Re: Self-request as a PMC member for COMDEV
Thank you Tison, I will take care of this. Best Regards, Swapnil M Mane On Thu, Feb 15, 2024 at 7:15 AM tison wrote: > > Hi, > > Repost this thread and cc Swapnil for more visibility. > > I'm reviewing and patching related repos now and noticed that this > request is pending. Since active committers are reviewing patches, > this is not in a rush. But I'm afraid that this email gets > overwhelmed. > > Rich Bowen wrote: > > Meanwhile, as per ComDev policy, your request to be a ComDev PMC member is > > approved. Swapnil, can you pull the lever, please. > > My profile for reference https://whimsy.apache.org/roster/committer/tison. > > Best, > tison. > > Rich Bowen 于2024年2月12日周一 23:23写道： > > > > On Feb 12, 2024, at 10:13 AM, tison wrote: > > > > > > According to the INFRA ticket [1], we'd better create the > > > apache/community GitHub repo first. > > > > > > I'm glad to execute the self-serve command but I'm yet to be a COMDEV > > > PMC member. I remember that in another thread, it's said that an > > > Apache Member can self-request to be a PMC member, so: > > > > > > * If any COMDEV PMC member can create the GitHub repo on self-serve > > > platform [2]; > > > * If it's possible, I'd like to self-request to be a PMC member and do > > > the set up by myself. > > > > > > Done. > > > > Meanwhile, as per ComDev policy, your request to be a ComDev PMC member is > > approved. Swapnil, can you pull the lever, please. > > > > Thanks. > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: Self-request as a PMC member for COMDEV
Thank you, Swapnil. Confirmed all set up. Best, tison. Swapnil M Mane 于2024年2月15日周四 16:07写道： > > Thank you Tison, I will take care of this. > > Best Regards, > Swapnil M Mane > > > > > > On Thu, Feb 15, 2024 at 7:15 AM tison wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > Repost this thread and cc Swapnil for more visibility. > > > > I'm reviewing and patching related repos now and noticed that this > > request is pending. Since active committers are reviewing patches, > > this is not in a rush. But I'm afraid that this email gets > > overwhelmed. > > > > Rich Bowen wrote: > > > Meanwhile, as per ComDev policy, your request to be a ComDev PMC member > > > is approved. Swapnil, can you pull the lever, please. > > > > My profile for reference https://whimsy.apache.org/roster/committer/tison. > > > > Best, > > tison. > > > > Rich Bowen 于2024年2月12日周一 23:23写道： > > > > > > On Feb 12, 2024, at 10:13 AM, tison wrote: > > > > > > > > According to the INFRA ticket [1], we'd better create the > > > > apache/community GitHub repo first. > > > > > > > > I'm glad to execute the self-serve command but I'm yet to be a COMDEV > > > > PMC member. I remember that in another thread, it's said that an > > > > Apache Member can self-request to be a PMC member, so: > > > > > > > > * If any COMDEV PMC member can create the GitHub repo on self-serve > > > > platform [2]; > > > > * If it's possible, I'd like to self-request to be a PMC member and do > > > > the set up by myself. > > > > > > > > > Done. > > > > > > Meanwhile, as per ComDev policy, your request to be a ComDev PMC member > > > is approved. Swapnil, can you pull the lever, please. > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > - > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: [jira] [Commented] (COMDEV-543) Sharpeners use cases
> >> "However, having an idea of what red flags we're looking for >> in a project can be a helpful way to start looking for places to mentor, >> and sharpen, our projects." >> >> That is absolutely the wrong message to give. Who is "we"? This kind of >> thing sets the tone of the working group as some kind of external policing >> / inspecting function. That will not help. > After a night’s sleep and pondering on what we’re doing here, I want to really encourage all of us to view this, in perpetuity, as a work in progress. If you see problems with the approach, please suggest solutions, rather than raging at the darkness. It’s ironic that the response to a list of things that a project can do wrong is to say that we’re doing it wrong, n’est pas? Having a list of “bad smells” is part of the process of getting to what work we want to do. It’s not the end product. What I’m really hoping for, out of this working group, is a unified approach that we can use to improve the Foundation as a whole, and sharpen one another, collectively, to make the ASF live up to its promise. That is always going to be aspirational. We’re not going to get there. Not for not trying, but because we are several thousand humans with egos and motivations. But we can work together to hone the edge a little. The work, for the moment, is achieving some rough consensus, and that involves respectful conversation. If we cannot sharpen ourselves, in this tiny group of folks who have known one another for a decade or more, we have very little chance of approaching a project full of strangers and trying to guide them.
[PR] Answer project-specific queries [comdev-working-groups]
rbowen opened a new pull request, #4: URL: https://github.com/apache/comdev-working-groups/pull/4 (no comment) -- This is an automated message from the Apache Git Service. To respond to the message, please log on to GitHub and use the URL above to go to the specific comment. To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For queries about this service, please contact Infrastructure at: us...@infra.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: [PR] Answer project-specific queries [comdev-working-groups]
tisonkun commented on code in PR #4: URL: https://github.com/apache/comdev-working-groups/pull/4#discussion_r1491212028 ## wg-welcome/templates/project-specific-help.md: ## @@ -0,0 +1,31 @@ +# Question about a specific project + +## Question + +Sometimes people post to dev@community with a question about a specific +Apache project. We are not the place for that question, and we need to +gently redirect, while offering a little additional information about +how the ASF works. + +## Answer + +Hi, _, thanks for your interest in Apache. Review Comment: Two comments here: 1. Maybe we can change the placeholder as parameters so such email can even be generated with parameters set. -- This is an automated message from the Apache Git Service. To respond to the message, please log on to GitHub and use the URL above to go to the specific comment. To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For queries about this service, please contact Infrastructure at: us...@infra.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: [PR] Answer project-specific queries [comdev-working-groups]
tisonkun commented on code in PR #4: URL: https://github.com/apache/comdev-working-groups/pull/4#discussion_r1491213101 ## wg-welcome/templates/project-specific-help.md: ## @@ -0,0 +1,31 @@ +# Question about a specific project + +## Question + +Sometimes people post to dev@community with a question about a specific +Apache project. We are not the place for that question, and we need to +gently redirect, while offering a little additional information about +how the ASF works. + +## Answer + +Hi, _, thanks for your interest in Apache. + +As you may know, The ASF is home to more than 200 projects, and each +project has their own mailing lists, or other forums, for answering +questions. This list - dev@community.apache.org - is about building +communities across all these projects, but isn't usually the right place +for project-specific questions. + +Your question is about the Apache [Foo] project, so the best place to seek +advice is at https://[foo].apache.org/ or on their project-specific +mailing lists at https://lists.apache.org/list.html?users@[foo].apache.org + +*** NOTE: Verify that the project in question has a users@ list, and Review Comment: 2. Is this NOTE for the reply sender? Or it's included AS IS in the reply for the receiver. -- This is an automated message from the Apache Git Service. To respond to the message, please log on to GitHub and use the URL above to go to the specific comment. To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For queries about this service, please contact Infrastructure at: us...@infra.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: [PR] Answer project-specific queries [comdev-working-groups]
rbowen commented on code in PR #4: URL: https://github.com/apache/comdev-working-groups/pull/4#discussion_r1491218273 ## wg-welcome/templates/project-specific-help.md: ## @@ -0,0 +1,31 @@ +# Question about a specific project + +## Question + +Sometimes people post to dev@community with a question about a specific +Apache project. We are not the place for that question, and we need to +gently redirect, while offering a little additional information about +how the ASF works. + +## Answer + +Hi, _, thanks for your interest in Apache. Review Comment: If you have a thought of how we might do that, that would be cool. I hadn't thought of this as an automated process. -- This is an automated message from the Apache Git Service. To respond to the message, please log on to GitHub and use the URL above to go to the specific comment. To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For queries about this service, please contact Infrastructure at: us...@infra.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: [PR] Answer project-specific queries [comdev-working-groups]
rbowen commented on code in PR #4: URL: https://github.com/apache/comdev-working-groups/pull/4#discussion_r1491219658 ## wg-welcome/templates/project-specific-help.md: ## @@ -0,0 +1,31 @@ +# Question about a specific project + +## Question + +Sometimes people post to dev@community with a question about a specific +Apache project. We are not the place for that question, and we need to +gently redirect, while offering a little additional information about +how the ASF works. + +## Answer + +Hi, _, thanks for your interest in Apache. + +As you may know, The ASF is home to more than 200 projects, and each +project has their own mailing lists, or other forums, for answering +questions. This list - dev@community.apache.org - is about building +communities across all these projects, but isn't usually the right place +for project-specific questions. + +Your question is about the Apache [Foo] project, so the best place to seek +advice is at https://[foo].apache.org/ or on their project-specific +mailing lists at https://lists.apache.org/list.html?users@[foo].apache.org + +*** NOTE: Verify that the project in question has a users@ list, and Review Comment: The note is for the sender. Ideally we would always edit these boilerplate messages, and customize them for each case. -- This is an automated message from the Apache Git Service. To respond to the message, please log on to GitHub and use the URL above to go to the specific comment. To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For queries about this service, please contact Infrastructure at: us...@infra.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: [PR] Answer project-specific queries [comdev-working-groups]
rbowen merged PR #4: URL: https://github.com/apache/comdev-working-groups/pull/4 -- This is an automated message from the Apache Git Service. To respond to the message, please log on to GitHub and use the URL above to go to the specific comment. To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For queries about this service, please contact Infrastructure at: us...@infra.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
[PR] Indicate the status of various WGs [comdev-working-groups]
rbowen opened a new pull request, #5: URL: https://github.com/apache/comdev-working-groups/pull/5 (no comment) -- This is an automated message from the Apache Git Service. To respond to the message, please log on to GitHub and use the URL above to go to the specific comment. To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For queries about this service, please contact Infrastructure at: us...@infra.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: [PR] Indicate the status of various WGs [comdev-working-groups]
rbowen merged PR #5: URL: https://github.com/apache/comdev-working-groups/pull/5 -- This is an automated message from the Apache Git Service. To respond to the message, please log on to GitHub and use the URL above to go to the specific comment. To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For queries about this service, please contact Infrastructure at: us...@infra.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: [jira] [Commented] (COMDEV-543) Sharpeners use cases
On Thu, Feb 15, 2024 at 6:38 AM Rich Bowen wrote: > > > >> "However, having an idea of what red flags we're looking for > >> in a project can be a helpful way to start looking for places to mentor, > >> and sharpen, our projects." > >> > >> That is absolutely the wrong message to give. Who is "we"? This kind > of > >> thing sets the tone of the working group as some kind of external > policing > >> / inspecting function. That will not help. > > > > After a night’s sleep and pondering on what we’re doing here, I want to > really encourage all of us to view this, in perpetuity, as a work in > progress. If you see problems with the approach, please suggest solutions, > rather than raging at the darkness. > > It’s ironic that the response to a list of things that a project can do > wrong is to say that we’re doing it wrong, n’est pas? > Maybe ironic, but valid IMO. > > Having a list of “bad smells” is part of the process of getting to what > work we want to do. It’s not the end product. > Sorry but I disagree there. It is not just semantics to want to focus on community challenges and understanding rather than "smells." > > What I’m really hoping for, out of this working group, is a unified > approach that we can use to improve the Foundation as a whole, and sharpen > one another, collectively, to make the ASF live up to its promise. That is > always going to be aspirational. We’re not going to get there. Not for not > trying, but because we are several thousand humans with egos and > motivations. But we can work together to hone the edge a little. > I agree with you there, but there is a kind of basic issue here, which is the nature of what the Sharpeners are going to do and the problem the working group is trying to solve. > > The work, for the moment, is achieving some rough consensus, and that > involves respectful conversation. If we cannot sharpen ourselves, in this > tiny group of folks who have known one another for a decade or more, we > have very little chance of approaching a project full of strangers and > trying to guide them. > Sorry if I am not sounding respectful. I just have strong feelings about community self-governance and understanding and I will be honest about the fact that I am worried about creeping legalism at the ASF. Instead of looking for symptoms, I think Sharpeners should be looking for, and aiming to help with, basic challenges. In the use cases, I dumped vague descriptions of some challenges. They may be wrong and it might be better to just provide some kind of engagement path for Sharpeners and let them dig in. What I don't want to see is "red flags" leading to Sharpeners showing up and distracting communities from solving real problems or making them think they have problems when they don't. I will provide a concrete example here that I hope won't offend anyone. A few months back, the Commons PMC was called out for not formally voting on "releases" of the common maven parent pom that our builds use. We (IMO) wasted a lot of time going back and forth on whether or not our Lazy Consensus convention for agreeing to publication of this non-executable artifact was OK or not. The external "smell" of bad release voting caused a needless distraction. I don't want to reopen that discussion here, but just point to it as an example. We absolutely have challenges in Commons, but release diligence is not one of them. Where we could use help is in the following challenges shared by a lot of projects: 0) Committed committers - we are sorely lacking in volunteers to maintain the many components that we have. 1) Fragmented communications - we struggle with discussions spread across github PRs, JIRA and the (IMO under-used) dev@ list 2) Too many components and lack of resolve to mark obsolete / effectively dead ones as dormant Those things aren't going to show up as "smells" externally but they challenge the long-term viability of the project. I know I can speak on behalf of the full Commons community that anyone who can help us on any of them is more than welcome to jump in - especially 0 :) The point of the example is that the real problems (and others that I may be personally blind to) can only be seen by observing and engaging with the community. When I was a new board member, I used to try to do this for the projects that I was shepherding. It soon became more work than I had time to do consistently, but I always tried. I see the Sharpeners as a potential source of people to do this. It might actually be best not to have "triggers" for engagement at all other than requests from the communities themselves. Maybe just assign people on some kind of rotation like the Board shepherds. That would have the positive side effect of Sharpeners getting to learn from healthy communities too. Phil
Re: [jira] [Commented] (COMDEV-543) Sharpeners use cases
> I just have strong feelings about > community self-governance and understanding and I will be honest about the > fact that I am worried about creeping legalism at the ASF. Instead of > looking for symptoms, I think Sharpeners should be looking for, and aiming > to help with, basic challenges. In the use cases, I dumped vague > descriptions of some challenges. They may be wrong and it might be better > to just provide some kind of engagement path for Sharpeners and let them > dig in. What I don't want to see is "red flags" leading to Sharpeners > showing up and distracting communities from solving real problems or making > them think they have problems when they don't. Sure, that’s a fair criticism. And I think the way forward is to consider these items and think about what the underlying problem is - or, more helpfully, what *recommendation* we would want to make to such a project, and transform this list into, instead, a list of solutions (or additional entries in the use cases file) rather than problems? > > I will provide a concrete example here that I hope won't offend anyone It’s a good example, for sure, of someone well-meaning trying to fix a problem. It feels useful to consider how we would have wanted this handled instead, with that insight and insider knowledge. Just leave well enough alone? Find a way to better communicate what’s happening? Encourage other projects to similar patterns? (I honestly don’t know, because I wasn’t involved in that situation.) > > The point of the example is that the real problems (and others that I may > be personally blind to) can only be seen by observing and engaging with the > community. When I was a new board member, I used to try to do this for the > projects that I was shepherding. It soon became more work than I had time > to do consistently, but I always tried. I see the Sharpeners as a > potential source of people to do this. It might actually be best not to > have "triggers" for engagement at all other than requests from the > communities themselves. Maybe just assign people on some kind of rotation > like the Board shepherds. That would have the positive side effect of > Sharpeners getting to learn from healthy communities too. I guess I was thinking (but hadn’t written anywhere yet) that the trigger would be reading board reports, and thinking, hmm, that project looks like it might need some help. I would *love* to see requests from the communities. And, indeed, we have gotten those, over the years, here on the dev@community list, and didn’t have any process for saying yes. So perhaps the mechanism is to advertise this service to projects, and wait for takers. Then advertise successes. Repeat. What I’ve found as board shepherd is that you never get a deep enough knowledge of any given project to really be particularly helpful. Each month when I’m shepherding, I’m spending 20 minutes, maybe, on each shepherd project. That’s *definitely* not enough time for the kind of deep dive I think we’re both talking about. My hope is that a sharpener, unlike a shepherd, would spend enough time listening that they would actually start to understand what they’re hearing, and become a legitimate member of the project community.
Re: [jira] [Commented] (COMDEV-543) Sharpeners use cases
I have been refraining from commenting so far but I am just about to catch-up on several other Foundation'y thing and while I generally see it as a good idea (and I would gladly volunteer my time to sharpen some projects if I am accepted as a Sharpener) but there are few details in here that give me some goose bumps. Maybe it's because it's the cultural and background things (and my inherent inability to be part of (rather than cooperate with) of anything that looks corporatishly to me. But - followinareng Rich's comments - I will start from proposed solutions, and then explain what problem they solve rather than stating only the problems I see. Sorry for the long mail, but I thought about it for last few days to wrap my head around it, and well, I think it's worth spelling out what I came up with. If it's too long for you to read, then feel free to ignore it as well, maybe it's just my rambling. So far - I think, maybe I missed it as I was focused on some security/Airflow issues I had been deeply involved with - there was no discussion on how and when and initiated by whom a Sharpener chooses to join the PMC and what is the relation of PMC - Sharpener - Board and whether and how Board is involved in the process. Who and when originates sharpener joins the project is not (or I could not find.it) defined. I am not sure what was the intention (both to start with and what it might turn into in the future for that part of the relation, but here is what I think about it. Proposed solutions (at least this would be the Sharpeners I'd gladly join): * Sharpeners should be a group of people who should be ready to join PMCs to help them but not proactively choose projects and not (God forbid) be assigned by the Board to some projects * Sharpeners **might** if they want, offer their help to the PMCs directly if they happen to or stumble upon the notion that project might struggle with something (various ways, but not directed, nor asked by the Board) - especially when Sharpener has some relationship with the project / PMC / people (but no corporate interest/ allegiance etc. ). But this should be accidental, purely based on existing relations and serendipity of other conversations happening. * The initiative to reach out to Sharpeners should come from the PMC - almost exclusively. The board (with regular project review) might suggest to the PMC that they consider choosing /asking for Sharpener to help them, it should also be advertised and reminded regularly - possibly as part of reminding about reports, that PMCs can reach out if they feel they need help. And they should be able to choose the person from Sharpener's group who is available to help and whom they can trust. * We should aim to have quite a significant number of Sharpeners from various cultures and backgrounds. so that there is a high chance if PMC struggles, they will find a sharpener they know about or had interacted with in the past and they can trust they can cooperate and get useful relationships there. * most important - Sharpeners should **NEVER** report anything to the board - it should be neither expected nor even hinted they could. Creating a special place for them where they could do it is a BIG HAIRY NO for me. They should be exclusively seen (by the PMC) as helpers, and possibly trigger conversations in the PMC when they see conversation is needed. Not as someone who might report something to the board. They could - same as any other person in the project - be asked during a regular review in case the board member has questions about what's going on and start asking questions. Ideally - the projects with sharpener on board, should be easier to review by the board member, they could just look at the conversations the sharpener takes part in - those will be the potential problematic cases. Since sharpener will make sure those conversations happen on the devlist/private (and will do everything to bring them in), the job of board member should be much easier. Board should treat projects with Sharpener as ones where they can just be sure that Sharpener will trigger the right conversations focusing exclusively on "Apache Way". Simply speaking the Sharpeners should not "do" the job of current Board members, they should just make it a lot easier and more obvious for board members to see problems coming. Now - what problem does my proposed solution solve? * Mainly, trust in intentions, and avoiding seeing the Sharpener as a board "punishing hand" and "policeman". There are a number of statements about that in the current proposal, but the structure where there is a report to the board is 100% opposite of that IMHO. Maybe it's the communist past that influences my impression and thinking - but we - people from Eastern Europe know very well the case where your "friends" and "peers" turned out to be confident that they were spying and got "reports" on you. I know it's absolutely not the case here (we are not talking about evil Empires and totali
[PR] Fixed the formate issues of the wg members [comdev-working-groups]
WillemJiang opened a new pull request, #6: URL: https://github.com/apache/comdev-working-groups/pull/6 (no comment) -- This is an automated message from the Apache Git Service. To respond to the message, please log on to GitHub and use the URL above to go to the specific comment. To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For queries about this service, please contact Infrastructure at: us...@infra.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
