Re: [lldb-dev] [cfe-dev] Mailing List Status Update

[Aaron Ballman via lldb-dev]

On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 5:41 PM James Y Knight via cfe-dev
 wrote:
>
> On Thu, Jun 3, 2021 at 6:19 PM James Y Knight  wrote:
>>
>> I've just tried out discourse for the first time. It is not clear to me how 
>> to use it to replace mailing lists. It has a setting "mailing list mode", 
>> which sounds like the right thing -- sending all messages via email. Except 
>> that option is global -- all messages in all categories on the llvm 
>> discourse instance. Which definitely isn't what I want at all. I don't want 
>> to subscribe to MLIR, for example.
>
>
> FWIW, it would seem that one secret trick here is to NOT check "mailing list 
> mode" -- that option is mostly there to confuse you, I guess.
>
>> In general, I'd say I'm pretty uncomfortable with switching from a mailing 
>> list to discourse. Discourse seems entirely reasonable to use for 
>> end-user-facing forums, but I'm rather unconvinced about its suitability as 
>> a dev-list replacement. Other communities (e.g. python) seem to have a 
>> split, still: mailing lists for dev-lists, and discourse for end-user-facing 
>> forums.
>>
>> I'd also note that Mailman3 provides a lot more features than what we're 
>> used to with mailman2, including the ability to interact/post through the 
>> website.
>>
>> Maybe someone can convince me that I'm just being a curmudgeon, but at this 
>> point, I'd say we ought to be investigating options to have Someone Else 
>> manage the mailman service, and keep using mailing lists, rather than 
>> attempting to switch to discourse.
>
>
> On that last point, I've gone ahead and asked the folks at osci.io ("Open 
> Source Community Infrastructure") if they'd be willing to host our mailing 
> lists. They are a group at RedHat whose mission is to support infrastructure 
> for open-source community projects, and they host mailman3 lists for a number 
> of other open-source groups, already (https://www.osci.io/tenants/). So, I 
> believe they have the necessary experience and expertise.
>
> They have said they indeed are willing and have the capacity to run this for 
> us as a service, if we'd like. We'd still need to be responsible for things 
> like list moderation, but they'd run the mailman installation on their 
> infrastructure. In my opinion, we ought to take this option, rather than 
> trying to push a migration to discourse.
>
> To me, it seems this would be a much clearer upgrade path, and would solve 
> the hosting/volunteer-admin issue -- including for commit lists -- giving the 
> current maintainers quicker relief from the undesired task of running the 
> list service. Additionally, since it would be a migration to Mailman3, we 
> would get many of the additional features mentioned as desirable, e.g. 
> searchable archives and posting from the website.

Thank you for checking into a mailman3 hosting option, I think this
approach would make me feel the most comfortable (far more comfortable
than switching to Discord).

~Aaron

>
>> On Tue, Jun 1, 2021 at 4:50 PM Tom Stellard via cfe-dev 
>>  wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> We recently[1] ran into some issues with the mailing lists that caused
>>> us to disable automatic approval of subscriptions.  Over the past few
>>> months, the LLVM Foundation Board of Directors have been investigating
>>> solutions to this issue and are recommending that the project move its
>>> discussion forum from mailman to Discourse[2].
>>>
>>> The proposed migration plan is to move the discussion lists (e.g *-dev,
>>> *-users lists) to Discourse as soon as possible.  The commit email lists
>>> (*-commits lists) will remain on mailman until a not-yet-determined date
>>> in the future, after which they will be replaced by something else.
>>> Some commit lists alternatives include Discourse and GitHub commit
>>> comments (but there may be others).
>>>
>>> Here are the reasons why the LLVM Foundation Board of Directors is
>>> recommending this change:
>>>
>>> - The LLVM project discussion lists cannot be adequately maintained by our
>>>current volunteer infrastructure staff and without changes we run the
>>>risk of a major outage.
>>>
>>> - We are able to make this change without significant impact to user's or
>>>developer's daily workflows because Discourse supports email 
>>> subscriptions
>>>and posting (NOTE: if you are concerned that your workflow may be 
>>> impacted
>>>by this change, please contact the Infrastructure Working Group[3], so
>>>they can help test your workflow with Discourse.)
>>>
>>> - Discourse gives us additional features that will benefit the community:
>>>- Easy to signup and subscribe to categories
>>>- Better moderation tools.
>>>- Web-based user interface.
>>>- Ability to send announcements to multiple categories to avoid having to
>>>  cross-post community wide announcements.
>>>
>>> - A subset of the community (MLIR) have been experimenting with Discourse
>>>for over a year and are able to provide feedback about this

Re: [lldb-dev] [llvm-dev] [cfe-dev] Mailing List Status Update

[David Blaikie via lldb-dev]

On Tue, Jun 15, 2021 at 7:40 AM Matt P. Dziubinski via llvm-dev <
llvm-...@lists.llvm.org> wrote:

> On 6/15/2021 12:58, Aaron Ballman via llvm-dev wrote:
> > On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 5:41 PM James Y Knight via cfe-dev
> >  wrote:
> >>
> >> On Thu, Jun 3, 2021 at 6:19 PM James Y Knight 
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I've just tried out discourse for the first time. It is not clear to
> me how to use it to replace mailing lists. It has a setting "mailing list
> mode", which sounds like the right thing -- sending all messages via email.
> Except that option is global -- all messages in all categories on the llvm
> discourse instance. Which definitely isn't what I want at all. I don't want
> to subscribe to MLIR, for example.
> >>
> >>
> >> FWIW, it would seem that one secret trick here is to NOT check "mailing
> list mode" -- that option is mostly there to confuse you, I guess.
> >>
> >>> In general, I'd say I'm pretty uncomfortable with switching from a
> mailing list to discourse. Discourse seems entirely reasonable to use for
> end-user-facing forums, but I'm rather unconvinced about its suitability as
> a dev-list replacement. Other communities (e.g. python) seem to have a
> split, still: mailing lists for dev-lists, and discourse for
> end-user-facing forums.
> >>>
> >>> I'd also note that Mailman3 provides a lot more features than what
> we're used to with mailman2, including the ability to interact/post through
> the website.
> >>>
> >>> Maybe someone can convince me that I'm just being a curmudgeon, but at
> this point, I'd say we ought to be investigating options to have Someone
> Else manage the mailman service, and keep using mailing lists, rather than
> attempting to switch to discourse.
> >>
> >>
> >> On that last point, I've gone ahead and asked the folks at osci.io
> ("Open Source Community Infrastructure") if they'd be willing to host our
> mailing lists. They are a group at RedHat whose mission is to support
> infrastructure for open-source community projects, and they host mailman3
> lists for a number of other open-source groups, already (
> https://www.osci.io/tenants/). So, I believe they have the necessary
> experience and expertise.
> >>
> >> They have said they indeed are willing and have the capacity to run
> this for us as a service, if we'd like. We'd still need to be responsible
> for things like list moderation, but they'd run the mailman installation on
> their infrastructure. In my opinion, we ought to take this option, rather
> than trying to push a migration to discourse.
> >>
> >> To me, it seems this would be a much clearer upgrade path, and would
> solve the hosting/volunteer-admin issue -- including for commit lists --
> giving the current maintainers quicker relief from the undesired task of
> running the list service. Additionally, since it would be a migration to
> Mailman3, we would get many of the additional features mentioned as
> desirable, e.g. searchable archives and posting from the website.
> >
> > Thank you for checking into a mailman3 hosting option, I think this
> > approach would make me feel the most comfortable (far more comfortable
> > than switching to Discord).
>
> I also find Mailman 3 friendlier than Discourse from the UX point of view.
>
> Currently Discourse doesn't directly support standard search
> functionality in web browsers,


Could you describe what's missing/not working in more detail? At least I
can use my browser (Chrome)'s search functionality to find words in both
the pages linked below.


> requiring workarounds like using the
> print preview: Compare
> https://meta.discourse.org/t/disabling-unload-on-scroll/173975 and
> https://meta.discourse.org/t/disabling-unload-on-scroll/173975/print
>
> Looking at python-dev Mailman 3 interface doesn't seem to suffer from
> this issue:
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-...@python.org/
>
> Best,
> Matt
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Re: [lldb-dev] [llvm-dev] [cfe-dev] Mailing List Status Update

[David Blaikie via lldb-dev]

On Tue, Jun 15, 2021 at 9:50 AM Matt P. Dziubinski  wrote:

> On 6/15/2021 18:29, David Blaikie wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 15, 2021 at 7:40 AM Matt P. Dziubinski via llvm-dev
> > mailto:llvm-...@lists.llvm.org>> wrote:
> >
> > On 6/15/2021 12:58, Aaron Ballman via llvm-dev wrote:
> >  > On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 5:41 PM James Y Knight via cfe-dev
> >  > mailto:cfe-...@lists.llvm.org>> wrote:
> >  >>
> >  >> On Thu, Jun 3, 2021 at 6:19 PM James Y Knight
> > mailto:jykni...@google.com>> wrote:
> >  >>>
> >  >>> I've just tried out discourse for the first time. It is not
> > clear to me how to use it to replace mailing lists. It has a setting
> > "mailing list mode", which sounds like the right thing -- sending
> > all messages via email. Except that option is global -- all messages
> > in all categories on the llvm discourse instance. Which definitely
> > isn't what I want at all. I don't want to subscribe to MLIR, for
> > example.
> >  >>
> >  >>
> >  >> FWIW, it would seem that one secret trick here is to NOT check
> > "mailing list mode" -- that option is mostly there to confuse you, I
> > guess.
> >  >>
> >  >>> In general, I'd say I'm pretty uncomfortable with switching
> > from a mailing list to discourse. Discourse seems entirely
> > reasonable to use for end-user-facing forums, but I'm rather
> > unconvinced about its suitability as a dev-list replacement. Other
> > communities (e.g. python) seem to have a split, still: mailing lists
> > for dev-lists, and discourse for end-user-facing forums.
> >  >>>
> >  >>> I'd also note that Mailman3 provides a lot more features than
> > what we're used to with mailman2, including the ability to
> > interact/post through the website.
> >  >>>
> >  >>> Maybe someone can convince me that I'm just being a curmudgeon,
> > but at this point, I'd say we ought to be investigating options to
> > have Someone Else manage the mailman service, and keep using mailing
> > lists, rather than attempting to switch to discourse.
> >  >>
> >  >>
> >  >> On that last point, I've gone ahead and asked the folks at
> > osci.io  ("Open Source Community Infrastructure") if
> > they'd be willing to host our mailing lists. They are a group at
> > RedHat whose mission is to support infrastructure for open-source
> > community projects, and they host mailman3 lists for a number of
> > other open-source groups, already (https://www.osci.io/tenants/
> > ). So, I believe they have the
> > necessary experience and expertise.
> >  >>
> >  >> They have said they indeed are willing and have the capacity to
> > run this for us as a service, if we'd like. We'd still need to be
> > responsible for things like list moderation, but they'd run the
> > mailman installation on their infrastructure. In my opinion, we
> > ought to take this option, rather than trying to push a migration to
> > discourse.
> >  >>
> >  >> To me, it seems this would be a much clearer upgrade path, and
> > would solve the hosting/volunteer-admin issue -- including for
> > commit lists -- giving the current maintainers quicker relief from
> > the undesired task of running the list service. Additionally, since
> > it would be a migration to Mailman3, we would get many of the
> > additional features mentioned as desirable, e.g. searchable archives
> > and posting from the website.
> >  >
> >  > Thank you for checking into a mailman3 hosting option, I think
> this
> >  > approach would make me feel the most comfortable (far more
> > comfortable
> >  > than switching to Discord).
> >
> > I also find Mailman 3 friendlier than Discourse from the UX point of
> > view.
> >
> > Currently Discourse doesn't directly support standard search
> > functionality in web browsers,
> >
> >
> > Could you describe what's missing/not working in more detail? At least I
> > can use my browser (Chrome)'s search functionality to find words in both
> > the pages linked below.
>
>
> Sure! It may be easier to notice in a longer thread: Compare the
> following two views--searching for D104227 using the built-in search in
> a web browser initially finds 0 occurrences in the first one (at the
> same time it works fine in the print preview and finds 1 occurrence in
> the penultimate comment, at least at the moment of writing):
>
> https://llvm.discourse.group/t/rfc-introduce-alloca-scope-op/2940
>
> https://llvm.discourse.group/t/rfc-introduce-alloca-scope-op/2940/print


Ah, yep, that demonstrates the issue but for some reason the previous links
didn't (maybe because the previous linked thread was all on one page for me)


>
>
> The issue is related to the unload-on-scroll behavior of Discourse: When
> you open a page on https://llvm.discour

Re: [lldb-dev] [llvm-dev] [cfe-dev] Mailing List Status Update

[Philip Reames via lldb-dev]

On 6/15/21 11:15 AM, Matt P. Dziubinski via llvm-dev wrote:

On 6/15/2021 19:41, David Blaikie wrote:

    When
    you open a page on https://llvm.discourse.group
     it doesn't load (or
    show) the entire thread on one page by default but instead
    progressively
    loads (and unloads) partial content as you scroll along.

Ah, yeah - which is why it hijacks the search shortcut to do a web 
form search rather than the browser builtin. Seems to work OK - I 
wouldn't count this as a major usability problem, at least for me.


Fair enough, there's always an element of subjectivity to UX, so YMMV. 
At the same time one issue with the aforementioned hijacking is that 
is not complete, either--e.g., it doesn't support built-in search 
features like "Find Next" or "Find Previous". For users used to 
keyboard navigation this is a usability problem (especially in 
development-oriented discussions, when searching for occurrences of 
identifiers in, say, LLVM IR does come in handy).


I want to highlight the accessibility point here.  I have fairly poor 
vision, and regularly consume content in modes which someone with 
perfect vision might not.  The ability to blow things up, search easily 
within a page, and otherwise consume content in a customizable manner 
*matters* to me.  I emphasize this because I feel the point often gets 
lost in tooling discussions.





    There's no such restriction in the Mailman web UI since it 
displays the

    entire thread on one page by default, even for longer threads, e.g.,
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-...@python.org/thread/JM6SQ2YNMDAKXYD5O54QWMVR2X7QOXVL/

    Loading the complete thread (displaying all messages) allows the
    built-in search to work without issues.

Great to see too - especially to see that it addresses an issue 
that's always pained me about our current mailman setup, where 
threads get split by week or month - so there's no nice way to link 
to a whole thread. I'll be happy to see that addressed in either/any 
way.


Agreed, I also see this as an improvement.

Best,
Matt
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