date:20200917

On 9/16/2020 4:33 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> I have created a work in progress FAQ at
> . This contains an updated patch that
> applies cleanly to the head of the lp:mailman branch and also patches
> configure so the `autoconf` step is not required. It also contains a
> brief summary of steps to upgrade.
>
> If you try it, I'd appreciate feedback.
Hi Mark,

That worked perfectly. Thanks. This is the configure command I used:

*./configure --prefix=/usr/lib/mailman --with-username=mailman
--with-groupname=mailman --with-cgi-gid=apache --with-mail-gid=mailman
--with-pid-dir=/var/run/mailman/ --with-config-dir=/etc/mailman/
--with-lock-dir=/var/lock/mailman/ --with-queue-dir=/var/spool/mailman/
--with-log-dir=/var/log/mailman/ --with-var-prefix=/var/lib/mailman/*

Also, I don't know if it was necessary but I did run autoconf after. I
don't know if it actually did anything.


signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
--
Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/

[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

2020-09-17 Thread Stephen J. Turnbull

Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users writes:
 > On Thu, 2020-09-17 at 02:34 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

 > > You don't need to have a title, an @mailman email address, or a commit bit
 > > to do any of that.
 > > 
 > > You just do it.
 > 
 > Exactly!  But that is not really what this convo is all about.

No, that is *all* this conversation is about.  You need to persuade us
to give you what you want.  If you don't speak to our interests, you
won't get it.

 > You keep taking it into the "end user support" arena, I'm focused
 > on product preservation.

I care very little about product preservation for Mailman 2 (it's
complete subordinate to user service in the sense that it would be a
nice to have if there's zero risk to user support), and you need
*nothing* from us to do it, anyway.

Pragmatically, users are *all* I care about in the Mailman 2 world.
And I'm quite sure that's what the rest of GNU Mailman (the software
development project) thinks, too.  Note well: I am not their elected
representative, but I believe my statements are generally
representative of their beliefs about the user base and their values.
If you think otherwise, get in touch with them off list, since they
aren't posting that I'm full of nonsense on list (ie, maybe they're
just not listening here).

 > There are multiple roles, as you well know, why do you feel I need
 > to fit in the role you define for me?

You don't need to fit into any role in the Mailman project.  You have
the code, you have access to Launchpad or Github or Gitlab or
SourceForge, and you have and will have access to this mailing list.

But if you don't care about users, you're not part of the team.
You're a lone ranger.

 > Who's users?  ;-)

The Mailman Project's users, and in particular subscribers and admins
of Mailman 2 sites and lists.

 > I think, based on this thread, you are going to have a really tough
 > time ever retiring from Mailman.

>From "Mailman"?  Not even envisioned at present, except in the sense
that I'm old enough to be aware of my own impending death being closer
to me than my birth.

>From *Mailman 2*?  No problem at all.  This is not my first rodeo, my
friend.  You clearly do not understand what I've been saying about the
costs and benefits of user support and why GNU Mailman has chosen the
development and user support strategies we have.

I'm not saying you should agree.  Certainly not that you should
abandon your own interests.  But you seem to have a completely
unrealistic idea of how things work in open source and how you could
get at least some of what you want in this particular case.

 > > "Manage just the new features" sounds like a terrible deal for the
 > > vast majority of admins and subscribers, and a very bad look for GNU
 > > Mailman.

 > Let GNU Mailman, the FSF, and the Mailman community decide that and
 > don't prevent them from deciding that.

Have a clue, Jim.  Really.  Abhilash, Mark, I, and several others
*are* GNU Mailman -- there's nothing else it *could* be.  The FSF has
nothing to do with decisions about what code we distribute, that's not
what GNU is about.  The Mailman community is *not* going to be part of
the decision-making process, except that a small, unrepresentative
sample of individual community members post here, and GNU Mailman is
listening to them.  And in fact, there will not even be a decision in
some sense.  That is, we could lift the feature freeze at any future
date, and then we could reverse that decision afterward.

As for me preventing anything, I can't prevent anything -- if it's at
all a close call, Abhilash will decide -- and I am not trying to do
so.  I am *advocating* that

1. the current feature freeze is, on balance, *good* for the community
   as a whole even though there's a very vocal group (I take it on
   faith that you're not the only one ;-) that wants the freeze
   lifted, and

2. that lifting the freeze *as proposed on this list* is *not* in the
   interest of GNU Mailman or the community

and I am stating that

3. due to my own preferences and constraints, I will retire from
   Mailman 2 support if I don't get credible assurances that Mark and
   I will get substantial help with user support to offset the likely
   increase in needs, and to ensure that user support is maintained at
   high levels even as we reduce our commitments as currently planned.
--
Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/

[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

On Thu, 2020-09-17 at 18:47 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users writes:
>  > On Thu, 2020-09-17 at 02:34 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> 
>  > > You don't need to have a title, an @mailman email address, or a commit 
> bit
>  > > to do any of that.
>  > > 
>  > > You just do it.
>  > 
>  > Exactly!  But that is not really what this convo is all about.
> 
> No, that is *all* this conversation is about.  You need to persuade us
> to give you what you want.  If you don't speak to our interests, you
> won't get it.
> 
>  > You keep taking it into the "end user support" arena, I'm focused
>  > on product preservation.
> 
> I care very little about product preservation for Mailman 2 (it's
> complete subordinate to user service in the sense that it would be a
> nice to have if there's zero risk to user support), and you need
> *nothing* from us to do it, anyway.
> 
> Pragmatically, users are *all* I care about in the Mailman 2 world.
> And I'm quite sure that's what the rest of GNU Mailman (the software
> development project) thinks, too.  Note well: I am not their elected
> representative, but I believe my statements are generally
> representative of their beliefs about the user base and their values.
> If you think otherwise, get in touch with them off list, since they
> aren't posting that I'm full of nonsense on list (ie, maybe they're
> just not listening here).
> 
>  > There are multiple roles, as you well know, why do you feel I need
>  > to fit in the role you define for me?
> 
> You don't need to fit into any role in the Mailman project.  You have
> the code, you have access to Launchpad or Github or Gitlab or
> SourceForge, and you have and will have access to this mailing list.
> 
> But if you don't care about users, you're not part of the team.
> You're a lone ranger.
> 
>  > Who's users?  ;-)
> 
> The Mailman Project's users, and in particular subscribers and admins
> of Mailman 2 sites and lists.
> 
>  > I think, based on this thread, you are going to have a really tough
>  > time ever retiring from Mailman.
> 
> From "Mailman"?  Not even envisioned at present, except in the sense
> that I'm old enough to be aware of my own impending death being closer
> to me than my birth.
> 
> From *Mailman 2*?  No problem at all.  This is not my first rodeo, my
> friend.  You clearly do not understand what I've been saying about the
> costs and benefits of user support and why GNU Mailman has chosen the
> development and user support strategies we have.
> 
> I'm not saying you should agree.  Certainly not that you should
> abandon your own interests.  But you seem to have a completely
> unrealistic idea of how things work in open source and how you could
> get at least some of what you want in this particular case.
> 
>  > > "Manage just the new features" sounds like a terrible deal for the
>  > > vast majority of admins and subscribers, and a very bad look for GNU
>  > > Mailman.
> 
>  > Let GNU Mailman, the FSF, and the Mailman community decide that and
>  > don't prevent them from deciding that.
> 
> Have a clue, Jim.  Really.  Abhilash, Mark, I, and several others
> *are* GNU Mailman -- there's nothing else it *could* be.  The FSF has
> nothing to do with decisions about what code we distribute, that's not
> what GNU is about.  The Mailman community is *not* going to be part of
> the decision-making process, except that a small, unrepresentative
> sample of individual community members post here, and GNU Mailman is
> listening to them.  And in fact, there will not even be a decision in
> some sense.  That is, we could lift the feature freeze at any future
> date, and then we could reverse that decision afterward.
> 
> As for me preventing anything, I can't prevent anything -- if it's at
> all a close call, Abhilash will decide -- and I am not trying to do
> so.  I am *advocating* that
> 
> 1. the current feature freeze is, on balance, *good* for the community
>as a whole even though there's a very vocal group (I take it on
>faith that you're not the only one ;-) that wants the freeze
>lifted, and
> 
> 2. that lifting the freeze *as proposed on this list* is *not* in the
>interest of GNU Mailman or the community
> 
> and I am stating that
> 
> 3. due to my own preferences and constraints, I will retire from
>Mailman 2 support if I don't get credible assurances that Mark and
>I will get substantial help with user support to offset the likely
>increase in needs, and to ensure that user support is maintained at
>high levels even as we reduce our commitments as currently planned.
> 

Stephen, I"m just going to say that your input is always appreciated and
welcome, whether you continue to support mm2 or not.  Best wishes buddy.

-Jim P.

--
Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/m

[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

2020-09-17 Thread Stephen J. Turnbull

Cleaned up the @s.

Jonathan M writes:

 > What would be fun is a “Mailman 2 lookalike” Python 3 user
 > interface for Mailman 3, complete with Times New Roman and Courier.

The archiver part would be relatively easy to do; Pipermail is
probably fairly easy to disentangle from Mailman 2.  I can't speak to
how easy it would be to translate to Python 3.

Replacing Postorius with a Mailman 2 lookalike would probabaly be a
nearly complete rewrite.  Of course you can reuse the HTML and perhaps
the page-generating code, but all of the "business logic" needs to be
rewritten pretty much from scratch, as Mailman 2 has direct access to
list configurations, but in Mailman 3 you need to talk REST.

I'm not sure this would be easier to install, although the typical
installation / configuration problems might be more familiar to
Mailman 2 users.
--
Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/

[Mailman-Users] Re: Manual Update on Centos 7 (RH)

On 9/17/2020 4:47 AM, Dennis Putnam wrote:
> On 9/16/2020 4:33 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>> I have created a work in progress FAQ at
>> . This contains an updated patch that
>> applies cleanly to the head of the lp:mailman branch and also patches
>> configure so the `autoconf` step is not required. It also contains a
>> brief summary of steps to upgrade.
>>
>> If you try it, I'd appreciate feedback.
> Hi Mark,
>
> That worked perfectly. Thanks. This is the configure command I used:
>
> *./configure --prefix=/usr/lib/mailman --with-username=mailman
> --with-groupname=mailman --with-cgi-gid=apache --with-mail-gid=mailman
> --with-pid-dir=/var/run/mailman/ --with-config-dir=/etc/mailman/
> --with-lock-dir=/var/lock/mailman/
> --with-queue-dir=/var/spool/mailman/ --with-log-dir=/var/log/mailman/
> --with-var-prefix=/var/lib/mailman/*
>
> Also, I don't know if it was necessary but I did run autoconf after. I
> don't know if it actually did anything.
Hi Mark,

I didn't have it quite right. I got this postfix error:

Sep 17 07:30:46 harmonia postfix/local[22654]: A6FE22B14:
to=, relay=local, delay=0.15,
delays=0.09/0.04/0/0.02, dsn=5.3.0, status=bounced (Command died with
status 2: "/usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post rushtalk". Command output:
Group mismatch error.  Mailman expected the mail wrapper script to be
executed as group "mailman", but the system's mail server executed the
mail script as group "nobody".  Try tweaking the mail server to run the
script as group "mailman", or re-run configure,  providing the command
line option `--with-mail-gid=nobody'. )

I assumed, for lack of anything better, '*--with-mail-gid=mailman'*. 
Obviously I should have used '*--with-mail-gid=nobody*'. The
documentation was lacking on what that parameter should be. I suggest
you add this to your document.

signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
--
Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/

[Mailman-Users] Re: Manual Update on Centos 7 (RH)

On 9/17/20 1:47 AM, Dennis Putnam wrote:
> 
> That worked perfectly. Thanks. This is the configure command I used:
> 
> *./configure --prefix=/usr/lib/mailman --with-username=mailman
> --with-groupname=mailman --with-cgi-gid=apache --with-mail-gid=mailman
> --with-pid-dir=/var/run/mailman/ --with-config-dir=/etc/mailman/
> --with-lock-dir=/var/lock/mailman/ --with-queue-dir=/var/spool/mailman/
> --with-log-dir=/var/log/mailman/ --with-var-prefix=/var/lib/mailman/*
> 
> Also, I don't know if it was necessary but I did run autoconf after. I
> don't know if it actually did anything.


Thanks for the feedback. Running autoconf is not needed with the patch
in the FAQ article, as that patches configure as well as configure.in,
but it doesn't hurt as it won't actually change the patched configure.

I've made an additional update to  to
include the other configure options you used.

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
--
Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/

[Mailman-Users] Archive Issue

For some reason, messages are not being archived. I see no error in the
logs and check_perms says no problems found. Any suggestions on how to
get archive working? Thanks.



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
--
Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/

[Mailman-Users] Re: Manual Update on Centos 7 (RH)

On 9/17/20 6:44 AM, Dennis Putnam wrote:
> 
> I didn't have it quite right. I got this postfix error:
> ...

> I assumed, for lack of anything better, '*--with-mail-gid=mailman'*. 
> Obviously I should have used '*--with-mail-gid=nobody*'. The
> documentation was lacking on what that parameter should be. I suggest
> you add this to your document.


I've updated the FAQ. Thanks again.

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
--
Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/

[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

2020-09-17 Thread Matthew Pounsett

On Thu, 17 Sep 2020 at 07:22, Stephen J. Turnbull <
turnbull.stephen...@u.tsukuba.ac.jp> wrote:

>
> Replacing Postorius with a Mailman 2 lookalike would probabaly be a
> nearly complete rewrite.  Of course you can reuse the HTML and perhaps
> the page-generating code, but all of the "business logic" needs to be
> rewritten pretty much from scratch, as Mailman 2 has direct access to
> list configurations, but in Mailman 3 you need to talk REST.
>
> I'm not sure this would be easier to install, although the typical
> installation / configuration problems might be more familiar to
> Mailman 2 users.
>

If someone was going to undertake a rewrite of Postorius, using a different
web development framework (e.g. Flask, but pretty much anything that isn't
Django) would at least remove one major moving part from the install
process.
--
Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/

[Mailman-Users] Re: Manual Update on Centos 7 (RH)

On 9/17/2020 9:46 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 9/17/20 1:47 AM, Dennis Putnam wrote:
>> That worked perfectly. Thanks. This is the configure command I used:
>>
>> *./configure --prefix=/usr/lib/mailman --with-username=mailman
>> --with-groupname=mailman --with-cgi-gid=apache --with-mail-gid=mailman
>> --with-pid-dir=/var/run/mailman/ --with-config-dir=/etc/mailman/
>> --with-lock-dir=/var/lock/mailman/ --with-queue-dir=/var/spool/mailman/
>> --with-log-dir=/var/log/mailman/ --with-var-prefix=/var/lib/mailman/*
>>
>> Also, I don't know if it was necessary but I did run autoconf after. I
>> don't know if it actually did anything.
>
> Thanks for the feedback. Running autoconf is not needed with the patch
> in the FAQ article, as that patches configure as well as configure.in,
> but it doesn't hurt as it won't actually change the patched configure.
>
> I've made an additional update to  to
> include the other configure options you used.
>
>
Hi Mark,

Looks good to me. Thanks.



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
--
Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/

[Mailman-Users] Re: Archive Issue

On 9/17/20 6:49 AM, Dennis Putnam wrote:
> For some reason, messages are not being archived. I see no error in the
> logs and check_perms says no problems found. Any suggestions on how to
> get archive working? Thanks.


Is /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/.mbox/.mbox
being updated?

Are any logs being written? What are mode and user:group on
/var/log/mailman/?

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
--
Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/

[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

On 9/17/20 6:54 AM, Matthew Pounsett wrote:
> 
> If someone was going to undertake a rewrite of Postorius, using a different
> web development framework (e.g. Flask, but pretty much anything that isn't
> Django) would at least remove one major moving part from the install
> process.

I have said multiple times that Postorius and HyperKitty are just
examples and are part of Mailman 3 because we need something and that's
what we've got, and also that efforts to port Mailman 2.1 to Python 3 or
add new features to Mailman 2.1 would be better spent building a
lightweight (e.g. Flask based) web UI to manage Mailman 3 via its REST API.

This is exactly the motivation for the separation of the core engine
from the web UI in Mailman 3.

Brian has actually done this with Affinity and Empathy, but because of
his legitimate business interests, these are only available via his
hosting services.

I would welcome and support anyone who wants to develop a lightweight,
pythonic web UI for Mailman 3 list management and/or archiving and make
it available to the community.

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
--
Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/

[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

2020-09-17 Thread Matthew Pounsett

On Thu, 17 Sep 2020 at 10:14, Mark Sapiro  wrote:

> On 9/17/20 6:54 AM, Matthew Pounsett wrote:
> >
> > If someone was going to undertake a rewrite of Postorius, using a
> different
> > web development framework (e.g. Flask, but pretty much anything that
> isn't
> > Django) would at least remove one major moving part from the install
> > process.
>
> I have said multiple times that Postorius and HyperKitty are just
> examples and are part of Mailman 3 because we need something and that's
> what we've got, and also that efforts to port Mailman 2.1 to Python 3 or
> add new features to Mailman 2.1 would be better spent building a
> lightweight (e.g. Flask based) web UI to manage Mailman 3 via its REST API.
>

Yep.  Sorry, that wasn't meant to sound like criticism ... while it's never
appealed to me personally, obviously Django has its uses or people wouldn't
use it.   I was just responding to Stephen's comment about the
perceived complexity of setting up MM3.  Not having to install and
configure another application would be, objectively, simpler.

I already have too many full time jobs, so I'm not in a position to
volunteer to take on another. :)
--
Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/

[Mailman-Users] Re: Archive Issue

On 9/17/2020 9:59 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 9/17/20 6:49 AM, Dennis Putnam wrote:
>> For some reason, messages are not being archived. I see no error in the
>> logs and check_perms says no problems found. Any suggestions on how to
>> get archive working? Thanks.
>
> Is /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/.mbox/.mbox
> being updated?
No. Those files are owned by mailman:mailman.
>
> Are any logs being written? What are mode and user:group on
> /var/log/mailman/?
Yes, some logs are being written but most of the files are old and
empty. The files for today are the test emails I sent. The ownership of
log files varies:

-rw-rw-r--. 1 mailman mailman 0 Sep 13 19:13 bounce
-rw-rw-r--. 1 mailman mailman 0 Aug 16 03:43 bounce-20200823
-rw-rw-r--. 1 mailman mailman 0 Aug 23 03:40 bounce-20200830
-rw-rw-r--. 1 mailman mailman 0 Aug 30 03:13 bounce-20200906
-rw-rw-r--. 1 mailman mailman 0 Sep  6 03:33 bounce-20200913
-rw-rw. 1 mailman mailman   275 Sep 17 07:39 error
-rw-rw. 1 mailman mailman 0 Aug 16 03:43 error-20200823
-rw-rw. 1 mailman mailman 0 Aug 23 03:40 error-20200830
-rw-rw. 1 mailman mailman   692 Sep  5 07:15 error-20200906
-rw-rw. 1 mailman mailman 0 Sep  6 03:33 error-20200913
-rw-rw-r--. 1 apache  mailman   639 Sep  5 07:15 mischief
-rw-rw-r--. 1 mailman mailman   409 Sep 17 07:50 post
-rw-rw-r--. 1 mailman mailman 10939 Aug 22 23:23 post-20200823
-rw-rw-r--. 1 mailman mailman  2546 Aug 29 20:39 post-20200830
-rw-rw-r--. 1 mailman mailman  6108 Sep  5 10:29 post-20200906
-rw-rw-r--. 1 mailman mailman  5840 Sep 12 18:00 post-20200913
-rw-rw-r--. 1 mailman mailman  6048 Sep 17 07:40 qrunner
-rw-rw-r--. 1 mailman mailman   738 Aug 16 03:43 qrunner-20200823
-rw-rw-r--. 1 mailman mailman   738 Aug 23 03:40 qrunner-20200830
-rw-rw-r--. 1 mailman mailman   738 Aug 30 03:13 qrunner-20200906
-rw-rw-r--. 1 mailman mailman   738 Sep  6 03:33 qrunner-20200913
-rw-rw-r--. 1 mailman mailman   284 Sep 17 07:50 smtp
-rw-rw-r--. 1 mailman mailman  8875 Aug 22 23:23 smtp-20200823
-rw-rw-r--. 1 mailman mailman  1804 Aug 29 20:39 smtp-20200830
-rw-rw-r--. 1 mailman mailman  4854 Sep  5 10:29 smtp-20200906
-rw-rw-r--. 1 mailman mailman  4715 Sep 12 18:00 smtp-20200913
-rw-rw-r--. 1 mailman mailman 0 Sep 13 19:13 smtp-failure
-rw-rw-r--. 1 mailman mailman 0 Aug 16 03:43 smtp-failure-20200823
-rw-rw-r--. 1 mailman mailman 0 Aug 23 03:40 smtp-failure-20200830
-rw-rw-r--. 1 mailman mailman 0 Aug 30 03:13 smtp-failure-20200906
-rw-rw-r--. 1 mailman mailman 0 Sep  6 03:33 smtp-failure-20200913
-rw-rw-r--. 1 apache  mailman 0 Sep 13 19:13 subscribe
-rw-rw-r--. 1 apache  mailman 0 Aug 16 03:43 subscribe-20200823
-rw-rw-r--. 1 apache  mailman 0 Aug 23 03:40 subscribe-20200830
-rw-rw-r--. 1 apache  mailman 0 Aug 30 03:13 subscribe-20200906
-rw-rw-r--. 1 apache  mailman 0 Sep  6 03:33 subscribe-20200913
-rw-rw-r--. 1 mailman mailman 0 Sep 13 19:13 vette
-rw-rw-r--. 1 mailman mailman 0 Aug 16 03:43 vette-20200823
-rw-rw-r--. 1 mailman mailman 0 Aug 23 03:40 vette-20200830
-rw-rw-r--. 1 mailman mailman 0 Aug 30 03:13 vette-20200906
-rw-rw-r--. 1 mailman mailman 0 Sep  6 03:33 vette-20200913





signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
--
Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/

[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

On 9/17/20 7:20 AM, Matthew Pounsett wrote:
> 
> Yep.  Sorry, that wasn't meant to sound like criticism ...


And it wasn't taken as such. I'm only trying to reinforce the idea that
there are opportunities for making a different MM 3 web UI that would be
less complex to install, and working on that would be a valuable and
worthwhile effort.

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
--
Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/

[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x


On 9/17/20 9:54 AM, Matthew Pounsett wrote:

If someone was going to undertake a rewrite of Postorius, using a different
web development framework (e.g. Flask, but pretty much anything that isn't
Django) would at least remove one major moving part from the install
process.


We went with Laravel (PHP) when we replaced Postorius with our Affinity. 
It's not python but we didn't want to use a python framework.


FYI, here is a decent comparison of Django vs Flask:

https://hackr.io/blog/flask-vs-django

In the article, this was said:

"Django is suited for bigger projects that need a lot of functionality. 
For simpler projects, the features might be an overdose"


Do you think Mailman 3 would be considered a "bigger project" that needs 
a lot of functionality?


--
Brian Carpenter
Harmonylists.com
Emwd.com

--
Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/
   https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/

[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

On Thu, 2020-09-17 at 07:13 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 9/17/20 6:54 AM, Matthew Pounsett wrote:
> > If someone was going to undertake a rewrite of Postorius, using a different
> > web development framework (e.g. Flask, but pretty much anything that isn't
> > Django) would at least remove one major moving part from the install
> > process.
> 
> I have said multiple times that Postorius and HyperKitty are just
> examples and are part of Mailman 3 because we need something and that's
> what we've got, and also that efforts to port Mailman 2.1 to Python 3 or
> add new features to Mailman 2.1 would be better spent building a
> lightweight (e.g. Flask based) web UI to manage Mailman 3 via its REST API.

Would it though?  Is that conjecture or based on available data that can
be analyzed?  Here's my POV, if mm2 can (and it appears to me that it
can somewhat easily) be fixed to use py3 then all the installed bases of
mm2 don't have to learn/deal/secure/test/manage/deal with a REST API
and/or Flask, etc.  All those current mm2 admins get to continue life as
they normally do.  They save a weekend (or a month in some cases) and
some even save some $$, by not having to significantly change their
Mailman installation or server size, etc.  What I'm trying to do is
provide a painless (or, at least a less painful) path forward for all
those existing Mailman sites that don't want to deal with all the same
issues that are appearing over on the MM3-users list and in #mailman.

-Jim P.
--
Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/

[Mailman-Users] Re: Archive Issue

On 9/17/20 7:24 AM, Dennis Putnam wrote:
> On 9/17/2020 9:59 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>> On 9/17/20 6:49 AM, Dennis Putnam wrote:
>>> For some reason, messages are not being archived. I see no error in the
>>> logs and check_perms says no problems found. Any suggestions on how to
>>> get archive working? Thanks.
>>
>> Is /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/.mbox/.mbox
>> being updated?
> No. Those files are owned by mailman:mailman.


Is ArchRunner running? Are there entries in /var/spool/mailman/archive/?


>> Are any logs being written? What are mode and user:group on
>> /var/log/mailman/?
> Yes, some logs are being written but most of the files are old and
> empty. The files for today are the test emails I sent. The ownership of
> log files varies:
> 
> -rw-rw-r--. 1 mailman mailman 0 Sep 13 19:13 bounce
> -rw-rw-r--. 1 mailman mailman 0 Aug 16 03:43 bounce-20200823
> -rw-rw-r--. 1 mailman mailman 0 Aug 23 03:40 bounce-20200830
> -rw-rw-r--. 1 mailman mailman 0 Aug 30 03:13 bounce-20200906
> -rw-rw-r--. 1 mailman mailman 0 Sep  6 03:33 bounce-20200913
> -rw-rw. 1 mailman mailman   275 Sep 17 07:39 error
> -rw-rw. 1 mailman mailman 0 Aug 16 03:43 error-20200823
> -rw-rw. 1 mailman mailman 0 Aug 23 03:40 error-20200830
> -rw-rw. 1 mailman mailman   692 Sep  5 07:15 error-20200906
> -rw-rw. 1 mailman mailman 0 Sep  6 03:33 error-20200913
> -rw-rw-r--. 1 apache  mailman   639 Sep  5 07:15 mischief
> -rw-rw-r--. 1 mailman mailman   409 Sep 17 07:50 post
> -rw-rw-r--. 1 mailman mailman 10939 Aug 22 23:23 post-20200823
> -rw-rw-r--. 1 mailman mailman  2546 Aug 29 20:39 post-20200830
> -rw-rw-r--. 1 mailman mailman  6108 Sep  5 10:29 post-20200906
> -rw-rw-r--. 1 mailman mailman  5840 Sep 12 18:00 post-20200913
> -rw-rw-r--. 1 mailman mailman  6048 Sep 17 07:40 qrunner
> -rw-rw-r--. 1 mailman mailman   738 Aug 16 03:43 qrunner-20200823
> -rw-rw-r--. 1 mailman mailman   738 Aug 23 03:40 qrunner-20200830
> -rw-rw-r--. 1 mailman mailman   738 Aug 30 03:13 qrunner-20200906
> -rw-rw-r--. 1 mailman mailman   738 Sep  6 03:33 qrunner-20200913
> -rw-rw-r--. 1 mailman mailman   284 Sep 17 07:50 smtp
> -rw-rw-r--. 1 mailman mailman  8875 Aug 22 23:23 smtp-20200823
> -rw-rw-r--. 1 mailman mailman  1804 Aug 29 20:39 smtp-20200830
> -rw-rw-r--. 1 mailman mailman  4854 Sep  5 10:29 smtp-20200906
> -rw-rw-r--. 1 mailman mailman  4715 Sep 12 18:00 smtp-20200913
> -rw-rw-r--. 1 mailman mailman 0 Sep 13 19:13 smtp-failure
> -rw-rw-r--. 1 mailman mailman 0 Aug 16 03:43 smtp-failure-20200823
> -rw-rw-r--. 1 mailman mailman 0 Aug 23 03:40 smtp-failure-20200830
> -rw-rw-r--. 1 mailman mailman 0 Aug 30 03:13 smtp-failure-20200906
> -rw-rw-r--. 1 mailman mailman 0 Sep  6 03:33 smtp-failure-20200913
> -rw-rw-r--. 1 apache  mailman 0 Sep 13 19:13 subscribe
> -rw-rw-r--. 1 apache  mailman 0 Aug 16 03:43 subscribe-20200823
> -rw-rw-r--. 1 apache  mailman 0 Aug 23 03:40 subscribe-20200830
> -rw-rw-r--. 1 apache  mailman 0 Aug 30 03:13 subscribe-20200906
> -rw-rw-r--. 1 apache  mailman 0 Sep  6 03:33 subscribe-20200913
> -rw-rw-r--. 1 mailman mailman 0 Sep 13 19:13 vette
> -rw-rw-r--. 1 mailman mailman 0 Aug 16 03:43 vette-20200823
> -rw-rw-r--. 1 mailman mailman 0 Aug 23 03:40 vette-20200830
> -rw-rw-r--. 1 mailman mailman 0 Aug 30 03:13 vette-20200906
> -rw-rw-r--. 1 mailman mailman 0 Sep  6 03:33 vette-20200913


This looks OK. The ownership is irrelevant as long as the group is
'mailman' and /var/log/mailman/ itself is group mailman and SETGID.
(Those owned by apache were created by a web action.)

I'm assuming that the 'error' log has nothing relevant, but it is being
written so no archiving exceptions have been logged which makes me think
ArchRunner isn't running. What's in the 'qrunner' log?

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
--
Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/

[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

On 9/17/20 7:36 AM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
> Here's my POV, if mm2 can (and it appears to me that it
> can somewhat easily) be fixed to use py3 then all the installed bases of
> mm2 don't have to learn/deal/secure/test/manage/deal with a REST API
> and/or Flask, etc.


Or they can just continue to use Mailman 2.1 with Python 2.7, and no one
needs to do anything.


> What I'm trying to do is
> provide a painless (or, at least a less painful) path forward for all
> those existing Mailman sites that don't want to deal with all the same
> issues that are appearing over on the MM3-users list and in #mailman.


Forward to where?

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
--
Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/

[Mailman-Users] Re: Archive Issue

On 9/17/2020 10:43 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>
> Is ArchRunner running? Are there entries in /var/spool/mailman/archive/?
Looks like it:

● mailman.service - GNU Mailing List Manager
   Loaded: loaded (/usr/lib/systemd/system/mailman.service; disabled;
vendor preset: disabled)
   Active: active (running) since Thu 2020-09-17 07:39:59 MDT; 1h 10min ago
  Process: 28178 ExecStart=/usr/lib/mailman/bin/mailmanctl -s start
(code=exited, status=0/SUCCESS)
  Process: 28175 ExecStartPre=/bin/chmod 660 /var/log/mailman/error
(code=exited, status=0/SUCCESS)
  Process: 28172 ExecStartPre=/bin/chown mailman:mailman
/var/log/mailman/error (code=exited, status=0/SUCCESS)
  Process: 28169 ExecStartPre=/bin/touch /var/log/mailman/error
(code=exited, status=0/SUCCESS)
  Process: 28165 ExecStartPre=/usr/bin/install -m644 -o root -g root
/usr/lib/mailman/cron/crontab.in /etc/cron.d/mailman (code=exited,
status=0/SUCCESS)
  Process: 28162 ExecStartPre=/usr/lib/mailman/bin/mailman-update-cfg
(code=exited, status=0/SUCCESS)
 Main PID: 28180 (mailmanctl)
    Tasks: 9
   CGroup: /system.slice/mailman.service
   ├─28180 /bin/python /usr/lib/mailman/bin/mailmanctl -s start
   ├─28189 /bin/python /usr/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner
--runner=ArchRunner:0:1 -s
   ├─28190 /bin/python /usr/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner
--runner=BounceRunner:0:1 -s
   ├─28191 /bin/python /usr/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner
--runner=CommandRunner:0:1 -s
   ├─28192 /bin/python /usr/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner
--runner=IncomingRunner:0:1 -s
   ├─28193 /bin/python /usr/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner
--runner=NewsRunner:0:1 -s
   ├─28194 /bin/python /usr/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner
--runner=OutgoingRunner:0:1 -s
   ├─28195 /bin/python /usr/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner
--runner=VirginRunner:0:1 -s
   └─28196 /bin/python /usr/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner
--runner=RetryRunner:0:1 -s

Sep 17 07:39:59 harmonia.csd.net systemd[1]: Starting GNU Mailing List
Manager...
Sep 17 07:39:59 harmonia.csd.net mailmanctl[28178]: Starting Mailman's
master qrunner.
Sep 17 07:39:59 harmonia.csd.net systemd[1]: Started GNU Mailing List
Manager.

>
> This looks OK. The ownership is irrelevant as long as the group is
> 'mailman' and /var/log/mailman/ itself is group mailman and SETGID.
> (Those owned by apache were created by a web action.)
>
> I'm assuming that the 'error' log has nothing relevant, but it is being
> written so no archiving exceptions have been logged which makes me think
> ArchRunner isn't running. What's in the 'qrunner' log?
>
Error doesn't have anything recent. As for the qrunner log, I don't see
anything interesting (just my restart of MM):

Sep 17 07:39:41 2020 (21351) VirginRunner qrunner caught SIGTERM.  Stopping.
Sep 17 07:39:41 2020 (21351) VirginRunner qrunner exiting.
Sep 17 07:39:41 2020 (21350) OutgoingRunner qrunner caught SIGTERM. 
Stopping.
Sep 17 07:39:41 2020 (21349) NewsRunner qrunner caught SIGTERM.  Stopping.
Sep 17 07:39:41 2020 (21349) NewsRunner qrunner exiting.
Sep 17 07:39:41 2020 (21350) OutgoingRunner qrunner exiting.
Sep 17 07:39:41 2020 (21346) BounceRunner qrunner caught SIGTERM.  Stopping.
Sep 17 07:39:41 2020 (21346) BounceRunner qrunner exiting.
Sep 17 07:39:41 2020 (21348) IncomingRunner qrunner caught SIGTERM. 
Stopping.
Sep 17 07:39:41 2020 (21348) IncomingRunner qrunner exiting.
Sep 17 07:39:41 2020 (21345) ArchRunner qrunner caught SIGTERM.  Stopping.
Sep 17 07:39:41 2020 (21345) ArchRunner qrunner exiting.
Sep 17 07:39:41 2020 (21336) Master watcher caught SIGTERM.  Exiting.
Sep 17 07:39:41 2020 (21347) CommandRunner qrunner caught SIGTERM. 
Stopping.
Sep 17 07:39:41 2020 (21347) CommandRunner qrunner exiting.
Sep 17 07:39:41 2020 (21352) RetryRunner qrunner caught SIGTERM.  Stopping.
Sep 17 07:39:41 2020 (21352) RetryRunner qrunner exiting.
Sep 17 07:39:41 2020 (21336) Master qrunner detected subprocess exit
(pid: 21346, sig: None, sts: 15, class: BounceRunner, slice: 1/1)
Sep 17 07:39:41 2020 (21336) Master qrunner detected subprocess exit
(pid: 21351, sig: None, sts: 15, class: VirginRunner, slice: 1/1)
Sep 17 07:39:41 2020 (21336) Master watcher caught SIGTERM.  Exiting.
Sep 17 07:39:41 2020 (21336) Master qrunner detected subprocess exit
(pid: 21349, sig: 15, sts: None, class: NewsRunner, slice: 1/1)
Sep 17 07:39:41 2020 (21336) Master qrunner detected subprocess exit
(pid: 21350, sig: 15, sts: None, class: OutgoingRunner, slice: 1/1)
Sep 17 07:39:41 2020 (21336) Master qrunner detected subprocess exit
(pid: 21352, sig: 15, sts: None, class: RetryRunner, slice: 1/1)
Sep 17 07:39:41 2020 (21336) Master qrunner detected subprocess exit
(pid: 21347, sig: 15, sts: None, class: CommandRunner, slice: 1/1)
Sep 17 07:39:41 2020 (21336) Master qrunner detected subprocess exit
(pid: 21345, sig: 15, sts: None, class: ArchRunner, slice: 1/1)
Sep 17 07:39:41 2020 (21336) Master qrunner detected subprocess exit
(pid: 21348, sig: 15, sts: None, class: IncomingRunner, slice: 1/1)
Sep 17 07:40:00 2020 (28189) Arc

[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x


On 9/17/20 10:36 AM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:

Would it though?  Is that conjecture or based on available data that can
be analyzed?  Here's my POV, if mm2 can (and it appears to me that it
can somewhat easily) be fixed to use py3 then all the installed bases of
mm2 don't have to learn/deal/secure/test/manage/deal with a REST API
and/or Flask, etc.  All those current mm2 admins get to continue life as
they normally do.  They save a weekend (or a month in some cases) and
some even save some $$, by not having to significantly change their
Mailman installation or server size, etc.  What I'm trying to do is
provide a painless (or, at least a less painful) path forward for all
those existing Mailman sites that don't want to deal with all the same
issues that are appearing over on the MM3-users list and in #mailman.


I am seeing issues with MM2 on this list. Issues always exist with 
software applications so please stop using that as an argument against 
the adoption of Mailman 3. It's disingenuous.


Django is complex so moving away from it would reduce the complexity of 
a Mailman 3 installation procedure and maintenance. I manage dozens of 
mailman 2 and mailman 3 servers. When it comes to maintenance and 
support issues not much of a difference between the two. I will tell you 
this though, migrating a mm2 list to mm3 is easy and effective.


See, this discussion of changing interfaces for Mailman 3 itself 
demonstrates the flexibility of Mailman 3. A flexibility Mailman 2 will 
never see. The needs of list admins (and let's not forget list members) 
do change and they should as evolution of email discourse continues to 
change. Mailman 3 is in a better position to meet the needs of list 
admins (and let's not forget list members) far better than Mailman 2.


Personally having the ability to communicate with a list using email and 
a lightweight forum at the same time is a great thing. In fact, I think 
it is the future as list members will grow to like the flexibility. 
Let's not forget the way archives become instantly more useful with an 
include search feature in a Mailman 3 installation.


--
Brian Carpenter
Harmonylists.com
Emwd.com
--
Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/
   https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/

[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

On Thu, 2020-09-17 at 07:54 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 9/17/20 7:36 AM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
> > Here's my POV, if mm2 can (and it appears to me that it
> > can somewhat easily) be fixed to use py3 then all the installed bases of
> > mm2 don't have to learn/deal/secure/test/manage/deal with a REST API
> > and/or Flask, etc.
> 
> Or they can just continue to use Mailman 2.1 with Python 2.7, and no one
> needs to do anything.
> 
> 
> > What I'm trying to do is
> > provide a painless (or, at least a less painful) path forward for all
> > those existing Mailman sites that don't want to deal with all the same
> > issues that are appearing over on the MM3-users list and in #mailman.
> 
> Forward to where?

Oh the irony of you asking that question. :)  If we go back a year,
there were STARK warnings about the EOL of mm2.  Blatant EOL warnings. 
To me, a "path forward" is a way past that, a continued L(ife) with
something that people know, and something that meets their needs.

Flipping the coin around, make the actual written case, an "elevator
pitch" if you will, for some entity like NANOG or MAILOP to migrate to
mm3 this weekend.  Let's see what that looks like.

-Jim P.


--
Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/

[Mailman-Users] Re: Archive Issue

On 9/17/20 7:56 AM, Dennis Putnam wrote:
> On 9/17/2020 10:43 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>>
>> Is ArchRunner running? Are there entries in /var/spool/mailman/archive/?
> Looks like it:

What makes you think messages aren't being archived?

Is your archive public? If so, is
/var/lib/mailman/archives/public/ a symlink to
/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/, or is it an entire archive
structure. The latter can occur in some backup-restore scenarios and
results in a public (pipermail URL) archive that is never updated
because only/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/ is actually
updated.

/var/lib/mailman/archives/public/ must be a symlink to
/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/. If that's the issue, you
can fix it manually, or I think just setting Archiving Options ->
archive_private to private and then back to public in the web admin UI
will fix it.

Eailier I asked "Is
/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/.mbox/.mbox being
updated?" and you answered "No. Those files are owned by
mailman:mailman." which doesn't answer the question.

Are new messages being appended to the
/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/.mbox/.mbox files?

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
--
Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/

[Mailman-Users] Re: Archive Issue

On 9/17/2020 11:40 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>
> What makes you think messages aren't being archived?
Because when I look at it via the web, the emails I sent as a test are
not there. There is no September 2020 link and the date on the mbox file
is old (Feb 2020).
>
> Is your archive public? If so, is
> /var/lib/mailman/archives/public/ a symlink to
> /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/, or is it an entire archive
> structure. The latter can occur in some backup-restore scenarios and
> results in a public (pipermail URL) archive that is never updated
> because only/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/ is actually
> updated.
There are no sym links. Private looks like just place holders as there
is no data there nor any archives. It looks like everything is in
public. The ownership is root:mailman and the group has R/O permissions.
Only root has write. I'm assuming that is correct, otherwise check_perms
would fix it.
>
> /var/lib/mailman/archives/public/ must be a symlink to
> /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/. If that's the issue, you
> can fix it manually, or I think just setting Archiving Options ->
> archive_private to private and then back to public in the web admin UI
> will fix it.
Looks like it is backwards. This must be the problem but how it got this
way I have no clue. Since the real data is in public, doing either would
mess it up, right?
>
> Eailier I asked "Is
> /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/.mbox/.mbox being
> updated?" and you answered "No. Those files are owned by
> mailman:mailman." which doesn't answer the question.
The no applied to your question. I included the other information in
case it you asked.
>
> Are new messages being appended to the
> /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/.mbox/.mbox files?
No




signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
--
Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/

[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

On 9/17/20 8:04 AM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
> On Thu, 2020-09-17 at 07:54 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>>
>> Forward to where?
> 
> Oh the irony of you asking that question. :)  If we go back a year,
> there were STARK warnings about the EOL of mm2.  Blatant EOL warnings. 
> To me, a "path forward" is a way past that, a continued L(ife) with
> something that people know, and something that meets their needs.

The EOL notices were clarified to mean "no new features" I committed to
continue to fix critical bugs and security issues going forward.

If Mailman 2.1 meets their needs now, why won't it continue to do so as
it is? (Aside: I still sometimes use Adobe Reader 9 for Linux on my
desktop even though it has been unsupported and unavailable from Adobe
for years.)

> Flipping the coin around, make the actual written case, an "elevator
> pitch" if you will, for some entity like NANOG or MAILOP to migrate to
> mm3 this weekend.  Let's see what that looks like.

I'm not sure what the point of this is. According to
, MAILOP is already on Mailman 3.

It appears NANOG has only 3 public Mailman 2.1 lists and only one has
archives pre-dating MM 2.1 which could require attention before
importing to HyperKitty. So list migration via `mailman import21` and
`django-admin hyperkitty_import` should be straightforward.

I guess you are saying that step 1, "First install Mailman 3" would be
the sticking point, but this is the same whether you are NANOG or
mail.python.org or tiny site with one list, and it has been accomplished
multiple times by multiple people. I've documented my experience at
. Brian's take is at
.

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
--
Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/

[Mailman-Users] Re: Archive Issue

On 9/17/20 9:06 AM, Dennis Putnam wrote:

> There are no sym links. Private looks like just place holders as there
> is no data there nor any archives. It looks like everything is in
> public. The ownership is root:mailman and the group has R/O permissions.
> Only root has write. I'm assuming that is correct, otherwise check_perms
> would fix it.

Before doing anything, show me the results of

ls -la /var/lib/mailman/archives/public/

and

ls -la /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/

First you need to do something like

rsync -a /var/lib/mailman/archives/public/
/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/

to copy the entire structure from /var/lib/mailman/archives/public/ to
/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/.

Alternatively, assuming your
/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/.mbox/.mbox files
are good and contain all the messages except recent tests, you could
just do something like
```
for list in `bin/list_lists --bare`; do
bin/arch --wipe $list
done

to rebuild the archives from the .mbox files, but if any of the .mbox
files go back before Mailman 2.1, they should first be checked with
bin/cleanarch for unescaped 'From ' lines in message bodies and fixed first.

>> Are new messages being appended to the
>> /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/.mbox/.mbox files?
> No


This part I don't understand. What does

ls -la /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/*.mbox

show?

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
--
Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/

[Mailman-Users] Re: Archive Issue

On 9/17/2020 12:29 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 9/17/20 9:06 AM, Dennis Putnam wrote:
>
> Before doing anything, show me the results of
> ls -la /var/lib/mailman/archives/public/
# ls -la /var/lib/mailman/archives/public/
total 44
drwxrwsr-x.   4 root mailman    37 Jul 31  2019 .
drwxrwsr-x.   4 root mailman    35 Jul 31  2019 ..
drwxrwsr-x.   2 root mailman    24 Feb 16  2020 mailman
drwxrwsr-x. 302 root mailman 28672 Feb 16  2020 rushtalk
>
> and
>
> ls -la /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/
# ls -la /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/
total 44
drwxrws---.   6 apache  mailman    78 Jul 31  2019 .
drwxrwsr-x.   4 root    mailman    35 Jul 31  2019 ..
drwxrwsr-x.   2 mailman mailman    24 Feb 16  2020 mailman
drwxrwsr-x.   2 mailman mailman 6 Feb 16  2020 mailman.mbox
drwxrwsr-x. 309 mailman mailman 28672 Sep  1 09:38 rushtalk
drwxrwsr-x.   2 mailman mailman    27 Feb 16  2020 rushtalk.mbox
>
> First you need to do something like
>
> rsync -a /var/lib/mailman/archives/public/
> /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/
>
> to copy the entire structure from /var/lib/mailman/archives/public/ to
> /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/.
>
> Alternatively, assuming your
> /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/.mbox/.mbox files
> are good and contain all the messages except recent tests, you could
> just do something like
> ```
> for list in `bin/list_lists --bare`; do
> bin/arch --wipe $list
> done
>
> to rebuild the archives from the .mbox files, but if any of the .mbox
> files go back before Mailman 2.1, they should first be checked with
> bin/cleanarch for unescaped 'From ' lines in message bodies and fixed first.
>
> This part I don't understand. What does
>
> ls -la /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/*.mbox
>
> show?
# ls -la /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/*.mbox
/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/mailman.mbox:
total 0
drwxrwsr-x. 2 mailman mailman  6 Feb 16  2020 .
drwxrws---. 6 apache  mailman 78 Jul 31  2019 ..

/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/rushtalk.mbox:
total 1093228
drwxrwsr-x. 2 mailman mailman 27 Feb 16  2020 .
drwxrws---. 6 apache  mailman 78 Jul 31  2019 ..
-rw-rw-r--. 1 mailman mailman 1119459801 Sep 17 09:38 rushtalk.mbox

That is weird. That mbox seems to be updating but nothing shows up on
the archives web page after Feb 2020.



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
--
Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/

[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x


On 9/17/2020 9:24 AM, Brian Carpenter wrote:


FYI, here is a decent comparison of Django vs Flask:

https://hackr.io/blog/flask-vs-django

In the article, this was said:

"Django is suited for bigger projects that need a lot of functionality. 
For simpler projects, the features might be an overdose"


Meh. The real deal is Django is the kind of framework that makes you 
program for the framework. Flask gives you everything you need and does 
not force you to touch anything you don't -- not that there is a lot of 
the latter in it.


Django is suited for the projects where the goal is write an application 
in django ecosystem. For everything else, it is not.


Dima
--
Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/
   https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/

[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

2020-09-17 Thread Phil Stracchino

On 2020-09-17 12:07, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> If Mailman 2.1 meets their needs now, why won't it continue to do so as
> it is? (Aside: I still sometimes use Adobe Reader 9 for Linux on my
> desktop even though it has been unsupported and unavailable from Adobe
> for years.)

Weighing in on this question alone, Mailman 2 does everything that I
actually need a mail list manager to do for me, and everything I
anticipate needing it to do in the future.

... Except for the part where it requires me to keep Python 2 installed
beyond its second, extended, we absolutely mean it this time, no more
extensions, declared EOL.

It's not that I need anything Mailman 2 doesn't do.  (Except run on
Python 3.)  It's that I need Python 2 to be gone, dead and buried with a
fork stuck in it.  I'm just waiting for Gentoo's Mailman 3 ebuild to be
flagged stable.

-- 
  Phil Stracchino
  Babylon Communications
  ph...@caerllewys.net
  p...@co.ordinate.org
  Landline: +1.603.293.8485
  Mobile:   +1.603.998.6958
--
Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/

[Mailman-Users] Re: Archive Issue

On 9/17/20 9:39 AM, Dennis Putnam wrote:
> On 9/17/2020 12:29 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>> On 9/17/20 9:06 AM, Dennis Putnam wrote:
>>
>> Before doing anything, show me the results of
>> ls -la /var/lib/mailman/archives/public/
> # ls -la /var/lib/mailman/archives/public/
> total 44
> drwxrwsr-x.   4 root mailman    37 Jul 31  2019 .
> drwxrwsr-x.   4 root mailman    35 Jul 31  2019 ..
> drwxrwsr-x.   2 root mailman    24 Feb 16  2020 mailman
> drwxrwsr-x. 302 root mailman 28672 Feb 16  2020 rushtalk
>>
>> and
>>
>> ls -la /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/
> # ls -la /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/
> total 44
> drwxrws---.   6 apache  mailman    78 Jul 31  2019 .
> drwxrwsr-x.   4 root    mailman    35 Jul 31  2019 ..
> drwxrwsr-x.   2 mailman mailman    24 Feb 16  2020 mailman
> drwxrwsr-x.   2 mailman mailman 6 Feb 16  2020 mailman.mbox
> drwxrwsr-x. 309 mailman mailman 28672 Sep  1 09:38 rushtalk
> drwxrwsr-x.   2 mailman mailman    27 Feb 16  2020 rushtalk.mbox

OK. First make a backup of /var/lib/mailman/archives/public/ just in
case, although it appears that
/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/rushtalk is more up to date. Then go
to the web admin UI for both the mailman and rushtalk lists and set
Archiving Options -> archive_private to private and then set it back to
public.

That should fix it.

The story is all updates are done in /var/lib/mailman/archives/private,
and /var/lib/mailman/archives/public should contain only symlinks to
/var/lib/mailman/archives/private. Since
/var/lib/mailman/archives/public contains archives rather than symlinks,
those archives are static as of whatever created them and are never updated.

Note that if you go to the private archive URL at
http://example.com/mailman/private/rushtalk or wherever it it, you
should see your recent messages.

I'll be out for a few hours, so if you need more, it'll have to wait.

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
--
Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/

[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

On Thu, 2020-09-17 at 09:07 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 9/17/20 8:04 AM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
> > On Thu, 2020-09-17 at 07:54 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> > > Forward to where?
> > 
> > Oh the irony of you asking that question. :)  If we go back a year,
> > there were STARK warnings about the EOL of mm2.  Blatant EOL warnings. 
> > To me, a "path forward" is a way past that, a continued L(ife) with
> > something that people know, and something that meets their needs.
> 
> The EOL notices were clarified to mean "no new features" I committed to
> continue to fix critical bugs and security issues going forward.

I can't say this enough, Thank you for clarifying that issue because it
does mean a lot to a lot of people when it comes from you.

> If Mailman 2.1 meets their needs now, why won't it continue to do so as
> it is? (Aside: I still sometimes use Adobe Reader 9 for Linux on my
> desktop even though it has been unsupported and unavailable from Adobe
> for years.)

That's kind of my point. mm2 works for me and my use, I'd much rather
prefer to keep it working than to rip it out and replace it, including
installed and maintaining a database, a framework, a new setup of custom
admin scripts unique to my setup, etc.  No one has sold me on mm3 yet.

> 
> > Flipping the coin around, make the actual written case, an "elevator
> > pitch" if you will, for some entity like NANOG or MAILOP to migrate to
> > mm3 this weekend.  Let's see what that looks like.
> 
> I'm not sure what the point of this is. According to
> ;, MAILOP is already on Mailman 3.

They are not, (i'd guess most likely due to overly optimistic views on
how easy a migration to mm3 would be, perhaps they needed a bigger
server or had to hire a database guy, who really knows).  What i do know
is that, from a post yesterday, they are still using an old Mailman
version: 

Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2020 08:37:43 -0500
Subject: Re: [mailop] Spam using bit.ly link shorteners,
this time via Outlook
X-BeenThere: mai...@mailop.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: For mail operators 

I'd email Simon to ask why the discrepancy, but he's already alluded to
it a few times on their list.  Note: he originally planned to started
moving mailop.org to mm3 last December, so he's had plenty of time.

> It appears NANOG has only 3 public Mailman 2.1 lists and only one has
> archives pre-dating MM 2.1 which could require attention before
> importing to HyperKitty. So list migration via `mailman import21` and
> `django-admin hyperkitty_import` should be straightforward.
> 
> I guess you are saying that step 1, "First install Mailman 3" would be
> the sticking point, but this is the same whether you are NANOG or
> mail.python.org or tiny site with one list, and it has been accomplished
> multiple times by multiple people. I've documented my experience at
> ;. Brian's take is at
> ;.
> 

I've read both of those links in the past, and honestly that is good
detail to have.  What I was looking for in an "elevator pitch" is a 30
second statement on what benefit someone would have by moving to mm3. 
Given the time and effort (big or small) why should anyone move to mm3
if their mm2 installation still works and functions fine?  There are
people here saying "move to mm3 now!!, etc.", but what's the selling
point? 

-Jim P.

--
Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/

[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

2020-09-17 Thread Christian F Buser via Mailman-Users

Hello Phil Stracchino. On Thu, 17 Sep 2020 12:37:08 -0400, you wrote:

> .. Except for the part where it requires me to keep Python 2 installed
> beyond its second, extended, we absolutely mean it this time, no more
> extensions, declared EOL.
> 
> It's not that I need anything Mailman 2 doesn't do.  (Except run on
> Python 3.)  It's that I need Python 2 to be gone, dead and buried with a
> fork stuck in it.  I'm just waiting for Gentoo's Mailman 3 ebuild to be
> flagged stable.

I am in no way a programmer - but as I understand it, Python 2 can live 
alongside Python 3 without any problems. 

The EOL declaration for Python 2 does NOT mean that Python 2 will stop working 
on the date the publishers announced. There will just be no improvements. And 
as long as there are no obvious security holes in Python 2, it is absolutely 
not necessary to retire it on any machine. 

I am administering some mailing lists which run on MM2 / cPanel, and they work. 
I have no access to that machine other than via cPanel, and it is in most cases 
sufficient. The question of Python 2 yes or no is up to the provider. 

If you absolutely want to get rid of Python 2, either use Mailman 3, or another 
mailing list manager. 

There are some other mailing list managers available - some for free, some for 
money. I can propose 2 of them here, you mey find others which may work for 
you. I am also operating some mailing lists privately, they don’t use Mailman. 
They use CommuniGate Pro in the "community edition" (free version with limited 
number of mail and other users, but unlimited number of mailing lists and 
mailing list subscribers). This runs on an older Mac mini in my basement - 
CGPro is also available for Windows, Linux, etc. - 

And there is Sympa, a mailing list manager created by people from French 
universities, see  and 

Christian 

-- 
Christian F. Buser, Hohle Gasse 6, CH-5507 Mellingen (Switzerland)  
Hilfe fuer Strassenkinder in Ghana: http://www.chance-for-children.org
--
Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/

[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x


On 9/17/20 1:45 PM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:

That's kind of my point. mm2 works for me and my use, I'd much rather
prefer to keep it working than to rip it out and replace it, including
installed and maintaining a database, a framework, a new setup of custom
admin scripts unique to my setup, etc.  No one has sold me on mm3 yet.


It's because you don't want to be sold. But I will say this, what you 
want as a list owner, and what your list members want are two different 
things. They may line up and they may not. But I suspect many list 
owners are watching their mm2 lists shrink either in membership size or 
posting activity. Communication behavior changes. Social media has had a 
tremendous impact on how communications work on the web. Integrations 
are very important to a lot of groups. None of these things are possible 
with Mailman 2. Mailman 2 is inflexible as your position to not be 
swayed to use Mailman 3.


Also your above comments show your unjustified bias against Mailman 3: 
"you have to do so many things to use Mailman 3". No you don't. I think 
the real culprit is your custom admin scripts that you are using to make 
up for whatever shortcomings you found with MM2.  You don't want to go 
through the task of getting them to work with Mailman 3. Perhaps you 
can't. So at least that is a valid point for wanting to stick with MM2. 
However that is not the fault of Mailman 3.



I'm not sure what the point of this is. According to
;, MAILOP is already on Mailman 3.

They are not, (i'd guess most likely due to overly optimistic views on
how easy a migration to mm3 would be, perhaps they needed a bigger
server or had to hire a database guy, who really knows).  What i do know
is that, from a post yesterday, they are still using an old Mailman
version:

Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2020 08:37:43 -0500
Subject: Re: [mailop] Spam using bit.ly link shorteners,
 this time via Outlook
X-BeenThere:mai...@mailop.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: For mail operators 


I'd email Simon to ask why the discrepancy, but he's already alluded to
it a few times on their list.  Note: he originally planned to started
moving mailop.org to mm3 last December, so he's had plenty of time.


Please let Simon know I can install Mailman 3 and migrate his list to 
Mailman 3 within a day.





It appears NANOG has only 3 public Mailman 2.1 lists and only one has
archives pre-dating MM 2.1 which could require attention before
importing to HyperKitty. So list migration via `mailman import21` and
`django-admin hyperkitty_import` should be straightforward.

I guess you are saying that step 1, "First install Mailman 3" would be
the sticking point, but this is the same whether you are NANOG or
mail.python.org or tiny site with one list, and it has been accomplished
multiple times by multiple people. I've documented my experience at
;. Brian's take is at
;.


I've read both of those links in the past, and honestly that is good
detail to have.  What I was looking for in an "elevator pitch" is a 30
second statement on what benefit someone would have by moving to mm3.
Given the time and effort (big or small) why should anyone move to mm3
if their mm2 installation still works and functions fine?  There are
people here saying "move to mm3 now!!, etc.", but what's the selling
point?

-Jim P.


I have been posting those selling points frequently. But you are 
*inflexible* in your insistence in using MM2.


I will give you a 3 second selling point: *flexibility*, choices, future 
new features, searchable archives, a growing community of users, etc.


--
Brian Carpenter
Harmonylists.com
Emwd.com

--
Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/
   https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/

[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

On 9/17/20 1:59 PM, Christian F Buser via Mailman-Users wrote:

I am in no way a programmer - but as I understand it, Python 2 can live
alongside Python 3 without any problems.

The EOL declaration for Python 2 does NOT mean that Python 2 will stop working
on the date the publishers announced. There will just be no improvements. And
as long as there are no obvious security holes in Python 2, it is absolutely
not necessary to retire it on any machine.

I am administering some mailing lists which run on MM2 / cPanel, and they work.
I have no access to that machine other than via cPanel, and it is in most cases
sufficient. The question of Python 2 yes or no is up to the provider.

If you absolutely want to get rid of Python 2, either use Mailman 3, or another
mailing list manager.

There are some other mailing list managers available - some for free, some for money. I can
propose 2 of them here, you mey find others which may work for you. I am also operating some
mailing lists privately, they don’t use Mailman. They use CommuniGate Pro in the
"community edition" (free version with limited number of mail and other users, but
unlimited number of mailing lists and mailing list subscribers). This runs on an older Mac mini
in my basement - CGPro is also available for Windows, Linux, etc.
-

And there is Sympa, a mailing list manager created by people from French universities,
see and

Christian

I am sure Christian also meant to include me in their list of other
choices: https://harmonylists.com. At least I still offer Mailman 3
howbeit as a SaaS provider and not encourage a fellow mailman user on a
mailman user list to move away from using mailman.

--
Brian Carpenter
Harmonylists.com
Emwd.com

--
Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/

[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

On Thu, 2020-09-17 at 14:15 -0400, Brian Carpenter wrote:
> On 9/17/20 1:45 PM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
> > That's kind of my point. mm2 works for me and my use, I'd much rather
> > prefer to keep it working than to rip it out and replace it, including
> > installed and maintaining a database, a framework, a new setup of custom
> > admin scripts unique to my setup, etc.  No one has sold me on mm3 yet.
> 
> It's because you don't want to be sold. 

Absolutely not.  I'm intrigued by the idea of mailman-core (1/3 of mm3)
with a lightweight web-based GUI in front of it.  But, to date, that
doesn't exist. I also don't see the need for a db and api with a MLM,
but I do see value in those things.

> But I will say this, what you 
> want as a list owner, and what your list members want are two different 
> things. They may line up and they may not. But I suspect many list 
> owners are watching their mm2 lists shrink either in membership size or 
> posting activity. Communication behavior changes. Social media has had a 
> tremendous impact on how communications work on the web. Integrations 
> are very important to a lot of groups. None of these things are possible 
> with Mailman 2. Mailman 2 is inflexible as your position to not be 
> swayed to use Mailman 3.

That's just FUD.  Don't take offense because I haven't taken you up on
your mm3 work around(s).  I have mm3 installs, but they are not what my
users want.

> Also your above comments show your unjustified bias against Mailman 3: 
> "you have to do so many things to use Mailman 3". No you don't. 

Again, you're the guy who had to pay someone else to make 2/3rds of
Mailman 3 work for you.

> I think 
> the real culprit is your custom admin scripts that you are using to make 
> up for whatever shortcomings you found with MM2.  You don't want to go 
> through the task of getting them to work with Mailman 3. Perhaps you 
> can't. So at least that is a valid point for wanting to stick with MM2. 
> However that is not the fault of Mailman 3.

My "custom scripts" are cron+bash scripts to send monthly mailman
reports out to admins.  Hardly anything that can't be re-worked anywhere
else, but why?

> > > I'm not sure what the point of this is. According to
> > > ;;, MAILOP is already on Mailman 3.
> > They are not, (i'd guess most likely due to overly optimistic views on
> > how easy a migration to mm3 would be, perhaps they needed a bigger
> > server or had to hire a database guy, who really knows).  What i do know
> > is that, from a post yesterday, they are still using an old Mailman
> > version:
> > 
> > Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2020 08:37:43 -0500
> > Subject: Re: [mailop] Spam using bit.ly link shorteners,
> >  this time via Outlook
> > X-BeenThere:mai...@mailop.org
> > X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
> > Precedence: list
> > List-Id: For mail operators 
> > 
> > 
> > I'd email Simon to ask why the discrepancy, but he's already alluded to
> > it a few times on their list.  Note: he originally planned to started
> > moving mailop.org to mm3 last December, so he's had plenty of time.
> 
> Please let Simon know I can install Mailman 3 and migrate his list to 
> Mailman 3 within a day.

I won't be your salesman. 

> > > It appears NANOG has only 3 public Mailman 2.1 lists and only one has
> > > archives pre-dating MM 2.1 which could require attention before
> > > importing to HyperKitty. So list migration via `mailman import21` and
> > > `django-admin hyperkitty_import` should be straightforward.
> > > 
> > > I guess you are saying that step 1, "First install Mailman 3" would be
> > > the sticking point, but this is the same whether you are NANOG or
> > > mail.python.org or tiny site with one list, and it has been accomplished
> > > multiple times by multiple people. I've documented my experience at
> > > ;;. Brian's take is at
> > > ;;.
> > > 
> > I've read both of those links in the past, and honestly that is good
> > detail to have.  What I was looking for in an "elevator pitch" is a 30
> > second statement on what benefit someone would have by moving to mm3.
> > Given the time and effort (big or small) why should anyone move to mm3
> > if their mm2 installation still works and functions fine?  There are
> > people here saying "move to mm3 now!!, etc.", but what's the selling
> > point?
> > 
> > -Jim P.
> 
> I have been posting those selling points frequently. But you are 
> *inflexible* in your insistence in using MM2.

So re-capping them should be easy and do'able, right?

> I will give you a 3 second selling point: *flexibility*, choices, future 
> new features, searchable archives, a growing community of users, etc.

I hope you one day see how ridiculous that sounds as an elevator pitch.
;-)

-Jim P.


--
Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to mail

[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

2020-09-17 Thread Christian F Buser via Mailman-Users

Hello Brian Carpenter. On Thu, 17 Sep 2020 14:20:06 -0400, you wrote:

> I am sure Christian also meant to include me in their list of other 
> choices: https://harmonylists.com. At least I still offer Mailman 3 
> howbeit as a SaaS provider and not encourage a fellow mailman user on 
> a mailman user list to move away from using mailman.

Of course I do not want do move anyone away from Mailman. If Phil absolutely 
wants to retire Python 2 on his machine(s), he should either use MM3 or any 
other products. And I just did not think of your services when I wrote my reply 
to him. Good that you mentioned them. 

Christian 

-- 
Christian F. Buser, Hohle Gasse 6, CH-5507 Mellingen (Switzerland)  
Hilfe fuer Strassenkinder in Ghana: https://www.chance-for-children.org
--
Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/

[Mailman-Users] Re: Archive Issue

On 9/17/2020 1:06 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> OK. First make a backup of /var/lib/mailman/archives/public/ just in
> case, although it appears that
> /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/rushtalk is more up to date. Then go
> to the web admin UI for both the mailman and rushtalk lists and set
> Archiving Options -> archive_private to private and then set it back to
> public.
>
> That should fix it.
>
> The story is all updates are done in /var/lib/mailman/archives/private,
> and /var/lib/mailman/archives/public should contain only symlinks to
> /var/lib/mailman/archives/private. Since
> /var/lib/mailman/archives/public contains archives rather than symlinks,
> those archives are static as of whatever created them and are never updated.
Hit a bug page. Note this is the production server running 2.1.15 but
the test server running 2.1.34 got the same thing. This is the error log:

Sep 17 12:37:13 2020 admin(24458):

admin(24458): [- Mailman Version: 2.1.15 -]
admin(24458): [- Traceback --]
admin(24458): Traceback (most recent call last):
admin(24458):   File "/usr/lib/mailman/scripts/driver", line 112, in
run_main
admin(24458): main()
admin(24458):   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/admin.py", line 227,
in main
admin(24458): mlist.Save()
admin(24458):   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 582,
in Save
admin(24458): self.CheckHTMLArchiveDir()
admin(24458):   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/Archiver.py",
line 236, in CheckHTMLArchiveDir
admin(24458): breaklink(pubdir)
admin(24458):   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/Archiver.py",
line 56, in breaklink
admin(24458): os.unlink(link)
admin(24458): OSError: [Errno 21] Is a directory:
'/var/lib/mailman/archives/public/rushtalk'
admin(24458): [- Python Information -]
admin(24458): sys.version =   2.7.5 (default, Jun 11 2019, 14:33:56)
[GCC 4.8.5 20150623 (Red Hat 4.8.5-39)]
admin(24458): sys.executable  =   /usr/bin/python
admin(24458): sys.prefix  =   /usr
admin(24458): sys.exec_prefix =   /usr
admin(24458): sys.path    =   ['/usr/lib/mailman/pythonlib',
'/usr/lib/mailman', '/usr/lib/mailman/scripts', '/usr/lib/mailman',
'/usr/lib64/python27.zip', '/usr/lib64/python2.7/',
'/usr/lib64/python2.7/plat-linux2', '/usr/lib64/python2.7/lib-tk',
'/usr/lib64/python2.7/lib-old', '/usr/lib64/python2.7/lib-dynload',
'/usr/lib/python2.7/site-packages']
admin(24458): sys.platform    =   linux2
admin(24458): [- Environment Variables -]
admin(24458):   HTTP_COOKIE:
rushtalk+admin=28020069a4ac635f73280031666237653866353739613765303565326633653266646330663738613838333931383633386635
admin(24458):   CONTEXT_DOCUMENT_ROOT: /usr/lib/mailman/cgi-bin/
admin(24458):   SERVER_SOFTWARE: Apache/2.4.6 (Red Hat Enterprise Linux)
OpenSSL/1.0.2k-fips
admin(24458):   CONTEXT_PREFIX: /mailman/
admin(24458):   SERVER_SIGNATURE:
admin(24458):   REQUEST_METHOD: GET
admin(24458):   PATH_INFO: /rushtalk/archive
admin(24458):   SERVER_PROTOCOL: HTTP/1.1
admin(24458):   QUERY_STRING:
admin(24458):   HTTP_USER_AGENT: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; Win64;
x64; rv:80.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/80.0
admin(24458):   HTTP_CONNECTION: keep-alive
admin(24458):   HTTP_REFERER: http://galene.csd.net/mailman/admin/rushtalk
admin(24458):   SERVER_NAME: galene.csd.net
admin(24458):   REMOTE_ADDR: 162.230.29.192
admin(24458):   PATH_TRANSLATED: /var/www/html/rushtalk/archive
admin(24458):   SERVER_PORT: 80
admin(24458):   SERVER_ADDR: 204.181.152.21
admin(24458):   DOCUMENT_ROOT: /var/www/html
admin(24458):   PYTHONPATH: /usr/lib/mailman
admin(24458):   SCRIPT_FILENAME: /usr/lib/mailman/cgi-bin/admin
admin(24458):   SERVER_ADMIN: root@localhost
admin(24458):   HTTP_DNT: 1
admin(24458):   HTTP_HOST: galene.csd.net
admin(24458):   SCRIPT_NAME: /mailman/admin
admin(24458):   HTTP_UPGRADE_INSECURE_REQUESTS: 1
admin(24458):   REQUEST_URI: /mailman/admin/rushtalk/archive
admin(24458):   HTTP_ACCEPT:
text/html,application/xhtml+xml,application/xml;q=0.9,image/webp,*/*;q=0.8
admin(24458):   GATEWAY_INTERFACE: CGI/1.1
admin(24458):   REMOTE_PORT: 61998
admin(24458):   HTTP_ACCEPT_LANGUAGE: en-US,en;q=0.5
admin(24458):   REQUEST_SCHEME: http
admin(24458):   HTTP_ACCEPT_ENCODING: gzip, deflate
admin(24458):   UNIQUE_ID: X2Os2dJmdT9yDBIgbsvt@gk
>
> Note that if you go to the private archive URL at
> http://example.com/mailman/private/rushtalk or wherever it it, you
> should see your recent messages.
>
> I'll be out for a few hours, so if you need more, it'll have to wait.
>
I can wait. Thanks.



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
--
Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: http

[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x


On 9/17/20 2:27 PM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:

On Thu, 2020-09-17 at 14:15 -0400, Brian Carpenter wrote:
Absolutely not.  I'm intrigued by the idea of mailman-core (1/3 of mm3)
with a lightweight web-based GUI in front of it.  But, to date, that
doesn't exist. I also don't see the need for a db and api with a MLM,
but I do see value in those things.


No just a need for a 15 year out-dated user interface and a MLM that 
requires an EOL version of Python. Otherwise Mailman 3 can behave in the 
same manner as Mailman 2. The installation of Mailman 3 takes an hour. 
That includes OS, web server, database, MTA and python 3. All of the 
complexity you continue to gripe about is, to use your word, fud.




That's just FUD.  Don't take offense because I haven't taken you up on
your mm3 work around(s).  I have mm3 installs, but they are not what my
users want.


There it is again. A use of a word meant to imply something negative. 
Affinity and Empathy are not "workarounds". They are modern interfaces 
that I developed because I host MANY list owners with all kinds of 
requirements. I also wanted something to set apart myself from other 
potential competitors. I am still using Postorius and Hyperkitty to for 
Mailman 3 hosting clients. They are still fine to work with.


So your users don't want to use a MLM that works just like Mailman 2? 
Mailman 3 can just be that but the potential to be more is there, a 
potential that Mailman 2 does not have.




Again, you're the guy who had to pay someone else to make 2/3rds of
Mailman 3 work for you.


Again a disingenuous remark. You pull the same bs with Stephen all the 
time. Mailman 3 works fine apart from Affinity/Empathy. I accomplished a 
bold marketing and brand move with those two applications. You wouldn't 
understand that. I am no longer on the same playing field with budget 
hosts. I have set my company apart from them. Why because Mailman 3 gave 
me the ability to do that. Mailman 2 did not.



My "custom scripts" are cron+bash scripts to send monthly mailman
reports out to admins.  Hardly anything that can't be re-worked anywhere
else, but why?


Then why bring them up as a reason to not use MM3?



Please let Simon know I can install Mailman 3 and migrate his list to
Mailman 3 within a day.

I won't be your salesman.


Yet you have been in the past. Jimmy, did I offend you???



I hope you one day see how ridiculous that sounds as an elevator pitch.


Not anymore ridiculous as your proposals to work harder to keep an EOL 
MLM application alive when its replacement is alive and well.




--
Brian Carpenter
Harmonylists.com
Emwd.com
--
Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/
   https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/

[Mailman-Users] Re: Archive Issue


On 9/17/2020 1:50 PM, Dennis Putnam wrote:


admin(24458): OSError: [Errno 21] Is a directory:
'/var/lib/mailman/archives/public/rushtalk'


ICBW but files in public/ should be symlinks to subdirs in private/ i.e. 
public/rushtalk should be a symlink to private/rushtalk and not a directory.


Dima
--
Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/
   https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/

[Mailman-Users] Re: Archive Issue

On 9/17/2020 2:57 PM, Dmitri Maziuk wrote:
> On 9/17/2020 1:50 PM, Dennis Putnam wrote:
>
>> admin(24458): OSError: [Errno 21] Is a directory:
>> '/var/lib/mailman/archives/public/rushtalk'
>
> ICBW but files in public/ should be symlinks to subdirs in private/
> i.e. public/rushtalk should be a symlink to private/rushtalk and not a
> directory.
>
> Dima
I know. That is what Mark is trying to help me fix. Public contains all
the archives rather than private so creating a symlink will destroy the
archives.



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
--
Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/

[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

On Thu, 2020-09-17 at 14:56 -0400, Brian Carpenter wrote:
> On 9/17/20 2:27 PM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
> > On Thu, 2020-09-17 at 14:15 -0400, Brian Carpenter wrote:
> > Absolutely not.  I'm intrigued by the idea of mailman-core (1/3 of mm3)
> > with a lightweight web-based GUI in front of it.  But, to date, that
> > doesn't exist. I also don't see the need for a db and api with a MLM,
> > but I do see value in those things.
> 
> No just a need for a 15 year out-dated user interface and a MLM that 
> requires an EOL version of Python. Otherwise Mailman 3 can behave in the 
> same manner as Mailman 2. The installation of Mailman 3 takes an hour. 
> That includes OS, web server, database, MTA and python 3. All of the 
> complexity you continue to gripe about is, to use your word, fud.

The age of a product shouldn't determine it's usefulness.  Is Mark less
useful because of his age?  WTF dude?  

I don't get how you are a champion of mm3 being a simple install. You do
realize this list's archive is full of your problems with mm3, right? 
That, and you had to replace 2/3 of mm3 to get what you wanted?  How is
that easy, and how is that done in 1 hour?

> 
> > That's just FUD.  Don't take offense because I haven't taken you up on
> > your mm3 work around(s).  I have mm3 installs, but they are not what my
> > users want.
> 
> There it is again. A use of a word meant to imply something negative. 
> Affinity and Empathy are not "workarounds". They are modern interfaces 
> that I developed because I host MANY list owners with all kinds of 
> requirements. I also wanted something to set apart myself from other 
> potential competitors. I am still using Postorius and Hyperkitty to for 
> Mailman 3 hosting clients. They are still fine to work with.
> 
> So your users don't want to use a MLM that works just like Mailman 2? 
> Mailman 3 can just be that but the potential to be more is there, a 
> potential that Mailman 2 does not have.
> 
> 
> > Again, you're the guy who had to pay someone else to make 2/3rds of
> > Mailman 3 work for you.
> 
> Again a disingenuous remark. You pull the same bs with Stephen all the 
> time. Mailman 3 works fine apart from Affinity/Empathy. I accomplished a 
> bold marketing and brand move with those two applications. You wouldn't 
> understand that. 

I do understand it, it's just that your business doesn't matter one way
or the other to me.  I get the sense that you might think we are MLM
competitors, we're not.  You have a MLM business, I just host a few
lists for others at my expense.

> I am no longer on the same playing field with budget 
> hosts. I have set my company apart from them. Why because Mailman 3 gave 
> me the ability to do that. Mailman 2 did not.
> 
> > My "custom scripts" are cron+bash scripts to send monthly mailman
> > reports out to admins.  Hardly anything that can't be re-worked anywhere
> > else, but why?
> 
> Then why bring them up as a reason to not use MM3?

They were a bullet point in a list of bullet points, nothing more.

> 
> > > Please let Simon know I can install Mailman 3 and migrate his list to
> > > Mailman 3 within a day.
> > I won't be your salesman.
> 
> Yet you have been in the past. Jimmy, did I offend you???

In the past I simply sent someone to you because they came to me asking
to pay me to do a mm3 migration. I told them I was no fan, but that you
were.  I don't get your "Jimmy" comment, but whatever dude.

> > I hope you one day see how ridiculous that sounds as an elevator pitch.
> 
> Not anymore ridiculous as your proposals to work harder to keep an EOL 
> MLM application alive when its replacement is alive and well.

I'm curious, do you get a new car every year when the dealership
replaces last year's model?

-Jim P.


--
Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/

[Mailman-Users] Re: Archive Issue


On 9/17/2020 2:13 PM, Dennis Putnam wrote:


I know. That is what Mark is trying to help me fix. Public contains all
the archives rather than private so creating a symlink will destroy the
archives.


??? Can't you move it?

Dima
--
Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/
   https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/

[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

2020-09-17 Thread Phil Stracchino

On 2020-09-17 13:59, Christian F Buser wrote:
> I am in no way a programmer - but as I understand it, Python 2 can live 
> alongside Python 3 without any problems. 

Oh, indeed, it totally can.  And right now, it does, on two of my three
Linux boxes.  I've managed to get Python2 completely off the third, but
the other two still have dependencies on it.


> The EOL declaration for Python 2 does NOT mean that Python 2 will stop 
> working on the date the publishers announced. There will just be no 
> improvements. And as long as there are no obvious security holes in Python 2, 
> it is absolutely not necessary to retire it on any machine.

I know it's not *necessary*.  But I consider it good hygiene not to use
EOL software.


> If you absolutely want to get rid of Python 2, either use Mailman 3, or 
> another mailing list manager. 

I'm planning to migrate to Mailman3 as soon as Gentoo stabilizes the
ebuild.  It's been a long wait, but stabilization is imminent at this point.


-- 
  Phil Stracchino
  Babylon Communications
  ph...@caerllewys.net
  p...@co.ordinate.org
  Landline: +1.603.293.8485
  Mobile:   +1.603.998.6958
--
Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/

[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

2020-09-17 Thread Phil Stracchino

On 2020-09-17 14:34, Christian F Buser via Mailman-Users wrote:
> Of course I do not want do move anyone away from Mailman. If Phil absolutely 
> wants to retire Python 2 on his machine(s),

And that is precisely my motivation.  The writing has been on the wall
for Python2 for nearly ten years.  The EOL date has already been
extended five years.  It's time to let it go.


-- 
  Phil Stracchino
  Babylon Communications
  ph...@caerllewys.net
  p...@co.ordinate.org
  Landline: +1.603.293.8485
  Mobile:   +1.603.998.6958
--
Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/

[Mailman-Users] Re: Archive Issue

On 9/17/20 11:50 AM, Dennis Putnam wrote:
> Hit a bug page. Note this is the production server running 2.1.15 but
> the test server running 2.1.34 got the same thing. This is the error log:
> 
> Sep 17 12:37:13 2020 admin(24458):
> 
> admin(24458): [- Mailman Version: 2.1.15 -]
> admin(24458): [- Traceback --]
> admin(24458): Traceback (most recent call last):
> admin(24458):   File "/usr/lib/mailman/scripts/driver", line 112, in
> run_main
> admin(24458): main()
> admin(24458):   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/admin.py", line 227,
> in main
> admin(24458): mlist.Save()
> admin(24458):   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 582,
> in Save
> admin(24458): self.CheckHTMLArchiveDir()
> admin(24458):   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/Archiver.py",
> line 236, in CheckHTMLArchiveDir
> admin(24458): breaklink(pubdir)
> admin(24458):   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/Archiver.py",
> line 56, in breaklink
> admin(24458): os.unlink(link)
> admin(24458): OSError: [Errno 21] Is a directory:

I thought that might happen, but I didn't confirm it. Oh well ...

Do this:

rm -rf /var/lib/mailman/archives/public/*

Then Toggle the archive_private setting in the web admin UI for both lists.

The background on what caused this in the first place is you apparently
copied your production Mailman installation to a test environment, but
whatever process you used to do the copy, copied the targets of the
symlinks in /var/lib/mailman/archives/public/ instead of copying the
symlinks as symlinks.

This is what causes the issue with public archives no longer being
updated. They actually are updated in
/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/, but the pipermail URLs point to the
old, static archive now copied to /var/lib/mailman/archives/public/.

We've seen this multiple times in backup/restore scenarios and moving
installations to another server.

The bottom line is when backing up, always ensure you copy symlinks as
symlinks and not their targets. For rsync, this is -l/--links (included
as part of -a/--archive). For cp, it's -d or -P/--no-dereference or
-a/--archive.

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
--
Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/

[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x


On 9/17/2020 3:59 PM, Phil Stracchino wrote:


...  The writing has been on the wall
for Python2 for nearly ten years.  The EOL date has already been
extended five years.  It's time to let it go.



The big concern du jour in science community is: can you take your 
scripts from 10 years ago and re-run them, and will you get the same 
groundbreaking result that you published back then if so. That's the 
main motivation for singularity, among other things.


So no: you can't let it go. You can freeze-dry it in a container, and 
nobody will probably ever try to reproduce that old junk, but if you do 
"let it go" consider this: the next vaccine that gets injected in your 
bloodstream may have originated with a trivial bug in someone's 10yo 
python script, and the only way you find out is when you die in horrible 
pain.


Dima
--
Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/
   https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/

[Mailman-Users] Re: Archive Issue

On 9/17/2020 5:34 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 9/17/20 11:50 AM, Dennis Putnam wrote:
>> Hit a bug page. Note this is the production server running 2.1.15 but
>> the test server running 2.1.34 got the same thing. This is the error log:
>>
>> Sep 17 12:37:13 2020 admin(24458):
>> 
>> admin(24458): [- Mailman Version: 2.1.15 -]
>> admin(24458): [- Traceback --]
>> admin(24458): Traceback (most recent call last):
>> admin(24458):   File "/usr/lib/mailman/scripts/driver", line 112, in
>> run_main
>> admin(24458): main()
>> admin(24458):   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/admin.py", line 227,
>> in main
>> admin(24458): mlist.Save()
>> admin(24458):   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 582,
>> in Save
>> admin(24458): self.CheckHTMLArchiveDir()
>> admin(24458):   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/Archiver.py",
>> line 236, in CheckHTMLArchiveDir
>> admin(24458): breaklink(pubdir)
>> admin(24458):   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/Archiver.py",
>> line 56, in breaklink
>> admin(24458): os.unlink(link)
>> admin(24458): OSError: [Errno 21] Is a directory:
> I thought that might happen, but I didn't confirm it. Oh well ...
>
> Do this:
>
> rm -rf /var/lib/mailman/archives/public/*
>
> Then Toggle the archive_private setting in the web admin UI for both lists.
>
> The background on what caused this in the first place is you apparently
> copied your production Mailman installation to a test environment, but
> whatever process you used to do the copy, copied the targets of the
> symlinks in /var/lib/mailman/archives/public/ instead of copying the
> symlinks as symlinks.
>
> This is what causes the issue with public archives no longer being
> updated. They actually are updated in
> /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/, but the pipermail URLs point to the
> old, static archive now copied to /var/lib/mailman/archives/public/.
>
> We've seen this multiple times in backup/restore scenarios and moving
> installations to another server.
>
> The bottom line is when backing up, always ensure you copy symlinks as
> symlinks and not their targets. For rsync, this is -l/--links (included
> as part of -a/--archive). For cp, it's -d or -P/--no-dereference or
> -a/--archive.
>
Hi Mark,
 
I'll give that a try tomorrow. In the meantime I discovered something
that may or may not be relevant. Apparently the last saved archive was
in Feb 2020. That was when I did a 'yum update' to version 2.1.15 to
resolve the DMARC problem. I am betting that the RHEL version did
something to cause this problem. It is too much of a coincidence to
think otherwise.



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
--
Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/

[Mailman-Users] Re: Archive Issue