Re: [Mailman-Users] bulk subscribe 7K users

2017-10-02 Thread Dimitri Maziuk 

On 2017-10-01 22:23, Carl Zwanzig wrote:

On 9/29/2017 11:34 AM, Dimitri Maziuk wrote:

(mailman 2.1.12 on centos 6.9)


I don't think that Mark mentioned it, but 2.1.12 is -painfully- old (as 
is centos 6.9) and centos packages often lag way behind the 
corresponding source versions.


If you need to stick with 6.9, I would consider ditching the centos 
package and installing the current mailman from source. Otherwise, can 
you move to a more modern Linux and more recent mailman?


Mailman's been been trouble- and maintenance-free for us since we 
switched from whatever-that-perl-thing-was-called all those years ago, 
and it never occurred to me it'd something as silly as abort the running 
op because my browser timed out. Now that I know, I'll consider 
"upgrading" -- to the university-run lyris: I might as well outsource 
the whole thing.


Dima
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Re: [Mailman-Users] bulk subscribe 7K users

2017-10-02 Thread Dimitri Maziuk 

On 2017-10-01 17:50, Mark Sapiro wrote:

On October 1, 2017 3:34:29 PM PDT, Dimitri Maziuk  wrote:



So I don't get it, are you saying that is *was* aborted after the CGI
timed out?


Yes.


OK, thanks. Now I get to draft 3,500 apologies and then resubscribe 
everyone except the couple of people who replied with "please stop".


PS there is nothing except postfix, spamd, mailman, and apache serving 
mailman's interface running on this server. It' running at load avg of 
0.0 on 24 cores in 128GB of RAM. AFAICT the only reason for the software 
to croak on the list that size is its own coding.


Dima
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Re: [Mailman-Users] bulk subscribe 7K users

2017-10-02 Thread Julian H. Stacey 
Dimitri Maziuk wrote:
> On 2017-10-01 22:23, Carl Zwanzig wrote:
> > On 9/29/2017 11:34 AM, Dimitri Maziuk wrote:
> >> (mailman 2.1.12 on centos 6.9)
> > 
> > I don't think that Mark mentioned it, but 2.1.12 is -painfully- old (as 
> > is centos 6.9) and centos packages often lag way behind the 
> > corresponding source versions.
> > 
> > If you need to stick with 6.9, I would consider ditching the centos 
> > package and installing the current mailman from source. Otherwise, can 
> > you move to a more modern Linux and more recent mailman?
> 
> Mailman's been been trouble- and maintenance-free for us since we 
> switched from whatever-that-perl-thing-was-called all those years ago, 
> and it never occurred to me it'd something as silly as abort the running 
> op because my browser timed out.

Though the consequences of timeout were unfortunate, & Mailman would
benefit from patching, I wouldn't blame Mailman, as you first wrote:


> a few days ago I made a mistake (?) of uploading a list of ~7000
> addresses into the "bulk subscribe" box.

Just delete the question mark: Yes it Was a silly mistake !


> Now that I know, I'll consider 
> "upgrading" -- to the university-run lyris: I might as well outsource 
> the whole thing.

Better adopt the normal procedure for free source projects:
Write & submit patches to project, to fix your problem.

Cheers,
Julian
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Re: [Mailman-Users] bulk subscribe 7K users

2017-10-02 Thread Mark Sapiro 
On 10/02/2017 07:58 AM, Dimitri Maziuk wrote:
> 
> OK, thanks. Now I get to draft 3,500 apologies and then resubscribe
> everyone except the couple of people who replied with "please stop".


If you use Mailman's mass subscribe (with smaller chunks, say 1000) you
can add the apology to the new welcome message.


> PS there is nothing except postfix, spamd, mailman, and apache serving
> mailman's interface running on this server. It' running at load avg of
> 0.0 on 24 cores in 128GB of RAM. AFAICT the only reason for the software
> to croak on the list that size is its own coding.


You need to look in Mailman's 'smtp' log to see how much time is being
taken to deliver to postfix. One big killer in delivery from Mailman to
Postfix is recipient address validation at smtpd time. I.e., you don't
want reject_unknown_recipient_domain in smtpd_recipient_restrictions.
Also, you don't need spamd scanning of Mailman's outbound mail as list
posts will have been scanned on input.

Whatever the reason, you won't be able to run a viable list if it takes
days to deliver 3500 messages. Even an hour would be excessive.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] bulk subscribe 7K users

2017-10-02 Thread Carl Zwanzig 

On 10/2/2017 7:58 AM, Dimitri Maziuk wrote:
PS there is nothing except postfix, spamd, mailman, and apache serving 
mailman's interface running on this server. It' running at load avg of 0.0 
on 24 cores in 128GB of RAM. AFAICT the only reason for the software to 
croak on the list that size is its own coding.


While mailman routinely handles much larger lists (1), you seem to be very 
concerned about the size of a HTTP-based bulk add operation when there are 
other methods of adding that many recipients. Perhaps mailman does have a 
bug in the area, but there are many other potential factors that could slow 
things down or stop them completely (2).


It also sounds like there are other issues with the system, like postfix 
delivery times and the length of the CGI timeout.


If you're receiving "please stop" messages from users, maybe those users 
don't want to be on this list at all.


This all seems like making a mountain out of a molehill. If you've been 
satisfied with mailman, why not continue to be satisfied in all other areas 
and just not to large bulk adds via http? (My car is a great car but won't 
carry 500kg of cargo, so I don't ask it to.)


Later,

z!

(1) 
https://wiki.list.org/DOC/What%20is%20the%20largest%20list%20Mailman%20can%20run%3F)


(2) is the mailman installed on local disk or an NFS share? what the locking 
scheme? timeouts? etc

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Re: [Mailman-Users] bulk subscribe 7K users

2017-10-02 Thread Mark Sapiro 
On 10/02/2017 07:47 AM, Dimitri Maziuk wrote:
> 
> Mailman's been been trouble- and maintenance-free for us since we
> switched from whatever-that-perl-thing-was-called all those years ago,
> and it never occurred to me it'd something as silly as abort the running
> op because my browser timed out.


"all those years ago" and before, things like "real" databases,
checkpointing, recovery and rollback, and adding 7000 users at once to a
mailing list were not things we thought much about in a mailing list
manager. The fact that Mailman has "been been trouble- and
maintenance-free" for you for all those years is a tribute to the fact
that we got at least most of it right.

If you want a mailing list manager with a modern design, I'd recommend
Mailman 3.

And "abort the running op because my browser timed out" is not Mailman's
doing. That's your web server and its CGI interface.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] bulk subscribe 7K users

2017-10-02 Thread Dimitri Maziuk 
On 10/02/2017 01:10 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

> You need to look in Mailman's 'smtp' log to see how much time is being
> taken to deliver to postfix. 

Close to .1 s, with an occasional .12 on the date in question.

> One big killer in delivery from Mailman to
> Postfix is recipient address validation at smtpd time. I.e., you don't
> want reject_unknown_recipient_domain in smtpd_recipient_restrictions.

:) Well I do actually, this being our mail gateway, but I get the point.
The more reason to outsource this to out university's IT instead of
running it locally.

> Also, you don't need spamd scanning of Mailman's outbound mail as list
> posts will have been scanned on input.
> 
> Whatever the reason, you won't be able to run a viable list if it takes
> days to deliver 3500 messages. Even an hour would be excessive.

Of course it's not scanning outbound mail, but it is scanning the
incoming on delivery, using up cycles and i/o.

/var/log/mailman/smtp is interesting, actually:

> Sep 25 15:53:57 2017 (7782)  smtp to XXX 
> for 1 recips, completed in 0.081 seconds
...
> Sep 25 15:59:06 2017 (7782)  smtp to XXX 
> for 1 recips, completed in 0.061 seconds
> Sep 25 16:48:39 2017 (7782)  smtp to XXX 
> for 1 recips, completed in 0.065 seconds
> Sep 25 19:03:16 2017 (7782)  smtp to XXX 
> for 1 recips, completed in 0.079 seconds
> Sep 25 19:33:19 2017 (7782)  smtp to XXX 
> for 1 recips, completed in 0.069 seconds
> Sep 26 01:14:46 2017 (7782)  smtp to XXX 
> for 1 recips, completed in 0.062 seconds
> Sep 26 12:12:45 2017 (7782)  smtp to XXX 
> for 1 recips, completed in 0.060 seconds

There's 3200 of these lines total, so at .1s/address it should've ran in
320 seconds. Instead it ran for 6 minutes, then hours later a message or
two for a while, and nothing after Sep 26 12:12:45.

/var/log/mailman/subscribe goes

> Sep 25 15:51:56 2017 (29657) XXX: new aaa@ADDR, admin mass sub

to

> Sep 25 15:53:56 2017 (29657) XXX: new jjj@ADDR, admin mass sub

and ends there. To my uneducated eye it looks like smtp transactions
haven't even started until the subscription's gone about halfway through
and presumably aborted.

Anyway, this is getting academic. What I wanted to know was is it dead
or is it still doing something behind the scenes, and I got the answer.

Thanks everyone.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] bulk subscribe 7K users

2017-10-02 Thread Dimitri Maziuk 
On 10/02/2017 02:19 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

> And "abort the running op because my browser timed out" is not Mailman's
> doing. That's your web server and its CGI interface.

Oh, I agree: mailman worked exactly as designed. Whoever designed that
particular assumed it'll take zero time to process an uploaded list of
an unknown size, and that did precisely what ass-u-me always does. No
surprises there, unfortunately.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] bulk subscribe 7K users

2017-10-02 Thread Dimitri Maziuk 
On 10/02/2017 01:16 PM, Carl Zwanzig wrote:

> (My car is a great car
> but won't carry 500kg of cargo, so I don't ask it to.)

Well I bet your car comes with a manual that says what its max cargo
capacity is. Could you point me at The Fine Manual for mailman where it
says how many addresses I can subscribe through the web interface?

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Re: [Mailman-Users] bulk subscribe 7K users

2017-10-02 Thread Mark Sapiro 
On 10/02/2017 12:22 PM, Dimitri Maziuk wrote:
> 
>> One big killer in delivery from Mailman to
>> Postfix is recipient address validation at smtpd time. I.e., you don't
>> want reject_unknown_recipient_domain in smtpd_recipient_restrictions.
> 
> :) Well I do actually, this being our mail gateway, but I get the point.
> The more reason to outsource this to out university's IT instead of
> running it locally.


This is easily worked around. Define another "smtpd" service in
master.cf on an alternate port with an override for
smtpd_recipient_restrictions and use that port for Mailman delivery, but
that may not be needed anyway. See below.


> /var/log/mailman/smtp is interesting, actually:
> 
>> Sep 25 15:53:57 2017 (7782)  smtp to XXX 
>> for 1 recips, completed in 0.081 seconds
> ...
>> Sep 25 15:59:06 2017 (7782)  smtp to XXX 
>> for 1 recips, completed in 0.061 seconds

OK. So the bulk of the mail was delivered to Postfix in a bit over 5
minutes. That seem quite reasonable. I clearly misunderstood what you
ment when you said mail was still going out after days.


>> Sep 25 16:48:39 2017 (7782)  smtp to XXX 
>> for 1 recips, completed in 0.065 seconds
>> Sep 25 19:03:16 2017 (7782)  smtp to XXX 
>> for 1 recips, completed in 0.079 seconds
>> Sep 25 19:33:19 2017 (7782)  smtp to XXX 
>> for 1 recips, completed in 0.069 seconds
>> Sep 26 01:14:46 2017 (7782)  smtp to XXX 
>> for 1 recips, completed in 0.062 seconds
>> Sep 26 12:12:45 2017 (7782)  smtp to XXX 
>> for 1 recips, completed in 0.060 seconds


Some of these may be retries of temp fails from Postfix (anything in
smtp-failure?) and some may be unrelated.


> There's 3200 of these lines total, so at .1s/address it should've ran in
> 320 seconds. Instead it ran for 6 minutes,


Actually 5 minutes and 9 seconds or 309 seconds by the logs above.


> then hours later a message or
> two for a while, and nothing after Sep 26 12:12:45.
> 
> /var/log/mailman/subscribe goes
> 
>> Sep 25 15:51:56 2017 (29657) XXX: new aaa@ADDR, admin mass sub
> 
> to
> 
>> Sep 25 15:53:56 2017 (29657) XXX: new jjj@ADDR, admin mass sub
> 
> and ends there. To my uneducated eye it looks like smtp transactions
> haven't even started until the subscription's gone about halfway through
> and presumably aborted.


The welcome message is queued in Mailman's virgin queue and processed
asynchronously by VirginRunner which moves it to Mailman's out queue
where it is processes (again asynchronously by OutgoingRunner).


> Anyway, this is getting academic. What I wanted to know was is it dead
> or is it still doing something behind the scenes, and I got the answer.


Yes, it is 'academic' but a deeper understanding of the processes
involved can't hurt. I'm compulsive (often too much so) about answering
every outstanding question, even if they are only my own questions.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] bulk subscribe 7K users

2017-10-02 Thread tlhackque via Mailman-Users 
On 02-Oct-17 15:35, Dimitri Maziuk wrote:
> Oh, I agree: mailman worked exactly as designed. Whoever designed that
> particular assumed it'll take zero time to process an uploaded list of
> an unknown size, and that did precisely what ass-u-me always does. No
> surprises there, unfortunately.
No, the requirement was that you'd set the timeout on your webserver to
accommodate your environment.

The Mailman folks can't know what that is.  As the site administrator,
you are expected to.

E.g. for Apache, see the TimeOut directive, which is a balance between
preventing denial of service attacks, and letting long operations complete.

But if you want an (apparently) perfect hands-off experience, by all
means outsource to your IT department.  Then they'll be responsible for
the system-level analysis, implementation, and support.

If this is the case, I do not recommend Mailman V3.  Although it does
have an improved design, it still requires administration.  And despite
efforts by the developers, it is not yet as close to turnkey operation
as Mailman V2.1.  I'm sure it will be - eventually.  But it has a long
way to go.  Right now, it is more complex to setup, is missing features,
has no translations, and has more bugs.

From your comments on this thread, Mailman V3 will not (yet) meet your
expectations.


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Re: [Mailman-Users] bulk subscribe 7K users

2017-10-02 Thread Carl Zwanzig 

On 10/2/2017 12:37 PM, Dimitri Maziuk wrote:

Could you point me at The Fine Manual for mailman where it
says how many addresses I can subscribe through the web interface?


I can't (and as Mark mentioned, it's installation-dependent), but it would 
be helpful to others if you would add something to the wiki with your 
experiences and relevant config.


z!
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Re: [Mailman-Users] bulk subscribe 7K users

2017-10-02 Thread Dimitri Maziuk 
On 10/02/2017 02:50 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 10/02/2017 12:22 PM, Dimitri Maziuk wrote:
...
>>> Sep 25 15:53:57 2017 (7782)  smtp to 
>>> XXX for 1 recips, completed in 0.081 seconds
>> ...
>>> Sep 25 15:59:06 2017 (7782)  smtp to XXX 
>>> for 1 recips, completed in 0.061 seconds
> 
> OK. So the bulk of the mail was delivered to Postfix in a bit over 5
> minutes. That seem quite reasonable. I clearly misunderstood what you
> ment when you said mail was still going out after days.

Mea culpa, but that's why I had to ask here. Before you guys clued me in
on which mailman logs meant what, my best bet was looking at postfix
log. In there, however, you would see the messages deferred and being
retried by postfix. There's message to at least one of these addresses
still being retried (or was, back when I said "mail's still going out"),
but I couldn't tell when it came out of mailman without much backtracking.

> Some of these may be retries of temp fails from Postfix (anything in
> smtp-failure?) and some may be unrelated.

One failure logged in that time, to one of these addresses, and that's
only an invalid address that got past the regexp I used to clean up the
list.

> Yes, it is 'academic' but a deeper understanding of the processes
> involved can't hurt. I'm compulsive (often too much so) about answering
> every outstanding question, even if they are only my own questions.

:) I find I often don't wanna know.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] bulk subscribe 7K users

2017-10-02 Thread Dimitri Maziuk 
On 10/02/2017 02:54 PM, tlhackque via Mailman-Users wrote:
...
> From your comments on this thread, Mailman V3 will not (yet) meet your
> expectations.

Mailman 3 doesn't seem to be available from my distro vendor.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] bulk subscribe 7K users

2017-10-02 Thread Mark Sapiro 
On 10/02/2017 01:52 PM, Dimitri Maziuk wrote:
> On 10/02/2017 02:54 PM, tlhackque via Mailman-Users wrote:
> ...
>> From your comments on this thread, Mailman V3 will not (yet) meet your
>> expectations.
> 
> Mailman 3 doesn't seem to be available from my distro vendor.


That will change. I know Debian is currently working on packaging
Mailman 3, but have no info as to targets or timelines or other vendor's
downstream packages.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] "Bounce action notification" emails for subscribes/unsubscribes

2017-10-02 Thread Terry . 
Thanks for your replies Stephen & Mark, and sorry for the long delay in getting 
back to you.



Re Stephen's comment:

> I don't understand why you don't have this address in the first place.

> Mailman uses this address as envelope sender (and sometimes From) in

> order to accept failed delivery notifications (aka "bounces"), and so

> automatically disable delivery from Mailman to mailboxes disabled on

> the subscribed host (including non-existent addresses).  This should

> be configured in the MTA (mail server) along with all of the other

> Mailman-specific addresses.



I don’t understand why either.  Maybe the address is supposed to exist in Exim, 
and not be visible via cPanel's interface (e.g. under "Forwarders").  But it 
makes me wonder whether everything will work as designed with Mailman under the 
current version of cPanel (11.66.0.23).  If I create a new list (e.g. 
bugte...@mydomain.com, as I did today), the only 
forwarder that cPanel creates (and allows me to see) is: 
owner-bugte...@mydomain.com which forwards 
emails to bugtest3-ow...@mydomain.com.



If any emails actually get sent to 
mailman-boun...@mydomain.com, then I 
assume they'll end up in my catch...@mydomain.com 
mailbox, (whether I have the "Default Address" set to that catchall address, or 
I have a forwarder forwarding emails from 
mailman-boun...@mydomain.com to some 
mailbox), right???  I assume mailman isn't going to look in that catchall 
mailbox for anything, so do those emails still get processed because of what 
Mark said about Exim?



I received a couple of "Bounce action notification" emails this week, due to 
list members' mailboxes being over quota, and they seemed to come through to me 
OK.  They were sent from "MyListName [mailman-boun...@serverxyz.mywebhost.com] 
on behalf of mail...@somedomain.com" to 
mylistname-ow...@mydomain.com.

Is there anything else I can test to ensure all is working OK in regard to 
administrative addresses which mailman receives emails at?





Re Mark's comment:

> Yes. The bottom line here seems to be that things are now working as

> they should be, so the issue seems to be solved.



Well, before we break out the champagne...

I'm not sure I'd call it "solved", Mark.  I've got a couple of work-arounds 
(using a catch-all address or a forwarder) which I should not have had to 
perform, but this problem could be affecting thousands of people's lists (Jim 
Dory had one) which are managed via cPanel.  I'm considering asking the webhost 
to ask cPanel to provide a proper fix, so cPanel users don't need to 
individually discover the cause/work-around for this problem, then remember to 
perform that work-around each time they create a list.  Any comments on this, 
Mark or Stephen?



Thanks again.

Terry
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Re: [Mailman-Users] "Bounce action notification" emails for subscribes/unsubscribes

2017-10-02 Thread Mark Sapiro 
On 10/02/2017 05:37 PM, Terry . wrote:
> 
> I don’t understand why either.  Maybe the address is supposed to exist in 
> Exim, and not be visible via cPanel's interface (e.g. under "Forwarders").  
> But it makes me wonder whether everything will work as designed with Mailman 
> under the current version of cPanel (11.66.0.23).


cPanel's Mailman is a kludge. Many things don't work as a non-cPanel
Mailman user would expect.  This is a result of cPanel's patches that
allow lists of the same name in different domains to exist in a single
Mailman installation. This in turn is necessary for them to be able to
offer Mailman in more or less turnkey, multi-domain hosting environments
which in the long run has been good for Mailman by allowing hosting
services to offer Mailman to not highly sophisticated customers.

Unfortunately it has also led to a number of situations where Mailman is
available to a customer of a cPanel hosting service, whose admins have
no interest in supporting Mailman.

The most major change in cPanel is the list name. A list named mylist in
the example.com domain is really named mylist_example.com and a list
named mylist in the example.net domain is really named mylist_example.net.

This leads to confusion and some minor things like Sibling lists either
not working or requiring apparent list addresses like
mylist_example@example.com.

For the ordinary email case, the Exim Mailman router knows to deliver
mail to mylist(-*)@example.com to the mylist_example.com list and mail
to mylist(-*)@example.net to the mylist_example.net list.

However, this all breaks down with 'mail...@example.com' because there
is only one 'mailman' site list and its name is 'mailman', not
'mailman_example.com'.

Thus, since this used to work, something has changed in cPanel's Exim
config so that mail with envelope from mailman-boun...@example.com is no
longer deliverable because mailman-boun...@example.com is not a valid
address (mailman-boun...@the.canonical.host.domain might be).

However, I'm confused because I know there are a couple of cPanel
Mailman hosting services who's admins are on this list and are very
conscientious, and they don't seem to see this issue.


> If I create a new list (e.g. bugte...@mydomain.com, as I did today), the only 
> forwarder that cPanel creates (and allows me to see) is: 
> owner-bugte...@mydomain.com which forwards emails to 
> bugtest3-ow...@mydomain.com.


This "forwarder" is a kludge to allow mail to
owner-bugte...@mydomain.com to be delivered to the bugte...@mydomain.com
owner because someone at cPanel thinks that that address should work
that way even though Mailman itself only exposes
bugtest3-ow...@mydomain.com ad an owner address.

As I said, normal mail delivery to list addresses is handled by cPanel's
Mailman router, not by aliases or "forwarders"


> If any emails actually get sent to mailman-boun...@mydomain.com, then I 
> assume they'll end up in my catch...@mydomain.com mailbox, (whether I have 
> the "Default Address" set to that catchall address, or I have a forwarder 
> forwarding emails from mailman-boun...@mydomain.com to some mailbox), 
> right???  I assume mailman isn't going to look in that catchall mailbox for 
> anything, so do those emails still get processed because of what Mark said 
> about Exim?


I think all the above is correct. As far as Mailman processing those
bounces is concerned, they are normally just forwarded to the site list
owner. If they go to your catchall address instead, that's probably better.


> I received a couple of "Bounce action notification" emails this week, due to 
> list members' mailboxes being over quota, and they seemed to come through to 
> me OK.  They were sent from "MyListName 
> [mailman-boun...@serverxyz.mywebhost.com] on behalf of 
> mail...@somedomain.com" to mylistname-ow...@mydomain.com.
> 
> Is there anything else I can test to ensure all is working OK in regard to 
> administrative addresses which mailman receives emails at?


I'm sure the admin addresses for your lists work just fine. You can test
by sending mail to them. -bounces is problematic, but -owner should go
to the owner and -request, -confirm, -subscribe (-join), -unsubscribe
(-leave) should all send some kind of reply.

It's only 'mailman-bounces' (and other 'mailman' list addresses) that's
problematic.

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
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Re: [Mailman-Users] DKIM / DMARC woes...

2017-10-02 Thread Grant Taylor via Mailman-Users 

On 09/21/2017 03:23 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

The default behavior does nothing to DKIM related headers. This is from
Defaults.py


Is the REMOVE_DKIM_HEADERS option a per mailing list setting?  Or is it 
Mailman wide?


I'm looking through the list admin interface for Mailman 2.1.20 and not 
finding it.




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