Re: Add a minimal Gitignore

[Mariusz Felisiak]

Hi,

I'm -1. "Other frameworks..." is not an argument for me, and I don't 
believe that `.gitignore` in the project template makes it more beginner 
friendly as I wouldn't call a beginner someone who use VCS.

Adding `.gitignore` assumes that folks always use Git, that's not true. 
Moreover, `.gitignore` is IDE-specific in most of cases, and we don't want 
to accept dozens of tickets for expanding `.gitignore` with `.idea`, 
`.vscode` etc.

My 2¢

Best,
Mariusz

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Re: Add a minimal Gitignore

[Cory Zue]

Hey,

Thanks, I appreciate the response. It sounds like your main concern is the
overhead of maintaining the .gitignore file, is that right? Could that
potentially be mitigated by a clear writeup of what's included, why, and
then an easy way to close all other tickets? E.g. we could easily just use
github's Python default, declare that the policay, and call it day. Perhaps
that overhead would be no less than having to have this conversation over
and over again as it seems clear has already been happening.

As for the point that not everyone uses git, that's true, but according to
the latest SO survey it's used by 94% of respondents
.
That seems like a pretty solid majority to help support, no?

thanks,
Cory

On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 10:39 AM Mariusz Felisiak <
felisiak.mari...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I'm -1. "Other frameworks..." is not an argument for me, and I don't
> believe that `.gitignore` in the project template makes it more beginner
> friendly as I wouldn't call a beginner someone who use VCS.
>
> Adding `.gitignore` assumes that folks always use Git, that's not true.
> Moreover, `.gitignore` is IDE-specific in most of cases, and we don't want
> to accept dozens of tickets for expanding `.gitignore` with `.idea`,
> `.vscode` etc.
>
> My 2¢
>
> Best,
> Mariusz
>
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> 
> .
>

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Re: Add a minimal Gitignore

[Bogdan Barna]

Just want to say that I agree with Cory. Being a non-core feature/issue, I 
don't see a reason of why not to re-evaluate the "denied" decisions.

On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 9:11:03 AM UTC+2 Cory Zue wrote:

> Is there a more nuanced discussion of this issue anywhere? The reasons 
> stated in the linked PR that it's "not for the project template to provide 
> configuration for source code management tools" feels more like an opinion 
> than a fact.
>
>  I know one of the goals that emerged from recent discussions was how to 
> get more wide adoption of the Django project. This strikes me as one of 
> those simple little things that helps 95% of beginners and doesn't hurt the 
> remaining 5%. If you don't want a .gitignore file, then you're also 
> probably advanced enough to figure out how to build without it, or just 
> delete it.
>
> I just checked a few other frameworks:
>
> Rails new automatically 
>  generates a 
> .gitignore by default, has an option to exclude it 
> .
> Drupal / composer added it in 2020 .
> create-react-app  generates 
> one.
> create-vue  generates one
>
> Perhaps it's time for Django to reconsider and catch up with the times?
>
> Cory
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 7:03 AM Mariusz Felisiak  
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Daniel,
>>
>> Adding .gitignore to the project template has been discussed and 
>> rejected multiple times, e.g. https://github.com/django/django/pull/13847
>>
>> Best,
>> Mariusz
>>
>> -- 
>>
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to django-develop...@googlegroups.com.
>>
> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/fd500891-f348-488a-863b-04c372d1bf4bn%40googlegroups.com
>>  
>> 
>> .
>>
>

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Re: Add a minimal Gitignore

[Tom Carrick]

I don't really like the idea of this for a number of reasons.

A lot of people create the project in a subdirectory. For them, the
gitignore is in the wrong place.

Enough people are using GitHub that they create the repo first with one of
GH's provided gitignores, or copy it in after.

As Python changes, as new tools come out, the gitignore needs to be
constantly updated. There will be a lot of bikeshedding about what should
and shouldn't go in. For example, the .vscode directory sometimes has
project specific code that should be included. Sometimes it should be
excluded because devs are expected to set their own up or use whatever
editor they prefer. Many users (such as myself) have .vscode in a global
gitignore expressly so it doesn't need to be added to every project.

A lot of people are using a frontend framework, that won't be covered by
our gitignore, and this framework might itself want to set up a gitignore.

The biggest problem for me is that it would just be a maintenance burden.

Cheers,
Tom


On Fri, 10 Mar 2023 at 16:01, Bogdan Barna  wrote:

> Just want to say that I agree with Cory. Being a non-core feature/issue, I
> don't see a reason of why not to re-evaluate the "denied" decisions.
>
> On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 9:11:03 AM UTC+2 Cory Zue wrote:
>
>> Is there a more nuanced discussion of this issue anywhere? The reasons
>> stated in the linked PR that it's "not for the project template to provide
>> configuration for source code management tools" feels more like an opinion
>> than a fact.
>>
>>  I know one of the goals that emerged from recent discussions was how to
>> get more wide adoption of the Django project. This strikes me as one of
>> those simple little things that helps 95% of beginners and doesn't hurt the
>> remaining 5%. If you don't want a .gitignore file, then you're also
>> probably advanced enough to figure out how to build without it, or just
>> delete it.
>>
>> I just checked a few other frameworks:
>>
>> Rails new automatically
>>  generates a
>> .gitignore by default, has an option to exclude it
>> .
>> Drupal / composer added it in 2020 .
>> create-react-app 
>> generates one.
>> create-vue  generates one
>>
>> Perhaps it's time for Django to reconsider and catch up with the times?
>>
>> Cory
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 7:03 AM Mariusz Felisiak 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Daniel,
>>>
>>> Adding .gitignore to the project template has been discussed and
>>> rejected multiple times, e.g.
>>> https://github.com/django/django/pull/13847
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Mariusz
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>>> "Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>> an email to django-develop...@googlegroups.com.
>>>
>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/fd500891-f348-488a-863b-04c372d1bf4bn%40googlegroups.com
>>> 
>>> .
>>>
>> --
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> .
>

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Re: Add a minimal Gitignore

['Adam Johnson' via Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)]

I'm also against the idea, unless done in a very minimal fashion.

Many tools in the ecosystem put "ignore everything here" .gitignore files
into their not-normally-committed directories: at least Coverage.py, Mypy,
pytest, and virtualenv. So the trend is that less and less .gitignore
patterns are needed for a Python project. I am not sure there are general
Django patterns we could add except *.pyc , and maybe Python will start
dropped .gitignore files in __pycache__ dirs at some point.

I don't think we could even add a pattern for ignoring .mo files from
translations, since according to a poll I did last year, about 50% of devs
commit them: https://twitter.com/AdamChainz/status/1557058307592015878 .

 we could easily just use github's Python default, declare that the
> policay, and call it day
>

GitHub’s Python default file is seriously bloated:
https://github.com/github/gitignore/blob/main/Python.gitignore . Their
maintenance policy seems to be “accept any suggestion, append-only”. We
generally set a higher bar for Django.

The GitHub file includes patterns to ignore files generated by tools that
have fallen out of favour (e.g. nosetests.xml for nose test runner). And it
also includes low-specificity patterns that could confuse new Git users,
such as target/ ignoring *all* directories named "target". Also the "Django
stuff" patterns in there are related to non-universal ways of using Django.

I wouldn't want to burden all Django projects with so many irrelevant
patterns. It takes work to understand and remove them.

Enough people are using GitHub that they create the repo first with one of
> GH's provided gitignores, or copy it in after.
>

Agree here that people can set up or use Git templates if they wish. Git
itself has a repository template mechanism.

On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 4:07 PM Tom Carrick  wrote:

> I don't really like the idea of this for a number of reasons.
>
> A lot of people create the project in a subdirectory. For them, the
> gitignore is in the wrong place.
>
> Enough people are using GitHub that they create the repo first with one of
> GH's provided gitignores, or copy it in after.
>
> As Python changes, as new tools come out, the gitignore needs to be
> constantly updated. There will be a lot of bikeshedding about what should
> and shouldn't go in. For example, the .vscode directory sometimes has
> project specific code that should be included. Sometimes it should be
> excluded because devs are expected to set their own up or use whatever
> editor they prefer. Many users (such as myself) have .vscode in a global
> gitignore expressly so it doesn't need to be added to every project.
>
> A lot of people are using a frontend framework, that won't be covered by
> our gitignore, and this framework might itself want to set up a gitignore.
>
> The biggest problem for me is that it would just be a maintenance burden.
>
> Cheers,
> Tom
>
>
> On Fri, 10 Mar 2023 at 16:01, Bogdan Barna  wrote:
>
>> Just want to say that I agree with Cory. Being a non-core feature/issue,
>> I don't see a reason of why not to re-evaluate the "denied" decisions.
>>
>> On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 9:11:03 AM UTC+2 Cory Zue wrote:
>>
>>> Is there a more nuanced discussion of this issue anywhere? The reasons
>>> stated in the linked PR that it's "not for the project template to provide
>>> configuration for source code management tools" feels more like an opinion
>>> than a fact.
>>>
>>>  I know one of the goals that emerged from recent discussions was how to
>>> get more wide adoption of the Django project. This strikes me as one of
>>> those simple little things that helps 95% of beginners and doesn't hurt the
>>> remaining 5%. If you don't want a .gitignore file, then you're also
>>> probably advanced enough to figure out how to build without it, or just
>>> delete it.
>>>
>>> I just checked a few other frameworks:
>>>
>>> Rails new automatically
>>>  generates a
>>> .gitignore by default, has an option to exclude it
>>> .
>>> Drupal / composer added it in 2020 
>>> .
>>> create-react-app 
>>> generates one.
>>> create-vue  generates one
>>>
>>> Perhaps it's time for Django to reconsider and catch up with the times?
>>>
>>> Cory
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 7:03 AM Mariusz Felisiak 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Hi Daniel,

 Adding .gitignore to the project template has been discussed and
 rejected multiple times, e.g.
 https://github.com/django/django/pull/13847

 Best,
 Mariusz

 --

>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
 Groups "Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)" group.
 To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
 an email to django-develop...

Re: Add a minimal Gitignore

[Tega Ukavwe]

I strongly agree with Adam and Tom, the extra and unnecessary burden of
maintaining the .gitignore file outweighs its advantages.

Cheers,
Tega.

On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 5:12 PM 'Adam Johnson' via Django developers
(Contributions to Django itself)  wrote:

> I'm also against the idea, unless done in a very minimal fashion.
>
> Many tools in the ecosystem put "ignore everything here" .gitignore files
> into their not-normally-committed directories: at least Coverage.py, Mypy,
> pytest, and virtualenv. So the trend is that less and less .gitignore
> patterns are needed for a Python project. I am not sure there are general
> Django patterns we could add except *.pyc , and maybe Python will start
> dropped .gitignore files in __pycache__ dirs at some point.
>
> I don't think we could even add a pattern for ignoring .mo files from
> translations, since according to a poll I did last year, about 50% of devs
> commit them: https://twitter.com/AdamChainz/status/1557058307592015878 .
>
>  we could easily just use github's Python default, declare that the
>> policay, and call it day
>>
>
> GitHub’s Python default file is seriously bloated:
> https://github.com/github/gitignore/blob/main/Python.gitignore . Their
> maintenance policy seems to be “accept any suggestion, append-only”. We
> generally set a higher bar for Django.
>
> The GitHub file includes patterns to ignore files generated by tools that
> have fallen out of favour (e.g. nosetests.xml for nose test runner). And it
> also includes low-specificity patterns that could confuse new Git users,
> such as target/ ignoring *all* directories named "target". Also the "Django
> stuff" patterns in there are related to non-universal ways of using Django.
>
> I wouldn't want to burden all Django projects with so many irrelevant
> patterns. It takes work to understand and remove them.
>
> Enough people are using GitHub that they create the repo first with one of
>> GH's provided gitignores, or copy it in after.
>>
>
> Agree here that people can set up or use Git templates if they wish. Git
> itself has a repository template mechanism.
>
> On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 4:07 PM Tom Carrick  wrote:
>
>> I don't really like the idea of this for a number of reasons.
>>
>> A lot of people create the project in a subdirectory. For them, the
>> gitignore is in the wrong place.
>>
>> Enough people are using GitHub that they create the repo first with one
>> of GH's provided gitignores, or copy it in after.
>>
>> As Python changes, as new tools come out, the gitignore needs to be
>> constantly updated. There will be a lot of bikeshedding about what should
>> and shouldn't go in. For example, the .vscode directory sometimes has
>> project specific code that should be included. Sometimes it should be
>> excluded because devs are expected to set their own up or use whatever
>> editor they prefer. Many users (such as myself) have .vscode in a global
>> gitignore expressly so it doesn't need to be added to every project.
>>
>> A lot of people are using a frontend framework, that won't be covered by
>> our gitignore, and this framework might itself want to set up a gitignore.
>>
>> The biggest problem for me is that it would just be a maintenance burden.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Tom
>>
>>
>> On Fri, 10 Mar 2023 at 16:01, Bogdan Barna  wrote:
>>
>>> Just want to say that I agree with Cory. Being a non-core feature/issue,
>>> I don't see a reason of why not to re-evaluate the "denied" decisions.
>>>
>>> On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 9:11:03 AM UTC+2 Cory Zue wrote:
>>>
 Is there a more nuanced discussion of this issue anywhere? The reasons
 stated in the linked PR that it's "not for the project template to provide
 configuration for source code management tools" feels more like an opinion
 than a fact.

  I know one of the goals that emerged from recent discussions was how
 to get more wide adoption of the Django project. This strikes me as one of
 those simple little things that helps 95% of beginners and doesn't hurt the
 remaining 5%. If you don't want a .gitignore file, then you're also
 probably advanced enough to figure out how to build without it, or just
 delete it.

 I just checked a few other frameworks:

 Rails new automatically
  generates a
 .gitignore by default, has an option to exclude it
 .
 Drupal / composer added it in 2020
 .
 create-react-app 
 generates one.
 create-vue  generates one

 Perhaps it's time for Django to reconsider and catch up with the times?

 Cory




 On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 7:03 AM Mariusz Felisiak 
 wrote:

> Hi Daniel,
>
> Adding .gitignore to the project template has been discuss

Re: Add a minimal Gitignore

[Arthur Pemberton]

What exactly would be considered the burden in maintaining a .gitignore?

Arthur

On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 11:37 AM Tega Ukavwe  wrote:

> I strongly agree with Adam and Tom, the extra and unnecessary burden of
> maintaining the .gitignore file outweighs its advantages.
>
> Cheers,
> Tega.
>
> On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 5:12 PM 'Adam Johnson' via Django developers
> (Contributions to Django itself) 
> wrote:
>
>> I'm also against the idea, unless done in a very minimal fashion.
>>
>> Many tools in the ecosystem put "ignore everything here" .gitignore files
>> into their not-normally-committed directories: at least Coverage.py, Mypy,
>> pytest, and virtualenv. So the trend is that less and less .gitignore
>> patterns are needed for a Python project. I am not sure there are general
>> Django patterns we could add except *.pyc , and maybe Python will start
>> dropped .gitignore files in __pycache__ dirs at some point.
>>
>> I don't think we could even add a pattern for ignoring .mo files from
>> translations, since according to a poll I did last year, about 50% of devs
>> commit them: https://twitter.com/AdamChainz/status/1557058307592015878 .
>>
>>  we could easily just use github's Python default, declare that the
>>> policay, and call it day
>>>
>>
>> GitHub’s Python default file is seriously bloated:
>> https://github.com/github/gitignore/blob/main/Python.gitignore . Their
>> maintenance policy seems to be “accept any suggestion, append-only”. We
>> generally set a higher bar for Django.
>>
>> The GitHub file includes patterns to ignore files generated by tools that
>> have fallen out of favour (e.g. nosetests.xml for nose test runner). And it
>> also includes low-specificity patterns that could confuse new Git users,
>> such as target/ ignoring *all* directories named "target". Also the "Django
>> stuff" patterns in there are related to non-universal ways of using Django.
>>
>> I wouldn't want to burden all Django projects with so many irrelevant
>> patterns. It takes work to understand and remove them.
>>
>> Enough people are using GitHub that they create the repo first with one
>>> of GH's provided gitignores, or copy it in after.
>>>
>>
>> Agree here that people can set up or use Git templates if they wish. Git
>> itself has a repository template mechanism.
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 4:07 PM Tom Carrick  wrote:
>>
>>> I don't really like the idea of this for a number of reasons.
>>>
>>> A lot of people create the project in a subdirectory. For them, the
>>> gitignore is in the wrong place.
>>>
>>> Enough people are using GitHub that they create the repo first with one
>>> of GH's provided gitignores, or copy it in after.
>>>
>>> As Python changes, as new tools come out, the gitignore needs to be
>>> constantly updated. There will be a lot of bikeshedding about what should
>>> and shouldn't go in. For example, the .vscode directory sometimes has
>>> project specific code that should be included. Sometimes it should be
>>> excluded because devs are expected to set their own up or use whatever
>>> editor they prefer. Many users (such as myself) have .vscode in a global
>>> gitignore expressly so it doesn't need to be added to every project.
>>>
>>> A lot of people are using a frontend framework, that won't be covered by
>>> our gitignore, and this framework might itself want to set up a gitignore.
>>>
>>> The biggest problem for me is that it would just be a maintenance burden.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Tom
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, 10 Mar 2023 at 16:01, Bogdan Barna  wrote:
>>>
 Just want to say that I agree with Cory. Being a non-core
 feature/issue, I don't see a reason of why not to re-evaluate the "denied"
 decisions.

 On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 9:11:03 AM UTC+2 Cory Zue wrote:

> Is there a more nuanced discussion of this issue anywhere? The reasons
> stated in the linked PR that it's "not for the project template to provide
> configuration for source code management tools" feels more like an opinion
> than a fact.
>
>  I know one of the goals that emerged from recent discussions was how
> to get more wide adoption of the Django project. This strikes me as one of
> those simple little things that helps 95% of beginners and doesn't hurt 
> the
> remaining 5%. If you don't want a .gitignore file, then you're also
> probably advanced enough to figure out how to build without it, or just
> delete it.
>
> I just checked a few other frameworks:
>
> Rails new automatically
>  generates a
> .gitignore by default, has an option to exclude it
> .
> Drupal / composer added it in 2020
> .
> create-react-app 
> generates one.
> create-vue  generates one
>
> Perhaps 

Re: Add a minimal Gitignore

[Jörg Breitbart]

Also -1 from my side.

Imho django should deal with django things, and not with other stuff 
that may come handy on top. There are many more VCS than git, and even 
with git in particular there are several ways to structure your repo. To 
me this should stay a matter of VCS/repo tooling, not being specified by 
django itself.


Cheers,
Jörg

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Re: Add a minimal Gitignore

[Tega Ukavwe]

Here I quote Tom's reply to this thread: "As Python changes, as new tools
come out, the gitignore needs to be constantly updated. There will be a lot
of bikeshedding about what should and shouldn't go in. For example, the
.vscode directory sometimes has project specific code that should be
included."

I hope you understand,
Cheers,
Tega.

On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 5:47 PM Arthur Pemberton  wrote:

> What exactly would be considered the burden in maintaining a .gitignore?
>
> Arthur
>
> On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 11:37 AM Tega Ukavwe  wrote:
>
>> I strongly agree with Adam and Tom, the extra and unnecessary burden of
>> maintaining the .gitignore file outweighs its advantages.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Tega.
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 5:12 PM 'Adam Johnson' via Django developers
>> (Contributions to Django itself) 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm also against the idea, unless done in a very minimal fashion.
>>>
>>> Many tools in the ecosystem put "ignore everything here" .gitignore
>>> files into their not-normally-committed directories: at least Coverage.py,
>>> Mypy, pytest, and virtualenv. So the trend is that less and less .gitignore
>>> patterns are needed for a Python project. I am not sure there are general
>>> Django patterns we could add except *.pyc , and maybe Python will start
>>> dropped .gitignore files in __pycache__ dirs at some point.
>>>
>>> I don't think we could even add a pattern for ignoring .mo files from
>>> translations, since according to a poll I did last year, about 50% of devs
>>> commit them: https://twitter.com/AdamChainz/status/1557058307592015878 .
>>>
>>>  we could easily just use github's Python default, declare that the
 policay, and call it day

>>>
>>> GitHub’s Python default file is seriously bloated:
>>> https://github.com/github/gitignore/blob/main/Python.gitignore . Their
>>> maintenance policy seems to be “accept any suggestion, append-only”. We
>>> generally set a higher bar for Django.
>>>
>>> The GitHub file includes patterns to ignore files generated by tools
>>> that have fallen out of favour (e.g. nosetests.xml for nose test runner).
>>> And it also includes low-specificity patterns that could confuse new Git
>>> users, such as target/ ignoring *all* directories named "target". Also the
>>> "Django stuff" patterns in there are related to non-universal ways of using
>>> Django.
>>>
>>> I wouldn't want to burden all Django projects with so many irrelevant
>>> patterns. It takes work to understand and remove them.
>>>
>>> Enough people are using GitHub that they create the repo first with one
 of GH's provided gitignores, or copy it in after.

>>>
>>> Agree here that people can set up or use Git templates if they wish. Git
>>> itself has a repository template mechanism.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 4:07 PM Tom Carrick  wrote:
>>>
 I don't really like the idea of this for a number of reasons.

 A lot of people create the project in a subdirectory. For them, the
 gitignore is in the wrong place.

 Enough people are using GitHub that they create the repo first with one
 of GH's provided gitignores, or copy it in after.

 As Python changes, as new tools come out, the gitignore needs to be
 constantly updated. There will be a lot of bikeshedding about what should
 and shouldn't go in. For example, the .vscode directory sometimes has
 project specific code that should be included. Sometimes it should be
 excluded because devs are expected to set their own up or use whatever
 editor they prefer. Many users (such as myself) have .vscode in a global
 gitignore expressly so it doesn't need to be added to every project.

 A lot of people are using a frontend framework, that won't be covered
 by our gitignore, and this framework might itself want to set up a
 gitignore.

 The biggest problem for me is that it would just be a maintenance
 burden.

 Cheers,
 Tom


 On Fri, 10 Mar 2023 at 16:01, Bogdan Barna  wrote:

> Just want to say that I agree with Cory. Being a non-core
> feature/issue, I don't see a reason of why not to re-evaluate the "denied"
> decisions.
>
> On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 9:11:03 AM UTC+2 Cory Zue wrote:
>
>> Is there a more nuanced discussion of this issue anywhere? The
>> reasons stated in the linked PR that it's "not for the project template 
>> to
>> provide configuration for source code management tools" feels more like 
>> an
>> opinion than a fact.
>>
>>  I know one of the goals that emerged from recent discussions was how
>> to get more wide adoption of the Django project. This strikes me as one 
>> of
>> those simple little things that helps 95% of beginners and doesn't hurt 
>> the
>> remaining 5%. If you don't want a .gitignore file, then you're also
>> probably advanced enough to figure out how to build without it, or just
>> delete it.
>>
>>>