[gentoo-user] Re: Xorg dropping keyboard events

[Moshe Kamensky]

* Crístian Viana  [17/08/09 00:24]:
> once I had a problem like this, and I solved it by adding the following
> section to xorg.conf:
> 
> Section "ServerFlags"
>Option "AllowEmptyInput""false"
> EndSection
> 
> it happened earlier this year when I upgraded x11-base/xorg-x11.


Thanks, I tried that, but it didn't help...

> 
> -- 
> Crístian Deives dos Santos Viana [aka CD1]
> Sent from Campinas, SP, Brazil


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Re: [gentoo-user] Finer grained kde*-meta packages

[Alex Schuster]

On 2007-06-15, Dale wrote:

> Peter Ruskin wrote:
> > With big hard discs cheap and with ADSL
> > connection, the advantages of the meta packages are diminished.
>
> If I understand your meaning correctly, not everyone can get broadband.
> I'm on dial-up and it is all that is available here where I live.  DSL
> may be here soon but not yet.

How true, how true.

Wonko

Re: [gentoo-user] Problem with pppd-added routes

[Walter Dnes]

  I have things set up to allow me to connect to dialup, and still keep
connections going to my other machine ("LAN" = 2 machines).  I think this
is similar to your situation.  The key is in my /etc/conf.d/net file as
per the following excerpt...


routes_eth0=(
"default via 192.168.123.254 metric 2 mss 1454"
"192.168.123.248/29 via 192.168.123.254 metric 0"
)

  My home machine is 192.168.123.250 on my "LAN", my hot-backup is
192.168.123.251, and the ADSL-modem-cum-router is 192.168.123.254.  Note
the 2 statements.  The default connection to the world is "metric 2",
while the connection to the LAN is given "metric 0".  The ppp0
connection, when active, has priority over the default connection, but
not over the LAN connection.  So I don't have to tear down the eth0
connection when dialing up, and re-start it after disconnecting from
dialup.

  If I wanted to get really fancy, I could assign separate "metric 0"
routes for streaming video or audio sites, where dialup won't hack it.
This would allow me to listen to internet radio on ADSL, while
simultaneously downloading updates/email/usenet over dialup, or even
surfing the web on dialup.

  Why bother, you ask?  Bell Canada will soon be be ramming
billing-by-the-byte on all its users and its resellers' users.  The only
"alternative" in Toronto is Rogers Cable, and they're not attractive
either.  I intend to divert update/email/usenet downloads to dialup.
This will apply to any files where I don't care if it's an overnight
download.

  This would also be a great idea for usability testing for some web
developers, to see how piggy their Schlockwave-Trash websites are on
dialup.

-- 
Walter Dnes 

Re: [gentoo-user] Problem with pppd-added routes

[Mike Kazantsev]

On Tue, 18 Aug 2009 07:55:13 -0400
"Walter Dnes"  wrote:

>   I have things set up to allow me to connect to dialup, and still keep
> connections going to my other machine ("LAN" = 2 machines).  I think this
> is similar to your situation.  The key is in my /etc/conf.d/net file as
> per the following excerpt...
> 
> 
> routes_eth0=(
> "default via 192.168.123.254 metric 2 mss 1454"
> "192.168.123.248/29 via 192.168.123.254 metric 0"
> )
> 
>   My home machine is 192.168.123.250 on my "LAN", my hot-backup is
> 192.168.123.251, and the ADSL-modem-cum-router is 192.168.123.254.  Note
> the 2 statements.  The default connection to the world is "metric 2",
> while the connection to the LAN is given "metric 0".  The ppp0
> connection, when active, has priority over the default connection, but
> not over the LAN connection.  So I don't have to tear down the eth0
> connection when dialing up, and re-start it after disconnecting from
> dialup.

Thanks for the solution.

Guess I'll settle for similar scheme for now, adding all the gateway IPs
to the routing table via preup() function, parsing output of dig with
awk.

Still, overriding garbage route like that is a hack and it should be
easy to write a patch for that behavior, when I'll have some spare time,
provided I won't forget about the issue... ;)

-- 
Mike Kazantsev // fraggod.net


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[gentoo-user] www-apps/mediawiki-1.14.1 Circular Dependencies with Math Use Flag

[Ryan Holt]

Hello,

 

I'm getting dependencies issues with mediawiki when trying to install with
the math use flag:

 

oscar ~ # emerge -pv mediawiki

 

These are the packages that would be merged, in order:

 

Calculating dependencies... done!

[ebuild  N] dev-lang/ocaml-3.10.2  USE="gdbm ncurses ocamlopt -X -emacs
-latex -tk -xemacs" 2,232 kB

[ebuild  N] dev-libs/zziplib-0.13.49-r1  USE="-sdl -test" 640 kB

[ebuild  N] media-libs/openjpeg-1.3-r2  USE="-tools" 982 kB

[ebuild  N] app-text/poppler-data-0.2.1  3,973 kB

[ebuild  N] dev-lang/lua-5.1.4  USE="deprecated readline -static" 212 kB

[ebuild  N] dev-libs/poppler-0.10.7  USE="abiword poppler-data" 1,496 kB

[ebuild  N] virtual/poppler-0.10.7  0 kB

[ebuild  N] app-text/texlive-core-2008-r5  USE="-X -doc -source -tk"
23,278 kB

[ebuild  N] virtual/tex-base-0  0 kB

[ebuild  N] dev-texlive/texlive-documentation-base-2008  USE="-source"
745 kB

[ebuild  N] dev-texlive/texlive-basic-2008  USE="-doc -source" 3,739 kB

[ebuild  N] dev-tex/mplib-1.110  USE="lua" 1,522 kB

[ebuild  N] dev-tex/luatex-0.30.3  USE="-doc" 6,724 kB

[ebuild  N] dev-texlive/texlive-latex-2008-r1  USE="-doc -source" 952 kB

[ebuild  N] dev-texlive/texlive-genericrecommended-2008  USE="-doc
-source" 202 kB

[ebuild  N] dev-texlive/texlive-texinfo-2008  USE="-doc -source" 77 kB

[ebuild  N] dev-texlive/texlive-latexrecommended-2008-r2  USE="-doc
-source" 971 kB

[ebuild  N] virtual/texi2dvi-0  0 kB

[ebuild  N] app-text/dvipng-1.12  USE="-test -truetype" 165 kB

[ebuild  N] www-apps/mediawiki-1.14.1  USE="imagemagick math mysql
ocamlopt vhosts -postgres" 10,117 kB

[blocks B ] dev-texlive/texlive-latexrecommended
("dev-texlive/texlive-latexrecommended" is blocking
dev-tex/latex-unicode-20041017)

 

Total: 20 packages (20 new), Size of downloads: 58,018 kB

Conflict: 1 block (1 unsatisfied)

oscar ~ #

 

Any work around?

 

 

Re: [gentoo-user] www-apps/mediawiki-1.14.1 Circular Dependencies with Math Use Flag

[Paul Hartman]

On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 12:14 PM, Ryan Holt wrote:
> dev-tex/latex-unicode

Perhaps try to unmerge that and try again

Re: [gentoo-user] www-apps/mediawiki-1.14.1 Circular Dependencies with Math Use Flag

[Alan McKinnon]

On Tuesday 18 August 2009 19:14:42 Ryan Holt wrote:
> Hello,
>
>
>
> I'm getting dependencies issues with mediawiki when trying to install with
> the math use flag:
>
>
>
> oscar ~ # emerge -pv mediawiki
>
>
>
> These are the packages that would be merged, in order:
>
>
>
> Calculating dependencies... done!
>
> [ebuild  N] dev-lang/ocaml-3.10.2  USE="gdbm ncurses ocamlopt -X -emacs
> -latex -tk -xemacs" 2,232 kB
>
> [ebuild  N] dev-libs/zziplib-0.13.49-r1  USE="-sdl -test" 640 kB
>
> [ebuild  N] media-libs/openjpeg-1.3-r2  USE="-tools" 982 kB
>
> [ebuild  N] app-text/poppler-data-0.2.1  3,973 kB
>
> [ebuild  N] dev-lang/lua-5.1.4  USE="deprecated readline -static" 212
> kB
>
> [ebuild  N] dev-libs/poppler-0.10.7  USE="abiword poppler-data" 1,496
> kB
>
> [ebuild  N] virtual/poppler-0.10.7  0 kB
>
> [ebuild  N] app-text/texlive-core-2008-r5  USE="-X -doc -source -tk"
> 23,278 kB
>
> [ebuild  N] virtual/tex-base-0  0 kB
>
> [ebuild  N] dev-texlive/texlive-documentation-base-2008  USE="-source"
> 745 kB
>
> [ebuild  N] dev-texlive/texlive-basic-2008  USE="-doc -source" 3,739 kB
>
> [ebuild  N] dev-tex/mplib-1.110  USE="lua" 1,522 kB
>
> [ebuild  N] dev-tex/luatex-0.30.3  USE="-doc" 6,724 kB
>
> [ebuild  N] dev-texlive/texlive-latex-2008-r1  USE="-doc -source" 952
> kB
>
> [ebuild  N] dev-texlive/texlive-genericrecommended-2008  USE="-doc
> -source" 202 kB
>
> [ebuild  N] dev-texlive/texlive-texinfo-2008  USE="-doc -source" 77 kB
>
> [ebuild  N] dev-texlive/texlive-latexrecommended-2008-r2  USE="-doc
> -source" 971 kB
>
> [ebuild  N] virtual/texi2dvi-0  0 kB
>
> [ebuild  N] app-text/dvipng-1.12  USE="-test -truetype" 165 kB
>
> [ebuild  N] www-apps/mediawiki-1.14.1  USE="imagemagick math mysql
> ocamlopt vhosts -postgres" 10,117 kB
>
> [blocks B ] dev-texlive/texlive-latexrecommended
> ("dev-texlive/texlive-latexrecommended" is blocking
> dev-tex/latex-unicode-20041017)
>
>
>
> Total: 20 packages (20 new), Size of downloads: 58,018 kB
>
> Conflict: 1 block (1 unsatisfied)
>
> oscar ~ #
>
>
>
> Any work around?

You appear to have latex-unicode installed which blocks the texlive packages.

Unmerge latex-unicode and try again.

-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

RE: [gentoo-user] www-apps/mediawiki-1.14.1 Circular Dependencies with Math Use Flag

[Ryan Holt]

Awesome. Thanks for the help... That did it.

-Original Message-
From: paul.hart...@gmail.com [mailto:paul.hart...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of
Paul Hartman
Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 1:22 PM
To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] www-apps/mediawiki-1.14.1 Circular Dependencies
with Math Use Flag

On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 12:14 PM, Ryan Holt wrote:
> dev-tex/latex-unicode

Perhaps try to unmerge that and try again

Re: [gentoo-user] emerge mythtv fails... again

[Alex Schuster]

I wrote:

> Shawn Haggett writes:
> > Some recent updates have broken my mythtv (missing libraries) so I'm of
> > course trying to recompile it. Whenever I try however, the following
> > happens:
> >
> > sgc ~ # emerge -va mythtv
>
> [...]
>
> > /var/tmp/portage/media-tv/mythtv-0.21_p18314-r1/temp/environment: line
> > 3924: cd:
> > /var/tmp/portage/media-tv/mythtv-0.21_p18314-r1/work/branches/release-0
> >-2 1-fixes/mythtv: No such file or directory
> > sed: can't read
> > /var/tmp/portage/media-tv/mythtv-0.21_p18314-r1/work/branches/release-0
> >-2 1-fixes/mythtv/version.pro: No such file or directory
>
[...]
> I just had the same problem with a fresh install of mythtv. I tried other
> versions, 0.21_p19961-r2 showed the same problem, but 0.21_p20877 did
> compile. So give that one a try.

Now python-updater wants to rebuild mythtv, and fails to do so because of 
the missing version.pro. Same version which built before. The ebuild's date 
is from july 20th, some days before I emerged it, so there was no silent 
change.

Strange. But for the moment I don't care, no time yet to play with mythtv.

BTW, the expected .../work/mythtv-0.21_p20877/version.pro can be found in 
.../work/branches/release-0-21-fixes/mythtv/version.pro.

Wonko

Re: [gentoo-user] emerge mythtv fails... again

[Mark Knecht]

On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 12:55 PM, Alex Schuster wrote:
> I wrote:
>
>> Shawn Haggett writes:
>> > Some recent updates have broken my mythtv (missing libraries) so I'm of
>> > course trying to recompile it. Whenever I try however, the following
>> > happens:
>> >
>> > sgc ~ # emerge -va mythtv
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> > /var/tmp/portage/media-tv/mythtv-0.21_p18314-r1/temp/environment: line
>> > 3924: cd:
>> > /var/tmp/portage/media-tv/mythtv-0.21_p18314-r1/work/branches/release-0
>> >-2 1-fixes/mythtv: No such file or directory
>> > sed: can't read
>> > /var/tmp/portage/media-tv/mythtv-0.21_p18314-r1/work/branches/release-0
>> >-2 1-fixes/mythtv/version.pro: No such file or directory
>>
> [...]
>> I just had the same problem with a fresh install of mythtv. I tried other
>> versions, 0.21_p19961-r2 showed the same problem, but 0.21_p20877 did
>> compile. So give that one a try.
>
> Now python-updater wants to rebuild mythtv, and fails to do so because of
> the missing version.pro. Same version which built before. The ebuild's date
> is from july 20th, some days before I emerged it, so there was no silent
> change.
>
> Strange. But for the moment I don't care, no time yet to play with mythtv.
>
> BTW, the expected .../work/mythtv-0.21_p20877/version.pro can be found in
> .../work/branches/release-0-21-fixes/mythtv/version.pro.
>
>        Wonko
>
>

I've been dealing with this failure for a couple of weeks now. Nothing
new released to address it yet even though it seems there might be
some sort of a fix pending, or even possibly released (as per the last
couple of entries) but for me p20877 still doesn't build:

http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=280516

- Mark

[gentoo-user] IPCHAINS or other alternative firewalls or packet-filters?

[Walter Dnes]

  IPCHAINS did the firewall job for me.  Early versions of IPTABLES were
OK too.  But it eventually developed the Mozilla disease, and became a
honking big routing/gatewaying/QOSing/singing/dancing monstrosity, of
which I required only a small fraction of its "functionality".  And I'm
really confused as to which parts in netfilter/xtables/iptables I need
to build into the kernel.

  I need a firewall (or even just a packet-filter) that will operate
with current Gentoo kernels, nothing more.  I see a build for IPCHAINS.
Does it work with 2.6.29 and higher kernels?  Are there other
alternatives in alternate overlays?  I'm not a programmer, but I can
expand a tarball and...

./configure --with-various-options && make && make install

...if necessary.

-- 
Walter Dnes 

Re: [gentoo-user] IPCHAINS or other alternative firewalls or packet-filters?

[Alan McKinnon]

On Wednesday 19 August 2009 00:11:36 Walter Dnes wrote:
>   IPCHAINS did the firewall job for me.  Early versions of IPTABLES were
> OK too.  But it eventually developed the Mozilla disease, and became a
> honking big routing/gatewaying/QOSing/singing/dancing monstrosity, of
> which I required only a small fraction of its "functionality".  And I'm
> really confused as to which parts in netfilter/xtables/iptables I need
> to build into the kernel.

netfilter is the kernel sub-system that does packet filtering.
iptables is a user-space app that adds and deletes rules to netfilter.
I have no idea what xtables is

>   I need a firewall (or even just a packet-filter) that will operate
> with current Gentoo kernels, nothing more.  I see a build for IPCHAINS.
> Does it work with 2.6.29 and higher kernels?

No. ipchains does not work with 2.6 at all, or even with 2.4. I suppose you 
could coerce it, but it's easier to just learn iptables. iptables is also 
conceptually simpler and much easier to understand.

menuconfig is really simply laid out with regard to netfilter. The initial 
selection that opens up is all you need, so select the lot.

You will only need the mangle stuff is you plan on fiddling packets as they 
pass through the kernel; you'll only need conntrack if you plan to build a 
stateful firewall (a good idea, actually) and you might want NAT as well.


> Are there other
> alternatives in alternate overlays?  I'm not a programmer, but I can
> expand a tarball and...

There are two ways to build a packet filter, one good one bad
:
in-kernel: this makes sense as it's where the packets are. netfilter does 
this, you *could* replace it, but you will simply rip it out and replace it 
with something similar.

user-space: now this is a stupid idea. Every packet moves out of kernel space 
into userspace and back into kernel space. Yuck, all that context switching.

iptables really really is what you want. Google for "Rusty Russell's 
Unreliable Guide to iptables", he's the head dev and that document contains 
just about everything you need for basic firewall needs.

If you want a front-end, I like shorewall. There are hundreds of others and 
they come with their own built in flamewar about which is best. Most are 
simply front ends to iptables.

The best and most ultimate OSS packet filter in the whole wide world is 
without a doubt ipfw. But that's FreeBSD - not likely much use to you :-)

-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: I lost the ability to boot into single user

[Dan Farrell]

On Tue, 18 Aug 2009 04:27:57 +0300
Nikos Chantziaras  wrote:

> On 08/18/2009 02:00 AM, Dale wrote:
> > I agree, this should be reported so it can be fixed.  While
> > init-/bin/bash would work, it shouldn't be the only option.
> 
> I filed a bug for it: http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=281850
> 
> 

In a pinch, you can also use the argument init=/bin/bash to get a
bash shell up without using init.  It's saved me a CD or a heap of
trouble a few times.  

Re: [gentoo-user] IPCHAINS or other alternative firewalls or packet-filters?

[Dan Farrell]

On Tue, 18 Aug 2009 18:11:36 -0400
"Walter Dnes"  wrote:

>   IPCHAINS did the firewall job for me.  Early versions of IPTABLES
> were OK too.  But it eventually developed the Mozilla disease, and
> became a honking big routing/gatewaying/QOSing/singing/dancing
> monstrosity, of which I required only a small fraction of its
> "functionality".  And I'm really confused as to which parts in
> netfilter/xtables/iptables I need to build into the kernel.

Hey, 

I too am a minimalist but I think you've got iptables misidentified.
It has lots of features; that's not the same as saying it's bloated.
More like the linux kernel (and in fact it _is_, as others have said,
the linux kernel) - it supports a lot of different functionality.  If
you don't want a particular capability, disable it in the kernel.  

If you want a quick firewall setup, use
http://spore.ath.cx/~dan/doc/home-firewall.html.  It's what I use and my
step by step guide should save you a bit of effort.  

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: I lost the ability to boot into single user

[Alan McKinnon]

On Wednesday 19 August 2009 01:11:50 Dan Farrell wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Aug 2009 04:27:57 +0300
>
> Nikos Chantziaras  wrote:
> > On 08/18/2009 02:00 AM, Dale wrote:
> > > I agree, this should be reported so it can be fixed.  While
> > > init-/bin/bash would work, it shouldn't be the only option.
> >
> > I filed a bug for it: http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=281850
>
> In a pinch, you can also use the argument init=/bin/bash to get a
> bash shell up without using init.  It's saved me a CD or a heap of
> trouble a few times.

Wait until some bastard runs

mv /bin/bash /bin/bash.gotcha

then you try init=/bin/bash :-)

It causes utter carnage, without another shell handy, you do need a CD to get 
around that one.

-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: I lost the ability to boot into single user

[Albert Hopkins]

On Wed, 2009-08-19 at 01:20 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > In a pinch, you can also use the argument init=/bin/bash to get a
> > bash shell up without using init.  It's saved me a CD or a heap of
> > trouble a few times.
> 
> Wait until some bastard runs
> 
> mv /bin/bash /bin/bash.gotcha
> 
> then you try init=/bin/bash :-)
> 
> It causes utter carnage, without another shell handy, you do need a CD
> to get 
> around that one.

Hmm.. let's see, who could successfully run that command?

$ ls -ld /bin /bin/bash
4.0K drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4.0K 2009-08-17 12:56 /bin/
864K -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 861K 2009-08-15 20:46 /bin/bash*

Oh, the same "bastard" who can 'passwd root' or 'rm -rf /' or pretty
much  anything else.

So if you have a person who has the capability and will to do that then
I think you have far more to worry about.

So the moral to the story is don't give root access to "bastards".

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: I lost the ability to boot into single user

[Shawn Haggett]

On Wednesday 19 August 2009 09:17:30 Albert Hopkins wrote:
> On Wed, 2009-08-19 at 01:20 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > > In a pinch, you can also use the argument init=/bin/bash to get a
> > > bash shell up without using init.  It's saved me a CD or a heap of
> > > trouble a few times.
> >
> > Wait until some bastard runs
> >
> > mv /bin/bash /bin/bash.gotcha
> >
> > then you try init=/bin/bash :-)
> >
> > It causes utter carnage, without another shell handy, you do need a CD
> > to get
> > around that one.
>
> Hmm.. let's see, who could successfully run that command?
>
> $ ls -ld /bin /bin/bash
> 4.0K drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4.0K 2009-08-17 12:56 /bin/
> 864K -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 861K 2009-08-15 20:46 /bin/bash*
>
> Oh, the same "bastard" who can 'passwd root' or 'rm -rf /' or pretty
> much  anything else.
>
> So if you have a person who has the capability and will to do that then
> I think you have far more to worry about.
>
> So the moral to the story is don't give root access to "bastards".

Does that include bastard operators? Or only when they come from hell? :P

Shawn

[gentoo-user] Re: I lost the ability to boot into single user

[Nikos Chantziaras]

On 08/19/2009 02:11 AM, Dan Farrell wrote:

On Tue, 18 Aug 2009 04:27:57 +0300
Nikos Chantziaras  wrote:


On 08/18/2009 02:00 AM, Dale wrote:

I agree, this should be reported so it can be fixed.  While
init-/bin/bash would work, it shouldn't be the only option.


I filed a bug for it: http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=281850



In a pinch, you can also use the argument init=/bin/bash to get a
bash shell up without using init.  It's saved me a CD or a heap of
trouble a few times.


The real problem is that I can't boot the box into a VM anymore.  On 
this machine, I have three grub entries: "softlevel=native", 
"softlevel=vmware" and "softlevel=xen", each booting a suitable kernel 
and moving the right xorg.conf into /etc/X11.  That functionality is 
lost and is a major problem.

[gentoo-user] Re: I lost the ability to boot into single user

[ABCD]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
> On 08/19/2009 02:11 AM, Dan Farrell wrote:
>> On Tue, 18 Aug 2009 04:27:57 +0300
>> Nikos Chantziaras  wrote:
>>
>>> On 08/18/2009 02:00 AM, Dale wrote:
 I agree, this should be reported so it can be fixed.  While
 init-/bin/bash would work, it shouldn't be the only option.
>>>
>>> I filed a bug for it: http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=281850
>>>
>>
>> In a pinch, you can also use the argument init=/bin/bash to get a
>> bash shell up without using init.  It's saved me a CD or a heap of
>> trouble a few times.
> 
> The real problem is that I can't boot the box into a VM anymore.  On
> this machine, I have three grub entries: "softlevel=native",
> "softlevel=vmware" and "softlevel=xen", each booting a suitable kernel
> and moving the right xorg.conf into /etc/X11.  That functionality is
> lost and is a major problem.
> 

What I believe you are supposed to do now is edit /etc/inittab, changing
the commands to run at init runlevels 2-5 to match the rc runlevel that
you want to enter.  Then you can pass the proper number on the kernel
command line.

- --
ABCD
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Version: GnuPG v2.0.11 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

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[gentoo-user] warning: vmware workstation users should not use new 10.0 profile

[Keith Dart]

The new 10.0 profile recently bumped libxcb, and other X libraries, to
new versions that break the vmware workstation. Since that is a binary
only package it can't be re-compiled by the user. So workstation users
are advised to stick with 2008.0 profile for quite some time. 

(spoken from experience, was not a fun upgrade/downgrade) 

-- Keith Dart

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   Keith Dart 
   public key: ID: 19017044
   
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