Re: [VOTE] PPMCs for Incubating Projects

[Nicola Ken Barozzi]

Aaron Bannert wrote:
...
Also, it seems to me that any Incubator PMC member who has joined
a PPMC list is already acting in the role of "Mentor"? Now that we
have PPMCs, we don't need to have an explicit role of "Mentor"
anymore. Can we get rid of these complicated rules and roles and
terms now that we have a PPMC?
It seems to me that we basically agree, except for this point, which I 
find important to be decided. Let's see.

My scenario:
 - All Incubator PMC members are on all PPMCs
 - Some Incubator PMC members are Mentors on a project
 - Only Mentors participate actively in that project
 - Other PMC members are last-resort vetoers on PPMCs
Your scenario:
 - The Incubator PMC members that are active on the respective projects
   are Mentors and are on the PPMC
 - Incubator PMC members can chime into PPMCs at any time and
   participate there and even vote, but it's not required
 - status reports to the Incubator PMC are the means of reporting
   and are also posted on general
I'm still thinking, but ATM I tend to believe that your scenario is 
better. :-)

Others see problems with it?

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WS-FX Sandesha

[Davanum Srinivas]

Sanjiva,
We need to go through the incubator for the Sandesha code. Can you please arrange to 
send a fax
with a software grant from you guys? you can find the forms at 
http://www.apache.org/licenses/

Dear Incubator folks,
Since the ws-pmc has already accepted sandesha. i'll start the process inside 
incubator for it.
Here's the proposal. FYI, all infra work has already happened (cvs, mailing lists etc)

thanks,
dims

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Re: WS-FX Sandesha

[Davanum Srinivas]

forgot to attach the proposal -
http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?ReliableMessagingProposal

-- dims

--- Davanum Srinivas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Sanjiva,
> We need to go through the incubator for the Sandesha code. Can you please arrange to 
> send a fax
> with a software grant from you guys? you can find the forms at 
> http://www.apache.org/licenses/
> 
> Dear Incubator folks,
> Since the ws-pmc has already accepted sandesha. i'll start the process inside 
> incubator for it.
> Here's the proposal. FYI, all infra work has already happened (cvs, mailing lists 
> etc)
> 
> thanks,
> dims
> 
> =
> Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/
> 
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[VOTE] Re: request for incubation: axion database project

[Rodney Waldhoff]

Since that first post hasn't drawn any response in over a week, let me try
this again, this time under a VOTE thread, and with an alternative in
light of the recent discussion:


Ballot 1:

The Axion Database project has voted to become a part of the Apache DB
project, and the DB PMC has accepted that proposal. (See below for the
proposal and additional information.)

 [ ] +1 Accept the Axion for incubation.
 [ ]  0 Abstain
 [ ] -1 Reject Axion for incubation, I don't believe it should become a
part of the ASF.




Ballot 2:

Since Axion is to be a sub-project of the Apache DB project and is
currently comprised of long standing ASF members and committers, and since
some members of the Incubator PMC have recently expressed an interest in
only incubating what is to become top level projects, should Axion
immediately move to be under the control of the Apache DB project, with
the appropriate legal checkpoints to be recorded here within the central
Incubator repository?

 [ ] +1 Yes, let the Apache DB project handle it (i.e., "graduate" it
immediately)
 [ ]  0 Abstain
 [ ] -1 No, if Axion is to become a part of the ASF, it should be
incubated here first.


On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, Rodney Waldhoff wrote:

> The Axion Database project [1] has voted to become a part of the Apache DB
> project [2] and submitted a proposal [3] to the DB PMC to this effect.
>
> The Apache DB project has accepted this proposal [4] and Morgan
> Delegrange, an ASF member and Axion committer, has volunteered [5] to act
> as the incubation "mentor".
>
> Following the Incubator's "Incubation Policy" documentation [6], the
> Apache DB project is now requesting that the Incubator PMC take on Axion
> as a new "podling".
>
> According to the Incubator guidelines, "The Incubator PMC MAY immediately
> accept the Candidate, or may (at the discretion of the Incubator PMC)
> require a successful VOTE by the Incubator PMC."  So as I understand it,
> the ball is now in your (or soon to be "our") court.
>
> For your convenience, the Axion proposal is included below.  Note in
> particular section 3, which enumerates the resources to be created in
> order to move forward with the transition to Apache.
>
> Non-normatively, there is working plan for the migration at
> .
>
> [1] See 
> [2] See
> 
> and  for the
> VOTE thread and RESULT)
> [3] See , or see below.
> [4] See  and
> 
> [5] See  or
> 
> [6] See
> 
>  to read the proposal, or see below.
>
> - Rod 
>
> copy of proposal follows
> =
>
> Proposal for Creating an Axion sub-project within the Apache DB Project
>
> (0) Rationale and Consideration of Sub-Project Criteria
>
> Axion is a relational database engine currently developed and released
> under an Apache/BSD-like license.
>
> While it has not yet had a formal 1.0 release, Axion is not a new project.
> Axion has had three binary "milestone" releases, the first of which was
> released over a year ago (9 July 2002) [1].  The project has been under
> active development since early 2002 [2] and has shown regular and diverse
> growth in both the development and user communities.
>
> The Axion team has operated under meritocratic guidelines [3] similar to
> and derived from those of the ASF since its inception.
>
> The Axion project has strong personal ties to the Apache community.  Many
> members of the Axion community are contributors or committers to one or
> more ASF projects, serve on one or more ASF PMCs or are ASF members. [4]
>
> The Axion project has strong technical ties to the Apache community.
> Axion uses several ASF libraries [5], and as a project, has contributed
> code back to those libraries where appropriate [6].  Some existing ASF
> projects use or support Axion currently, others have expressed an interest
> in doing so (notably the Apache Directory Project).
>
> Similarly, many current ASF projects could advantage of a robust,
> ASF-licensed Java database engine and there several projects with which
> Axion could collaborate on infrastructural components.
>
> (1) Scope
>
> The project will create and maintain a (primarily relational) database
> engine and related utilities, to be distributed under an ASF-license.
>
> (2) Initial Source
>
> The 

RE: [VOTE] Re: request for incubation: axion database project

[Noel J. Bergman]

Ballot 1:

The Axion Database project has voted to become a part of the Apache DB
project, and the DB PMC has accepted that proposal. (See below for the
proposal and additional information.)

 [X] +1 Accept the Axion for incubation.
 [ ]  0 Abstain
 [ ] -1 Reject Axion for incubation


Ballot 2 is based on a misunderstanding.  However, from what I understand of
Axion, I feel confident that it will smoothly and rapidly pass through the
Incubator.

--- Noel


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RE: [VOTE] Re: request for incubation: axion database project

[Davanum Srinivas]

Ballot 1:
[X] +1 Accept the Axion for incubation.
[ ]  0 Abstain
[ ] -1 Reject Axion for incubation

Thanks,
dims

--- "Noel J. Bergman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> Ballot 1:
> 
> The Axion Database project has voted to become a part of the Apache DB
> project, and the DB PMC has accepted that proposal. (See below for the
> proposal and additional information.)
> 
>  [X] +1 Accept the Axion for incubation.
>  [ ]  0 Abstain
>  [ ] -1 Reject Axion for incubation
> 
> 
> Ballot 2 is based on a misunderstanding.  However, from what I understand of
> Axion, I feel confident that it will smoothly and rapidly pass through the
> Incubator.
> 
>   --- Noel
> 
> 
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Re: [VOTE] Re: request for incubation: axion database project

[Jason van Zyl]

On Thu, 2003-12-18 at 11:28, Rodney Waldhoff wrote:

> 
> Ballot 2:
> 
> Since Axion is to be a sub-project of the Apache DB project and is
> currently comprised of long standing ASF members and committers, and since
> some members of the Incubator PMC have recently expressed an interest in
> only incubating what is to become top level projects, should Axion
> immediately move to be under the control of the Apache DB project, with
> the appropriate legal checkpoints to be recorded here within the central
> Incubator repository?
> 
>  [X] +1 Yes, let the Apache DB project handle it (i.e., "graduate" it
> immediately)
>  [ ]  0 Abstain
>  [ ] -1 No, if Axion is to become a part of the ASF, it should be
> incubated here first.
> 

If I IP issues are dealt with then I think it would be safe to let the
interested PMC take care of the rest. Nothing is ever going to happen
here in a reasonable amount of time. As is the case with the message
that was posted a week ago. Ten proposals will be written first and the
web site multilated a half dozen times.

To preserve any sort of sanity let the PMC take on the brunt of the
work. The Incubator should be a resource for the PMCs and not a massive
bottleneck to getting anything done. I mean lets get real here, the
incubator is an obstacle currently and it's highly unlikely it's ever
going to be any different.

The only thing that could really present a problem is the legal stuff,
after that let it go. If the PMC decides the projects sucks  for
whatever reason then it can toss it out. If a project wants to go TLP
then let them (I don't care anymore, users will ultimately decide what
is shit and what isn't) and if it's a big flop then kick them out. The
Incubator is a morass and big hinderance to getting anything done.

Rodney's been doing lots of work and basically gets no feedback from
anyone because everyone is busy writing proposals while the people we
are trying to help (the new projects) and users who are ultimately going
to benefit get zero attention. That's simply absurd.

-- 
jvz.

Jason van Zyl
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://tambora.zenplex.org

In short, man creates for himself a new religion of a rational
and technical order to justify his work and to be justified in it.
  
  -- Jacques Ellul, The Technological Society


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Re: [VOTE] Re: request for incubation: axion database project

[Sander Striker]

On Thu, 2003-12-18 at 18:57, Jason van Zyl wrote:
> On Thu, 2003-12-18 at 11:28, Rodney Waldhoff wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Ballot 2:
> > 
> > Since Axion is to be a sub-project of the Apache DB project and is
> > currently comprised of long standing ASF members and committers, and since
> > some members of the Incubator PMC have recently expressed an interest in
> > only incubating what is to become top level projects,

I still don't get where this came from.

[...]
> The only thing that could really present a problem is the legal stuff,
> after that let it go. If the PMC decides the projects sucks  for
> whatever reason then it can toss it out. If a project wants to go TLP
> then let them (I don't care anymore, users will ultimately decide what
> is shit and what isn't) and if it's a big flop then kick them out. The
> Incubator is a morass and big hinderance to getting anything done.

You're taking this a bit too lightly.  A TLP will have a Chair who
will be a V.P. of the foundation.  A V.P. can sign documents on
behalf of the foundation, etc.


Sander

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Re: [VOTE] Re: request for incubation: axion database project

[Jason van Zyl]

On Thu, 2003-12-18 at 13:14, Sander Striker wrote:
> On Thu, 2003-12-18 at 18:57, Jason van Zyl wrote:
> > On Thu, 2003-12-18 at 11:28, Rodney Waldhoff wrote:
> > 
> > > 
> > > Ballot 2:
> > > 
> > > Since Axion is to be a sub-project of the Apache DB project and is
> > > currently comprised of long standing ASF members and committers, and since
> > > some members of the Incubator PMC have recently expressed an interest in
> > > only incubating what is to become top level projects,
> 
> I still don't get where this came from.

It came from pure frustration from the fact that *nothing* ever gets
done here. What are the PMCs for anyway? Why can't they vet the code for
whatever reason because that's who ends up doing it in the incubator
anyway. Everything else is a distraction.

> [...]
> > The only thing that could really present a problem is the legal stuff,
> > after that let it go. If the PMC decides the projects sucks  for
> > whatever reason then it can toss it out. If a project wants to go TLP
> > then let them (I don't care anymore, users will ultimately decide what
> > is shit and what isn't) and if it's a big flop then kick them out. The
> > Incubator is a morass and big hinderance to getting anything done.
> 
> You're taking this a bit too lightly.  A TLP will have a Chair who
> will be a V.P. of the foundation.  A V.P. can sign documents on
> behalf of the foundation, etc.

C'mon dude, it's not like the proposed PMC chair is coming out of the
blue. If we don't know who this is already or we don't know the
responsible member well enough then what the hell do we have?

I don't want people nobody knows to walk in and become an officer of the
board but someone has to know these people coming in. Ultimately we are
trusting the people involved with the project anyway. Do you know any of
the Geronimo people personally? Or the Ruper people? Probably not, I
know I don't. So if we don't trust the people interested in bringing the
code in then we don't have anything anyway.

> 
> Sander
> 
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-- 
jvz.

Jason van Zyl
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://tambora.zenplex.org

In short, man creates for himself a new religion of a rational
and technical order to justify his work and to be justified in it.
  
  -- Jacques Ellul, The Technological Society


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RE: [VOTE] Re: request for incubation: axion database project

[Noel J. Bergman]

> The Incubator is a morass and big hinderance to getting anything done.

Is there a fee for this troll?

The Incubator re-organization around the PPMC concept provides direct
oversight between the Incubator PMC, the project's developers, and (in this
case), the DB PMC.  There is no reason for any undue hinderance, unless
someone wants to make an issue out of the process.  We could spend more time
feeding your troll than dealing with any issues before the project would
leave the Incubator.

--- Noel


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Re: [VOTE] Re: request for incubation: axion database project

[Greg Stein]

On Thu, Dec 18, 2003 at 12:57:51PM -0500, Jason van Zyl wrote:
> On Thu, 2003-12-18 at 11:28, Rodney Waldhoff wrote:
> > 
> > Ballot 2:
> > 
> > Since Axion is to be a sub-project of the Apache DB project and is
> > currently comprised of long standing ASF members and committers, and since
> > some members of the Incubator PMC have recently expressed an interest in
> > only incubating what is to become top level projects, should Axion
> > immediately move to be under the control of the Apache DB project, with
> > the appropriate legal checkpoints to be recorded here within the central
> > Incubator repository?
> > 
> >  [X] +1 Yes, let the Apache DB project handle it (i.e., "graduate" it
> > immediately)
> >  [ ]  0 Abstain
> >  [ ] -1 No, if Axion is to become a part of the ASF, it should be
> > incubated here first.

No. It must be incubated first.

The Board spoke about this topic for nearly 45 minutes yesterday at our
Board meeting. We started to come up with some guidelines for when a
project needs incubation, or when a PMC can directly handle it itself. We
need to work through that on the Board's mailing list for a bit, and then
we'll send out our official recommendation.

One of the main points to make is that we *will* support PMCs doing some
"mild incubation", if you will. Specifically, when the incoming codebase
only needs some IP audit/checklist types of actions. The PMC Chair will be
required to do that personally, and then deliver the completed checklist
to the Incubator for filing/storage.

> If I IP issues are dealt with then I think it would be safe to let the
> interested PMC take care of the rest. Nothing is ever going to happen
> here in a reasonable amount of time. As is the case with the message

How about a little constructive criticism instead? If there is a problem,
then can you think of a way to fix it? And I'm talking about fixing
Incubator, rather than avoiding it.

>...
> work. The Incubator should be a resource for the PMCs and not a massive
> bottleneck to getting anything done.

What are your suggestions for fixing Incubator to reduce the bottleneck?

> I mean lets get real here, the
> incubator is an obstacle currently and it's highly unlikely it's ever
> going to be any different.

As long as posts remain in this tone... yes, things won't change.

> The only thing that could really present a problem is the legal stuff,
> after that let it go.

That is where the Incubator is heading. It is also along the lines of the
"checklist" concept that a PMC will be able to do itself. Give it some
time to figure that out, or help with that process. Okay?

>...

The simple fact is that the PMCs used to "do this by themselves" and they
*screwed* it up. Therefore, the Incubator was created to ensure that we
stopped having these IP problems. Therefore, you also don't get a choice
on handling incoming codebases until the Board provides modified
instructions to the Incubator and the PMCs.

Yes, that sucks, but IP concerns are #1 for the ASF. And we cannot allow
what used to happen before the Incubator was created. Note that we still
still IP problems here and there, but that is based on the failures of the
PMCs to step in and take action when the committers blithely create
problems. Some PMCs are more rigorous than others, thankfully.

-g

-- 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] ... ASF Chairman ... http://www.apache.org/

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RE: [VOTE] Re: request for incubation: axion database project

[Jason van Zyl]

On Thu, 2003-12-18 at 13:26, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > The Incubator is a morass and big hinderance to getting anything done.
> 
> Is there a fee for this troll?

See it as you like, the Incubator doesn't work, plain and simple. 

> The Incubator re-organization around the PPMC concept provides direct
> oversight between the Incubator PMC, the project's developers, and (in this
> case), the DB PMC.  There is no reason for any undue hinderance, unless
> someone wants to make an issue out of the process.  We could spend more time
> feeding your troll than dealing with any issues before the project would
> leave the Incubator.

Of course there is no reason for undue hinderance, when is there ever?
It just happens here. Apache just isn't going to survive if the
Incubator is the model for operation. Give it a couple years and without
a doubt the formation of the incubator will be seen as the mark of the
beginning of the collapse of Apache. You guys are going to have more
processes than the ISO for Pete's sake. Doesn't anyone else see this?

The network of trust between members and the common sense of members is
all we need. All this insane and ever grow pile of processes is going to
kill the spirit of Apache.

-- 
jvz.

Jason van Zyl
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://tambora.zenplex.org

In short, man creates for himself a new religion of a rational
and technical order to justify his work and to be justified in it.
  
  -- Jacques Ellul, The Technological Society


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Re: [VOTE] Re: request for incubation: axion database project

[Greg Stein]

On Thu, Dec 18, 2003 at 12:47:05PM -0500, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> 
> Ballot 1:
> 
> The Axion Database project has voted to become a part of the Apache DB
> project, and the DB PMC has accepted that proposal. (See below for the
> proposal and additional information.)
> 
>  [X] +1 Accept the Axion for incubation.
>  [ ]  0 Abstain
>  [ ] -1 Reject Axion for incubation
> 

+1 here, too.

-- 
Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/

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RE: [VOTE] Re: request for incubation: axion database project

[Noel J. Bergman]

Jason van Zyl wrote:
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > > The Incubator is a morass and big hinderance to getting anything done.
> > Is there a fee for this troll?
> See it as you like, the Incubator doesn't work, plain and simple.

By the same logic, neither does anything that wasn't born fully functional
and flawless.  After all, nothing changes.

> Apache just isn't going to survive if the Incubator is the model
> for operation.

> The network of trust between members and the common sense of
> members is all we need.

Actually, if you would open your eyes and look around, that is what is
happening with the Incubator.

Now ... if you want to stop hand waving, and get down to brass tacks, my
idea is that we would use [EMAIL PROTECTED] (with or without
projects-ppmc@) for most projects like Axion that have a well-defined
destination, a community, and are expected to sail through.  We need to
complete a STATUS page, especially regarding the IP, and vote on it.  So you
tell me, Jason, where is this all-consuming hinderance of which you speak?

The preceding is my proposal for handling all such projects.

--- Noel


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Re: [VOTE] Re: request for incubation: axion database project

[Rodney Waldhoff]

On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Greg Stein wrote:

> The Board spoke about this topic for nearly 45 minutes yesterday at our
> Board meeting. We started to come up with some guidelines for when a
> project needs incubation, or when a PMC can directly handle it itself. We
> need to work through that on the Board's mailing list for a bit, and then
> we'll send out our official recommendation.
>
> One of the main points to make is that we *will* support PMCs doing some
> "mild incubation", if you will. Specifically, when the incoming codebase
> only needs some IP audit/checklist types of actions. The PMC Chair will be
> required to do that personally, and then deliver the completed checklist
> to the Incubator for filing/storage.

Can you and/or the board provide more information on how to determine if a
project requires "mild" incubation or "not-mild" incubation?

> The simple fact is that the PMCs used to "do this by themselves" and they
> *screwed* it up.

In what way was this "screwed up"?  Are there/were there specific IP
issues this refers to?

> Therefore, the Incubator was created to ensure that we stopped having
> these IP problems. Therefore, you also don't get a choice on handling
> incoming codebases until the Board provides modified instructions to the
> Incubator and the PMCs.
>
> Yes, that sucks, but IP concerns are #1 for the ASF. And we cannot allow
> what used to happen before the Incubator was created. Note that we still
> still IP problems here and there, but that is based on the failures of the
> PMCs to step in and take action when the committers blithely create
> problems. Some PMCs are more rigorous than others, thankfully.

+1 on not having IP problems.

> -g

- Rod 

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RE: [VOTE] Re: request for incubation: axion database project

[Jason van Zyl]

On Thu, 2003-12-18 at 14:02, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Jason van Zyl wrote:
> > Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > > > The Incubator is a morass and big hinderance to getting anything done.
> > > Is there a fee for this troll?
> > See it as you like, the Incubator doesn't work, plain and simple.
> 
> By the same logic, neither does anything that wasn't born fully functional
> and flawless.  After all, nothing changes.

Left field but I'll bite: nothing is born flawless and perfect it is a
matter of adaptation. When the ASF was born it was highly adaptable
which is why it has done so well.

> > Apache just isn't going to survive if the Incubator is the model
> > for operation.
> 
> > The network of trust between members and the common sense of
> > members is all we need.
> 
> Actually, if you would open your eyes and look around, that is what is
> happening with the Incubator.
> 
> Now ... if you want to stop hand waving, and get down to brass tacks, my
> idea is that we would use [EMAIL PROTECTED] (with or without
> projects-ppmc@) for most projects like Axion that have a well-defined
> destination, a community, and are expected to sail through.  

If this is a sort of fast track for projects we know to be fine by
virtue of existing connections with Apache then that would definitely be
good.

> We need to
> complete a STATUS page, especially regarding the IP, and vote on it.  So you
> tell me, Jason, where is this all-consuming hinderance of which you speak?

o confusing and unnavigable website

o a website that seems to change more often than not

o Rodney not being able to find useful information regarding the  
processes here when trying to figure out what to do with Axion.

o Rodney not really getting much feedback while people on the list are
talking about podlings and mentors and shepherds and other use jargon.

o basically a completely unclear path and when people ask for help it
often goes unanswered. Lots of people are answering Rodney today because
I'm in everyone's face.

o endless discussions while nothing much has really been decided this
thing has been here for how long? 6 months, a year and look what the sum
total is on the site. It's nuts.

> The preceding is my proposal for handling all such projects.

Great, now why wasn't some common sense like that employed when this
whole show started? Because the tendency leans toward the voluminous and
unfocused.

-- 
jvz.

Jason van Zyl
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://tambora.zenplex.org

In short, man creates for himself a new religion of a rational
and technical order to justify his work and to be justified in it.
  
  -- Jacques Ellul, The Technological Society


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Re: [VOTE] Re: request for incubation: axion database project

[Greg Stein]

On Thu, Dec 18, 2003 at 01:22:04PM -0500, Jason van Zyl wrote:
>...
> I don't want people nobody knows to walk in and become an officer of the
> board but someone has to know these people coming in. Ultimately we are

Have a little more faith in the Board than that, please. We're just as
concerned about creating officers.

Cheers,
-g

-- 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] ... ASF Chairman ... http://www.apache.org/

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Re: [VOTE] Re: request for incubation: axion database project

[Geir Magnusson Jr]

On Dec 18, 2003, at 2:02 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
Now ... if you want to stop hand waving, and get down to brass tacks, 
my
idea is that we would use [EMAIL PROTECTED] (with or 
without
projects-ppmc@) for most projects like Axion that have a well-defined
destination, a community, and are expected to sail through.  We need to
complete a STATUS page, especially regarding the IP, and vote on it.  
So you
tell me, Jason, where is this all-consuming hinderance of which you 
speak?

The preceding is my proposal for handling all such projects.

Do we have to vote on that as a proposal, or can we move forward with 
it to test it to see if Jason's is right about endless process?

I suggest we try it.

Who would fill in the status page?

--
Geir Magnusson Jr   203-247-1713(m)
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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RE: [VOTE] Re: request for incubation: axion database project

[Noel J. Bergman]

Jason van Zyl wrote:
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > Jason van Zyl wrote:
> > > Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > > > > The Incubator is a morass and big hinderance to getting anything
done.
> > > > Is there a fee for this troll?
> > > See it as you like, the Incubator doesn't work, plain and simple.
> > By the same logic, neither does anything that wasn't born fully
functional
> > and flawless.  After all, nothing changes.

> nothing is born flawless and perfect it is a matter of adaptation.
> When the ASF was born it was highly adaptable which is why it has
> done so well.

The Incubator, since August and especially in the past few weeks, has gone
through major adaptive changes.  So rapidly that the website does not, yet,
reflect them.  And, honestly, the earlier round was more rule formation.
OK, we've all made that mistake, but we now we're trying to correct it.  :-)

> > Now ... if you want to stop hand waving, and get down to brass tacks, my
> > idea is that we would use [EMAIL PROTECTED] (with or without
> > projects-ppmc@) for most projects like Axion that have a well-defined
> > destination, a community, and are expected to sail through.

> If this is a sort of fast track for projects we know to be fine by
> virtue of existing connections with Apache then that would
> definitely be good.

Ok, see?  We are on the same page.  We are adapting to make things better.

> > We need to complete a STATUS page, especially regarding the IP,
> > and vote on it.  So you tell me, Jason, where is this all-
> >consuming hinderance of which you speak?

> [ list complaints about website and lack of good info ]
> o basically a completely unclear path and when people ask
>   for help it often goes unanswered. Lots of people are
>   answering Rodney today because I'm in everyone's face.

I was responding to him before your comments.  And now I am spending time
with you, rather than talking to Rodney about what to do.  But that's fine,
because now that we've gotten this far, we can take care of both.

Since I suspect that many people will have stopped reading by now, if you
don't mind, I will provide my constructive reply to your question in a fresh
reply to Rodney.

> > The preceding is my proposal for handling all such projects.

> Great, now why wasn't some common sense like that employed when this
> whole show started? Because the tendency leans toward the voluminous
> and unfocused.

That tendency is not unique to the Incubator.  It has become a common
complaint on many ASF lists.  Without engaging in a long discussion about
social systems, let me say that I agree with everyone who has complained
about an accumulation of cruft.  The more we can improve things
structurally, and take a scalpel to layers of built-up (and unncesssary)
rules, the better.  We do need *some* rules, but they should be simple,
clear and necessary to implement our oversight or help promote our core
philosophy of collaborate peer-run projects.

You can help us do that by recognizing when people are trying to accomplish
that task, and endorsing that change rather than perpetuating past
complaints.  Ok?

--- Noel


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Re: [VOTE] Re: request for incubation: axion database project

[Jason van Zyl]

On Thu, 2003-12-18 at 14:27, Greg Stein wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 18, 2003 at 01:22:04PM -0500, Jason van Zyl wrote:
> >...
> > I don't want people nobody knows to walk in and become an officer of the
> > board but someone has to know these people coming in. Ultimately we are
> 
> Have a little more faith in the Board than that, please. We're just as
> concerned about creating officers.

That was actually suppose to be officer of Apache being that the PMC
Chair is an officer of the board. It was a typo but I was responding to
Sander wrt PMC Chairs.

I think everyone feels the same is what I was trying to point out.
Everyone wants to see good projects come in and a good PMC chair. I just
feel the level of scruntiny, in particular Axion, is bit high
considering who they are and where the project is coming from. I think
consessions can be made for projects coming from organizations that you
might call sister organization like Tigirs. 

> Cheers,
> -g
-- 
jvz.

Jason van Zyl
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://tambora.zenplex.org

In short, man creates for himself a new religion of a rational
and technical order to justify his work and to be justified in it.
  
  -- Jacques Ellul, The Technological Society


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RE: [VOTE] Re: request for incubation: axion database project

[Noel J. Bergman]

Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > my idea is that we would use [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > (with or without projects-ppmc@) for most projects like
> > Axion that have a well-defined destination, a community,
> > and are expected to sail through.  We need to complete a
> > STATUS page, especially regarding the IP, and vote on it.

> > The preceding is my proposal for handling all such projects.

> Do we have to vote on that as a proposal, or can we move forward with
> it to test it to see if Jason's is right about endless process?

> I suggest we try it.

> Who would fill in the status page?

Based upon Greg's comment about following Incubator rules until the Board
decides what to do, I think we go ahead and do as I suggested unless there
are complaints.  Lazy consensus.

Considering Jason's positive response to the above proposal, I hope that the
Board will consider it during their further discussions regarding
Incubation.

Already have a reply heading to Rodney on next steps.

--- Noel


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RE: [VOTE] Re: request for incubation: axion database project

[Noel J. Bergman]

Rodney,

The website needs to be updated, but here are the basics, as I understand
them:

 - A PPMC is a working group consisting of the Incubator PMC,
   project committers, and destination PMC if any.  The idea
   of a shephard or mentor is subsumed within the PPMC by the
   PMC members who take an active interest in the project.

 - We will need a STATUS file.  The template for that is in
   the incubator CVS.


http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/incubator/site/projects/incubation-status-
template.cwiki

We need to finish voting here, but in the meantime go ahead and fill out a
new copy as axion.cwiki.  When the vote passes, we will make sure that you
and/or the DB PMC Chair has karma for the CVS module to check it in.  Then
the PPMC can review it, and if there are no issues, we can probably hold a
consensus vote to clear it.

Work for you?  Anyone have any problem with the above?

--- Noel


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Re: [VOTE] Re: request for incubation: axion database project

[Roy T. Fielding]

We need to finish voting here, but in the meantime go ahead and fill 
out a
new copy as axion.cwiki.  When the vote passes, we will make sure that 
you
and/or the DB PMC Chair has karma for the CVS module to check it in.  
Then
the PPMC can review it, and if there are no issues, we can probably 
hold a
consensus vote to clear it.

Work for you?  Anyone have any problem with the above?
Yeah, we already agreed that incubator does not vote on projects that
have been accepted by a PMC.  They are just "here" and need the stuff
set up for them.
Jason, incubator does not DO things for the project when it is destined
for an existing PMC.  The people who are working on the project are 
supposed
to record their own status, answer the status questions to the extent 
they
can do so, ask about any issues that have not been addressed, and 
finally
call a vote to exit incubation.  This is not a nanny service -- it is a
record-keeping gateway.

Roy

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RE: [VOTE] Re: request for incubation: axion database project

[Noel J. Bergman]

Roy T. Fielding wrote:
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > We need to finish voting here, but in the meantime go ahead and fill
> > out a new copy as axion.cwiki.  When the vote passes, we will make
> > sure that you and/or the DB PMC Chair has karma for the CVS module
> > to check it in.  Then the PPMC can review it, and if there are no
> > issues, we can probably hold a consensus vote to clear it.

> > Work for you?  Anyone have any problem with the above?

> Yeah, we already agreed that incubator does not vote on projects that
> have been accepted by a PMC.  They are just "here" and need the stuff
> set up for them.

Whoops.  Sorry.  Good point.  If another PMC has voted to accept the
project, we just take it in.

> Jason, incubator does not DO things for the project when it is destined
> for an existing PMC.  The people who are working on the project are
> supposed to record their own status, answer the status questions to
> the extent they can do so, ask about any issues that have not been
> addressed, and finally call a vote to exit incubation.

At the least, from a cursory glance, Geir, James, Jason already have
sufficient karma to commit axion.cwiki.

--- Noel


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