[Mailman-Users] Automatic subscription based on e-mail subject
Hi all: I have the following recurring problem with mailing lists all over the Internet: people do reply to my posts, by they do not address or copy me in their replies. They send their e-mails only to the mailing list. Or they reply to the previous reply, and forget to copy the original poster. So I do not get a copy of the relevant messages straight away. If need to manually fish their answers from the web interface. If there is one. And then composing e-mails is cumbersome. And the subject threading no longer works properly. This problem has annoyed me (and other people on the Internet) for a long time. I cannot subscribe to every mailing list I need to occasionally use. It's far too much. This e-mail is the perfect example of such a come-ask-and-go-again scenario. If I need to subscribe in order to post a question, I turn off mail delivery straight away. Getting a digest with all e-mails does not help either. Replying to a single e-mail in this mode is cumbersome too. Besides, I do not want to manually skip other messages which do not interest me. Other forum software has a nice feature for this scenario: If I post to a subject, I am automatically subscribed to that subject. I then get an e-mail for any new posts with the same subject. The "topic" feature in Mailman is different. Very few people use it. I need something based on the e-mail subject. Is there any way to achieve that with Mailman? Thanks in advance, rdiez -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Automatic subscription based on e-mail subject
> [...] I think you are talking here about a web forum, where you can "subscribe" to information posted to a certain thread. I never saw this in a real mailing list. I Cc: this reply to you to make sure you see it - but I wonοΏ½t do this for every message I write to any mailing list normally. > [...] This is a serious shortcoming in Mailman. I am surprised that such a basic human communication issue has not been properly addressed. See here what kind of effect that can have. From the message below, a long discussion follows on this subject: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-users/2018-July/294510.html I would like to specifically mention the following page, which accurate describes the problem: http://david.woodhou.se/reply-to-list.html All that would not be necessary if Mailman were smart enough. It already knows how to group e-mails by subject. It could make sure the participants are all kept in the loop. Regards, rdiez -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Automatic subscription based on e-mail subject
> [...] If you have no connection to them, but post to the list for your own benefit, that is called "spam". It is generally considered somewhere between rude and criminal. > [...] Your comments are surprisingly unfair for someone in a mailing list for mailing list software. Let's take me as an example. I do have a connection with you. I am a user of your software, on multiple mailing lists. And this particular mailing list is open for anybody. It's fine to drop by for a short while. I did not see anywhere any notice that only close affiliates are welcome. Heck, this mailing list is called "users", and not "developers" or "mailman clan only". I asked about a way around a perceived limitation, and in the face of the answer, I contributed with reasoning and examples (a couple of links) about a missing feature and why it is important. You may not like my view. You may have a strong idea about how mailing list administrators should use your software. But am I spamming? Is this discussion not welcome here then? Maybe you are implying that only people who read all posts for a few weeks and commit further resources to this project are entitled to voice their matters here. I find this a strange view on how to develop a community. It is rather off-putting. Other projects have benefited from a bug report or a small patch I sent to their mailing lists. I was never actually subscribed to any of those. If all this actually bugs you, maybe you can convince you community to make this mailing list private for proven contributors, and leave out those people who probably just want to benefit from your open-source project? Regards, rdiez -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Automatic subscription based on e-mail subject
> [...] I will ask you how much you are willing to talk to a person who basically interrupts, says they aren't really interested in the general conversation, so isn't really listening, but if you go out of your way to answer in a special way they will hear you. (Which is one way to describe what you are doing), I do not understand why you are misrepresenting my actions. This is the second time in this list, but I have noticed this pattern elsewhere. I am not interrupting anything. That is a silly thing to say in this context. A mailing list is not a conversation that can get interrupted. A mailing list revolves around "topics". That is why people sometimes ask to start a new thread if the subject changes. That is how you skip the things you are not interested in. You cannot follow everything. Most mailing lists labelled as "users" explicitly state that users are welcome to ask questions. I have participated in many such mailing lists, mostly for a short time, because I am using a lot of open-source software. I have not (really) subscribed to any of them. But I am listening, at least to my subjects. I am participating in this matter. It is unrealistic to expect general users to subscribe to every mailing list and read many messages before they ask the one important question for them today. It is unrealistic to hope that this will help grow a community. I am not asking for people to "go out of their way to answer in a special way". I am saying that Mailman should do it automatically. See below. If you think users like me, who do not subscribe and read everything, interrupt and do not really contribute with their messages, your best defence is to make this mailing list private. However, if this were my open-source project, I would rather not build such communication barriers. This includes dropping terms like "spam" or "a person who basically interrupts" around them. Of course there is the concept of 'Topic' in a mailing list. Mailman, the web interface, or whatever, does know how to group topics together. That is an obvious feature, because people tend to work/participate in threads. It is true that Mailman cannot achieve 100 % reliability, because it is based on e-mail. Nobody would expect that, not even in web-only forums (notification e-mails can also get lost). But Mailman should at least try its best. It has the e-mail subject and some extra headers to help. That would be enough in most scenarios, like it is usually enough for the web archives. Filtering short prefixes like "Re:" has never been a great problem. And threads participated by humans do not last forever. My guess is, it would mostly work. Maybe some huge mailing list, like the Linux Kernel, would have to disable such a feature because of CPU or disk load. But most mailing lists could cope with that. Incidentally, on huge mailing lists, where no-one can read everything, people are more aware that you should address and/or copy the original poster, or they will not get the message. It is silly to ask people to setup their own e-mail filters for each subject they are interested in, like others suggested here. Computers are there to help users, and not the other way around. Other communication platforms, like Google Groups and https://forum.freifunk.net/ , have both an e-mail and a web interface. I rarely use those web interfaces, and they still do a pretty good job at keeping you in the loop for the topics you have participated in. Unfortunately, I cannot contribute code to this project. It is not just lack of time (I have my own open-source projects), but I don't know Python yet. Regards, rdiez -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Automatic subscription based on e-mail subject
Except then you run into ethical issues and possible legal violations of emailing people who have not opted-n to receive the email. This is becoming tiresome... When you e-mail or subscribe to a mailing list, you are opting in to receive e-mail. If you participate in a topic/subject/thread, of course you expect to receive e-mails about those. That is what mailing lists are about. That should stand in court. Mailman has a long page with settings like digest mode, stop delivery (holiday mode), and many, many more. Other communication platforms like Google Group allow you to manage subscriptions per topic. How about some new settings like this: [ x ] Automatically follow topics/subjects/threads I have participated in. And a reset button for the unlikely emergency: ( Drop all automatic following for all threads ) [...] you have to create an account so you can post. This is mostly the case because of spam. I never said that I oppose the subscription step. But that should be some kind of authentication and opt in disclaimer. I am against that you must then read everything. Or nothing. Or manually create filters on your e-mail box. Or some other non-practical way that turn people off before coming by. And, as has been pointed out previously in this discussion, there is a difference between mailing lists and web forums or bulletin boards... There is no such difference. It is all in your head. There are communication platforms that have both interfaces, e-mail and web. You can configure and use your mailing lists / forums / whatever in many ways. You can state your own policies in your own mailing lists. People participating in mailing lists do work in threads. That is how humans operate. Other systems can do it. I understand that you do not want to implement it yourself in Mailman, but why oppose the idea? Regards, rdiez -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Automatic subscription based on e-mail subject
Perhaps I'm being a bit over dramatic, but it does, in my mind, describe what you seem to be doing, You come in and say that the list software isn't working the way you would prefer, but for this conversation, everyone else needs to change how they use the list so you can > [...] You are being a bit over dramatic indeed. I don't pretend that everyone else should change their ways. And I do look into the archives all the time. That is what I am trying to optimise away. I just wish Mailman (or whatever associated component) would help here, like other communication platforms already do. Like I said, I cannot subscribe to every list I need to ask a question or drop a bug report into. I just have not got enough time. I only go through the mailing list hoops if something is really serious, or if something really bugs me. Unsurprisingly, bureaucracy barriers do have a negative effect on communication after all. And I do care. I am trying to understand what the problem is. I am trying to convince you guys, because you write mailing list software. This communication activity also counts as "work". If I find the time, I will write it all up in my Wiki, so other people have a quick overview of what the problem is. I am not the only one annoyed by this. The expectation for a mailing list, is that someone with a question will come and hopefully first browse through the archives (perhaps with a > [...] I have done that. Why do you assume or imply that I had not? I just didn't find anything applicable. To just barge in and do it 'their own way' is just being impolite. > [...] Would you rather I didn't post then? But like I said, I do look at the archives later on. This is how I realised that you do have a message at the top dated "April 2024". By the way, that is a bit embarrassing for a mailing list for mailing list software. But manually looking at the archives is just unnecessarily time consuming for me. As far as your mailing list is concerned, you can certainly say that users should accommodate to the way you operate your mailing list. You can start by stating your usage policy here, next to "Mailman Users": http://list.org/contact.html But I still think it is a strange way to treat your users. You know, the people you write the software for. My claim is, that drives many people away. What you consider "unpolite" often comes across as "unforgiving", "unhelpful" or "out of touch with reality" on the other side. After all, you are trying to load unnecessary burden on the shoulders of those users willing to communicate. Not subscribing is in fact a quite common behaviour. For example, look for "not subscribed" here: https://sourceforge.net/p/smartmontools/mailman/smartmontools-support/thread/9e4d58a79814d365ac99c8181eeb3...@coraid.com/ https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2017/04/msg00012.html > [...] 'Mostly work' is often a problem. Computers need precise procedures, and people tend to expect that they do things right. No need to be so strict. We face communication problems everyday. Mobile phones fail. Letters get lost. Misunderstandings. Wrong addressee. Server down. The lot. But things are still improving. Surely Mailman and the like can do better! It's a bit like asking why the city bus can't come right when I need it, Surely the smartphone app that tells you when the bus comes (or maybe Google Maps) does not get it 100 % right either. But would you rather go back to reading paper timetables from the official source? Regards, rdiez -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
