[Mailman-Users] moderation queue and member list management weirdness

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Hoover Chan writes:

 > A moderated mailing list where I see items in the moderation queue
 > but nothing happens after I select the actions to be taken (defer,
 > approve, delete) and then execute.
 > 
 > For the same list, I can see the first page of the member list but
 > can't search for members.

The first thing to do is look in the Mailman logs, which are typically
in places like /var/log/mailman or /var/lib/mailman/logs.  Then look
in the webserver logs.  Because of the variety of webservers, those
are even harder to be sure where they'd be located, but on modern
systems with Apache they're normally in /var/log/apache2.

Pro tip: since these are apparently 100% replicable, open a couple of
shell windows, do tail -f on the relevant logs, and do the problem
operations.  Then you can watch them in real time.

Tell us what you see (give us exact log entries and error messages in
the web UI).  If you see nothing, tell us that, too.  Feel free to
replace your IPs, domain names, and list names with generic ones.  I
recommend IPs starting with "10." (those are not publicly visible),
domain names ending in "example.com" (specially registered for exactly
this purpose), and list names like "list-1".  If multiple IPs,
domains, or lists are involved, use different substitutes for each.
(For domains, at least example.net and example.org are also registered
for this kind of use.)

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[Mailman-Users] Re: moderation queue and member list management weirdness

[Mark Sapiro]

On 7/15/23 15:41, Hoover Chan wrote:


A moderated mailing list where I see items in the moderation queue but
nothing happens after I select the actions to be taken (defer,
approve, delete) and then execute.

For the same list, I can see the first page of the member list but
can't search for members.



You say nothing happens. What does this mean? Does the page refresh 
without any change? Do you get a login page? Or, does literally nothing 
happen?



What makes is odd is that I have a couple of other mailing lists on
the same server with similar configurations where all is working as
expected.


Typically this behavior results because something causes the POST data 
to be lost. However in most cases, all lists are affected. See the FAQs 
at https://wiki.list.org/x/4030602 and https://wiki.list.org/x/4030614.


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[Mailman-Users] Re: moderation queue and member list management weirdness

[Hoover Chan]

re: "nothing happens"

When the take action button is clicked, the page pauses as if waiting
and after about 30 seconds or so, I'm presented with the moderation
queue page again with none of the submitted actions having been done.

Thanks for any insights.

On Mon, Jul 17, 2023 at 9:14 AM Mark Sapiro  wrote:
>
> On 7/15/23 15:41, Hoover Chan wrote:
> >
> > A moderated mailing list where I see items in the moderation queue but
> > nothing happens after I select the actions to be taken (defer,
> > approve, delete) and then execute.
> >
> > For the same list, I can see the first page of the member list but
> > can't search for members.
>
>
> You say nothing happens. What does this mean? Does the page refresh
> without any change? Do you get a login page? Or, does literally nothing
> happen?
>
> > What makes is odd is that I have a couple of other mailing lists on
> > the same server with similar configurations where all is working as
> > expected.
>
> Typically this behavior results because something causes the POST data
> to be lost. However in most cases, all lists are affected. See the FAQs
> at https://wiki.list.org/x/4030602 and https://wiki.list.org/x/4030614.
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
>
> --
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[Mailman-Users] Re: moderation queue and member list management weirdness

[Mark Sapiro]

On 7/17/23 09:22, Hoover Chan wrote:

re: "nothing happens"

When the take action button is clicked, the page pauses as if waiting
and after about 30 seconds or so, I'm presented with the moderation
queue page again with none of the submitted actions having been done.

Thanks for any insights.



As Steve suggested, check your web server logs for everything related to 
this request during those 30 seconds. This seems a long time. Do the 
lists that work take that long to respond?


Also, as I said, see the FAQs at https://wiki.list.org/x/4030602 and 
https://wiki.list.org/x/4030614.


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[Mailman-Users] Re: moderation queue and member list management weirdness

[Hoover Chan]

This may or may not help others but I did a

 ./withlist -l -r fix_url listname

followed by restarting mailman and things started to work again.

Thanks for all the pointers.


Virus-free.www.avg.com

<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

On Mon, Jul 17, 2023 at 9:30 AM Mark Sapiro  wrote:
>
> On 7/17/23 09:22, Hoover Chan wrote:
> > re: "nothing happens"
> >
> > When the take action button is clicked, the page pauses as if waiting
> > and after about 30 seconds or so, I'm presented with the moderation
> > queue page again with none of the submitted actions having been done.
> >
> > Thanks for any insights.
>
>
> As Steve suggested, check your web server logs for everything related to
> this request during those 30 seconds. This seems a long time. Do the
> lists that work take that long to respond?
>
> Also, as I said, see the FAQs at https://wiki.list.org/x/4030602 and
> https://wiki.list.org/x/4030614.
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
>
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[Mailman-Users] Where's the installation directions / source, etc, please?

[Richard]

Hi All,

I used to use plain-ole mailman, WAY back in the '90s, BEFORE mailman2 and 
LONG before mailman3... And I sure wish mailman2 had been done by people 
who had a sense for the challenges for normal non-developer system 
managers to deal with the software they actually developed. I'm sure it's 
fine if you're already a Django programmer and use "containers" all the 
time, but I'm not a Django fanboy, don't ever care to be, and think the 
idea of containers is inappropriate technology for a hell of a lot of 
use-cases, especially a small, self-run, no-budget installation.


But maybe the worst is that the developers of that stuff can't be bothered 
to create a wrapper so you've got ONE consistent way to do things from the 
command line?! WTF?! What the he... OK, no reason to get into a rant. Ya 
know, I tried it, gave it a fair attempt, and given my experience, if I 
wrote what I think of it here, I might get banned!


So, I'm done with it and want to go back to the old stuff. I'll happily 
build from source, etc. But my simplistic web searches haven't returned 
results and I'm afraid I didn't keep great records about it back when 
since it was just a part of my Fedora package system!


So, any pointers for this long-in-the-tooth Fedora Sys Admin?

Thanks folks,
Richard

(from somewhere in San Franciso's east bay area...)
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[Mailman-Users] Oops, key typo! ... Re: Where's the installation directions / source, etc, please?

[Richard]

Hi,

sorry for this typo I made...

I implied my complaints are with MailMan 2, and I wasn't thrilled with some 
changes but it's MM3 that's the headache.


I'd be happy to go back to say, how it was in 2019 or something like that. 
What, v 2.1.28 or some such.


I just want to be able to have something I can actuall MANAGE from the command 
line without having to learn a friggen programming language. All I have to do 
is SIMPLE BASIC STUFF, like, you know, create lists, add people to them and so 
forth! And I'd like to avoid use of containers and other noise that I have 
absolutely NO use for (other than mailman).


Thanks,
Richard


On Mon, 17 Jul 2023, rich...@karmannghia.org wrote:


 Hi All,

 I used to use plain-ole mailman, WAY back in the '90s, BEFORE mailman2 and
 LONG before mailman3... And I sure wish mailman2 had been done by people who
 had a sense for the challenges for normal non-developer system managers to
 deal with the software they actually developed. I'm sure it's fine if you're
 already a Django programmer and use "containers" all the time, but I'm not a
 Django fanboy, don't ever care to be, and think the idea of containers is
 inappropriate technology for a hell of a lot of use-cases, especially a
 small, self-run, no-budget installation.

 But maybe the worst is that the developers of that stuff can't be bothered
 to create a wrapper so you've got ONE consistent way to do things from the
 command line?! WTF?! What the he... OK, no reason to get into a rant. Ya
 know, I tried it, gave it a fair attempt, and given my experience, if I
 wrote what I think of it here, I might get banned!

 So, I'm done with it and want to go back to the old stuff. I'll happily
 build from source, etc. But my simplistic web searches haven't returned
 results and I'm afraid I didn't keep great records about it back when since
 it was just a part of my Fedora package system!

 So, any pointers for this long-in-the-tooth Fedora Sys Admin?

 Thanks folks,
 Richard

 (from somewhere in San Franciso's east bay area...)

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[Mailman-Users] Re: moderation queue and member list management weirdness

[Mark Sapiro]

On 7/17/23 10:39, Hoover Chan wrote:

This may or may not help others but I did a

  ./withlist -l -r fix_url listname

followed by restarting mailman and things started to work again.



Thanks for the report.

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San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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[Mailman-Users] Re: Where's the installation directions / source, etc, please?

[Mark Sapiro]

On 7/17/23 10:54, rich...@karmannghia.org wrote:


I used to use plain-ole mailman, WAY back in the '90s, BEFORE mailman2 
and LONG before mailman3... And I sure wish mailman2 had been done by 
people who had a sense for the challenges for normal non-developer 
system managers to deal with the software they actually developed. I'm 
sure it's fine if you're already a Django programmer and use 
"containers" all the time, but I'm not a Django fanboy, don't ever care 
to be, and think the idea of containers is inappropriate technology for 
a hell of a lot of use-cases, especially a small, self-run, no-budget 
installation.



I think you are referring to Mailman 3, not Mailman 2.


So, I'm done with it and want to go back to the old stuff. I'll happily 
build from source, etc. But my simplistic web searches haven't returned 
results and I'm afraid I didn't keep great records about it back when 
since it was just a part of my Fedora package system!


So, any pointers for this long-in-the-tooth Fedora Sys Admin?


If you want to install Mailman 2.1 from source, see 
 
for various download locations. You can find the installation manual at 
.


You can also find tarballs for releases back to 1.0 at 
.


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[Mailman-Users] Re: Where's the installation directions / source, etc, please?

[Steven Jones]

Hi,

I feel the same way, hence still running Mailman2 (on RHEL8). It is simple and 
low CPU hit, however Red Hat stops it support in May 2024.

Containers are really useful where done well but I tried 2 or  times to get 
mailman3 going on RHEL9 with podman and even docker and failed.

I think Debian12 does mailman3? worth a go if so.  In my case I am not allowed 
to run an unsupported OS and app.

regards

Steven


From: Mark Sapiro 
Sent: Tuesday, 18 July 2023 6:57 am
To: mailman-users@python.org 
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Re: Where's the installation directions / source, etc, 
please?

On 7/17/23 10:54, rich...@karmannghia.org wrote:
>
> I used to use plain-ole mailman, WAY back in the '90s, BEFORE mailman2
> and LONG before mailman3... And I sure wish mailman2 had been done by
> people who had a sense for the challenges for normal non-developer
> system managers to deal with the software they actually developed. I'm
> sure it's fine if you're already a Django programmer and use
> "containers" all the time, but I'm not a Django fanboy, don't ever care
> to be, and think the idea of containers is inappropriate technology for
> a hell of a lot of use-cases, especially a small, self-run, no-budget
> installation.


I think you are referring to Mailman 3, not Mailman 2.


> So, I'm done with it and want to go back to the old stuff. I'll happily
> build from source, etc. But my simplistic web searches haven't returned
> results and I'm afraid I didn't keep great records about it back when
> since it was just a part of my Fedora package system!
>
> So, any pointers for this long-in-the-tooth Fedora Sys Admin?

If you want to install Mailman 2.1 from source, see
>
for various download locations. You can find the installation manual at
>.

You can also find tarballs for releases back to 1.0 at
>.

--
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San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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[Mailman-Users] Re: Where's the installation directions / source, etc, please?

[dmitri maziuk]

On 2023-07-17 4:36 PM, Steven Jones wrote:

Hi,

I feel the same way, hence still running Mailman2 (on RHEL8). It is simple and 
low CPU hit, however Red Hat stops it support in May 2024.

Containers are really useful where done well but I tried 2 or  times to get 
mailman3 going on RHEL9 with podman and even docker and failed.



IIRC the main problem with running mailman2 in a container is the 
aliases file that needs to execute mailman commands. I think it should 
probably work by replacing mailman commands in there with `docker exec ...`


I'm not running unix servers anymore and have nowhere to give that a try 
myself. I'm sure there be tentacles there that I am not thinking of.


Dima


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[Mailman-Users] Re: Oops, key typo! ... Re: Where's the installation directions / source, etc, please?

[Mark Sapiro]

On 7/17/23 11:27, rich...@karmannghia.org wrote:


I'd be happy to go back to say, how it was in 2019 or something like 
that. What, v 2.1.28 or some such.



And see my reply to your post at 



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[Mailman-Users] Re: Oops, key typo! ... Re: Where's the installation directions / source, etc, please?

[Richard]

On Mon, 17 Jul 2023, Mark Sapiro wrote:


And see my reply to your post at 



--
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan



Thank you, Sir. I hope you are well paid! It's easy to tell you are a 
godsend for those of us with mailman issues and who are less well informed 
on the matter! (I've been on this list for a LONG time! Seldom post, 
though I learn just from reading and sometimes searching through the old 
mail.)


Richard
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[Mailman-Users] Signature issue - was Re: Re: Where's the installation directions / source, etc, please?

[Richard]

I'm trying to install 2.1.39 now, but am having an issue with verifying 
the tarball.


I downloaded from: https://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/mailman/

...these files:

mailman-2.1.39.tgz
mailman-2.1.39.tgz.sig

When I execute the appropriate command:

$ gpg --verify mailman-2.1.39.tgz.sig mailman-2.1.39.tgz
gpg: Signature made Mon 13 Dec 2021 12:38:07 PM PST
gpg:using DSA key C638CAEF0AC21563736B5A22555B975E953B8693
gpg: Can't check signature: No public key


Advice?
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[Mailman-Users] Signature issue - was Re: Re: Where's the installation directions / source, etc, please? (fwd)

[richard]

NEVERMIND! I figured it out:

In this instance, it's:

gpg --recv-keys C638CAEF0AC21563736B5A22555B975E953B8693

Sorry to bother anybody! ;-)

Richard

---

I'm trying to install 2.1.39 now, but am having an issue with verifying the 
tarball.


I downloaded from: https://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/mailman/

...these files:

mailman-2.1.39.tgz
mailman-2.1.39.tgz.sig

When I execute the appropriate command:

$ gpg --verify mailman-2.1.39.tgz.sig mailman-2.1.39.tgz
gpg:  Signature made Mon 13 Dec 2021 12:38:07 PM PST
gpg: using DSA key C638CAEF0AC21563736B5A22555B975E953B8693
gpg:  Can't check signature: No public key


Advice?
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[Mailman-Users] Python 2.7.15, etc, vs Python3...

[Richard]

Inching forward here folks, trying to get Mailman 2.1.39 going.

I get to the point it calls Python and it dies with:

checking for python... /usr/local/bin/python
checking Python interpreter... configure: error:

* No Python interpreter found!
* Try including the configure option
* --with-python=/path/to/python/interpreter

I checked; there are only 245 different Python packages installed! 
-slap-forehead- What was I thinking! OF COURSE it requires more of 'em!


If I type python and then double-hit tab, I get:

python3
python3.11
python3.11-config
python3.11-x86_64-config
python3-config
python-argcomplete-check-easy-install-script
python-argcomplete-tcsh
python-config

...I tryed to install the corresponding package, which appears to be 
Python 2.7.15, it as a package but it couldn't be found by the 
usual package manager


OTOH, can Python3 (what's there now) be THAT backwards incompatible?!

SURELY I can make it happy somehow, right?

How about an ln -s of /usr/local/bin/python to the one in my path?

Do I have to install the old Python from source, TOO?!

Anybody know?

Thanks,
R

P.S. It seems BIZARRE to me that we have the good ole cc and gcc that just 
work after however many decades, yet the modern developers seem just not 
have a clue how - or just don't care - to code for longevity - what, the 
code to get python has to enter python3 now or just die? Really?


I'm sure you can easily tell I strongly disagree with modern practices 
about dependencies; "computer science" has gone backwards, at least in 
strategy! ... But I digress...


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[Mailman-Users] Re: Python 2.7.15, etc, vs Python3...

[Carl Zwanzig]

On 7/17/2023 5:24 PM, rich...@karmannghia.org wrote:

Inching forward here folks, trying to get Mailman 2.1.39 going.

[...]

OTOH, can Python3 (what's there now) be THAT backwards incompatible?!


Oh yes it can! In some ways, it's a completely different language (and for 
that reason, MM2 hasn't been "ported" to python3).


You'll find a fair amount of discussion about this in the list archive.

Later,

z!
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[Mailman-Users] Re: Python 2.7.15, etc, vs Python3...

[dmitri maziuk]

On 2023-07-17 7:24 PM, rich...@karmannghia.org wrote:

P.S. It seems BIZARRE to me that we have the good ole cc and gcc that 
just work after however many decades


Well... they have flags that I think maybe will still let them compile 
K&R C. C++, OTOH, is in many respects worse than python, and yes: python 
2 and 3 can be *that* incompatible. Boost library that C++ standards 
committee made part of modern "standard c++" is worse.


Abandon hope
Dima
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[Mailman-Users] Re: Signature issue - was Re: Re: Where's the installation directions / source, etc, please?

[Mark Sapiro]

On 7/17/23 16:22, rich...@karmannghia.org wrote:



I'm trying to install 2.1.39 now, but am having an issue with verifying 
the tarball.


I downloaded from: https://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/mailman/

...these files:

mailman-2.1.39.tgz
mailman-2.1.39.tgz.sig

When I execute the appropriate command:

$ gpg --verify mailman-2.1.39.tgz.sig mailman-2.1.39.tgz
gpg: Signature made Mon 13 Dec 2021 12:38:07 PM PST
gpg:    using DSA key C638CAEF0AC21563736B5A22555B975E953B8693
gpg: Can't check signature: No public key


Try

gpg --receive-keys 953B8693

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San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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[Mailman-Users] Re: Python 2.7.15, etc, vs Python3...

[Mark Sapiro]

On 7/17/23 17:24, rich...@karmannghia.org wrote:


Inching forward here folks, trying to get Mailman 2.1.39 going.

I get to the point it calls Python and it dies with:

checking for python... /usr/local/bin/python
checking Python interpreter... configure: error:

* No Python interpreter found!
* Try including the configure option
* --with-python=/path/to/python/interpreter



You need Python 2.7. As others have pointed out, Mailman 2.1 won't work 
with Python 3.


You can install Python 2.7.18 from source 
 or you can look 
for a repository that allows you to install it as a package for your OS.


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[Mailman-Users] Re: Python 2.7.15, etc, vs Python3...

[Grant Taylor via Mailman-Users]

On 7/17/23 7:24 PM, rich...@karmannghia.org wrote:

OTOH, can Python3 (what's there now) be THAT backwards incompatible?!


How incompatible are AM & FM radio?

How incompatible are IPv4 and IPv6?

How incompatible are gasoline and Diesel motors?


SURELY I can make it happy somehow, right?


As Carl Z. alluded to, you'll have to /port/ Mailman to Python 3. 
Though I suspect you will both make some people happy and other people 
mad at doing so.



How about an ln -s of /usr/local/bin/python to the one in my path?


I don't think that's going to work out nearly as well as you hope it will.


Do I have to install the old Python from source, TOO?!


Maybe if you can't find a version of Python 2.x for your distribution.

P.S. It seems BIZARRE to me that we have the good ole cc and gcc that 
just work after however many decades, yet the modern developers seem 
just not have a clue how - or just don't care - to code for longevity - 
what, the code to get python has to enter python3 now or just die? Really?


Python 2 and Python 3 are enough different to effectively be different 
languages.


I'm sure you can easily tell I strongly disagree with modern practices 
about dependencies; "computer science" has gone backwards, at least in 
strategy! ... But I digress...


I'm inclined to agree with you.  But that's just my opinion.



Grant. . . .
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[Mailman-Users] Re: Python 2.7.15, etc, vs Python3...

[Carl Zwanzig]

On 7/17/2023 5:54 PM, Grant Taylor via Mailman-Users wrote:
Python 2 and Python 3 are enough different to effectively be different 
languages.


BTW, there is a python2 to 3 converter, however -I- don't know how 
successful that would be and I've done multiple language conversions over 
time (basic->fortran, different dialects of fortran, perl->tcl, and a few 
others); there are always gotcha's that need hand editing to make them work 
or be sensible (and if an underlying library function is missing you'll have 
to get it from somewhere).


https://docs.python.org/3/library/2to3.html

If anyone feels like a "project", getting MM2 to run on python3 would be 
both a challenge and a service.


Later,

z!
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[Mailman-Users] Re: Python 2.7.15, etc, vs Python3...

[Robert Heller]

At Mon, 17 Jul 2023 17:24:15 -0700 (PDT) rich...@karmannghia.org wrote:

> 
> 
> Inching forward here folks, trying to get Mailman 2.1.39 going.
> 
> I get to the point it calls Python and it dies with:
> 
> checking for python... /usr/local/bin/python
> checking Python interpreter... configure: error:
> 
> * No Python interpreter found!
> * Try including the configure option
> * --with-python=/path/to/python/interpreter
> 
> I checked; there are only 245 different Python packages installed! 
> -slap-forehead- What was I thinking! OF COURSE it requires more of 'em!
> 
> If I type python and then double-hit tab, I get:
> 
> python3
> python3.11
> python3.11-config
> python3.11-x86_64-config
> python3-config
> python-argcomplete-check-easy-install-script
> python-argcomplete-tcsh
> python-config
> 

Mailman 2.x uses Python2, which is (long) EOL.  I don't think Mailman 2.x will 
work with Python3.

> ...I tryed to install the corresponding package, which appears to be 
> Python 2.7.15, it as a package but it couldn't be found by the 
> usual package manager
> 
> OTOH, can Python3 (what's there now) be THAT backwards incompatible?!
> 
> SURELY I can make it happy somehow, right?
> 
> How about an ln -s of /usr/local/bin/python to the one in my path?
> 
> Do I have to install the old Python from source, TOO?!
> 
> Anybody know?
> 
> Thanks,
> R
> 
> P.S. It seems BIZARRE to me that we have the good ole cc and gcc that just 
> work after however many decades, yet the modern developers seem just not 
> have a clue how - or just don't care - to code for longevity - what, the 
> code to get python has to enter python3 now or just die? Really?
> 
> I'm sure you can easily tell I strongly disagree with modern practices 
> about dependencies; "computer science" has gone backwards, at least in 
> strategy! ... But I digress...
> 
> --
> Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org
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> 
>   
>  
> 

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[Mailman-Users] Re: Python 2.7.15, etc, vs Python3...

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On Tue, 2023-07-18 at 02:05 +, Carl Zwanzig wrote:
> On 7/17/2023 5:54 PM, Grant Taylor via Mailman-Users wrote:
> > Python 2 and Python 3 are enough different to effectively be
> > different languages.
> 
> BTW, there is a python2 to 3 converter, 

There's also this project:

https://github.com/jaredmauch/mailman2-python3/


-Jim P.


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