod
> queue.
>
> All the new spams appear to be of a slightly different format from which
> I described in the OP.
>
> blahblah+blah-blah-blah-blah-12345...@gmail.com
> blah_12_34+blah-blah-blah-blah-12345...@hotmail.com
Try this regex instead:
^.*\+.*?\d{3,}@
The meaning of it is:
^ start of string
.* any number of characters
\+ a literal plus sign
.*? any number of characters (non-greedy)
\d{3,} at least three digits
@ a literal at sign
I'm not sure if the difference between "non-greedy" .*? and "greedy" .*
is important in this case.
Good luck!
--
Steve
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[Mailman-Users] Formatting problems with AOL subscribers
Hi, I run an announcement-only mailing list with mailman, and some of my subscribers are having problems with the formatting of the text. Specifically AOL users. What I'm sending is plain text with hard end-of-lines, and blank lines between paragraphs (rather like this email itself). The emails look as intended in my mail clients (Thunderbird and mutt), and in the web archive: http://www.pearwood.info/pipermail/wossname/2015/28.html but AOL users say that they get a single block of text with no paragraphs. I'm not sure if that means that it just lacks the blank lines between paragraphs, or if it means that the entire post is converted to a single paragraph. Has anyone else come across this? Do you know what is going on and is there anything I can do to fix it? Thanks, -- Steve -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Which user is harvesting sender emails?
On Thu, Aug 18, 2016 at 04:36:58PM -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote: > On 08/18/2016 04:48 AM, Richard Hipp wrote: > > > > It would be great if there were some way to send a message where the > >>From field of each recipient was slightly different, and different in > > a way that was traceable back to the list member. That would allow me > > to identify the leaker. > > > There are various things such as VERP and full personalization that add > recipient specific information to the envelope sender and headers such > as Sender:, Errors-To: and even To:, but these probably won't help. > > Altering the From: based on recipient can be done by modifying the code. > Say you have a message "From: Ann User " and you want > to change that to "From: Ann User " where xxx is a > unique code for each recipient. Isn't that risky? Not all mail servers understand +xxx addresses. (What's the official term for that?) I know of at least one domain that uses -xxx instead, because they found too many broken mail servers that claimed that + was not legal in an email address. The point is that if you mangle the address in this way, and people email ann+...@example.com, there's a good chance that it won't be delivered. I'd be more inclined to look at the IP address where the spam is coming from. Does it match one of your users? Then they are likely the culprit (or rather, more likely a bot on their machine is the culprit). -- Steve -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply-to options not working
On Mon, Jan 22, 2018 at 11:41:28AM -0800, Mark Sapiro wrote: > On 01/22/2018 11:20 AM, Grant Taylor via Mailman-Users wrote: > > > > So, I think Thunderbird's new default is going to cause messages to go > > back to the author, ignoring the Reply-To. > > That's correct. > > > I can see how this could be annoying as a message author who wants > > messages to be directed to the mailing list, particularly if I set the > > Reply-To to be the mailing list. *sigh* > > The T'bird developers view is that in these cases, you are offered a > "Reply List" button and therefore, if you use "Reply" instead of "Reply > List" you must want the reply to go somewhere other than the list. Its worse than that: what about people who intentionally set the Reply To header on *non-mailing list* emails? E.g. if I'm about to go on holiday, I might reply to a work email: "Please send replies to f...@example.com" (which, of course, business email users don't read or pay attention to) and set the Reply To to ensure that replies go to Fred. -- Steve -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Changing Characters
On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 10:09:46PM -0500, David Andrews wrote: > At 07:40 PM 6/26/2018, Mark Sapiro wrote: > >On 6/26/18 5:03 PM, Richard Damon wrote: > >> On 6/26/18 2:12 PM, David Andrews wrote: > >>> I am running Mailman 2.1.26, cPanel. I had a message that I forwarded > >>> to a list using Outlook 2010. It looked fine in Outlook, but when it > >>> went to list all ' apostrophes were changed to ? question mark. What > >>> causes this, and how can I prevent it. > >>> > >>> Dave > >> The lists language is set to use a National Code page, and Outlook > >> formatted the message to use a 'Smart Quote' that isn't part of that > >> Code Page. > > > > > >I'm not sure what's happening. Yes, Outlook represented the message in a > >character set (code page) which wasn't compatible with the list's > >language character set, probably us-ascii, but this should affect only > >plain format digests and archives where the message is represented in > >the list's character set. For individual messages sent to the list > >members and MIME format digest, there should be no transliteration. > > This wasn't in the digest, it was in a regular message. Look at the charset used by the email, the charset the mail client uses, and the actual characters in use. If there's a discrepency between any of them, weird things are displayed. Look at the email's Content-Type header, it should look something like this: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; (Actually email should use utf-8, ALWAYS, but hardly anything does.) Given that this has some sort of curly quotes, it ought to use UTF-8, not ASCII, but so many Windows applications fail to UTF-8 when they should it is heart-breaking. Second-best should be Windows-1252, sometimes called CP-1252. If it is labelled "iso-8859-1" that's wrong but common. If there's no charset declared at all, assume the encoding is actually Windows-1252 given that it has come from Outlook. Then look at your email client. (Which is...?) It ought to honour the Content-Type header, but some older email clients don't and just assume everything is ASCII or the machine's default code page, whatever that is. If there is a way to instruct your client to change encodings (there is often an "Encoding" menu, try setting it by hand and see if the invalid question marks change to ’ characters. (That's a U+2019 RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK.) Finally, try looking at the "Raw Contents" or "Full Email" or whatever your email client calls it -- you want to look at the raw content of the email, in full. Find the places where the mystery question marks are, and see what you can see. If you're lucky, it will be some sort of little square box with a four-digit hex code in it, like 0098 or . (But don't be surprised if it isn't visible at all.) -- Steve -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Now that Python 2 is dead
On Thu, Apr 11, 2019 at 03:25:50PM -0500, Dimitri Maziuk via Mailman-Users wrote: > The problem is reliance on third-party libraries coupled with absence of > usable package management system. It will "generally" run within the > same major interpreter version unless it imports a package that got > updated by some other python app on the system. That doesn't sound like the way Python works to me. If you're running MM2 under Python 2.7, and you also have Python 3.7 installed, the two Python interpreters don't share packages unless you're doing something unusual. So updating one version of the installed package shouldn't touch the other. That's been my experience, for what its worth. -- Steven -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
[Mailman-Users] Auto-discard emails
I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask my second question, if not apologies in advance. I run an announcement-only mailing list which has become the target of a lot of spam, so I've set unsubscribed emails to be immediately discarded. 99% of the discarded emails are spam, but unfortunately there is a very small number of ham emails that get sent to the list by non-members, which I need to be made aware of so I can contact them off-list. So I have turned on the option for discard messages to go to the list-admin (me), and I get sent the "Auto-discard notification" messages which includes enough information for me to tell at a glance whether I need to contect the sender. Great! This is the question which is definitely on-topic: am I doing it right, or is there a better way I haven't thought of? Now, the second part which may be off-topic... My mail server uses spamassassin, and nearly all of the auto-discard messages are flagged as spam and filtered into junk mailboxes which I consistently forget to check. Out of sight, out of mind. I've found a few ham messages from mailman in my spam folders, months after they were received. I tried to whitelist emails from the mailing list by editing /etc/mail/spamassassin/local.cf and I added the line: whitelist_from_rcvd mailman-bounces@mydomain server.mydomain where I have my actual domain in place of "mydomain". I expected that this would mean spam assassin would whitelist emails from mailman-bounces, and not check them, but it seems to still be doing so: the auto-discard messages still get spam header lines and a spam score. Am I doing something wrong? Thanks in advance. -- Steven -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Auto-discard emails
On Tue, Apr 30, 2019 at 08:41:59PM -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote: [...] > I think you have to use > > whitelist_from mailman-bounces@mydomain Thanks, that seems to do the trick. Even though it is called "whitelist" it doesn't actually whitelist the emails, they're still scanned by spam assassin, but they're given what looks like a score of -100 which works well enough for my purposes. Thanks for the help. -- Steven -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Why are mails not being sent to all users (mails seem to disappear)?
On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 07:22:38PM +0200, Till Dörges wrote: > I figured it out. And it was neither a Mailman nor a Postfix problem. > > systemd-journald simply enforced some rate limiting. After removing it > (setting > RateLimitBurst=0 in /etc/systemd/journald.conf), delivery for all mails can > be seen > in the logfiles. Are you saying that the emails actually were sent, but systemd dropped the log messages so you wrongly thought they weren't sent? Or that systemd prevented the emails from being sent in the first place, and didn't log the fact that it had done so? I'm not sure which of those is more horrific, so I'm hoping I've misunderstood something because I will soon be migrating my mailman to a system using systemd. -- Steven -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
[Mailman-Users] Re: lots of bounces after server move
Hi Jim, Not an expert here, but a thought comes to mind. When you moved to a new domain name, did you update your DMARC, DKIM, and SPF records? (Whichever you use, if any.) Maybe the recipients think the new server is not authorized to send on your behalf. On Mon, Jun 24, 2024 at 01:42:52PM -0800, Jim Dory wrote: > We kept the same IP address, but the hostname of the domain did change. I > just moved to a different server in the same hosting company. -- Steve -- Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/ Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/ https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/ Member address: arch...@mail-archive.com
