[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

2020-08-30 Thread Chip Davis
Thank you, Steve, for your thoughtful and measured reply.  I have a 
clearer picture of the ramifications of Jim's proposal, to the degree 
that he has specified it.  The longer the thread festered, the fewer 
salient points were made, so I can't say that I support it or not.  
But it's not my call in the first place.


I'm glad you have no quarrel with me.  I am merely a Mailman admin 
with no control over any of my installations.  I hope that by the time 
my ISPs drop MM2, there will be ample tools to make the conversion to 
MM3 relatively painless.  Despite an exhaustive search, I can find no 
suitable and affordable alternative.


BTW, the original Rexx interpreter was written in IBM Assembler 
(proprietary), Regina in C (GPL), ooRexx in C/C++ (CPL), NetRexx in 
NetRexx(!) (CPL), and BSF4ooRexx in ooRexx (CPL/AL).  There has been 
no "branching" whatsoever.  Yet there is a lively cross-platform 
collaboration when issues arise, from architecture down to patch. And 
yes, sometimes it can get testy. ;-)


Thank you for you patience.  I consider this matter closed.

-Chip-

On 8/30/2020 1:29 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

I wrote a long screed, full of piss and vinegar.  But on reflection,
clearly nobody is reading what I wrote earlier, so let's try pithy and
dry.  It's still long. :-(

Chip Davis writes:

  > OK guys, what's really going on here?

I don't know.  I can tell you I'm done with Jim.  You'll have to ask
him about what he thinks is going on.

I have differences of opinion with you and Carl, but no quarrel.

  > Is this about turf?

Not on our side.  I have genuine concerns.  In Mark's most recent
post, he writes:

  > We only asked that these potential new members actually ask to join
  > the GNU Mailman project as members.

That doesn't look like a concern with turf to me.  Mark may not have
the same concerns I do, or any at all, I don't know.  We'll have to
wait until he gets back.  In the meantime, I'll lay out mine.

  > Is there something about Jim's proposal that requires resources
  > (money, proprietary code, prestige, etc.) from the GNU Mailman group?

Mailman is a GNU project.  Under the GPL, Jim's proposal *needs* no
resources from the GNU Mailman Project, and no blessing from us,
either.  He has the code, and the physical resources are easy to come
by elsewhere.

Certainly it makes economic sense to use the existing repository and
other project resources to support further Mailman 2 development.  It
won't cost Mailman 3 or the Mailman Project anything to share.  But
nobody else has any *right* to any of those resources, and especially
not to the time that Mark and I devote to user support.  If you think
otherwise, you are wrong both as a matter of law and as a matter of
free software philosophy.
  
In this connection, Carl Zwanzig writes:


  > it's vastly different to say "Pay no attention to that GPL,
  > no one is allowed to maintain or improve that code."

That's incoherent.  The complaint is that people *are* maintaining and
improving the code, but we don't allow them to use our resources and
reputation to distribute their code.  That complaint is groundless.
It is fully within the GPL, letter and spirit, to refuse to distribute
code, whether others' or our own.  The spirit of the GPL is that you
can use your own resources to distribute both your code and ours.

Just ask politely, and if you want my support for you to freely commit
to and distribute from the project's Mailman 2 branch, I ask you to
commit to providing support for all its users.

Or don't commit to serving users, just don't free-ride on the Mailman
name and you can have my support.  That was the idea of my original
request to Jim.

Back to Chip:

  > [Are you] genuinely concerned that the continued viability of MM2
  > would be a threat to MM3[?]

Brian may be, and I'd like to hear why.  But at present I am not.

My concern is that a small group of highly competent power users will
take over the Mailman 2 repo, Mark and I will disengage from this list
and Mailman 2 bug channels, and support for ordinary Mailman 2 users
will go in the toilet because the new team is focused on developing an
EOL application in an EOL language, not on user support.

  > I have a little experience [with multiple "branches" of REXX] here.

With all due respect, I don't think it's relevant to what Jim has
proposed so far.  There's a detailed explanation in the "screed", but
the gist is that Mailman 2 and Mailman 3 use completely different
architectures and interfaces, so expertise simply doesn't transfer
between them.  Of recently active developers only Mark and I have
experience with both code bases, and I at least want to wash my hands
of Mailman 2.  AFAICS, the developer teams will have little to talk
about with each other.

As far as the communities go, perhaps we could work together somewhat.
We have a common history, we support the same kind of admins and list
users, there's going to be movement across the Mailman 2 vs. Mailman

[Mailman-Users] Problem with unsubscribe from host with tor node

2020-08-30 Thread Konrad Wawryn

Hi,

I would like to unsubscribe that list but it seems that Your MX which 
hosting mailman-us...@pythong.org is not Tor friendly.


Im getting confirmation from Your host, that my unsubscribe e-mail has 
been rejected - because it looks like spam. Also I`m not able to do it 
using website provided in Your E-mail footer.



IP of my server is blacklisted by primitive BL pyzor.org - because its 
part of the tor network.



Please remove by address from Your list and be more TOR friendly if 
possible.





Cheers
Konrad


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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

2020-08-30 Thread Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users
On Sun, 2020-08-30 at 14:29 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> I wrote a long screed, full of piss and vinegar.  But on reflection,
> clearly nobody is reading what I wrote earlier, so let's try pithy and
> dry.  It's still long. :-(
> 
> Chip Davis writes:
> 
>  > OK guys, what's really going on here?
> 
> I don't know.  I can tell you I'm done with Jim.  You'll have to ask
> him about what he thinks is going on.

I'm more than happy to detail it.  Stephen and Mark want to move on, and
get away from mm2, they want everyone else to follow them to mm3. They
feel that *their* reputations would be hurt if others stayed back and
continued to work on what they are abandoning. 

-Jim P.
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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

2020-08-30 Thread Julian H. Stacey
Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
> On Sun, 2020-08-30 at 14:29 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> > I wrote a long screed, full of piss and vinegar.  But on reflection,
> > clearly nobody is reading what I wrote earlier, so let's try pithy and
> > dry.  It's still long. :-(
> > 
> > Chip Davis writes:
> > 
> >  > OK guys, what's really going on here?
> > 
> > I don't know.  I can tell you I'm done with Jim.  You'll have to ask
> > him about what he thinks is going on.
> 
> I'm more than happy to detail it.  Stephen and Mark want to move on, and
> get away from mm2, they want everyone else to follow them to mm3. They
> feel that *their* reputations would be hurt if others stayed back and
> continued to work on what they are abandoning. 
> 
> -Jim P.

Risky to state what one believes other people's feeling are.

Mark has been a great help to many with MM2, self included, 
He & all who have helped with MM2 deserve thanks.

Inevitably there comes a time when some want to reduce time on MM2
to spend that time on MM3. Equally, some of us will not want to
have to find time to learn new MM3 tools & reconfig,  so will want
MM2 maintained by whoever can help on that.

Best chance to arrange amicable solution to MM2 maintenance is when 
feelings cool, so a few days pause would probably help.

Cheers,
Julian
-- 
Julian Stacey, Consultant Sys. Engineer, BSD Linux http://berklix.com/jhs/
Crash Brexit Dec. 2020 aids speculators & Russia. http://berklix.uk/brexit/
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