[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x
OK, I'm back and more or less caught up so I'm ready to continue this discussion. In his initial post in this thread, Jim suggests that he and others want to join the Mailman Coders team on Launchpad in order to commit to the Mailman 2.1 branch there. In a thread on the merge proposal that started this, Jim quotes my conjecture that he wants not only commit permission, but also the ability to make releases and distribute them to the appropriate download locations, and says that's "overkill". He also notes my suggestion that he make a proposal to mailman-ca...@python.org which he has not yet done. [1] I mentioned that previously in this thread [2] and Jim replied that my suggestions were "over the top" [3]. So much for background. Here's my current position. Steve has presented a summary of issues [4] with which I agree. For my part, I have stated that I am willing to continue in my role as Mailman 2.1 release manager and to fix critical bugs and security issues and commit i18n updates, but not implement new features. I am also happy to continue to support Mailman 2.1 users via this list. In fact, I just reported and fixed a bug [5]. However, if third parties are making changes to the code base, I can no longer make signed releases of code that I haven't audited, and this auditing is what I don't want to do. Jim seems to want to be able to make these changes, but seems unwilling to take over as release manager. So, what is the value of these changes if there is never another release? I think that's probably enough for this post. I will try to answer any follow-ups. [1] https://code.launchpad.net/~jks/mailman/hcaptcha/+merge/389691/comments/1024990 [2] https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/message/ADOK7LGWRKNM4EJIZKO6CSIJRWCYS74A/ [3] https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/message/RUZCFKDQAS2AGTPD3GXMCN7B7YBQF245/ [4] https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/message/XCGIWMFWRY63DZOYHJPRCCUYUXBNDK67/ [5] https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/1895451 -- Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/ Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/ https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/
[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x
On Sun, 2020-09-13 at 15:36 +, Mark Sapiro wrote: > OK, I'm back and more or less caught up so I'm ready to continue this > discussion. > > In his initial post in this thread, Jim suggests that he and others want to > join the Mailman Coders team on Launchpad in order to commit to the Mailman > 2.1 branch there. In a thread on the merge proposal that started this, Jim > quotes my conjecture that he wants not only commit permission, but also the > ability to make releases and distribute them to the appropriate download > locations, and says that's "overkill". He also notes my suggestion that he > make a proposal to mailman-ca...@python.org which he has not yet done. [1] I > mentioned that previously in this thread [2] and Jim replied that my > suggestions were "over the top" [3]. > > So much for background. Here's my current position. Steve has presented a > summary of issues [4] with which I agree. For my part, I have stated that I > am willing to continue in my role as Mailman 2.1 release manager and to fix > critical bugs and security issues and commit i18n updates, but not implement > new features. I am also happy to continue to support Mailman 2.1 users via > this list. In fact, I just reported and fixed a bug [5]. > > However, if third parties are making changes to the code base, I can no > longer make signed releases of code that I haven't audited, and this auditing > is what I don't want to do. > > Jim seems to want to be able to make these changes, but seems unwilling to > take over as release manager. So, what is the value of these changes if there > is never another release? > > I think that's probably enough for this post. I will try to answer any > follow-ups. > > [1] > https://code.launchpad.net/~jks/mailman/hcaptcha/+merge/389691/comments/1024990 > [2] > https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/message/ADOK7LGWRKNM4EJIZKO6CSIJRWCYS74A/ > [3] > https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/message/RUZCFKDQAS2AGTPD3GXMCN7B7YBQF245/ > [4] > https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/message/XCGIWMFWRY63DZOYHJPRCCUYUXBNDK67/ > [5] https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/1895451 Since it's not clear enough, my "overkill" statement about specifically about the laundry list of things that Mark said I would need commit and update access to [1], which seemed above and beyond necessary to me. More specifically that list of access-to-everything seems to me like a jellybean test. e.g. "Ask for all of this so that it is impossible for you get get any of it". 1. https://code.launchpad.net/~jks/mailman/hcaptcha/+merge/389691/comments/1024988 I standby my feelings that some people want to quietly run away from this established product and make it impossible for any others to take over. See Stephens previous comments about how there was no way he could or would work with anyone working on mm2 because it was against his objectives, yet he wanted to remain as one of the few in the Cabal (really just who is the Cabal these days?), thereby preventing any mm2 people from being in the Cabal, the Cabal that Mark just said myself and anyone else would need permission and access from. It looks like a rotten egg, it smells like a rotten egg, What I want to hear from the Cabal is that there is support and appreciation for efforts by others to carry on with mm2 in any direction it takes them and that their representation in the Cabal is assured. -Jim P. -- Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/ Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/ https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/
[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x
On 9/13/20 9:01 AM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote: > > What I want to hear from the Cabal is that there is support and > appreciation for efforts by others to carry on with mm2 in any direction > it takes them and that their representation in the Cabal is assured. So make a proposal to mailman-ca...@python.org -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/ Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/ https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/
[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x
On Sun, 2020-09-13 at 09:16 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote: > On 9/13/20 9:01 AM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote: > > What I want to hear from the Cabal is that there is support and > > appreciation for efforts by others to carry on with mm2 in any direction > > it takes them and that their representation in the Cabal is assured. > > So make a proposal to mailman-ca...@python.org I think at this point the onus is on the Cabal to formally state their position given that we seen waffling about mm2 finality and security releases (yes, it did eventually turn out better than it looked), and comments like this from a current Cabal member: "...the GNU Mailman Project whose core members control access to Mailman resources ranging from mailing list moderation to GSoC slots, has the goal of developing, maintaining and promoting Mailman 3, while winding down Mailman 2 gracefully." Just what is the Cabal willing to accept in a proposal? -Jim P. -- Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/ Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/ https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/
[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x
On 9/13/2020 11:01 AM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote: (really just who is the Cabal these days?) There Is No Lumber Cartel. HTH, HAND -- Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/ Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/ https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/
[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x
On 9/13/20 9:29 AM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote: > > Just what is the Cabal willing to accept in a proposal? Try us and see? My own opinion is I would want a commitment to take over what I currently do including making releases on Launchpad, distributing them to sourceforge and gnu.org, updating version info on https://www.list.org/ (and mirrors) and announcing them. I would be willing to mentor someone through this process. I would ask for all that because I am not willing to make releases of code I haven't audited, and if I were willing to audit all the changes, we wouldn't be having this conversation at all. And, I don't see what use there is of just updating the branch on Launchpad without making releases. You may have ideas about how this can work without all that. That's why I think we want to see and discuss your proposal. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/ Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/ https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/
[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x
Hi all I am just a user of a Mailman 2 installation on cPanel. And I am reading here because i get some answers to my questions and help if something goes wrong. As long as cPanel bundles MM2, I need from time to time some support from the real experts. And even if MM2 would not be improved at all in the future, I hope that this list will stay alive. Christian -- Christian F. Buser, Hohle Gasse 6, CH-5507 Mellingen (Switzerland) Hilfe fuer Strassenkinder in Ghana: http://www.chance-for-children.org -- Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/ Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/ https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/
[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x
I am loathe, as a lowly list administrator (on cPanel hosts, at that) to participate in the clash of titans, but this _is_ the "mailman-users" discussion list. It is somewhat distressing to see so little participation by the Mailman2 users, who will be most affected by any changes in its support. Speaking as _a_ user, my requirements are simple: 1. MM2 must continue to work, 2. support must continue to be provided. Any proposal that jeopardizes those fundamentals must be rejected. By "support", I mean everything except new functionality: bug fixes, installation/administration hand-holding, dumb questions not properly answered by the user community, the occasional "Why does Mailman do this?" query, and any number of issues that depend on the encyclopedic institutional knowledge residing in Mark's and Stephen's crania. This includes structural changes to way email is handled (DMARC, encryption, etc.). This does not include additional language tables, or any of the issues on my personal laundry list of "I sure wish Mailman had a way to ...". -Chip- On 9/13/2020 1:06 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote: On 9/13/20 9:29 AM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote: Just what is the Cabal willing to accept in a proposal? Try us and see? My own opinion is I would want a commitment to take over what I currently do including making releases on Launchpad, distributing them to sourceforge and gnu.org, updating version info on https://www.list.org/ (and mirrors) and announcing them. I would be willing to mentor someone through this process. I would ask for all that because I am not willing to make releases of code I haven't audited, and if I were willing to audit all the changes, we wouldn't be having this conversation at all. And, I don't see what use there is of just updating the branch on Launchpad without making releases. You may have ideas about how this can work without all that. That's why I think we want to see and discuss your proposal. -- Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/ Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/ https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/
[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x
On 9/13/20 3:39 PM, Chip Davis wrote: I am loathe, as a lowly list administrator (on cPanel hosts, at that) to participate in the clash of titans, but this _is_ the "mailman-users" discussion list. It is somewhat distressing to see so little participation by the Mailman2 users, who will be most affected by any changes in its support. Speaking as _a_ user, my requirements are simple: 1. MM2 must continue to work, 2. support must continue to be provided. Any proposal that jeopardizes those fundamentals must be rejected. By "support", I mean everything except new functionality: bug fixes, installation/administration hand-holding, dumb questions not properly answered by the user community, the occasional "Why does Mailman do this?" query, and any number of issues that depend on the encyclopedic institutional knowledge residing in Mark's and Stephen's crania. The first line of support should come from your cPanel host and perhaps cPanel themselves. They made their own modifications to Mailman and with Mark's correct thinking on support custom modifications, cPanel should be supporting their version of Mailman. -- Please let me know if you need further assistance. Thank you for your business. We appreciate our clients. Brian Carpenter EMWD.com -- EMWD's Knowledgebase: https://clientarea.emwd.com/index.php/knowledgebase EMWD's Community Forums http://discourse.emwd.com/ -- Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/ Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/ https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/
[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x
On 9/13/20 12:39 PM, Chip Davis wrote: > > Speaking as _a_ user, my requirements are simple: > 1. MM2 must continue to work, > 2. support must continue to be provided. > > Any proposal that jeopardizes those fundamentals must be rejected. > > By "support", I mean everything except new functionality: bug fixes, > installation/administration hand-holding, dumb questions not properly > answered by the user community, the occasional "Why does Mailman do > this?" query, and any number of issues that depend on the encyclopedic > institutional knowledge residing in Mark's and Stephen's crania. > > This includes structural changes to way email is handled (DMARC, > encryption, etc.). This does not include additional language tables, or > any of the issues on my personal laundry list of "I sure wish Mailman > had a way to ...". This thread started because I refused to accept a merge request to add a new feature, hCAPTCHA, to the subscribe form. The reason I gave was "no new features", although I have other reservations about CAPTCHAs in general. I think I have made my position clear and I think it includes my doing all the things Chip wants, although I'm 78 years old, and it's not unlikely that I will die before Mailman 2.1 finally does. What I am opposed to is third parties making changes to the code base and expecting me to continue to make releases, so I ask that any potential group of Mailman 2.1 developers either fork the project in which case, they can do whatever they want with their fork, or if they want to commit changes to the Mailman 2.1 branch on Launchpad that they be willing to take over the entire job. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/ Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/ https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/
[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x
As it turns out, as I was hitting 'Send', Christian F Buser posted: I am just a user of a Mailman 2 installation on cPanel. And I am reading here because i get some answers to my questions and help if something goes wrong. As long as cPanel bundles MM2, I need from time to time some support from the real experts. And even if MM2 would not be improved at all in the future, I hope that this list will stay alive. ... which is a much more succinct version of what I was trying to say. And perhaps I should have substituted "needs" for "requirements", in order to avoid any intimation of a demand. I am genuinely grateful for all the help I've received, primarily from following other admins' issues reported here. Ironically, I was writing in support of Mark's and Stephen's position on the matter. As a member of Mark's cohort, the odds are I'll never need a "New! Improved!" MM2, or MM3. -Chip- On 9/13/2020 6:00 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote: On 9/13/20 12:39 PM, Chip Davis wrote: Speaking as _a_ user, my requirements are simple: 1. MM2 must continue to work, 2. support must continue to be provided. Any proposal that jeopardizes those fundamentals must be rejected. By "support", I mean everything except new functionality: bug fixes, installation/administration hand-holding, dumb questions not properly answered by the user community, the occasional "Why does Mailman do this?" query, and any number of issues that depend on the encyclopedic institutional knowledge residing in Mark's and Stephen's crania. This includes structural changes to way email is handled (DMARC, encryption, etc.). This does not include additional language tables, or any of the issues on my personal laundry list of "I sure wish Mailman had a way to ...". This thread started because I refused to accept a merge request to add a new feature, hCAPTCHA, to the subscribe form. The reason I gave was "no new features", although I have other reservations about CAPTCHAs in general. I think I have made my position clear and I think it includes my doing all the things Chip wants, although I'm 78 years old, and it's not unlikely that I will die before Mailman 2.1 finally does. What I am opposed to is third parties making changes to the code base and expecting me to continue to make releases, so I ask that any potential group of Mailman 2.1 developers either fork the project in which case, they can do whatever they want with their fork, or if they want to commit changes to the Mailman 2.1 branch on Launchpad that they be willing to take over the entire job. -- Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/ Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/ https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/
[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x
On 9/13/2020 6:17 PM, Chip Davis wrote: Ironically, I was writing in support of Mark's and Stephen's position on the matter. As a member of Mark's cohort, the odds are I'll never need a "New! Improved!" MM2, or MM3. You wish: at some point "they" will upgrade the hardware and/or the OS to fix whatever horrible security hole is ending the world as we know it this week, and the upgrade will kill python 2 compatibility. Or some obscure python 2 library nobody knew existed. "Them" being cPanel of RedHat or Cluebuntu, or any number of other players who aren't Mark and Stephen. Dima -- Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/ Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/ https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/
[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x
Yay! Most useless, uninformative post of the day! Quoting Dmitri Maziuk : On 9/13/2020 6:17 PM, Chip Davis wrote: Ironically, I was writing in support of Mark's and Stephen's position on the matter. As a member of Mark's cohort, the odds are I'll never need a "New! Improved!" MM2, or MM3. You wish: at some point "they" will upgrade the hardware and/or the OS to fix whatever horrible security hole is ending the world as we know it this week, and the upgrade will kill python 2 compatibility. Or some obscure python 2 library nobody knew existed. "Them" being cPanel of RedHat or Cluebuntu, or any number of other players who aren't Mark and Stephen. Dima -- Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/ Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/ https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/ -- Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/ Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/ https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/
