Re: [Mailman-Users] Server Migration

[Dennis Putnam]

Hi Robert,

Thanks for the reply. I have no access to DNS which is why the old
server needs to be shutdown and the new server renamed the same as the
old server and the IP address changed to match. I have root access to
the mailman server. I'll reply to Mark's message with more detail.

On 2/11/2020 3:50 PM, Robert Heller wrote:
> At Tue, 11 Feb 2020 14:42:15 -0500 Dennis Putnam  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Content-Language: en-US
>>
>> I've been reading up on migrating to a new server but I'm not sure I am
>> reading the right instructions. It seems that copying the lists to the
>> new server is one thing but it appears that the end result means the
>> users will have to use a new list server. That is, if users were
>> emailing listn...@oldserver.domain.com they will now have to email
>> listn...@newserver.domain.com. That is not what I want. After migrating
>> to the new server I want users to still email
>> listn...@oldserver.domain.com. I expect to simply rename the new server
>> to the old hostname and change its IP address. Can someone point me to
>> some documentation that does that type migration? TIA.
> You don't "name" (or rename) the server.  You update the DNS server to use 
> the 
> new server's IP address for the old hostname.  How you update the DNS server 
> greatly depends on exactly what sort of access you have to the DNS server.
>
> It also depends on what level of access you have to the server(s).  Are these 
> VPSs? Physical server boxes?  Are you just swapping physical hardware?  If 
> you 
> are swapping *physical hardware*, then you could, once the files are copied 
> and everything is working (eg you have tested things as 
> newserver.domain.com), 
> you could shutdown the original oldserver.domain.com, and then reconfigure 
> newserver.domain.com's IP address to be what oldserver.domain.com was.  In 
> that case, there is no need to mess with the DNS server. (You might need to 
> mess with a DHCP server, depending on how IP addresses are set up.)
>
> In order to point you in the right direction, you need to tell us more...
>
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>>
>> 




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Re: [Mailman-Users] Server Migration

[Dennis Putnam]

Hi Mark,

Those are the ones I have been reading. I guess what I need to do is a
little more complicated than I posted. The old server is running v 2.1
and we are running into DEMARC issues. Since we need to upgrade anyway
we have upgraded a new server to the latest RHEL version and mailman
3.3. Once we migrate the lists to the new server we just want the users
to message the same email addresses as before which is why I questioned
those instructions. Since we don't have access to change DNS it seems
the easiest thing to do is change their hostnames and IP addresses. If
there is a better way I am interested.

On 2/11/2020 3:51 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 2/11/20 11:42 AM, Dennis Putnam wrote:
>> I've been reading up on migrating to a new server but I'm not sure I am
>> reading the right instructions. It seems that copying the lists to the
>> new server is one thing but it appears that the end result means the
>> users will have to use a new list server. That is, if users were
>> emailing listn...@oldserver.domain.com they will now have to email
>> listn...@newserver.domain.com. That is not what I want. After migrating
>> to the new server I want users to still email
>> listn...@oldserver.domain.com. I expect to simply rename the new server
>> to the old hostname and change its IP address. Can someone point me to
>> some documentation that does that type migration? TIA.
>
> This is dead simple.
>
> Have you seen , in particular, the two
> archived posts linked from the first paragraph.
>
> In any case, there are details depending on things like whether you want
> to upgrade/change configurations, but I will assume that this is just a
> matter of replacing a server and not changing Mailman.
>
> In that case, you just rsync almost all of Mailman to the new server.
> What I did when I did this last December is:
>
>> rsync -a --exclude /locks /var/lib/mailman/ 
>> r...@new.example.com:/var/lib/mailman
>> rsync -a --exclude *pid --exclude /locks /opt/mailman/mm/var/ 
>> r...@new.example.com:/opt/mailman/mm/var
> Depending on your installation, you may have only one directory for
> $prefix and $var_prefix. You may also have stuff in /etc/mailman.
>
> You also have to copy Mailman's crontab and the relevant web server and
> mail server configuration.
>
> You need to set TTL a day or so in advance on your DNS records that
> point to the old IP to a very short time, 300 seconds maybe even less if
> you can.
>
> Then you stop the services on the old server, change DNS to point to the
> dew IP, do the final rsyncs, and start the services on the new server,
> and you're done.
>
>
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Server Migration

[Mark Sapiro]

On 2/12/20 6:06 AM, Dennis Putnam wrote:
> Hi Mark,
> 
> Those are the ones I have been reading. I guess what I need to do is a
> little more complicated than I posted. The old server is running v 2.1
> and we are running into DEMARC issues. Since we need to upgrade anyway
> we have upgraded a new server to the latest RHEL version and mailman
> 3.3. Once we migrate the lists to the new server we just want the users
> to message the same email addresses as before which is why I questioned
> those instructions. Since we don't have access to change DNS it seems
> the easiest thing to do is change their hostnames and IP addresses. If
> there is a better way I am interested.


All the instructions/advice for moving lists are about moving from one
Mailman 2.1 installation to another. Migrating lists from Mailman 2.1 to
Mailman 3 is totally different. For that, you need a working Mailman 3
installation. You migrate Mailman 2.1 lists roughly as follows:

Create the Mailman 3 list with `mailman create`
Import the Mailman 2.1 config.pck with `mailman import21`
Import the Mailman 2.1 archives/private/xxx.mbox/zzz.mbox mailbox with
the Django Admin hyperkitty_import command.

I'm a bit confused about the rest of what you want to do. First, I don't
know what your DMARC issues might be with your current lists, but if
your Mailman 2.1 installation is relatively recent, there is essentially
no difference in DMARC mitigations between that and Mailman 3.3.

Then, your OP said you wanted users to be able to mail to the list at
listn...@oldserver.domain.com. If you don't control DNS, you apparently
can't make the MX for oldserver.domain.com point to the new server, so
the only way to accomplish this would be to maintain the old server and
create aliases there (or change the existing Mailman aliases) to send
all the mail to listname(-*)@oldserver.domain.com to the corresponding
listname(-*)@newserver.domain.com address and also make
listn...@oldserver.domain.com an acceptable alias of
thelistn...@newserver.domain.com list.

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan



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Re: [Mailman-Users] Server Migration

[Carl Zwanzig]

On 2/12/2020 6:06 AM, Dennis Putnam wrote:

Since we don't have access to change DNS it seems
the easiest thing to do is change their hostnames and IP addresses. If
there is a better way I am interested.


It's not a better-or-worse choice, it's the _only_ choice. If the users are 
sending to the server at asdf.domain.tld, you have to make the server answer 
to that IP (which means the name resolves to the IP and the server answers 
the connection).


Later,

z!
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Server Migration

[Dennis Putnam]

Hi Mark,

We finally got the networking folks to cooperate so DNS is the way we
will go. I don't know if it makes any difference but the version was a
typo, we are at 2.0.x.

Please see embedded comments.

On 2/12/2020 11:42 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 2/12/20 6:06 AM, Dennis Putnam wrote:
>> Hi Mark,
>>
>> Those are the ones I have been reading. I guess what I need to do is a
>> little more complicated than I posted. The old server is running v 2.1
>> and we are running into DEMARC issues. Since we need to upgrade anyway
>> we have upgraded a new server to the latest RHEL version and mailman
>> 3.3. Once we migrate the lists to the new server we just want the users
>> to message the same email addresses as before which is why I questioned
>> those instructions. Since we don't have access to change DNS it seems
>> the easiest thing to do is change their hostnames and IP addresses. If
>> there is a better way I am interested.
>
> All the instructions/advice for moving lists are about moving from one
> Mailman 2.1 installation to another. Migrating lists from Mailman 2.1 to
> Mailman 3 is totally different. For that, you need a working Mailman 3
> installation. You migrate Mailman 2.1 lists roughly as follows:
>
> Create the Mailman 3 list with `mailman create`
No problem there.
> Import the Mailman 2.1 config.pck with `mailman import21`
Easy enough assuming I copy config.pck to the new server to run the command.
> Import the Mailman 2.1 archives/private/xxx.mbox/zzz.mbox mailbox with
> the Django Admin hyperkitty_import command.
I'm not familiar with that. I am guessing, similar to config.pck, I copy
that directory to the new server then run that command on that
directory. I'll have to install Django.
>
> I'm a bit confused about the rest of what you want to do. First, I don't
> know what your DMARC issues might be with your current lists, but if
> your Mailman 2.1 installation is relatively recent, there is essentially
> no difference in DMARC mitigations between that and Mailman 3.3.
>
> Then, your OP said you wanted users to be able to mail to the list at
> listn...@oldserver.domain.com. If you don't control DNS, you apparently
> can't make the MX for oldserver.domain.com point to the new server, so
> the only way to accomplish this would be to maintain the old server and
> create aliases there (or change the existing Mailman aliases) to send
> all the mail to listname(-*)@oldserver.domain.com to the corresponding
> listname(-*)@newserver.domain.com address and also make
> listn...@oldserver.domain.com an acceptable alias of
> thelistn...@newserver.domain.com list.
>
>
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> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
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> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/dap1%40bellsouth.net



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Re: [Mailman-Users] Server Migration

[Mark Sapiro]

On 2/12/20 9:06 AM, Dennis Putnam wrote:
> Hi Mark,
> 
> We finally got the networking folks to cooperate so DNS is the way we
> will go. I don't know if it makes any difference but the version was a
> typo, we are at 2.0.x.

If you really mean your current Mailman is 2.0.x, trying to import to MM
3 with `mailman import21` will likely result in a mess. See the
UPGRADING FROM 2.0.x to 2.1 section at


> Please see embedded comments.
> 
>> Import the Mailman 2.1 config.pck with `mailman import21`
> Easy enough assuming I copy config.pck to the new server to run the command.

Yes.


>> Import the Mailman 2.1 archives/private/xxx.mbox/zzz.mbox mailbox with
>> the Django Admin hyperkitty_import command.
> I'm not familiar with that. I am guessing, similar to config.pck, I copy
> that directory to the new server then run that command on that
> directory. I'll have to install Django.


The Mailman 2.1 archives/private/xxx.mbox/zzz.mbox mailbox is a file,
not a directory. It is the cumulative mailbox containing all the 'zzz'
list's archived messages.

A complete Mailman 3 installation will include Postorius and HyperKitty
and Django to support them. Postorius is the web management UI for
Mailman. HyperKitty is the archiver. If you don't have that installed,
there's nothing to import the archives to.

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan



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