Terms for database replication

[Tom Evans]

Please revert this change as soon as possible.

If the project has become so PC sensitive that the word "slave" is no
longer permitted to be uttered, then "replica" is an alternate term,
but "primary" is not.

Have you ever set up "primary-primary replication"? No, neither have
I. Master-master replication is common, please do not take it upon
yourselves to re-program our vocabulary.

I have a primary master, I do not have a primary primary!

Cheers

Tom

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Re: Terms for database replication

[Cal Leeming [Simplicity Media Ltd]]

For once, I'm going to +1 you Tom.

Cal


On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 2:52 PM, Tom Evans  wrote:

> Please revert this change as soon as possible.
>
> If the project has become so PC sensitive that the word "slave" is no
> longer permitted to be uttered, then "replica" is an alternate term,
> but "primary" is not.
>
> Have you ever set up "primary-primary replication"? No, neither have
> I. Master-master replication is common, please do not take it upon
> yourselves to re-program our vocabulary.
>
> I have a primary master, I do not have a primary primary!
>
> Cheers
>
> Tom
>
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Re: Terms for database replication

[Justin Holmes]

I think I agree that "primary" is a bad choice.  Can you suggest something
other than master?  Something that will address the concerns posed in the
past two threads?

I saw that someone suggested "leader" and "follower" - I haven't thought
through whether I find this more palatable.


On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 11:15 AM, Cal Leeming [Simplicity Media Ltd] <
cal.leem...@simplicitymedialtd.co.uk> wrote:

> For once, I'm going to +1 you Tom.
>
> Cal
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 2:52 PM, Tom Evans 
> wrote:
>
>> Please revert this change as soon as possible.
>>
>> If the project has become so PC sensitive that the word "slave" is no
>> longer permitted to be uttered, then "replica" is an alternate term,
>> but "primary" is not.
>>
>> Have you ever set up "primary-primary replication"? No, neither have
>> I. Master-master replication is common, please do not take it upon
>> yourselves to re-program our vocabulary.
>>
>> I have a primary master, I do not have a primary primary!
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Tom
>>
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Re: Changing development server threads type.

[Malcolm Box]

On Wednesday, 4 June 2014 17:41:53 UTC+1, Ramiro Morales wrote:
>
> For this particular change I'd go with what Moayad proposes but 
> without the backward compatibility command line switch (assuming it 
> actually enhance the reloadind responsiveness). 
>
>
>
I've tried the 1-liner version here on Mac OS X 10.9 and it provides a 
massive speedup to reload. I haven't noticed any adverse effects.

So I'd vote wholeheartedly for this change.

Malcolm 

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Re: Terms for database replication

[Malcolm Box]

FWIW, I think the main objection is to the word "slave", not to "master". 
Otherwise we'll be renaming the git branches soon...

So "master" / "replica" would work.

Malcolm

On Thursday, 5 June 2014 16:26:07 UTC+1, Justin Holmes wrote:
>
> I think I agree that "primary" is a bad choice.  Can you suggest something 
> other than master?  Something that will address the concerns posed in the 
> past two threads?
>
> I saw that someone suggested "leader" and "follower" - I haven't thought 
> through whether I find this more palatable.
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 11:15 AM, Cal Leeming [Simplicity Media Ltd] <
> cal.l...@simplicitymedialtd.co.uk > wrote:
>
>> For once, I'm going to +1 you Tom.
>>
>> Cal
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 2:52 PM, Tom Evans > > wrote:
>>
>>> Please revert this change as soon as possible.
>>>
>>> If the project has become so PC sensitive that the word "slave" is no
>>> longer permitted to be uttered, then "replica" is an alternate term,
>>> but "primary" is not.
>>>
>>> Have you ever set up "primary-primary replication"? No, neither have
>>> I. Master-master replication is common, please do not take it upon
>>> yourselves to re-program our vocabulary.
>>>
>>> I have a primary master, I do not have a primary primary!
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>
>>> Tom
>>>
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>>  
>> 
>> .
>>
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>
>
>
> -- 
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> Chief Chocobo Breeder, slashRoot
>
> slashRoot: Coffee House and Tech Dojo
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Re: Terms for database replication

[Justin Holmes]

I don't want to devolve completely into an etymological circlejerk here,
but my sense is that "master" in the VCS sense is like "master key," rather
than describing the interpersonal relationship of involuntary servitude.


On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 11:53 AM, Malcolm Box  wrote:

> FWIW, I think the main objection is to the word "slave", not to "master".
> Otherwise we'll be renaming the git branches soon...
>
> So "master" / "replica" would work.
>
> Malcolm
>
>
> On Thursday, 5 June 2014 16:26:07 UTC+1, Justin Holmes wrote:
>
>> I think I agree that "primary" is a bad choice.  Can you suggest
>> something other than master?  Something that will address the concerns
>> posed in the past two threads?
>>
>> I saw that someone suggested "leader" and "follower" - I haven't thought
>> through whether I find this more palatable.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 11:15 AM, Cal Leeming [Simplicity Media Ltd] <
>> cal.l...@simplicitymedialtd.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> For once, I'm going to +1 you Tom.
>>>
>>> Cal
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 2:52 PM, Tom Evans 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Please revert this change as soon as possible.

 If the project has become so PC sensitive that the word "slave" is no
 longer permitted to be uttered, then "replica" is an alternate term,
 but "primary" is not.

 Have you ever set up "primary-primary replication"? No, neither have
 I. Master-master replication is common, please do not take it upon
 yourselves to re-program our vocabulary.

 I have a primary master, I do not have a primary primary!

 Cheers

 Tom

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>>
>>
>>
>> --
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>> Chief Chocobo Breeder, slashRoot
>>
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>> 845.633.8330
>>
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Re: Terms for database replication

[Flavio Curella]

I just want to clarify a few misunderstanding that I keep seeing popping up.

1. If you read the original 
ticket, https://code.djangoproject.com/ticket/22667 you will notice that my 
original concern wasn't the word 'master', nor the word 'slave', but the 
usage of both terms together. What basically I wanted to do was renaming 
that specific database configuration known as master/slave to something 
else. Turns out, primary/replica was already there.
2. Contrary to popular belief, the words 'master' and 'slave' have not been 
banned from the documentation.
3. I sure have no intention or hope to change the English language used by 
billions of people. That's kind of a big task to accomplish.
4. I neither have any intention of telling people what they should use. By 
all means, use whatever you feel like it's best. The intention here was to 
change just what Django uses in its docs.


On Thursday, June 5, 2014 8:52:57 AM UTC-5, Tom Evans wrote:
>
> Please revert this change as soon as possible. 
>
> If the project has become so PC sensitive that the word "slave" is no 
> longer permitted to be uttered, then "replica" is an alternate term, 
> but "primary" is not. 
>
> Have you ever set up "primary-primary replication"? No, neither have 
> I. Master-master replication is common, please do not take it upon 
> yourselves to re-program our vocabulary. 
>
> I have a primary master, I do not have a primary primary! 
>
> Cheers 
>
> Tom 
>

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Re: Terms for database replication

[Unai Zalakain]

Greetings!

I saw that someone suggested "leader" and "follower" - I haven't 
thought through whether I find this more palatable.


Well, as an individualist I am, I find those terms quite uninviting too.  
Hoping to downplay it a bit, what about BDSM terms "Dominant" and 
"Submissive", "Dom" and "Sub" or "Top" and "Bottom"?


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Re: Terms for database replication

[Alex Gaynor]

Hi everybody.

The Django core developers have made our decision on the terminology we're
going to use; I'd ask that you stop using django-developers to debate this
further.

Alex


On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 10:43 AM, Unai Zalakain 
wrote:

> Greetings!
>
>
>  I saw that someone suggested "leader" and "follower" - I haven't thought
>> through whether I find this more palatable.
>>
>
> Well, as an individualist I am, I find those terms quite uninviting too.
>  Hoping to downplay it a bit, what about BDSM terms "Dominant" and
> "Submissive", "Dom" and "Sub" or "Top" and "Bottom"?
>
> --
> unai
>



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Re: Terms for database replication

[Cal Leeming [Simplicity Media Ltd]]

Yup, the BDFL is still strong in this one ;)

Cal


On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 6:50 PM, Alex Gaynor  wrote:

> Hi everybody.
>
> The Django core developers have made our decision on the terminology we're
> going to use; I'd ask that you stop using django-developers to debate this
> further.
>
> Alex
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 10:43 AM, Unai Zalakain 
> wrote:
>
>> Greetings!
>>
>>
>>  I saw that someone suggested "leader" and "follower" - I haven't thought
>>> through whether I find this more palatable.
>>>
>>
>> Well, as an individualist I am, I find those terms quite uninviting too.
>>  Hoping to downplay it a bit, what about BDSM terms "Dominant" and
>> "Submissive", "Dom" and "Sub" or "Top" and "Bottom"?
>>
>> --
>> unai
>>
>
>
>
> --
> "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right
> to say it." -- Evelyn Beatrice Hall (summarizing Voltaire)
> "The people's good is the highest law." -- Cicero
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Re: Terms for database replication

[Tom Evans]

On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 5:08 PM, Justin Holmes  wrote:
> I don't want to devolve completely into an etymological circlejerk here, but
> my sense is that "master" in the VCS sense is like "master key," rather than
> describing the interpersonal relationship of involuntary servitude.
>

And in databases, it means the connection on which you can "master"
records. Words have many meanings.

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Re: Terms for database replication

[Justin Holmes]

OK.  How about "canon" and "replica" ?


On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 2:59 PM, Tom Evans  wrote:

> On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 5:08 PM, Justin Holmes 
> wrote:
> > I don't want to devolve completely into an etymological circlejerk here,
> but
> > my sense is that "master" in the VCS sense is like "master key," rather
> than
> > describing the interpersonal relationship of involuntary servitude.
> >
>
> And in databases, it means the connection on which you can "master"
> records. Words have many meanings.
>
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Re: Terms for database replication

[Tom Evans]

On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 8:07 PM, Justin Holmes  wrote:
> OK.  How about "canon" and "replica" ?

I think we all get sent to the naughty step if we continue to discuss
this, so I will just say that "master" is being used as an adjective
in this context, it is the master database, or the master connection,
or indeed master branch. "Master" as in slavery is when it is used as
a noun. A few dictionary definition of the adjective "master":

"of or pertaining to a master from which copies are made: master film;
master matrix; master record;master tape."
"Being an original from which copies are made."
"an original from which copies can be made; especially :  a master
recording (as a magnetic tape)"

No other word is suitable because this word universally encapsulates
this concept, not just in IT, but in all aspects of all trades that
make copies of things.

Tom

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Re: Changing development server threads type.

[Moayad Mardini]

Thank you all for the feedback and thanks Tim for the merge.

I'm very interested in the idea of integrating with Gunicorn. We can take 
things slowly with that integration (starting as suggested with just an 
option to use Gunicorn with runserver command), and limit modifying the 
current server code to (very) minor modifications and bug fixings.  

Moayad

On Wednesday, June 4, 2014 5:29:38 PM UTC+3, Tim Graham wrote:
>
> I think we should try to move away from maintaining our own web server and 
> focus our efforts on trying to integration with others like gunicorn (
> #21978 ).
>
> On Tuesday, June 3, 2014 12:43:19 AM UTC-4, Moayad Mardini wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> The development server currently uses "non-daemon threads" for 
>> the socketserver, this has many bad side effects, as discussed in ticket 
>> #21773 ( https://code.djangoproject.com/ticket/21773 ).
>> The most annoying disadvantages of that are:
>> 1) Longer time to restart, because the sever has to make sure everything 
>> is finished before it can auto-reload, I don't think this is a good 
>> behavior because since it's a development server, you are always 
>> intentionally causing the auto-reload.
>> 2) If something goes wrong, like a bad view, there is no way to quit or 
>> restart the server, without manually killing its process from the OS.
>>
>> I made a patch: https://github.com/django/django/pull/2690 that changes 
>> the default threads type of the server to be daemon threads, and introduced 
>> a command option "runserver --nodaemon" to use non-daemon threads if the 
>> user still prefers that for one reason or another.
>>
>> I'm aware that the core developers are reluctant to merge any big change 
>> without a discussion first, so I'm asking about your opinions about that 
>> change and the patch.
>>
>> Thanks a lot,
>>
>> Moayad
>>
>

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Re: Terms for database replication

[Stan]

Alex,

With all due respect (I mean it),
The  perception from the outside is that you didn't put the Django project best 
interest on the first line in that PR / merge but something more personal (plus 
being a confusing merge in terms of computer science).

Cheers

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Re: Terms for database replication

[Alex Gaynor]

You're entitled to your own opinions, but you aren't entitled to your own
facts. The terms primary/replica are extremely well established, perhaps
even moreso than master/slave: https://imgur.com/a/pCp3d, the suggestion
that this is a gross violation of computer science nomenclature is pure
fiction. Further, the terms master/slave do not accurately describe the
setup the documentation is referring to, with replication schemes like
Wal-E (where a "slave" never even communicates with a "master") or
PostgreSQL's chained replication (where a "slave" can replicate to another
"slave"), the desire to cling to these misleading terms is simply
perplexing.

Alex


On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 1:42 PM, Stan  wrote:

> Alex,
>
> With all due respect (I mean it),
> The  perception from the outside is that you didn't put the Django project
> best interest on the first line in that PR / merge but something more
> personal (plus being a confusing merge in terms of computer science).
>
> Cheers
>
> --
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Re: Terms for database replication

[Aymeric Augustin]

Everyone,

It's exciting to see that much energy directed at Django! At the same time, 
it's sad to see it tragically misused.

If you want to help, there are currently 124 pull requests on GitHub, 133 
patches on Trac and 38 new tickets, all needing a review.

Any of these would be a better use of your time than this wording issue on 
which the core team has already made a final decision.

Thank you,

-- 
Aymeric.

[1] http://dashboard.djangoproject.com/

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Integrating polymorphic queries in the framework

[Luis Masuelli]

What about integrating polymorphic features in the ORM? It's like having 
the features of django-polymorphic but in the core.

The polymorphism could be acheved by:
1. Having contenttypes installed (this is a common pattern).
2. Specifying a root (first ancestor) model class like:

class MyParentModel(models.Model):
...

class Meta:
polymorphic = True
discriminant = "somefield" #it could default to 'content_type' 
if not specified. This field could be created.

To achieve the polymorphism a query could be like:

objects = 
MyParentModel.objects.filter(foo=bar,baz=clorch,...).polymorphic().more().calls().ifneeded()

Such method could complain if the contenttypes application is not 
installed; it could be based on many select_related() arguments (which are 
collected by tree-traversing the hierarchy, perhaps ignoring proxies).
Alternatively, this could be an util in the contenttypes app instead of the 
core apps:

objects = 
contenttypes.utils.polymorphic(MyParentModel.objects.filter(foo=bar,baz=clorch,...)).more().calls().ifneeded()

Sorry if this was posted before, but it's my first time here and I always 
asked why does Django not have this feature in the core.

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Re: Terms for database replication

[Justin Holmes]

Aymeric +1


On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 5:54 PM, Aymeric Augustin <
aymeric.augus...@polytechnique.org> wrote:

> Everyone,
>
> It's exciting to see that much energy directed at Django! At the same
> time, it's sad to see it tragically misused.
>
> If you want to help, there are currently 124 pull requests on GitHub, 133
> patches on Trac and 38 new tickets, all needing a review.
>
> Any of these would be a better use of your time than this wording issue on
> which the core team has already made a final decision.
>
> Thank you,
>
> --
> Aymeric.
>
> [1] http://dashboard.djangoproject.com/
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Django developers" group.
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> email to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/0FB52B62-DA6B-4727-9549-B0FB911FB096%40polytechnique.org
> .
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>



-- 
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Re: Integrating polymorphic queries in the framework

[Russell Keith-Magee]

On Fri, Jun 6, 2014 at 6:49 AM, Luis Masuelli 
wrote:

> What about integrating polymorphic features in the ORM? It's like having
> the features of django-polymorphic but in the core.
>
> The polymorphism could be acheved by:
> 1. Having contenttypes installed (this is a common pattern).
> 2. Specifying a root (first ancestor) model class like:
>
> class MyParentModel(models.Model):
> ...
>
> class Meta:
> polymorphic = True
> discriminant = "somefield" #it could default to 'content_type'
> if not specified. This field could be created.
>
> To achieve the polymorphism a query could be like:
>
> objects =
> MyParentModel.objects.filter(foo=bar,baz=clorch,...).polymorphic().more().calls().ifneeded()
>
> Such method could complain if the contenttypes application is not
> installed; it could be based on many select_related() arguments (which are
> collected by tree-traversing the hierarchy, perhaps ignoring proxies).
> Alternatively, this could be an util in the contenttypes app instead of
> the core apps:
>
> objects =
> contenttypes.utils.polymorphic(MyParentModel.objects.filter(foo=bar,baz=clorch,...)).more().calls().ifneeded()
>
> Sorry if this was posted before, but it's my first time here and I always
> asked why does Django not have this feature in the core.
>

If you set your time machine to go back 6 years, you'll find the original
discussions about model inheritance (implemented by Malcolm Tredinnick, and
I did a whole bunch of design/implementation review):

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/django-developers/fUCtNz6_qRI

In those discussions, we discussed the idea of introducing a CORBA-style
narrow() function (which is what you're talking about here) due to the need
to add and maintain extra columns, which aren't required for many
applications.

That said - the decision was at least partially in the interests of landing
*something*. We've had 6 years to digest that design, and a bunch of
internal API cleanups in the process. Personally, I'm not fundamentally
opposed to revisiting this issue - I've had a bunch of places where a
narrow() call would have been useful. However, I *would* want it to be an
opt-in feature of the model API.

But I'd also warn - this isn't a small undertaking. This is going to be a
big patch, and you're going to need a champion on the core team if you want
to make serious progress in getting this into core.

Yours,
Russ Magee %-)

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