[Mailman-Users] Automatic subscription based on e-mail subject

[R. Diez via Mailman-Users]

Hi all:

I have the following recurring problem with mailing lists all over the Internet: people do reply to my posts, by they do not address or copy 
me in their replies. They send their e-mails only to the mailing list. Or they reply to the previous reply, and forget to copy the original 
poster.


So I do not get a copy of the relevant messages straight away. If need to manually fish their answers from the web interface. If there is 
one. And then composing e-mails is cumbersome. And the subject threading no longer works properly.


This problem has annoyed me (and other people on the Internet) for a long time.

I cannot subscribe to every mailing list I need to occasionally use. It's far too much. This e-mail is the perfect example of such a 
come-ask-and-go-again scenario.


If I need to subscribe in order to post a question, I turn off mail delivery 
straight away.

Getting a digest with all e-mails does not help either. Replying to a single e-mail in this mode is cumbersome too. Besides, I do not want 
to manually skip other messages which do not interest me.


Other forum software has a nice feature for this scenario: If I post to a subject, I am automatically subscribed to that subject. I then get 
an e-mail for any new posts with the same subject.


The "topic" feature in Mailman is different. Very few people use it. I need 
something based on the e-mail subject.

Is there any way to achieve that with Mailman?

Thanks in advance,
  rdiez

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[Mailman-Users] incorrect spam labelling

[edi...@visionscience.com]

Not sure if this is a mailman issue, but…

Occasionally as moderator I see messages in which "***SPAM*** “ has been 
prepended to the subject line.
The messages are not spam.
I do not want to send them out to the list like that but cannot edit the 
subject line.
Is there anything I can do?

-Andrew

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Automatic subscription based on e-mail subject

[Christian F Buser via Mailman-Users]

Hello R. Diez via Mailman-Users. On Thu, 31 Jan 2019 11:11:48 +0100, you wrote:

> I have the following recurring problem with mailing lists all over 
> the Internet: people do reply to my posts, by they do not address or 
> copy me in their replies. They send their e-mails only to the mailing 
> list. Or they reply to the previous reply, and forget to copy the 
> original poster.

If I post a question to a list, I am also a subscriber to the list and I get 
replies to my question that way. 
 
> So I do not get a copy of the relevant messages straight away.

A mailing list may have a web archive, but the standard thing is that the 
conversation goes via e-mail. 

> I cannot subscribe to every mailing list I need to occasionally use. 
> It's far too much. This e-mail is the perfect example of such a 
> come-ask-and-go-again scenario.

So, to post to _this_ list, you had to subscribe to it. You may remain a 
subscriber until your question is answered. Where is the problem? 

> If I need to subscribe in order to post a question, I turn off mail 
> delivery straight away.

Aha. 

> Other forum software has a nice feature for this scenario: If I post 
> to a subject, I am automatically subscribed to that subject. I then 
> get an e-mail for any new posts with the same subject.

I think you are talking here about a web forum, where you can "subscribe" to 
information posted to a certain thread. I never saw this in a real mailing 
list. 

I Cc: this reply to you to make sure you see it - but I won’t do this for every 
message I write to any mailing list normally. 

Christian 

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Automatic subscription based on e-mail subject

[Mark Sapiro]

On 1/31/19 2:11 AM, R. Diez via Mailman-Users wrote:
> 
> Other forum software has a nice feature for this scenario: If I post to
> a subject, I am automatically subscribed to that subject. I then get an
> e-mail for any new posts with the same subject.
> 
> The "topic" feature in Mailman is different. Very few people use it. I
> need something based on the e-mail subject.
> 
> Is there any way to achieve that with Mailman?


Systers Mailman has a 'dlist' (dynamic sublists) feature which may be
what you want. This is mentioned at
.
That post is old and the repo at 
mentioned therein is also old, but it still exists although the
documentation links in the post and the README files in the repo are all
broken.

We have been looking at dlists or something similar for Mailman 3, and
Systers also has done Mailman 3 work (see ).

You may be able to port the changes from 
to more current Mailman, or perhaps contact Systers for more
information. It appears they are still using a Mailman 2.1.12 version
with their changes. I.e., see .

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Automatic subscription based on e-mail subject

[R. Diez via Mailman-Users]

> [...]

I think you are talking here about a web forum, where you can "subscribe"
to information posted to a certain thread. I never saw this in a real mailing 
list.

I Cc: this reply to you to make sure you see it - but I wonοΏ½t do this for
every message I write to any mailing list normally.

> [...]


This is a serious shortcoming in Mailman. I am surprised that such a basic 
human communication issue has not been properly addressed.

See here what kind of effect that can have. From the message below, a long 
discussion follows on this subject:

https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-users/2018-July/294510.html

I would like to specifically mention the following page, which accurate 
describes the problem:

http://david.woodhou.se/reply-to-list.html

All that would not be necessary if Mailman were smart enough. It already knows how to group e-mails by subject. It could make sure the participants 
are all kept in the loop.


Regards,
  rdiez
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Re: [Mailman-Users] incorrect spam labelling

[Terry Earley]

When a subject is not relevant to the body of the message or missing, the
moderator will re-post with a corrected subject. At the top of that
re-post, he includes the reason. That reminds other members to pay
attention to the subject field when posting.

Terry Earley



On Thu, Jan 31, 2019 at 10:16 AM edi...@visionscience.com <
edi...@visionscience.com> wrote:

> Not sure if this is a mailman issue, but…
>
> Occasionally as moderator I see messages in which "***SPAM*** “ has been
> prepended to the subject line.
> The messages are not spam.
> I do not want to send them out to the list like that but cannot edit the
> subject line.
> Is there anything I can do?
>
> -Andrew
>
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> https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/terry%40fiteyes.com
>
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Automatic subscription based on e-mail subject

[tlhackque via Mailman-Users]

On 31-Jan-19 05:11, R. Diez wrote:
> Hi all:
>
> I have the following recurring problem with mailing lists all over the
> Internet: people do reply to my posts, by they do not address or copy
> me in their replies. They send their e-mails only to the mailing list.
> Or they reply to the previous reply, and forget to copy the original
> poster.
>
> So I do not get a copy of the relevant messages straight away. If need
> to manually fish their answers from the web interface. If there is
> one. And then composing e-mails is cumbersome. And the subject
> threading no longer works properly.
>
> This problem has annoyed me (and other people on the Internet) for a
> long time.
>
> I cannot subscribe to every mailing list I need to occasionally use.
> It's far too much. This e-mail is the perfect example of such a
> come-ask-and-go-again scenario.
>
> If I need to subscribe in order to post a question, I turn off mail
> delivery straight away.
>
> Getting a digest with all e-mails does not help either. Replying to a
> single e-mail in this mode is cumbersome too. Besides, I do not want
> to manually skip other messages which do not interest me.
>
> Other forum software has a nice feature for this scenario: If I post
> to a subject, I am automatically subscribed to that subject. I then
> get an e-mail for any new posts with the same subject.
>
> The "topic" feature in Mailman is different. Very few people use it. I
> need something based on the e-mail subject.
>
> Is there any way to achieve that with Mailman?
>
> Thanks in advance,
>   rdiez
>
>
While I sympathize, I should also point out that this behavior goes
against the underlying philosophy of many mailing lists.

In that context, it is viewed as "selfish" to only ask for help while
never providing any.  If you don't read the list, you can't offer help
to others.  You don't have to be an 'expert' to be able to answer
questions, or to help an 'expert' to understand a novice's point of
view.  Communities are built from cooperation.

It should be up to a list owner to decide whether or not to enable a
feature that facilitates "take but don't give" behavior.  The list norms
should decide if "ask and run" or "ignore everyone else" is considered
anti-social/exploitive or acceptable use. 

In my experience, people paid to support a product might be happy with
the feature enabled, while a volunteer community might oppose it. 

Of course, today you can subscribe to the list and put a client-side
filter in your MUA that discards any post that doesn't reference your
post.  (By subject or "References" header.)  That doesn't require any
new support in Mailman.


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[Mailman-Users] incorrect spam labelling

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

edi...@visionscience.com writes:

 > Not sure if this is a mailman issue, but…

It's not, although possibly Mailman can help mitigate it.

 > Occasionally as moderator I see messages in which "***SPAM*** “ has
 > been prepended to the subject line.  The messages are not spam.  I
 > do not want to send them out to the list like that but cannot edit
 > the subject line.  Is there anything I can do?

Not with only moderator privileges.  Stock Mailman doesn't modify
messages in the moderation queue in that way.  So the spam label has
been attached by some other application, or by modifying Mailman to
call a spam checker.

You may be able to get some help from your mail administrator, who can
tune the spam checker to make fewer errors, or whitelist your
subscribers, or something along those lines.

If you can configure and add code to the Mailman system, it would be
possible to add code to remove the offending text from the Subject
automatically.  (You don't have to modify any of the stock Mailman
code, so in that sense this is "safe".)  There may be other
indications of "spamminess" that should be removed as well, hidden in
the header.

If you can configure/add code to Mailman and want help with the
programming, please send a copy of the header portion of such a post 
so we can see all of the the potential spamminess indicators.

Steve

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[Mailman-Users] Automatic subscription based on e-mail subject

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

R. Diez via Mailman-Users writes:

 > I have the following recurring problem with mailing lists all over
 > the Internet: people do reply to my posts, by they do not address
 > or copy me in their replies. They send their e-mails only to the
 > mailing list. Or they reply to the previous reply, and forget to
 > copy the original poster.

A mailing list may send mail to tens, thousands, or millions of
people.  If you have no connection to them, but post to the list for
your own benefit, that is called "spam".  It is generally considered
somewhere between rude and criminal.  At the very least you should
establish a minimal connection by subscribing.

 > This problem has annoyed me (and other people on the Internet) for
 > a long time.

It's not a problem with mailing lists; the kind of interaction you
desire is not what they're designed for.  That kind of interaction has
its place, but the software has to implement a "pull" model so that
nobody needs to make any effort to ignore everybody else.

 > Other forum software has a nice feature for this scenario: If I
 > post to a subject, I am automatically subscribed to that subject. I
 > then get an e-mail for any new posts with the same subject.

Mailman is not forum software.  Mailing lists support communities of
people, not question and answer threads.  If you want forum behavior,
use forum software, or in some applications you can use an issue
tracker.  If the community prefers mailing lists, they have a reason
for that, and you're out of luck: join the community and deal with the
mail, or look for replies in the archives.

 > Is there any way to achieve that with Mailman?

Not as a subscriber, no.  Mailing lists simply don't work that way,
because they're fundamentally based on a "push" model.  The only way
to get the behavior you want is to switch to forum or tracker
software based on a "pull" model.

It's possible that in a future version of Mailman 3 a feature called
"dynamic sublists" will be available, but it is dependent on the
poster taking special action to create the thread.  It doesn't allow
you to exclude all mail except the single thread you're interested in:
to get any posts you must subscribe, and then you'll see all thread
roots.  Of course, you can already have this with an appropriately
configured threading mail client, but dynamic sublists save bandwidth
and diskspace.

Again, if you want forum behavior, convince the community to use forum
software.

Steve

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Automatic subscription based on e-mail subject

[Keith Seyffarth]

> All that would not be necessary if Mailman were smart enough. It
> already knows how to group e-mails by subject. It could make sure the
> participants 
> are all kept in the loop.

Except then you run into ethical issues and possible legal violations of
emailing people who have not opted-n to receive the email. Just posting
to a web forum does not automatically subscribe you to a thread, you
have to check that you want notifications - and before you can even get
to that point, you have to create an account so you can post. And, as
has been pointed out previously in this discussion, there is a
difference between mailing lists and web forums or bulletin boards...


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Re: [Mailman-Users] incorrect spam labelling

[Mark Sapiro]

On 1/31/19 7:04 AM, edi...@visionscience.com wrote:
> Not sure if this is a mailman issue, but…
> 
> Occasionally as moderator I see messages in which "***SPAM*** “ has been 
> prepended to the subject line.
> The messages are not spam.
> I do not want to send them out to the list like that but cannot edit the 
> subject line.
> Is there anything I can do?


Yes, but it's cumbersome, particularly if you don't have good tools, but
here's a way.

In the admindb interface discard the held message, but also check the
'Forward messages (individually) to:' box and enter your own address, or
if you received an immediate notification of the held message that
includes the message, you can skip the forward.

Now, one way or the other, you have an email containing a copy of the
message. Save that email or open it in a way that you can view the raw
message. From that raw message, extract (edit out other parts or
copy/paste) the raw original message, and then edit that to 'fix' the
subject and also remove certain problem headers. For example, if the
Mailman server MTA is Postfix, you need to remove the 'Delivered-To:
' header or Postfix won't deliver this one to the list.

I typically remove the Return-Path:, X-Original-To: and Delivered-To:
headers from the top of the message.

Now you resend that message to the list. If you have a 'sendmail'
command on your workstation you can just do

sendmail -f listname-bounces@list.domain listname@list.domain < file

where 'file' contains the edited message. If you don't have 'sendmail',
some MUAs will allow you to open the message and resend or 'bounce' it
back to the list.

Also, there is a very old patch at
 which enables editing
the headers and message body directly in the admindb interface. If you
have the ability to patch Mailman, this may work for you. I have updated
the patch so it applies cleanly to current Mailman, but it is not tested.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Automatic subscription based on e-mail subject

[R. Diez via Mailman-Users]

> [...]

If you have no connection to them, but post to the list for
your own benefit, that is called "spam".  It is generally considered
somewhere between rude and criminal.

> [...]

Your comments are surprisingly unfair for someone in a mailing list for mailing 
list software.

Let's take me as an example. I do have a connection with you. I am a user of your software, on multiple mailing lists. And this particular mailing 
list is open for anybody. It's fine to drop by for a short while. I did not see anywhere any notice that only close affiliates are welcome. Heck, this 
mailing list is called "users", and not "developers" or "mailman clan only".


I asked about a way around a perceived limitation, and in the face of the answer, I contributed with reasoning and examples (a couple of links) about 
a missing feature and why it is important. You may not like my view. You may have a strong idea about how mailing list administrators should use your 
software. But am I spamming? Is this discussion not welcome here then?


Maybe you are implying that only people who read all posts for a few weeks and commit further resources to this project are entitled to voice their 
matters here. I find this a strange view on how to develop a community. It is rather off-putting.


Other projects have benefited from a bug report or a small patch I sent to 
their mailing lists. I was never actually subscribed to any of those.

If all this actually bugs you, maybe you can convince you community to make this mailing list private for proven contributors, and leave out those 
people who probably just want to benefit from your open-source project?


Regards,
  rdiez
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Re: [Mailman-Users] incorrect spam labelling

[Brian Carpenter]

> Not sure if this is a mailman issue, but…
> 
> Occasionally as moderator I see messages in which "***SPAM*** “ has been
> prepended to the subject line.
> The messages are not spam.
> I do not want to send them out to the list like that but cannot edit the 
> subject
> line.
> Is there anything I can do?
> 
> -Andrew

That is not Mailman. It is most likely coming from Spamassassin. Is your 
mailman list on a cPanel server?

Brian Carpenter
Owner

Now offering Mailman 3 list hosting!
https://mailman3host.com

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Automatic subscription based on e-mail subject

[Mark Sapiro]

On 1/31/19 12:05 PM, R. Diez via Mailman-Users wrote:
> 
> I asked about a way around a perceived limitation, and in the face of
> the answer, I contributed with reasoning and examples (a couple of
> links) about a missing feature and why it is important. You may not like
> my view. You may have a strong idea about how mailing list
> administrators should use your software. But am I spamming? Is this
> discussion not welcome here then?


I don't think anyone said you weren't entitled to post or that your post
was unwelcome.

People were responding to your desire to be able to post to a Mailman
list (any list, not just this one) and then receive all replies in that
thread and only that thread whether or not you were explicitly addressed.

Have you considered that you could subscribe for a while with delivery
enabled and then at your end filter out mail from the list that doesn't
match your subject or maybe doesn't contain References: to your post.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Automatic subscription based on e-mail subject

[Richard Damon]

On 1/31/19 12:58 PM, R. Diez via Mailman-Users wrote:
>
> > [...]
>> I think you are talking here about a web forum, where you can
>> "subscribe"
>> to information posted to a certain thread. I never saw this in a real
>> mailing list.
>>
>> I Cc: this reply to you to make sure you see it - but I wonοΏ½t do
>> this for
>> every message I write to any mailing list normally.
> > [...]
>
>
> This is a serious shortcoming in Mailman. I am surprised that such a
> basic human communication issue has not been properly addressed.
>
> See here what kind of effect that can have. From the message below, a
> long discussion follows on this subject:
>
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-users/2018-July/294510.html
>
> I would like to specifically mention the following page, which
> accurate describes the problem:
>
> http://david.woodhou.se/reply-to-list.html
>
> All that would not be necessary if Mailman were smart enough. It
> already knows how to group e-mails by subject. It could make sure the
> participants are all kept in the loop.
>
> Regards,
>   rdiez 

Mailman really CAN'T be smart enough, as email isn't that sort of media.
The reader of the message reads the message, and decides where to send
the reply to. THEY decide whether to copy you or not as an explicit
destination, and likely different people will choose different choices.
Mailman when it gets the message knows enough to be able to distribute
it to subscribers in their chosen way.

Email doesn't really have the concept of a 'Topic' like a forum, the
closest email has is the In-Reply-To and References headers, but if the
list is sort of busy (which would be the only real reason to want to
limit what you get from the list) then it is actually a lot of work to
track, as for every message the list would need to check for every
subscriber if they have 'followed' ANY of the messages that this message
is a reply to, and if so add this message to the list. The problem is
that while on a forum, all messages posted in a topic, will be connected
to THAT topic, an email message doesn't necessarily keep track of all
the messages, or even the original message that it is a reply to, by the
standard, it is supposed to at a minimum refer to the message it is a
direct reply, and possible some number or previous messages in the chain.

The sort by subject is a very different thing, as that doesn't need to
know about individual subscribers, and if the 'topic' gets broken
because someone edited the subject slightly it isn't an issue, as the
data is still all there, will if you tried to keep a list of subjects
that a subscriber was interested in, they won't get messages where some
small change was made in the subject. Small changes can sometimes happen
just by slightly mis-configured software, doing things like adding
additional re: prefixes

I will ask you how much you are willing to talk to a person who
basically interrupts, says they aren't really interested in the general
conversation, so isn't really listening, but if you go out of your way
to answer in a special way they will hear you. (Which is one way to
describe what you are doing),

-- 
Richard Damon

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