Re: Make Development More Accessible

['1337 Shadow Hacker' via Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)]

Given the number of Open Pull request, does Django craves more contribution 
quantity, or quality ? Not the same focus

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Re: Proposing development discussion forums

[James Bennett]

I'm not necessarily opposed to this, but I am a bit skeptical of the
long-term archival utility of forums, in large part due to my experience as
a moderator of some decent-sized ones. I think making them useful for that
purpose is going to require about the same level of manual curation as,
say, the wiki on code.djangoproject.com does now.

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Re: Proposing development discussion forums

[Lee Trout]

I’ve moderated a couple small-medium forums (2k-8k) members as well as
participated in many online.

I am in favor of moving to a forum system for a lot of reasons. I’d be
curious who would be the community manager(s) (not moderators per se) and
if the tone would be similar to the docs and wiki or closer to the IRC
channel and a bit relaxed. It is potentially an opportunity to curate a lot
of great community information similar to the PyCoders newsletter with
advanced tutorials, QA on popular third party libs like storages or getting
started with the  cookiecutter layout.

I agree with James- it will take a moderation team and some manual work to
keep it moving smoothly.

I know PHPBB is the de facto board system but I’ll toss out a hat tip to
XenForo.com. It’s in use for Advrider.com and performs very well.

On Mon, Aug 12, 2019 at 5:04 AM James Bennett  wrote:

> I'm not necessarily opposed to this, but I am a bit skeptical of the
> long-term archival utility of forums, in large part due to my experience as
> a moderator of some decent-sized ones. I think making them useful for that
> purpose is going to require about the same level of manual curation as,
> say, the wiki on code.djangoproject.com does now.
>
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> 
> .
>

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Re: Django LTS support time

[Patryk Zawadzki]

W dniu sobota, 10 sierpnia 2019 18:19:07 UTC+2 użytkownik Uri napisał:
>
> Thanks for your feedback. Eventually I found out that the Django Crispy 
> Forms issue was a CSS bug in our CSS code. Anyway not related to Crispy 
> Forms, it may take a lot of time and effort to upgrade Django for us, and I 
> would prefer to keep using Django 1.11 as much as we can.
>

If upgrading looks like a lot of work today, it will be even more work in a 
year or two. Today a single dependency may be blocking you from the 
upgrade. Unless you have a contract with that dependency's maintainer, 
there's no guarantee of the situation ever improving. Soon you may not be 
able to add a dependency because it will require a newer version of Django. 
Anecdotal evidence: we have an internal policy of not supporting Django 
versions older than the current LTS unless we have someone paying for the 
effort.

As for the LTS policy: I don't think the current one cuts it. There are 
companies who are fine with upgrading once every two years but these 
companies could probably also do it every release or two. Then there are 
companies who want LTS support and these are often projects that need to 
run largely unmodified for five to ten years. I don't think the current LTS 
support helps them in any way. I think a better option (for both sides) 
would be if the foundation offered paid support for the releases nominated 
as LTS and if that support became more expensive every year (to compensate 
for having to maintain outdated software and to motivate the company to 
eventually allocate the budget to a proper upgrade). Paid support could 
also include features like early vulnerability disclosure and instructions 
for determining whether an issue was exploitable in a particular project.

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Creating a new "Triage & Review Team"

[Carlton Gibson]

Hi. 

Part of the discussion on the "Dissolving Core" DEP was about have a some 
kind of status, and permissions that go with it, for the group of 
contributors who are actively involved in Triaging tickets and Reviewing 
PRs on GitHub. 

Ideally we wanted to separate this from "having the commit-bit", so not 
equivalent to "Write" permissions on GitHub, which were to be reduced from 
the whole of "Django Core" as was (as currently is) to the "Mergers" who 
would be the Fellows plus small number of others. 

There was some suggestion of granting Write access but then using 
"Protected Branches" + "Code Ownership" features of GitHub to make this 
work. 
That's a bit too complex for my taste, and the UI on it isn't great, having 
tried it. 
(You end up with horrible red buttons all over until a code owner 
approved... Yuck.)  

Then GitHub introduced[1] a Triage permission between the existing Read and 
Write permissions. 

[1] 
https://help.github.com/en/articles/repository-permission-levels-for-an-organization

This looked great but — for me — was lacking a key feature of being able to 
"Request a Review", 
a handy button on the top-right of PRs, which if you have Write permissions 
you can put a user name
in to say, "hey, can you please look at this". 

I've been making comments left, right and centre about this lack, and it 
seems that GitHub will be adjusting
the Triage role to add the "Request a Review" permission. 

At which point I think it serves our needs quite well™. 
(Even without that change it's probably what we need to use but with it 
being added, all the better...)

As such I'd like to create a "Triage & Review Team", give it the Triage 
permission, and begin inviting people. 

* I'd like to invite small numbers to begin. Just to check it does serve. 
* I think the idea was to be more liberal than Django Core, so invite more 
as we spin up. 
* And membership was meant to be dependent on activity, so we could ask 
folks to say if they were going to continue or step down, say each major 
release cycle.

I realised the other day that Nick Pope wasn't a member of the Django Org, 
because he's not part of "Django Core"—when I suggested he use 
the "Request a Review" button and found he couldn't. This struck me as a 
little absurd: if we weren't going to dissolve it, Nick should definitely 
be part of the old "Django Core". As such, I suggest create the team, and 
inviting Nick as the first member just to see how it goes. 

Can I ask if that seems sensible to all/some?

Thanks. 

Kind Regards,

Carlton

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Re: Creating a new "Triage & Review Team"

[Carlton Gibson]

Oh, one more thing. I'd like to make this a "Public" team. I think there 
should be some visibility and recognition for the folks who work so hard on 
keeping Django strong. 

As part of that I'd add it to the Teams list on djangoproject.com, and 
maintain a list of previous members, for those who had stepped down. 

C. 

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Re: Django LTS support time

[Kye Russell]

IIRC such a service could threaten the DSF’a nonprofit / charity status. There 
are certainly third parties that offer this, including OS distributions that 
will backport security fixes as has been mentioned.  

Kye Russell
Sent from my iPhone

> On 12 Aug 2019, at 11:34 pm, Patryk Zawadzki  wrote:
> 
> W dniu sobota, 10 sierpnia 2019 18:19:07 UTC+2 użytkownik Uri napisał:
>> 
>> Thanks for your feedback. Eventually I found out that the Django Crispy 
>> Forms issue was a CSS bug in our CSS code. Anyway not related to Crispy 
>> Forms, it may take a lot of time and effort to upgrade Django for us, and I 
>> would prefer to keep using Django 1.11 as much as we can.
> 
> If upgrading looks like a lot of work today, it will be even more work in a 
> year or two. Today a single dependency may be blocking you from the upgrade. 
> Unless you have a contract with that dependency's maintainer, there's no 
> guarantee of the situation ever improving. Soon you may not be able to add a 
> dependency because it will require a newer version of Django. Anecdotal 
> evidence: we have an internal policy of not supporting Django versions older 
> than the current LTS unless we have someone paying for the effort.
> 
> As for the LTS policy: I don't think the current one cuts it. There are 
> companies who are fine with upgrading once every two years but these 
> companies could probably also do it every release or two. Then there are 
> companies who want LTS support and these are often projects that need to run 
> largely unmodified for five to ten years. I don't think the current LTS 
> support helps them in any way. I think a better option (for both sides) would 
> be if the foundation offered paid support for the releases nominated as LTS 
> and if that support became more expensive every year (to compensate for 
> having to maintain outdated software and to motivate the company to 
> eventually allocate the budget to a proper upgrade). Paid support could also 
> include features like early vulnerability disclosure and instructions for 
> determining whether an issue was exploitable in a particular project.
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Re: Django LTS support time

['1337 Shadow Hacker' via Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)]

This reminds me when m$ agreed to sponsor an open source rewrite of one of 
their languages, and asked the devs to reproduce the same bugs that were in the 
closed source version, and then went on and sold that as a feature.

If there are people who are willing to maintain old versions for money that's 
fine, and could certainly be done under a non-profit / charity it's just about 
not keeping any benefit for the organization.

But it certainly goes against everything I would know about CI/CD (I mean as 
practice, not as tools).

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Re: Django LTS support time

['1337 Shadow Hacker' via Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)]

Actually I'm pretty sure it could be done even if DSF kept a profit, to 
re-inject it into other developments for exemple. AFAIK the major difference 
between non-profit and company is that you don't own it and as such you cannot 
take dividends out of it personally. IMHO everybody would benefit if DSF did 
more commerce and was stronger by that mean. I could sing an ode to commerce 
but that would be much off-topic.
אורי if you're looking for commercial extension you can certainly hire someone 
for that for the time being, Patryk's company seems to have willing developers, 
or hire someone to face the debt in your codebase, which Patryk's company will 
probably recommend for the same budget. Sorry for being so binary but unless 
another idea emerges from this topic...  it seems pretty cornered at this 
point, sorry for not being more helpful.

Best of luck

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Re: Proposing development discussion forums

[Andrew Godwin]

I agree James - forums tend to age slightly worse than mailing lists for 
archival content, but I'm hoping the improved experience in the moment 
makes up for it.

Plus, our current mailing list archive depends on a service from Google, 
and I trust those less these days (though I hope Google Groups is probably 
going to be around for a long time).

Andrew

On Monday, August 12, 2019 at 4:04:23 AM UTC-5, James Bennett wrote:
>
> I'm not necessarily opposed to this, but I am a bit skeptical of the 
> long-term archival utility of forums, in large part due to my experience as 
> a moderator of some decent-sized ones. I think making them useful for that 
> purpose is going to require about the same level of manual curation as, 
> say, the wiki on code.djangoproject.com does now.
>

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