Re: ngettext_lazy and ngettext

[Maciek Olko]

It looks like Transifex uses [1] Unicode Language Plural Rules [2]. If they
are incorrect for Hebrew, maybe they should be fixed on Unicode side?

Regards,
Maciej

[1]
https://community.transifex.com/t/where-does-the-5-come-from-in-the-json-export-of-pluralized-strings/1389/2?u=m-aciek
[2]
http://www.unicode.org/cldr/charts/latest/supplemental/language_plural_rules.html

‪wt., 26 lis 2019 o 08:18 ‫אורי‬‎  napisał(a):‬

>
>
> On Tue, Nov 26, 2019 at 8:13 AM Matemática A3K 
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> ‪On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 6:26 AM ‫אורי‬‎  wrote:‬
>>
>>>
>>> אורי,
>>
>> OK, have in mind that a change of the number of plurals for a language is
>> kind (if not) of an API change for i18n - now you have to feed a different
>> input - and should be handled as such. There is no way of modifying your
>> code on an upgrade by the software distribution (the package).
>>
>> Did the script that I posted not do the job?
>>
>
> No offense, but I didn't try. As a Django user I don't expect Django to
> send me to install and run third party scripts that will keep my sites
> working when I upgrade Django. I also don't think there is need for 4
> plural forms in my .po files. I would like to keep using 2 plural forms as
> that makes more sense to me.
>
> I decided to keep using Django 2.1.
>
> --
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> 
> .
>

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django last version installation

[pip django]

I tried to install django last version 2.2.7 with python 3.8 but it's not 
worked.and this error message appear on the cmd No Module named pytz ,
I need help 

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Re: ngettext_lazy and ngettext

[אורי]

Hi Maciej,

I would not say the rules are incorrect. It depends on the case. In some
cases they might be correct and there might be 3, 4 or even more plural
forms. But in many other cases, two plural forms are enough. It depends on
the strings being translated. I think in most cases, two plural forms are
correct, like was in Django up to 2.1.

For example in weeks, there is a word in hebrew for "two weeks"
("שבועיים"), which is more correct than writing two words for two weeks ("2
שבועות"). But in other cases, there is not a specific word for "2
". In the case of Speedy Net for example, I used
function ngettext_lazy in a validator validating the number of characters
in a password or username. In these cases, only the plain plural form
should be used, and anyway the number given there is probable not 1 and
also not 2. It might be in some specific cases 6, 8 or 120, and there is no
specific plural form for that number of characters. The translation is just
using the Hebrew word for characters ("תווים"). Even if this number was 2,
it would have used the same word, but there is a singular word for 1.

אורי
u...@speedy.net


On Tue, Nov 26, 2019 at 1:29 PM Maciek Olko  wrote:

> It looks like Transifex uses [1] Unicode Language Plural Rules [2]. If
> they are incorrect for Hebrew, maybe they should be fixed on Unicode side?
>
> Regards,
> Maciej
>
> [1]
> https://community.transifex.com/t/where-does-the-5-come-from-in-the-json-export-of-pluralized-strings/1389/2?u=m-aciek
> [2]
> http://www.unicode.org/cldr/charts/latest/supplemental/language_plural_rules.html
>
> ‪wt., 26 lis 2019 o 08:18 ‫אורי‬‎  napisał(a):‬
>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 26, 2019 at 8:13 AM Matemática A3K 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ‪On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 6:26 AM ‫אורי‬‎  wrote:‬
>>>

 אורי,
>>>
>>> OK, have in mind that a change of the number of plurals for a language
>>> is kind (if not) of an API change for i18n - now you have to feed a
>>> different input - and should be handled as such. There is no way of
>>> modifying your code on an upgrade by the software distribution (the
>>> package).
>>>
>>> Did the script that I posted not do the job?
>>>
>>
>> No offense, but I didn't try. As a Django user I don't expect Django to
>> send me to install and run third party scripts that will keep my sites
>> working when I upgrade Django. I also don't think there is need for 4
>> plural forms in my .po files. I would like to keep using 2 plural forms as
>> that makes more sense to me.
>>
>> I decided to keep using Django 2.1.
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/CABD5YeH%3DwqNcWsu5_Lzab39qmcDPY%2BymGD2k-R1mbr%3DEiCvbnQ%40mail.gmail.com
>> 
>> .
>>
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> 
> .
>

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Re: django last version installation

[Marek Zdybel]

I'm not sure but maybe try use pip install pytz

wt., 26 lis 2019, 13:42 użytkownik pip django 
napisał:

> I tried to install django last version 2.2.7 with python 3.8 but it's not
> worked.and this error message appear on the cmd No Module named pytz ,
> I need help
>
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> 
> .
>

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Re: ngettext_lazy and ngettext

[Maciek Olko]

Hi Uri,

Regarding your past questions,

If you want I can try to spend some time to help solving this specific
> problem. I would start with documenting this issue in the release notes of
> Django 2.2. I already opened a new task #30945
>  for documenting this issue.
> How do I proceed from here? I think I never submitted changes directly to
> Django Git & documentation. Where are the source code of the release notes
> documentation and how do I change them?


I think that following articles might be helpful:
* Writing documentation [1],
* Submitting patches [2].

Source file for 2.2 release notes is docs/releases/2.2.txt [3].

Regards,
Maciej

[1]
https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/stable/internals/contributing/writing-documentation/
[2]
https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/stable/internals/contributing/writing-code/submitting-patches/
[3] https://github.com/django/django/blob/master/docs/releases/2.2.txt

‪wt., 26 lis 2019 o 13:55 ‫אורי‬‎  napisał(a):‬

> Hi Maciej,
>
> I would not say the rules are incorrect. It depends on the case. In some
> cases they might be correct and there might be 3, 4 or even more plural
> forms. But in many other cases, two plural forms are enough. It depends on
> the strings being translated. I think in most cases, two plural forms are
> correct, like was in Django up to 2.1.
>
> For example in weeks, there is a word in hebrew for "two weeks"
> ("שבועיים"), which is more correct than writing two words for two weeks ("2
> שבועות"). But in other cases, there is not a specific word for "2
> ". In the case of Speedy Net for example, I used
> function ngettext_lazy in a validator validating the number of characters
> in a password or username. In these cases, only the plain plural form
> should be used, and anyway the number given there is probable not 1 and
> also not 2. It might be in some specific cases 6, 8 or 120, and there is no
> specific plural form for that number of characters. The translation is just
> using the Hebrew word for characters ("תווים"). Even if this number was 2,
> it would have used the same word, but there is a singular word for 1.
>
> אורי
> u...@speedy.net
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 26, 2019 at 1:29 PM Maciek Olko  wrote:
>
>> It looks like Transifex uses [1] Unicode Language Plural Rules [2]. If
>> they are incorrect for Hebrew, maybe they should be fixed on Unicode side?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Maciej
>>
>> [1]
>> https://community.transifex.com/t/where-does-the-5-come-from-in-the-json-export-of-pluralized-strings/1389/2?u=m-aciek
>> [2]
>> http://www.unicode.org/cldr/charts/latest/supplemental/language_plural_rules.html
>>
>> ‪wt., 26 lis 2019 o 08:18 ‫אורי‬‎  napisał(a):‬
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Nov 26, 2019 at 8:13 AM Matemática A3K 
>>> wrote:
>>>


 ‪On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 6:26 AM ‫אורי‬‎  wrote:‬

>
> אורי,

 OK, have in mind that a change of the number of plurals for a language
 is kind (if not) of an API change for i18n - now you have to feed a
 different input - and should be handled as such. There is no way of
 modifying your code on an upgrade by the software distribution (the
 package).

 Did the script that I posted not do the job?

>>>
>>> No offense, but I didn't try. As a Django user I don't expect Django to
>>> send me to install and run third party scripts that will keep my sites
>>> working when I upgrade Django. I also don't think there is need for 4
>>> plural forms in my .po files. I would like to keep using 2 plural forms as
>>> that makes more sense to me.
>>>
>>> I decided to keep using Django 2.1.
>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> Groups "Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>> an email to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/CABD5YeH%3DwqNcWsu5_Lzab39qmcDPY%2BymGD2k-R1mbr%3DEiCvbnQ%40mail.gmail.com
>>> 
>>> .
>>>
>> --
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>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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>> 
>> .
>>
> --
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> "Django develope

Re: django last version installation

[Adam Johnson]

Hi!

I think you've found the wrong mailing list for this post. This mailing
list is for the development of Django itself, not for support using Django.
This means the discussions of bugs and features in Django itself, rather
than in your code using it. People on this list are unlikely to answer your
support query with their limited time and energy. Read more on the mailing
lists at https://www.djangoproject.com/community/

For support, please use the NEW Django forum at
https://forum.djangoproject.com , django-users mailing list, or IRC #django
on Freenode, or a site like Stack Overflow. There are people out there
willing to help on those channels, but they might not respond if you don't
ask your question well. Stack Overflow's question guide can help you frame
it well: https://stackoverflow.com/help/how-to-ask .

Also if you haven't read it, please take a look at Django's Code of
Conduct: https://www.djangoproject.com/conduct/ . These are our "ground
rules" for working well as a community, and will help you get the most out
of Django and our fantastic community.

Thanks for your understanding,

Adam

On Tue, 26 Nov 2019 at 12:58, Marek Zdybel  wrote:

> I'm not sure but maybe try use pip install pytz
>
> wt., 26 lis 2019, 13:42 użytkownik pip django 
> napisał:
>
>> I tried to install django last version 2.2.7 with python 3.8 but it's not
>> worked.and this error message appear on the cmd No Module named pytz
>> ,
>> I need help
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/68e6a783-90ec-4399-aea6-35bd99ab8173%40googlegroups.com
>> 
>> .
>>
> --
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> email to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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> 
> .
>


-- 
Adam

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Re: ngettext_lazy and ngettext

[אורי]

Thanks you, Maciej.

I read the links and came across
https://media.djangoproject.com/foundation/icla.pdf, where I decided not so
sign it yet now. Especially not for submitting documentation of Django 2.2
release notes. If you or any of the Django developers want to document this
issue, please contact me in private and I can try to help. I decided for
now not to submit a pull request directly myself since it's too complicated
for me right now. I can live with this issue undocumented in the release
notes and anyway it affects only specific languages where changes have been
made in Django 2.2. Other languages might have been affected in other
versions of Django, I'm not sure.

אורי
u...@speedy.net


On Tue, Nov 26, 2019 at 3:29 PM Maciek Olko  wrote:

> Hi Uri,
>
> Regarding your past questions,
>
> If you want I can try to spend some time to help solving this specific
>> problem. I would start with documenting this issue in the release notes of
>> Django 2.2. I already opened a new task #30945
>>  for documenting this
>> issue. How do I proceed from here? I think I never submitted changes
>> directly to Django Git & documentation. Where are the source code of the
>> release notes documentation and how do I change them?
>
>
> I think that following articles might be helpful:
> * Writing documentation [1],
> * Submitting patches [2].
>
> Source file for 2.2 release notes is docs/releases/2.2.txt [3].
>
> Regards,
> Maciej
>
> [1]
> https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/stable/internals/contributing/writing-documentation/
> [2]
> https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/stable/internals/contributing/writing-code/submitting-patches/
> [3] https://github.com/django/django/blob/master/docs/releases/2.2.txt
>
> ‪wt., 26 lis 2019 o 13:55 ‫אורי‬‎  napisał(a):‬
>
>> Hi Maciej,
>>
>> I would not say the rules are incorrect. It depends on the case. In some
>> cases they might be correct and there might be 3, 4 or even more plural
>> forms. But in many other cases, two plural forms are enough. It depends on
>> the strings being translated. I think in most cases, two plural forms are
>> correct, like was in Django up to 2.1.
>>
>> For example in weeks, there is a word in hebrew for "two weeks"
>> ("שבועיים"), which is more correct than writing two words for two weeks ("2
>> שבועות"). But in other cases, there is not a specific word for "2
>> ". In the case of Speedy Net for example, I used
>> function ngettext_lazy in a validator validating the number of characters
>> in a password or username. In these cases, only the plain plural form
>> should be used, and anyway the number given there is probable not 1 and
>> also not 2. It might be in some specific cases 6, 8 or 120, and there is no
>> specific plural form for that number of characters. The translation is just
>> using the Hebrew word for characters ("תווים"). Even if this number was 2,
>> it would have used the same word, but there is a singular word for 1.
>>
>> אורי
>> u...@speedy.net
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 26, 2019 at 1:29 PM Maciek Olko 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> It looks like Transifex uses [1] Unicode Language Plural Rules [2]. If
>>> they are incorrect for Hebrew, maybe they should be fixed on Unicode side?
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Maciej
>>>
>>> [1]
>>> https://community.transifex.com/t/where-does-the-5-come-from-in-the-json-export-of-pluralized-strings/1389/2?u=m-aciek
>>> [2]
>>> http://www.unicode.org/cldr/charts/latest/supplemental/language_plural_rules.html
>>>
>>> ‪wt., 26 lis 2019 o 08:18 ‫אורי‬‎  napisał(a):‬
>>>


 On Tue, Nov 26, 2019 at 8:13 AM Matemática A3K <
 matematica@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> ‪On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 6:26 AM ‫אורי‬‎  wrote:‬
>
>>
>> אורי,
>
> OK, have in mind that a change of the number of plurals for a language
> is kind (if not) of an API change for i18n - now you have to feed a
> different input - and should be handled as such. There is no way of
> modifying your code on an upgrade by the software distribution (the
> package).
>
> Did the script that I posted not do the job?
>

 No offense, but I didn't try. As a Django user I don't expect Django to
 send me to install and run third party scripts that will keep my sites
 working when I upgrade Django. I also don't think there is need for 4
 plural forms in my .po files. I would like to keep using 2 plural forms as
 that makes more sense to me.

 I decided to keep using Django 2.1.

 --
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Re: ngettext_lazy and ngettext

[Shai Berger]

On Tue, 26 Nov 2019 12:28:45 +0100
Maciek Olko  wrote:

> It looks like Transifex uses [1] Unicode Language Plural Rules [2].
> If they are incorrect for Hebrew, maybe they should be fixed on
> Unicode side?
> 

Just for the record, they are indeed wrong -- not in the sense that has
sparked this thread (there are indeed 4 forms) but in the rules (the
"many" rule should say "2 < n <= 10", not "n % 10 = 0"). I'm looking
into fixing it.

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Re: ngettext_lazy and ngettext

[Matemática A3K]

On Tue, Nov 26, 2019 at 12:51 PM Shai Berger  wrote:

> On Tue, 26 Nov 2019 12:28:45 +0100
> Maciek Olko  wrote:
>
> > It looks like Transifex uses [1] Unicode Language Plural Rules [2].
> > If they are incorrect for Hebrew, maybe they should be fixed on
> > Unicode side?
> >
>
> Just for the record, they are indeed wrong -- not in the sense that has
> sparked this thread (there are indeed 4 forms) but in the rules (the
> "many" rule should say "2 < n <= 10", not "n % 10 = 0"). I'm looking
> into fixing it.
>

Django's?

The problem raised from Django sync'ing with Transifex without any notice
of plural rules changes. These changes led sometimes to break Django's
translations, other times third-party translations and other times both.

For what I have understood, this is a script-driven process. This has to be
changed if Django is going to maintain the plural rules "independently",
because they will get overwritten in the next sync.

Maintaining the plural rules "independently" should be the best way to
handle this - IMO - although the project may not have the resources for all
the languages it provides translations. This would be sync'ing "only
strings", not plural rules (forms and equations).

Changes in the number of plurals for a language should be included in the
Release Notes, as it is changing the i18n API.

Changes in the plural equation doesn't seem necessary to me (to include in
the RN) as they would be for the better - given the number of plurals is
the same, the new equation should provide an improvement of the results
with the same input - - well, mentioning them won't hurt anybody but it
isn't necessary :)

If Django detects a catalog with a different number of plurals than its
main, then it won't be merged and a warning should be shown (something like
"Catalog not merged to prevent inconsistencies due to a different number of
plurals than the main catalog. See
https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/2.2/topics/i18n/translation/#pluralization";).
The documentation should contain information on how to increase the number
of plurals seamlessly of your catalog to match Django's (the most likely
case).

If an inconsistency is seen due to a plural equation, it should be reported
as a bug. As it is not sync'ed anymore, it can be fixed for Django. The
documentation should contain information on how to fix it immediately for
your project while the fix is done at the "Django level".

This is under the assumptions that:
- There is one plural equation which can describe entirely the language's
plurals
- The policy in
https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/2.2/topics/i18n/translation/#pluralization
- final note, is correct

Giving a convenient complete control of locales persistent to upgrades - a
"collectlocales" command - can be left for later or a third-party package.

Do you think this a viable way to solve the issue?


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> .
>

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Re: ngettext_lazy and ngettext

[Matemática A3K]

‪On Tue, Nov 26, 2019 at 2:18 AM ‫אורי‬‎  wrote:‬

>
>
> On Tue, Nov 26, 2019 at 8:13 AM Matemática A3K 
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> ‪On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 6:26 AM ‫אורי‬‎  wrote:‬
>>
>>>
>>> אורי,
>>
>> OK, have in mind that a change of the number of plurals for a language is
>> kind (if not) of an API change for i18n - now you have to feed a different
>> input - and should be handled as such. There is no way of modifying your
>> code on an upgrade by the software distribution (the package).
>>
>> Did the script that I posted not do the job?
>>
>
> No offense, but I didn't try. As a Django user I don't expect Django to
> send me to install and run third party scripts that will keep my sites
> working when I upgrade Django. I also don't think there is need for 4
> plural forms in my .po files. I would like to keep using 2 plural forms as
> that makes more sense to me.
>
> I decided to keep using Django 2.1.
>

Just for the records, that was not Django, that was me, helping you. No
problem, as you don't want it, I will recycle it to not waste the time and
energy and put it in another thing :)

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> 
> .
>

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Re: ngettext_lazy and ngettext

[אורי]

On Wed, Nov 27, 2019 at 8:40 AM Matemática A3K 
wrote:

>
> Changes in the number of plurals for a language should be included in the
> Release Notes, as it is changing the i18n API.
>

Thank you, I think it's very important to document such changes.

Please notice, I think changing the rules should also be documented, for
example changing from "n % 10 = 0" to "2 < n <= 10". Since it would also
affect the API and change the plural form used for specific numbers.

אורי

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