Re: [PR] Update mailing-lists.md (comdev-site)

[via GitHub]

chrisdutz merged PR #126:
URL: https://github.com/apache/comdev-site/pull/126


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[DRAFT] Email to all PMCs or Committers

[Christofer Dutz]

Hi,

Here comes a draft for an email I would like to send out.

Not quite sure which audience we should choose … committers, (p)pmcs?

Also, not quite sure about the timeframe? As I know Infra merges PRs on 
Thursdays, I would propose the 17th of August 2023 as date for the change to be 
made. This would give project almost 2 weeks to react and adjust their .asf.yml 
files, if they wish to stay at the current defaults.

So, I wasn’t sure, if I should add links to examples, as it would be putting 
the project acting as negative example in an unfortunate spotlight and using 
date ranges in ponymail links has been not quite successful in the past.

What do you folks think?


Chris


--


Dear {Committers/members of the Apache PMCs},

over the years have we added additional options for discussing project matters 
on a big variety of alternate locations and systems besides email lists, such 
as JIRA and GitHub.
Especially GitHub has been growing in acceptance, as it generally allows 
participating without requiring yet another login.

GitHub currently allows discussing things using: GitHub Issues, GitHub PRs and 
GitHub Discussions.
Infra has built tooling, that forwards these discussions to our mailing-lists.

Unfortunately, some defaults were chosen, which have resulted in many dev-lists 
being swamped with emails, for which no email-client was able to implement any 
form of threading.
Some projects simply reacted by redirecting these emails to lists, such as 
notifications@ or commits@.
Some projects even completely gave up communicating via email lists and only 
“come back” for voting.
Even if the requirement “If it didn’t happen on the list, it didn’t happen” 
sort of is fulfilled, it no longer fulfills what the core of this rule was:
To allow someone to asynchronously participate and find out what’s happening in 
a project without requiring any form of login and to have some sort of archive 
of all discussions about Apache projects on Apache hardware.

In Comdev we have been discussing how we could possibly address this and bring 
back the usefulness of our mailing-lists.
The tooling Infra provides us with, already allows individual projects to 
change the settings of the auto-generated emails and several projects have 
already done so, with great success.

Comdev has therefore proposed to change the default settings for auto-generated 
emails sent out for GitHub.
These changes will not change anything for projects hat already manage how the 
emails should be formatted in their .asf.yml files, but it will affect all 
projects, that didn’t explicitly do that.

For all projects willing to stay at the current format, we encourage to have a 
look at this page and prepare their “.asf.yml” files accordingly: 
https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html
(This page currently lists the current defaults here 
https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html#configuring-the-subject-lines-of-the-emails-being-sent
 as well as the proposed changes)
We will be changing the defaults on {date here}, so you still have some time to 
prepare.



Chris, on behalf of the Comdev PMC

Re: [DRAFT] Email to all PMCs or Committers

[sebb]

On Fri, 4 Aug 2023 at 09:44, Christofer Dutz  wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Here comes a draft for an email I would like to send out.
>
> Not quite sure which audience we should choose … committers, (p)pmcs?

(P)PMCs, but see below.

> Also, not quite sure about the timeframe? As I know Infra merges PRs on 
> Thursdays, I would propose the 17th of August 2023 as date for the change to 
> be made. This would give project almost 2 weeks to react and adjust their 
> .asf.yml files, if they wish to stay at the current defaults.
>
> So, I wasn’t sure, if I should add links to examples, as it would be putting 
> the project acting as negative example in an unfortunate spotlight and using 
> date ranges in ponymail links has been not quite successful in the past.
>
> What do you folks think?

-1

I don't think the default should be changed.

AIUI, projects can now change it for themselves.
The email should be about how to do so.

Don't force projects to opt out of a change that they do not want or need.
Instead provide them with the means to change if they wish.
Do this  by providing clear documentation on how to do so.

Sebb

>
> Chris
>
>
> --
>
>
> Dear {Committers/members of the Apache PMCs},
>
> over the years have we added additional options for discussing project 
> matters on a big variety of alternate locations and systems besides email 
> lists, such as JIRA and GitHub.
> Especially GitHub has been growing in acceptance, as it generally allows 
> participating without requiring yet another login.

Not strictly true - a GH login is required.

>
> GitHub currently allows discussing things using: GitHub Issues, GitHub PRs 
> and GitHub Discussions.
> Infra has built tooling, that forwards these discussions to our mailing-lists.
>
> Unfortunately, some defaults were chosen, which have resulted in many 
> dev-lists being swamped with emails, for which no email-client was able to 
> implement any form of threading.
> Some projects simply reacted by redirecting these emails to lists, such as 
> notifications@ or commits@.

to lists => to new lists

> Some projects even completely gave up communicating via email lists and only 
> “come back” for voting.
> Even if the requirement “If it didn’t happen on the list, it didn’t happen” 
> sort of is fulfilled, it no longer fulfills what the core of this rule was:
> To allow someone to asynchronously participate and find out what’s happening 
> in a project without requiring any form of login and to have some sort of 
> archive of all discussions about Apache projects on Apache hardware.
>
> In Comdev we have been discussing how we could possibly address this and 
> bring back the usefulness of our mailing-lists.
> The tooling Infra provides us with, already allows individual projects to 
> change the settings of the auto-generated emails and several projects have 
> already done so, with great success.
>
> Comdev has therefore proposed to change the default settings for 
> auto-generated emails sent out for GitHub.
> These changes will not change anything for projects hat already manage how 
> the emails should be formatted in their .asf.yml files, but it will affect 
> all projects, that didn’t explicitly do that.

hat => that

> For all projects willing to stay at the current format, we encourage to have 
> a look at this page and prepare their “.asf.yml” files accordingly: 
> https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html
> (This page currently lists the current defaults here 
> https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html#configuring-the-subject-lines-of-the-emails-being-sent
>  as well as the proposed changes)
> We will be changing the defaults on {date here}, so you still have some time 
> to prepare.
>
>
>
> Chris, on behalf of the Comdev PMC

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Re: [DRAFT] Email to all PMCs or Committers

[Gilles Sadowski]

Hello.

Sorry to be somewhat off-topic but it relates to the message contents...
See inline comment.

Le ven. 4 août 2023 à 10:43, Christofer Dutz
 a écrit :
>
> Hi,
>
> Here comes a draft for an email I would like to send out.
>
> Not quite sure which audience we should choose … committers, (p)pmcs?
>
> Also, not quite sure about the timeframe? As I know Infra merges PRs on 
> Thursdays, I would propose the 17th of August 2023 as date for the change to 
> be made. This would give project almost 2 weeks to react and adjust their 
> .asf.yml files, if they wish to stay at the current defaults.
>
> So, I wasn’t sure, if I should add links to examples, as it would be putting 
> the project acting as negative example in an unfortunate spotlight and using 
> date ranges in ponymail links has been not quite successful in the past.
>
> What do you folks think?
>
>
> Chris
>
>
> --
>
>
> Dear {Committers/members of the Apache PMCs},
>
> over the years have we added additional options for discussing project 
> matters on a big variety of alternate locations and systems besides email 
> lists, such as JIRA and GitHub.
> Especially GitHub has been growing in acceptance, as it generally allows 
> participating without requiring yet another login.

Pointedly, GitHub does require "yet another login".
Without registering with GH, I can only look (i.e. read the comments) but
not participate (i.e. write a comment).

>
> GitHub currently allows discussing things using: GitHub Issues, GitHub PRs 
> and GitHub Discussions.
> Infra has built tooling, that forwards these discussions to our mailing-lists.
>
> Unfortunately, some defaults were chosen, which have resulted in many 
> dev-lists being swamped with emails, for which no email-client was able to 
> implement any form of threading.
> Some projects simply reacted by redirecting these emails to lists, such as 
> notifications@ or commits@.
> Some projects even completely gave up communicating via email lists and only 
> “come back” for voting.
> Even if the requirement “If it didn’t happen on the list, it didn’t happen” 
> sort of is fulfilled, it no longer fulfills what the core of this rule was:
> To allow someone to asynchronously participate and find out what’s happening 
> in a project without requiring any form of login and to have some sort of 
> archive of all discussions about Apache projects on Apache hardware.

Again, going through GH contradicts the "participate [...] without
requiring any form of login [...]".

Regards,
Gilles

>
> In Comdev we have been discussing how we could possibly address this and 
> bring back the usefulness of our mailing-lists.
> The tooling Infra provides us with, already allows individual projects to 
> change the settings of the auto-generated emails and several projects have 
> already done so, with great success.
>
> Comdev has therefore proposed to change the default settings for 
> auto-generated emails sent out for GitHub.
> These changes will not change anything for projects hat already manage how 
> the emails should be formatted in their .asf.yml files, but it will affect 
> all projects, that didn’t explicitly do that.
>
> For all projects willing to stay at the current format, we encourage to have 
> a look at this page and prepare their “.asf.yml” files accordingly: 
> https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html
> (This page currently lists the current defaults here 
> https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html#configuring-the-subject-lines-of-the-emails-being-sent
>  as well as the proposed changes)
> We will be changing the defaults on {date here}, so you still have some time 
> to prepare.
>
>
>
> Chris, on behalf of the Comdev PMC

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Re: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to generate GitHub integration email subjecs?

[sebb]

NAK - I don't think the defaults should be changed; instead provide
docs on how to do so
Don't force projects to change if they don't want to

On Wed, 2 Aug 2023 at 07:46, Christofer Dutz  wrote:
>
> Well,
>
> stating the obvious, I’ll add my +1 ;-)
>
> And yes Craig, I said the defaults … if you have explicitly configured your 
> .asf.yaml subjects, they are left unchanged.
>
> Chris
>
>
> Von: Richard Zowalla 
> Datum: Mittwoch, 2. August 2023 um 08:10
> An: dev@community.apache.org 
> Betreff: Re: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to 
> generate GitHub integration email subjecs?
> +1
>
> Am 2. August 2023 07:47:25 MESZ schrieb Jarek Potiuk :
> >+1
> >
> >On Wed, Aug 2, 2023 at 2:15 AM Craig Russell  wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi Christofer,
> >>
> >> As long as projects with their own settings can continue to use them, I'm
> >>
> >> +1
> >>
> >> to change the defaults for all projects. If the projects don't like being 
> >> able to use their lists again, they can always go back to what they had 
> >> before.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Craig
> >>
> >> > On Aug 1, 2023, at 05:16, Christofer Dutz  
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Starting a new thread as the last one sort of dried up and didn’t quite 
> >> > form anything actionable.
> >> >
> >> > Being subscribed to many of our mailing-lists and most recently looking 
> >> > into every project, dev-lists when reviewing board reports, I have seen 
> >> > many of our lists literally being rendered useless.
> >> >
> >> > Useless, because it’s almost impossible to follow these lists, as a 
> >> > large percentage of the emails are:
> >> >
> >> >  *   Generated emails and the way they are currently generated makes it 
> >> > impossible for email clients to correctly display them as threads.
> >> >  *   Contain so much redundant information, that the actual start of the 
> >> > header that I’m interested in reading is usually not readable on mobile 
> >> > phones.
> >> >  *   Most discussions have been moved away from the lists 
> >> > (notifications@, commits@), having left over only skeletons in which 
> >> > every now and then a vote is being handled.
> >> >
> >> > My proposal is to change the default settings for auto-generated GitHub 
> >> > emails for all projects (not just the new ones) to be a much more 
> >> > condensed version.
> >> >
> >> > With these changes, all existing lists, that haven’t manually configured 
> >> > the format of the emails, instantly get readable lists again.
> >> >
> >> > Some would argue that there might be projects that could object these 
> >> > changes, but I would on the other hand bet that more projects would be 
> >> > in favor of such a change than not.
> >> > Those who don’t want a change, can simply go back to the old format, by 
> >> > specifying it in one commit for which we can even provide a default 
> >> > .asf.yaml snippet.
> >> >
> >> > Some people expressed the wish to have longer prefixes, such as 
> >> > “[ISSUE]”, “[PULL-REQUEST]” or “[DISCUSSION]” however do these not add 
> >> > much information to the email that “[I]”, “[PR]” and “[D]” don’t and the 
> >> > shorter version allows displaying more of the subject on mobile email 
> >> > clients.
> >> >
> >> > Here’s an example of a project list before the changes:
> >> > https://lists.apache.org/list?d...@streampipes.apache.org:dfr=2023-1-9|dto=2023-1-15
> >> > Here’s an example of the same list after using the other defaults:
> >> > https://lists.apache.org/list?d...@streampipes.apache.org:dfr=2023-6-12|dto=2023-6-18
> >> >
> >> > Here’s an example on how even ponymail is now able to display something 
> >> > happening on GitHub as a discussion you can also follow nicely via email:
> >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/rnr9tjx9rsnqc7b5nwcf68qnp5bkr9hc
> >> >
> >> > I would propose to keep the repository as part of the templates, even if 
> >> > since my PR last week was merged it’s now possible to omit that too.
> >> >
> >> > I care deeply about our projects, and I would really hate to see our 
> >> > core principles being lost more and more (“If it didn’t happen on the 
> >> > list, it didn’t happen”).
> >> >
> >> > You would make me really happy if I could get some general approval by 
> >> > you folks here.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Chris
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> Craig L Russell
> >> c...@apache.org
> >>
> >>
> >> -
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
> >>
> >
> >-
> >To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> >For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
> >

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Re: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to generate GitHub integration email subjecs?

[sebb]

This was not a fair poll - it was not open long enough.
Also it is not representative; participation on this list is not
required of projects.
And people participating in the discussion are likely to be in favour.

I don't think Comdev should be making decisions on behalf of other projects.

Note: I am not against alllowing projects to change, but it should not
be forced upon them.

On Thu, 3 Aug 2023 at 15:56, Christofer Dutz  wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> as there seems to be general consent on this, I have taken the liberty to 
> prepare the PRs for this:
> https://github.com/apache/infrastructure-github-event-notifier/pull/12
> https://github.com/apache/infrastructure-github-discussions-notifier/pull/2
> However, have I marked them as DRAFT so they aren’t executed today.
>
> I think it would make sense to send out an email first, notifying projects 
> about the coming changes and to define a date to which the changes will be 
> applied.
>
> I’d be happy to prepare the email and send it out (once the 72h for this POLL 
> are over).
>
> Chris
>
> Von: Christofer Dutz 
> Datum: Mittwoch, 2. August 2023 um 09:47
> An: Volkan Yazıcı 
> Betreff: AW: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to 
> generate GitHub integration email subjecs?
> Still giving this a bit more time (72 hours in total) as we usually do things.
> But yeah … I guess as soon as that time is over, I’ll create an infra ticket.
>
> Chris
>
>
> Von: Volkan Yazıcı 
> Datum: Mittwoch, 2. August 2023 um 09:39
> An: Christofer Dutz 
> Betreff: Re: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to 
> generate GitHub integration email subjecs?
> Check. Is there (or will there be) an INFRA ticket that I can follow the 
> implementation progress?
>
> On Wed, Aug 2, 2023 at 9:28 AM Christofer Dutz 
> mailto:christofer.d...@c-ware.de>> wrote:
> Hi Volkan,
>
> well I won’t be doing anything … also is this not really a vote (as we didn’t 
> know if this is something we actually are allowed or able to vote on).
> So my plan is to show this thread to Infra to show that there’s general 
> support for the proposal.
>
> I really hope they won’t let me jump another hoop, asking me to bring this to 
> a vote on Members@.
>
> But sure I think this is worth sending out to committers@ or similar list, 
> which will make a wide range of people be informed.
>
> Chris
>
>
> Von: Volkan Yazıcı mailto:vol...@yazi.ci>>
> Datum: Mittwoch, 2. August 2023 um 09:22
> An: Christofer Dutz 
> mailto:christofer.d...@c-ware.de>>
> Betreff: Re: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to 
> generate GitHub integration email subjecs?
> [PM'ing to avoid derailing the vote thread.]
>
> Christofer, in the email where you will announce the result, would you mind 
> also sharing when the change will take place, please? This will help users to 
> know when they shall expect the changes.
>
> Kind regards.
>
> On Wed, Aug 2, 2023 at 8:46 AM Christofer Dutz 
> mailto:christofer.d...@c-ware.de>> wrote:
> Well,
>
> stating the obvious, I’ll add my +1 ;-)
>
> And yes Craig, I said the defaults … if you have explicitly configured your 
> .asf.yaml subjects, they are left unchanged.
>
> Chris
>
>
> Von: Richard Zowalla mailto:rich...@zowalla.com>>
> Datum: Mittwoch, 2. August 2023 um 08:10
> An: dev@community.apache.org 
> mailto:dev@community.apache.org>>
> Betreff: Re: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to 
> generate GitHub integration email subjecs?
> +1
>
> Am 2. August 2023 07:47:25 MESZ schrieb Jarek Potiuk 
> mailto:ja...@potiuk.com>>:
> >+1
> >
> >On Wed, Aug 2, 2023 at 2:15 AM Craig Russell 
> >mailto:apache@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi Christofer,
> >>
> >> As long as projects with their own settings can continue to use them, I'm
> >>
> >> +1
> >>
> >> to change the defaults for all projects. If the projects don't like being 
> >> able to use their lists again, they can always go back to what they had 
> >> before.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Craig
> >>
> >> > On Aug 1, 2023, at 05:16, Christofer Dutz 
> >> > mailto:christofer.d...@c-ware.de>> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Starting a new thread as the last one sort of dried up and didn’t quite 
> >> > form anything actionable.
> >> >
> >> > Being subscribed to many of our mailing-lists and most recently looking 
> >> > into every project, dev-lists when reviewing board reports, I have seen 
> >> > many of our lists literally being rendered useless.
> >> >
> >> > Useless, because it’s almost impossible to follow these lists, as a 
> >> > large percentage of the emails are:
> >> >
> >> >  *   Generated emails and the way they are currently generated makes it 
> >> > impossible for email clients to correctly display them as threads.
> >> >  *   Contain so much redundant information, that the actual start of the 
> >> > header that I’m interested in reading is usually not readable on mobile 
> >> > phones.
> >> >  *   Most discussions have been moved away from th

Re: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to generate GitHub integration email subjecs?

[Mark Thomas]

On 04/08/2023 10:28, sebb wrote:

This was not a fair poll - it was not open long enough.
Also it is not representative; participation on this list is not
required of projects.
And people participating in the discussion are likely to be in favour.

I don't think Comdev should be making decisions on behalf of other projects.

Note: I am not against alllowing projects to change, but it should not
be forced upon them.


I disagree. Projects may not even realize that improvement is an option. 
We are trying to make are communities more welcoming / understandable / 
easier to follow so projects should have to explicitly opt out rather 
than explicitly opt in.


I suggest the following:

- announce to projects that the default is changing in X days / weeks
  (or even months) time
- provide instructions for what projects need to do before then to keep
  the existing format
- change the default

Mark





On Thu, 3 Aug 2023 at 15:56, Christofer Dutz  wrote:


Hi all,

as there seems to be general consent on this, I have taken the liberty to 
prepare the PRs for this:
https://github.com/apache/infrastructure-github-event-notifier/pull/12
https://github.com/apache/infrastructure-github-discussions-notifier/pull/2
However, have I marked them as DRAFT so they aren’t executed today.

I think it would make sense to send out an email first, notifying projects 
about the coming changes and to define a date to which the changes will be 
applied.

I’d be happy to prepare the email and send it out (once the 72h for this POLL 
are over).

Chris

Von: Christofer Dutz 
Datum: Mittwoch, 2. August 2023 um 09:47
An: Volkan Yazıcı 
Betreff: AW: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to generate 
GitHub integration email subjecs?
Still giving this a bit more time (72 hours in total) as we usually do things.
But yeah … I guess as soon as that time is over, I’ll create an infra ticket.

Chris


Von: Volkan Yazıcı 
Datum: Mittwoch, 2. August 2023 um 09:39
An: Christofer Dutz 
Betreff: Re: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to generate 
GitHub integration email subjecs?
Check. Is there (or will there be) an INFRA ticket that I can follow the 
implementation progress?

On Wed, Aug 2, 2023 at 9:28 AM Christofer Dutz 
mailto:christofer.d...@c-ware.de>> wrote:
Hi Volkan,

well I won’t be doing anything … also is this not really a vote (as we didn’t 
know if this is something we actually are allowed or able to vote on).
So my plan is to show this thread to Infra to show that there’s general support 
for the proposal.

I really hope they won’t let me jump another hoop, asking me to bring this to a 
vote on Members@.

But sure I think this is worth sending out to committers@ or similar list, 
which will make a wide range of people be informed.

Chris


Von: Volkan Yazıcı mailto:vol...@yazi.ci>>
Datum: Mittwoch, 2. August 2023 um 09:22
An: Christofer Dutz 
mailto:christofer.d...@c-ware.de>>
Betreff: Re: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to generate 
GitHub integration email subjecs?
[PM'ing to avoid derailing the vote thread.]

Christofer, in the email where you will announce the result, would you mind 
also sharing when the change will take place, please? This will help users to 
know when they shall expect the changes.

Kind regards.

On Wed, Aug 2, 2023 at 8:46 AM Christofer Dutz 
mailto:christofer.d...@c-ware.de>> wrote:
Well,

stating the obvious, I’ll add my +1 ;-)

And yes Craig, I said the defaults … if you have explicitly configured your 
.asf.yaml subjects, they are left unchanged.

Chris


Von: Richard Zowalla mailto:rich...@zowalla.com>>
Datum: Mittwoch, 2. August 2023 um 08:10
An: dev@community.apache.org 
mailto:dev@community.apache.org>>
Betreff: Re: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to generate 
GitHub integration email subjecs?
+1

Am 2. August 2023 07:47:25 MESZ schrieb Jarek Potiuk 
mailto:ja...@potiuk.com>>:

+1

On Wed, Aug 2, 2023 at 2:15 AM Craig Russell 
mailto:apache@gmail.com>> wrote:


Hi Christofer,

As long as projects with their own settings can continue to use them, I'm

+1

to change the defaults for all projects. If the projects don't like being able 
to use their lists again, they can always go back to what they had before.

Thanks,
Craig


On Aug 1, 2023, at 05:16, Christofer Dutz 
mailto:christofer.d...@c-ware.de>> wrote:

Starting a new thread as the last one sort of dried up and didn’t quite form 
anything actionable.

Being subscribed to many of our mailing-lists and most recently looking into 
every project, dev-lists when reviewing board reports, I have seen many of our 
lists literally being rendered useless.

Useless, because it’s almost impossible to follow these lists, as a large 
percentage of the emails are:

  *   Generated emails and the way they are currently generated makes it 
impossible for email clients to correctly display them as threads.
  *   Contain so much redundant infor

Re: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to generate GitHub integration email subjecs?

[Jarek Potiuk]

I personally think if it is super easy to change back, I see no
problem with making the change. "Ask for forgiveness not for
permission".

It already happened in the past that someone in the past "forced" the
projects to use previous defaults by the fact of defining it.

What was the process when it was decided then and how the projects
were participating in this decision then?

Sure, change is painful, but if in our process we do not allow for a
change we are stuck with sometimes bad decisions made in the past. And
the only way to change those decisions is well, to change them.

There were recent precedents where changes were forced on the
projects. Example was the need to "approve" every Github workflow of
every external contributor - so it's not that we've never done that.
And (contrary to that change) it was not as easy to go back. It
requires finding a somewhat hidden policy, opening a JIRA and waiting
for approval of INFRA.

In this case it's as easy as making a single commit with an update to .asf.yml.

J.

On Fri, Aug 4, 2023 at 11:29 AM sebb  wrote:
>
> This was not a fair poll - it was not open long enough.
> Also it is not representative; participation on this list is not
> required of projects.
> And people participating in the discussion are likely to be in favour.
>
> I don't think Comdev should be making decisions on behalf of other projects.
>
> Note: I am not against alllowing projects to change, but it should not
> be forced upon them.
>
> On Thu, 3 Aug 2023 at 15:56, Christofer Dutz  
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > as there seems to be general consent on this, I have taken the liberty to 
> > prepare the PRs for this:
> > https://github.com/apache/infrastructure-github-event-notifier/pull/12
> > https://github.com/apache/infrastructure-github-discussions-notifier/pull/2
> > However, have I marked them as DRAFT so they aren’t executed today.
> >
> > I think it would make sense to send out an email first, notifying projects 
> > about the coming changes and to define a date to which the changes will be 
> > applied.
> >
> > I’d be happy to prepare the email and send it out (once the 72h for this 
> > POLL are over).
> >
> > Chris
> >
> > Von: Christofer Dutz 
> > Datum: Mittwoch, 2. August 2023 um 09:47
> > An: Volkan Yazıcı 
> > Betreff: AW: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to 
> > generate GitHub integration email subjecs?
> > Still giving this a bit more time (72 hours in total) as we usually do 
> > things.
> > But yeah … I guess as soon as that time is over, I’ll create an infra 
> > ticket.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> > Von: Volkan Yazıcı 
> > Datum: Mittwoch, 2. August 2023 um 09:39
> > An: Christofer Dutz 
> > Betreff: Re: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to 
> > generate GitHub integration email subjecs?
> > Check. Is there (or will there be) an INFRA ticket that I can follow the 
> > implementation progress?
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 2, 2023 at 9:28 AM Christofer Dutz 
> > mailto:christofer.d...@c-ware.de>> wrote:
> > Hi Volkan,
> >
> > well I won’t be doing anything … also is this not really a vote (as we 
> > didn’t know if this is something we actually are allowed or able to vote 
> > on).
> > So my plan is to show this thread to Infra to show that there’s general 
> > support for the proposal.
> >
> > I really hope they won’t let me jump another hoop, asking me to bring this 
> > to a vote on Members@.
> >
> > But sure I think this is worth sending out to committers@ or similar list, 
> > which will make a wide range of people be informed.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> > Von: Volkan Yazıcı mailto:vol...@yazi.ci>>
> > Datum: Mittwoch, 2. August 2023 um 09:22
> > An: Christofer Dutz 
> > mailto:christofer.d...@c-ware.de>>
> > Betreff: Re: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to 
> > generate GitHub integration email subjecs?
> > [PM'ing to avoid derailing the vote thread.]
> >
> > Christofer, in the email where you will announce the result, would you mind 
> > also sharing when the change will take place, please? This will help users 
> > to know when they shall expect the changes.
> >
> > Kind regards.
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 2, 2023 at 8:46 AM Christofer Dutz 
> > mailto:christofer.d...@c-ware.de>> wrote:
> > Well,
> >
> > stating the obvious, I’ll add my +1 ;-)
> >
> > And yes Craig, I said the defaults … if you have explicitly configured your 
> > .asf.yaml subjects, they are left unchanged.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> > Von: Richard Zowalla mailto:rich...@zowalla.com>>
> > Datum: Mittwoch, 2. August 2023 um 08:10
> > An: dev@community.apache.org 
> > mailto:dev@community.apache.org>>
> > Betreff: Re: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to 
> > generate GitHub integration email subjecs?
> > +1
> >
> > Am 2. August 2023 07:47:25 MESZ schrieb Jarek Potiuk 
> > mailto:ja...@potiuk.com>>:
> > >+1
> > >
> > >On Wed, Aug 2, 2023 at 2:15 AM Craig Russell 
> > >mailto:apache@gmail.com>> 

AW: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to generate GitHub integration email subjecs?

[Christofer Dutz]

Hi all,

and thanks Mark and Jarek. I fully agree with what you said.

And regarding the email: Tthat’s why I proposed in the draft email a time a few 
weeks in the future
(but not too many) and added links to what a project would need to do to keep 
things the way they are.

If a project deeply cares, that change should be super easy …
I would even volunteer to prepare the PR for this for every project that 
reaches out to me, wanting the old default.
Then all you need to do is click on the merge button of one PR and keep things 
the way they are.

Chris



Von: Jarek Potiuk 
Datum: Freitag, 4. August 2023 um 11:38
An: dev@community.apache.org 
Betreff: Re: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to generate 
GitHub integration email subjecs?
I personally think if it is super easy to change back, I see no
problem with making the change. "Ask for forgiveness not for
permission".

It already happened in the past that someone in the past "forced" the
projects to use previous defaults by the fact of defining it.

What was the process when it was decided then and how the projects
were participating in this decision then?

Sure, change is painful, but if in our process we do not allow for a
change we are stuck with sometimes bad decisions made in the past. And
the only way to change those decisions is well, to change them.

There were recent precedents where changes were forced on the
projects. Example was the need to "approve" every Github workflow of
every external contributor - so it's not that we've never done that.
And (contrary to that change) it was not as easy to go back. It
requires finding a somewhat hidden policy, opening a JIRA and waiting
for approval of INFRA.

In this case it's as easy as making a single commit with an update to .asf.yml.

J.

On Fri, Aug 4, 2023 at 11:29 AM sebb  wrote:
>
> This was not a fair poll - it was not open long enough.
> Also it is not representative; participation on this list is not
> required of projects.
> And people participating in the discussion are likely to be in favour.
>
> I don't think Comdev should be making decisions on behalf of other projects.
>
> Note: I am not against alllowing projects to change, but it should not
> be forced upon them.
>
> On Thu, 3 Aug 2023 at 15:56, Christofer Dutz  
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > as there seems to be general consent on this, I have taken the liberty to 
> > prepare the PRs for this:
> > https://github.com/apache/infrastructure-github-event-notifier/pull/12
> > https://github.com/apache/infrastructure-github-discussions-notifier/pull/2
> > However, have I marked them as DRAFT so they aren’t executed today.
> >
> > I think it would make sense to send out an email first, notifying projects 
> > about the coming changes and to define a date to which the changes will be 
> > applied.
> >
> > I’d be happy to prepare the email and send it out (once the 72h for this 
> > POLL are over).
> >
> > Chris
> >
> > Von: Christofer Dutz 
> > Datum: Mittwoch, 2. August 2023 um 09:47
> > An: Volkan Yazıcı 
> > Betreff: AW: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to 
> > generate GitHub integration email subjecs?
> > Still giving this a bit more time (72 hours in total) as we usually do 
> > things.
> > But yeah … I guess as soon as that time is over, I’ll create an infra 
> > ticket.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> > Von: Volkan Yazıcı 
> > Datum: Mittwoch, 2. August 2023 um 09:39
> > An: Christofer Dutz 
> > Betreff: Re: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to 
> > generate GitHub integration email subjecs?
> > Check. Is there (or will there be) an INFRA ticket that I can follow the 
> > implementation progress?
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 2, 2023 at 9:28 AM Christofer Dutz 
> > mailto:christofer.d...@c-ware.de>> wrote:
> > Hi Volkan,
> >
> > well I won’t be doing anything … also is this not really a vote (as we 
> > didn’t know if this is something we actually are allowed or able to vote 
> > on).
> > So my plan is to show this thread to Infra to show that there’s general 
> > support for the proposal.
> >
> > I really hope they won’t let me jump another hoop, asking me to bring this 
> > to a vote on Members@.
> >
> > But sure I think this is worth sending out to committers@ or similar list, 
> > which will make a wide range of people be informed.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> > Von: Volkan Yazıcı mailto:vol...@yazi.ci>>
> > Datum: Mittwoch, 2. August 2023 um 09:22
> > An: Christofer Dutz 
> > mailto:christofer.d...@c-ware.de>>
> > Betreff: Re: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to 
> > generate GitHub integration email subjecs?
> > [PM'ing to avoid derailing the vote thread.]
> >
> > Christofer, in the email where you will announce the result, would you mind 
> > also sharing when the change will take place, please? This will help users 
> > to know when they shall expect the changes.
> >
> > Kind regards.
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 2, 2023 at 8:46 AM Christofer Dutz 
> > mailto:christo

Re: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to generate GitHub integration email subjecs?

[Gilles Sadowski]

Hi Sebb.

Le ven. 4 août 2023 à 11:29, sebb  a écrit :
>
> This was not a fair poll

Sure.
[But suggestions to organize a fair (thus official?) poll are usually ignored.]

> - it was not open long enough.
> Also it is not representative; participation on this list is not
> required of projects.
> And people participating in the discussion are likely to be in favour.
>
> I don't think Comdev should be making decisions on behalf of other projects.

I don't know about that.
INFRA makes decisions too (without asking projects)...

>
> Note: I am not against alllowing projects to change, but it should not
> be forced upon them.

I agree with that, but arguably the earlier changes (that ended up in flooding
the MLs) were also forced on the projects.
In "Commons" at least, there was no poll at all (neither fair, nor otherwise)...

Regards,
Gilles

>>> [...]

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Re: [DRAFT] Email to all PMCs or Committers

[Jarek Potiuk]

Few comments:

* make it shorter
* add TL;DR; explaining in one paragraph what it is about, what effect
it will have on those who receive it
* add - immediately after that - mentioning that while the change is
coming by default to everyone, everyone has a way to go back easily
(and link to a doc explaining how - step-by-step very straightforward,
with an example of .asf.yml to copy
* all the rest - why you are doing it, the context etc. while
interesting and super important for you and necessary to add should be
in a clear section which is marked as "you do not need to read it -
only if you are interested".

All those comments from someone who writes even longer emails than you
so, take it with a grain of salt.

J.

On Fri, Aug 4, 2023 at 11:13 AM Gilles Sadowski  wrote:
>
> Hello.
>
> Sorry to be somewhat off-topic but it relates to the message contents...
> See inline comment.
>
> Le ven. 4 août 2023 à 10:43, Christofer Dutz
>  a écrit :
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > Here comes a draft for an email I would like to send out.
> >
> > Not quite sure which audience we should choose … committers, (p)pmcs?
> >
> > Also, not quite sure about the timeframe? As I know Infra merges PRs on 
> > Thursdays, I would propose the 17th of August 2023 as date for the change 
> > to be made. This would give project almost 2 weeks to react and adjust 
> > their .asf.yml files, if they wish to stay at the current defaults.
> >
> > So, I wasn’t sure, if I should add links to examples, as it would be 
> > putting the project acting as negative example in an unfortunate spotlight 
> > and using date ranges in ponymail links has been not quite successful in 
> > the past.
> >
> > What do you folks think?
> >
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> >
> > Dear {Committers/members of the Apache PMCs},
> >
> > over the years have we added additional options for discussing project 
> > matters on a big variety of alternate locations and systems besides email 
> > lists, such as JIRA and GitHub.
> > Especially GitHub has been growing in acceptance, as it generally allows 
> > participating without requiring yet another login.
>
> Pointedly, GitHub does require "yet another login".
> Without registering with GH, I can only look (i.e. read the comments) but
> not participate (i.e. write a comment).
>
> >
> > GitHub currently allows discussing things using: GitHub Issues, GitHub PRs 
> > and GitHub Discussions.
> > Infra has built tooling, that forwards these discussions to our 
> > mailing-lists.
> >
> > Unfortunately, some defaults were chosen, which have resulted in many 
> > dev-lists being swamped with emails, for which no email-client was able to 
> > implement any form of threading.
> > Some projects simply reacted by redirecting these emails to lists, such as 
> > notifications@ or commits@.
> > Some projects even completely gave up communicating via email lists and 
> > only “come back” for voting.
> > Even if the requirement “If it didn’t happen on the list, it didn’t happen” 
> > sort of is fulfilled, it no longer fulfills what the core of this rule was:
> > To allow someone to asynchronously participate and find out what’s 
> > happening in a project without requiring any form of login and to have some 
> > sort of archive of all discussions about Apache projects on Apache hardware.
>
> Again, going through GH contradicts the "participate [...] without
> requiring any form of login [...]".
>
> Regards,
> Gilles
>
> >
> > In Comdev we have been discussing how we could possibly address this and 
> > bring back the usefulness of our mailing-lists.
> > The tooling Infra provides us with, already allows individual projects to 
> > change the settings of the auto-generated emails and several projects have 
> > already done so, with great success.
> >
> > Comdev has therefore proposed to change the default settings for 
> > auto-generated emails sent out for GitHub.
> > These changes will not change anything for projects hat already manage how 
> > the emails should be formatted in their .asf.yml files, but it will affect 
> > all projects, that didn’t explicitly do that.
> >
> > For all projects willing to stay at the current format, we encourage to 
> > have a look at this page and prepare their “.asf.yml” files accordingly: 
> > https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html
> > (This page currently lists the current defaults here 
> > https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html#configuring-the-subject-lines-of-the-emails-being-sent
> >  as well as the proposed changes)
> > We will be changing the defaults on {date here}, so you still have some 
> > time to prepare.
> >
> >
> >
> > Chris, on behalf of the Comdev PMC
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
>

-
To unsubscribe, 

Re: [DRAFT] Email to all PMCs or Committers

[Daniel Gruno]

On 2023-08-04 11:52, Jarek Potiuk wrote:

Few comments:

* make it shorter
* add TL;DR; explaining in one paragraph what it is about, what effect
it will have on those who receive it
* add - immediately after that - mentioning that while the change is
coming by default to everyone, everyone has a way to go back easily
(and link to a doc explaining how - step-by-step very straightforward,
with an example of .asf.yml to copy


For reference, the default subject templates for issues/PRs would 
translate to the following .asf.yaml configuration:


github:
  custom_subjects:
close_issue:   "[GitHub] [{repository}] {user} closed issue 
#{issue_id}: {title}"
close_pr:  "[GitHub] [{repository}] {user} closed pull request 
#{pr_id}: {title}"
comment_issue: "[GitHub] [{repository}] {user} commented on issue 
#{issue_id}: {title}"
comment_pr:"[GitHub] [{repository}] {user} commented on pull 
request #{pr_id}: {title}"
diffcomment:   "[GitHub] [{repository}] {user} commented on a diff 
in pull request #{pr_id}: {title}"
merge_pr:  "[GitHub] [{repository}] {user} merged pull request 
#{pr_id}: {title}"
new_issue: "[GitHub] [{repository}] {user} opened a new issue, 
#{issue_id}: {title}"
new_pr:"[GitHub] [{repository}] {user} opened a new pull 
request, #{pr_id}: {title}"




* all the rest - why you are doing it, the context etc. while
interesting and super important for you and necessary to add should be
in a clear section which is marked as "you do not need to read it -
only if you are interested".

All those comments from someone who writes even longer emails than you
so, take it with a grain of salt.

J.

On Fri, Aug 4, 2023 at 11:13 AM Gilles Sadowski  wrote:


Hello.

Sorry to be somewhat off-topic but it relates to the message contents...
See inline comment.

Le ven. 4 août 2023 à 10:43, Christofer Dutz
 a écrit :


Hi,

Here comes a draft for an email I would like to send out.

Not quite sure which audience we should choose … committers, (p)pmcs?

Also, not quite sure about the timeframe? As I know Infra merges PRs on 
Thursdays, I would propose the 17th of August 2023 as date for the change to be 
made. This would give project almost 2 weeks to react and adjust their .asf.yml 
files, if they wish to stay at the current defaults.

So, I wasn’t sure, if I should add links to examples, as it would be putting 
the project acting as negative example in an unfortunate spotlight and using 
date ranges in ponymail links has been not quite successful in the past.

What do you folks think?


Chris


--


Dear {Committers/members of the Apache PMCs},

over the years have we added additional options for discussing project matters 
on a big variety of alternate locations and systems besides email lists, such 
as JIRA and GitHub.
Especially GitHub has been growing in acceptance, as it generally allows 
participating without requiring yet another login.


Pointedly, GitHub does require "yet another login".
Without registering with GH, I can only look (i.e. read the comments) but
not participate (i.e. write a comment).



GitHub currently allows discussing things using: GitHub Issues, GitHub PRs and 
GitHub Discussions.
Infra has built tooling, that forwards these discussions to our mailing-lists.

Unfortunately, some defaults were chosen, which have resulted in many dev-lists 
being swamped with emails, for which no email-client was able to implement any 
form of threading.
Some projects simply reacted by redirecting these emails to lists, such as 
notifications@ or commits@.
Some projects even completely gave up communicating via email lists and only 
“come back” for voting.
Even if the requirement “If it didn’t happen on the list, it didn’t happen” 
sort of is fulfilled, it no longer fulfills what the core of this rule was:
To allow someone to asynchronously participate and find out what’s happening in 
a project without requiring any form of login and to have some sort of archive 
of all discussions about Apache projects on Apache hardware.


Again, going through GH contradicts the "participate [...] without
requiring any form of login [...]".

Regards,
Gilles



In Comdev we have been discussing how we could possibly address this and bring 
back the usefulness of our mailing-lists.
The tooling Infra provides us with, already allows individual projects to 
change the settings of the auto-generated emails and several projects have 
already done so, with great success.

Comdev has therefore proposed to change the default settings for auto-generated 
emails sent out for GitHub.
These changes will not change anything for projects hat already manage how the 
emails should be formatted in their .asf.yml files, but it will affect all 
projects, that didn’t explicitly do that.

For all projects willing to stay at the current format, we encourage to have a 
look at this page and prepare their “.asf.yml” files accordingly: 
https://community.apache.org/contributor

Re: [DRAFT] Email to all PMCs or Committers

[Rich Bowen]

As discussed offline, I feel like the tone of this messaging is wrong. Give
me a bit to get to my desk and I will propose an alternate draft.

Shosholoza,
Rich


On Fri, Aug 4, 2023, 04:43 Christofer Dutz 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Here comes a draft for an email I would like to send out.
>
> Not quite sure which audience we should choose … committers, (p)pmcs?
>
> Also, not quite sure about the timeframe? As I know Infra merges PRs on
> Thursdays, I would propose the 17th of August 2023 as date for the change
> to be made. This would give project almost 2 weeks to react and adjust
> their .asf.yml files, if they wish to stay at the current defaults.
>
> So, I wasn’t sure, if I should add links to examples, as it would be
> putting the project acting as negative example in an unfortunate spotlight
> and using date ranges in ponymail links has been not quite successful in
> the past.
>
> What do you folks think?
>
>
> Chris
>
>
> --
>
>
> Dear {Committers/members of the Apache PMCs},
>
> over the years have we added additional options for discussing project
> matters on a big variety of alternate locations and systems besides email
> lists, such as JIRA and GitHub.
> Especially GitHub has been growing in acceptance, as it generally allows
> participating without requiring yet another login.
>
> GitHub currently allows discussing things using: GitHub Issues, GitHub PRs
> and GitHub Discussions.
> Infra has built tooling, that forwards these discussions to our
> mailing-lists.
>
> Unfortunately, some defaults were chosen, which have resulted in many
> dev-lists being swamped with emails, for which no email-client was able to
> implement any form of threading.
> Some projects simply reacted by redirecting these emails to lists, such as
> notifications@ or commits@.
> Some projects even completely gave up communicating via email lists and
> only “come back” for voting.
> Even if the requirement “If it didn’t happen on the list, it didn’t
> happen” sort of is fulfilled, it no longer fulfills what the core of this
> rule was:
> To allow someone to asynchronously participate and find out what’s
> happening in a project without requiring any form of login and to have some
> sort of archive of all discussions about Apache projects on Apache hardware.
>
> In Comdev we have been discussing how we could possibly address this and
> bring back the usefulness of our mailing-lists.
> The tooling Infra provides us with, already allows individual projects to
> change the settings of the auto-generated emails and several projects have
> already done so, with great success.
>
> Comdev has therefore proposed to change the default settings for
> auto-generated emails sent out for GitHub.
> These changes will not change anything for projects hat already manage how
> the emails should be formatted in their .asf.yml files, but it will affect
> all projects, that didn’t explicitly do that.
>
> For all projects willing to stay at the current format, we encourage to
> have a look at this page and prepare their “.asf.yml” files accordingly:
> https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html
> (This page currently lists the current defaults here
> https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html#configuring-the-subject-lines-of-the-emails-being-sent
> as well as the proposed changes)
> We will be changing the defaults on {date here}, so you still have some
> time to prepare.
>
>
>
> Chris, on behalf of the Comdev PMC
>

Short Email to committers@ highlighting our generative AI/tools guidance

[Roman Shaposhnik]

Hi!

I was contemplating sending a really short email
to committers@ with the $subj. Who should I talk
with to get this done (or convince myself that
an email to a different ML is better ;-))?

Thanks,
Roman.

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AW: Short Email to committers@ highlighting our generative AI/tools guidance

[Christofer Dutz]

Hi Roman,

Have you thought about asking Chat GPT where to post it? ;-)
(duck and cover)

Chris


Von: Roman Shaposhnik 
Datum: Freitag, 4. August 2023 um 14:26
An: ComDev 
Betreff: Short Email to committers@ highlighting our generative AI/tools 
guidance
Hi!

I was contemplating sending a really short email
to committers@ with the $subj. Who should I talk
with to get this done (or convince myself that
an email to a different ML is better ;-))?

Thanks,
Roman.

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To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org

Re: [DRAFT] Email to all PMCs or Committers

[rbowen]

Ok, I propose this alternative approach - more on the "here's how
things are getting better" tone than the "Here's how things were awful"
tone, and half the length:




Subject: Mailing list threading improvements
To: dev@

Dear Apache project developers,

TL;DR: We’re updating how auto-generated email from Github will be
threaded on your mailing lists. If you want to keep the old defaults,
details are below.

We’re pleased to let you know that we’re tweaking the way that auto-
generated email from Github will appear on your mailing lists. This
will lead to more human-readable subject lines, and the ability of most
modern mail clients to correctly thread discussions originating on
Github.

Background: Many project lists receive email auto-generated on Github.
The way that the subject lines are crafted leads to messages from the
same topic not being threaded together by most mail clients. We’re
fixing that.

The way that these messages are threaded is defined by a file -
.asf.yml - in your git repositories. We’re changing the way that it
will work by default if you don’t choose settings. The change will
happen on {DATE}

Details of the current default, as well as the proposed changes, are on
this page, along with instructions on how to keep your current
settings, if you prefer:

https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html#configuring-the-subject-lines-of-the-emails-being-sent

Chris, on behalf of the Comdev PMC






On Fri, 2023-08-04 at 07:30 -0400, Rich Bowen wrote:
> As discussed offline, I feel like the tone of this messaging is
> wrong. Give me a bit to get to my desk and I will propose an
> alternate draft.
> 
> Shosholoza, 
> Rich
>     
> 
> On Fri, Aug 4, 2023, 04:43 Christofer Dutz
>  wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > Here comes a draft for an email I would like to send out.
> > 
> > Not quite sure which audience we should choose … committers,
> > (p)pmcs?
> > 
> > Also, not quite sure about the timeframe? As I know Infra merges
> > PRs on Thursdays, I would propose the 17th of August 2023 as date
> > for the change to be made. This would give project almost 2 weeks
> > to react and adjust their .asf.yml files, if they wish to stay at
> > the current defaults.
> > 
> > So, I wasn’t sure, if I should add links to examples, as it would
> > be putting the project acting as negative example in an unfortunate
> > spotlight and using date ranges in ponymail links has been not
> > quite successful in the past.
> > 
> > What do you folks think?
> > 
> > 
> > Chris
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > 
> > 
> > Dear {Committers/members of the Apache PMCs},
> > 
> > over the years have we added additional options for discussing
> > project matters on a big variety of alternate locations and systems
> > besides email lists, such as JIRA and GitHub.
> > Especially GitHub has been growing in acceptance, as it generally
> > allows participating without requiring yet another login.
> > 
> > GitHub currently allows discussing things using: GitHub Issues,
> > GitHub PRs and GitHub Discussions.
> > Infra has built tooling, that forwards these discussions to our
> > mailing-lists.
> > 
> > Unfortunately, some defaults were chosen, which have resulted in
> > many dev-lists being swamped with emails, for which no email-client
> > was able to implement any form of threading.
> > Some projects simply reacted by redirecting these emails to lists,
> > such as notifications@ or commits@.
> > Some projects even completely gave up communicating via email lists
> > and only “come back” for voting.
> > Even if the requirement “If it didn’t happen on the list, it didn’t
> > happen” sort of is fulfilled, it no longer fulfills what the core
> > of this rule was:
> > To allow someone to asynchronously participate and find out what’s
> > happening in a project without requiring any form of login and to
> > have some sort of archive of all discussions about Apache projects
> > on Apache hardware.
> > 
> > In Comdev we have been discussing how we could possibly address
> > this and bring back the usefulness of our mailing-lists.
> > The tooling Infra provides us with, already allows individual
> > projects to change the settings of the auto-generated emails and
> > several projects have already done so, with great success.
> > 
> > Comdev has therefore proposed to change the default settings for
> > auto-generated emails sent out for GitHub.
> > These changes will not change anything for projects hat already
> > manage how the emails should be formatted in their .asf.yml files,
> > but it will affect all projects, that didn’t explicitly do that.
> > 
> > For all projects willing to stay at the current format, we
> > encourage to have a look at this page and prepare their “.asf.yml”
> > files accordingly:
> > https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html
> > (This page currently lists the current defaults here
> > https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html#configuring-the-subject-lines-of-t

Re: [DRAFT] Email to all PMCs or Committers

[rbowen]

On Fri, 2023-08-04 at 08:45 -0400, rbo...@rcbowen.com wrote:
> Ok, I propose this alternative approach - more on the "here's how
> things are getting better" tone than the "Here's how things were
> awful"
> tone, and half the length:

Note: Draft lives here: https://hackmd.io/OLN1OC9UTIuk5seu5S8ZcQ - and
I've made a few small corrections/tweaks.

> 
> 
> 
> 
> Subject: Mailing list threading improvements
> To: dev@
> 
> Dear Apache project developers,
> 
> TL;DR: We’re updating how auto-generated email from Github will be
> threaded on your mailing lists. If you want to keep the old defaults,
> details are below.
> 
> We’re pleased to let you know that we’re tweaking the way that auto-
> generated email from Github will appear on your mailing lists. This
> will lead to more human-readable subject lines, and the ability of
> most
> modern mail clients to correctly thread discussions originating on
> Github.
> 
> Background: Many project lists receive email auto-generated on
> Github.
> The way that the subject lines are crafted leads to messages from the
> same topic not being threaded together by most mail clients. We’re
> fixing that.
> 
> The way that these messages are threaded is defined by a file -
> .asf.yml - in your git repositories. We’re changing the way that it
> will work by default if you don’t choose settings. The change will
> happen on {DATE}
> 
> Details of the current default, as well as the proposed changes, are
> on
> this page, along with instructions on how to keep your current
> settings, if you prefer:
> 
> https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html#configuring-the-subject-lines-of-the-emails-being-sent
> 
> Chris, on behalf of the Comdev PMC
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, 2023-08-04 at 07:30 -0400, Rich Bowen wrote:
> > As discussed offline, I feel like the tone of this messaging is
> > wrong. Give me a bit to get to my desk and I will propose an
> > alternate draft.
> > 
> > Shosholoza, 
> > Rich
> >     
> > 
> > On Fri, Aug 4, 2023, 04:43 Christofer Dutz
> >  wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > > 
> > > Here comes a draft for an email I would like to send out.
> > > 
> > > Not quite sure which audience we should choose … committers,
> > > (p)pmcs?
> > > 
> > > Also, not quite sure about the timeframe? As I know Infra merges
> > > PRs on Thursdays, I would propose the 17th of August 2023 as date
> > > for the change to be made. This would give project almost 2 weeks
> > > to react and adjust their .asf.yml files, if they wish to stay at
> > > the current defaults.
> > > 
> > > So, I wasn’t sure, if I should add links to examples, as it would
> > > be putting the project acting as negative example in an
> > > unfortunate
> > > spotlight and using date ranges in ponymail links has been not
> > > quite successful in the past.
> > > 
> > > What do you folks think?
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Chris
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Dear {Committers/members of the Apache PMCs},
> > > 
> > > over the years have we added additional options for discussing
> > > project matters on a big variety of alternate locations and
> > > systems
> > > besides email lists, such as JIRA and GitHub.
> > > Especially GitHub has been growing in acceptance, as it generally
> > > allows participating without requiring yet another login.
> > > 
> > > GitHub currently allows discussing things using: GitHub Issues,
> > > GitHub PRs and GitHub Discussions.
> > > Infra has built tooling, that forwards these discussions to our
> > > mailing-lists.
> > > 
> > > Unfortunately, some defaults were chosen, which have resulted in
> > > many dev-lists being swamped with emails, for which no email-
> > > client
> > > was able to implement any form of threading.
> > > Some projects simply reacted by redirecting these emails to
> > > lists,
> > > such as notifications@ or commits@.
> > > Some projects even completely gave up communicating via email
> > > lists
> > > and only “come back” for voting.
> > > Even if the requirement “If it didn’t happen on the list, it
> > > didn’t
> > > happen” sort of is fulfilled, it no longer fulfills what the core
> > > of this rule was:
> > > To allow someone to asynchronously participate and find out
> > > what’s
> > > happening in a project without requiring any form of login and to
> > > have some sort of archive of all discussions about Apache
> > > projects
> > > on Apache hardware.
> > > 
> > > In Comdev we have been discussing how we could possibly address
> > > this and bring back the usefulness of our mailing-lists.
> > > The tooling Infra provides us with, already allows individual
> > > projects to change the settings of the auto-generated emails and
> > > several projects have already done so, with great success.
> > > 
> > > Comdev has therefore proposed to change the default settings for
> > > auto-generated emails sent out for GitHub.
> > > These changes will not change anything for projects hat already
> > > manage how the emails should be formatted in

Re: Short Email to committers@ highlighting our generative AI/tools guidance

[rbowen]

On Fri, 2023-08-04 at 15:26 +0300, Roman Shaposhnik wrote:
> Hi!
> 
> I was contemplating sending a really short email
> to committers@ with the $subj. Who should I talk
> with to get this done (or convince myself that
> an email to a different ML is better ;-))?


It's definitely hard to know what ML is correct. committers@ does
indeed go to the correct audience, but we have trained people to ignore
that list for many years.

Please *also* post the policy/advice/guidance/whatever it is to a web
page on either community.apache.org/contributors or somewhere on
apache.org for permanent reference.

--Rich

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Re: [DRAFT] Email to all PMCs or Committers

[Peter Hunsberger]

On Fri, Aug 4, 2023 at 7:45 AM  wrote:

> Ok, I propose this alternative approach - more on the "here's how
> things are getting better" tone than the "Here's how things were awful"
> tone, and half the length:
>
> 
>
>
> Subject: Mailing list threading improvements
> To: dev@
>
> Dear Apache project developers,
>
> TL;DR: We’re updating how auto-generated email from Github will be
> threaded on your mailing lists. If you want to keep the old defaults,
> details are below.
>
> We’re pleased to let you know that we’re tweaking the way that auto-
> generated email from Github will appear on your mailing lists. This
> will lead to more human-readable subject lines, and the ability of most
> modern mail clients to correctly thread discussions originating on
> Github.
>
> Background: Many project lists receive email auto-generated on Github.
> The way that the subject lines are crafted leads to messages from the
> same topic not being threaded together by most mail clients. We’re
> fixing that.
>
> The way that these messages are threaded is defined by a file -
> .asf.yml - in your git repositories. We’re changing the way that it
> will work by default if you don’t choose settings. The change will
> happen on {DATE}
>
> Details of the current default, as well as the proposed changes, are on
> this page, along with instructions on how to keep your current
> settings, if you prefer:
>
>
> https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html#configuring-the-subject-lines-of-the-emails-being-sent
>
> Chris, on behalf of the Comdev PMC
>

+1

This seems concise and would be a welcome change

>
>
>
> On Fri, 2023-08-04 at 07:30 -0400, Rich Bowen wrote:
> > As discussed offline, I feel like the tone of this messaging is
> > wrong. Give me a bit to get to my desk and I will propose an
> > alternate draft.
> >
> > Shosholoza,
> > Rich
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Aug 4, 2023, 04:43 Christofer Dutz
> >  wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > Here comes a draft for an email I would like to send out.
> > >
> > > Not quite sure which audience we should choose … committers,
> > > (p)pmcs?
> > >
> > > Also, not quite sure about the timeframe? As I know Infra merges
> > > PRs on Thursdays, I would propose the 17th of August 2023 as date
> > > for the change to be made. This would give project almost 2 weeks
> > > to react and adjust their .asf.yml files, if they wish to stay at
> > > the current defaults.
> > >
> > > So, I wasn’t sure, if I should add links to examples, as it would
> > > be putting the project acting as negative example in an unfortunate
> > > spotlight and using date ranges in ponymail links has been not
> > > quite successful in the past.
> > >
> > > What do you folks think?
> > >
> > >
> > > Chris
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > >
> > > Dear {Committers/members of the Apache PMCs},
> > >
> > > over the years have we added additional options for discussing
> > > project matters on a big variety of alternate locations and systems
> > > besides email lists, such as JIRA and GitHub.
> > > Especially GitHub has been growing in acceptance, as it generally
> > > allows participating without requiring yet another login.
> > >
> > > GitHub currently allows discussing things using: GitHub Issues,
> > > GitHub PRs and GitHub Discussions.
> > > Infra has built tooling, that forwards these discussions to our
> > > mailing-lists.
> > >
> > > Unfortunately, some defaults were chosen, which have resulted in
> > > many dev-lists being swamped with emails, for which no email-client
> > > was able to implement any form of threading.
> > > Some projects simply reacted by redirecting these emails to lists,
> > > such as notifications@ or commits@.
> > > Some projects even completely gave up communicating via email lists
> > > and only “come back” for voting.
> > > Even if the requirement “If it didn’t happen on the list, it didn’t
> > > happen” sort of is fulfilled, it no longer fulfills what the core
> > > of this rule was:
> > > To allow someone to asynchronously participate and find out what’s
> > > happening in a project without requiring any form of login and to
> > > have some sort of archive of all discussions about Apache projects
> > > on Apache hardware.
> > >
> > > In Comdev we have been discussing how we could possibly address
> > > this and bring back the usefulness of our mailing-lists.
> > > The tooling Infra provides us with, already allows individual
> > > projects to change the settings of the auto-generated emails and
> > > several projects have already done so, with great success.
> > >
> > > Comdev has therefore proposed to change the default settings for
> > > auto-generated emails sent out for GitHub.
> > > These changes will not change anything for projects hat already
> > > manage how the emails should be formatted in their .asf.yml files,
> > > but it will affect all projects, that didn’t explicitly do that.
> > >
> > > For all projects willing to stay at the current format, we
> > > encourage 

AW: [DRAFT] Email to all PMCs or Committers

[Christofer Dutz]

Hi all and especially Rich …

I love your version … and yes … I really need to focus more on the “what you 
get”
and less on “why where you’re at sucks” sort of narrative ;-)

Chris


Von: Peter Hunsberger 
Datum: Freitag, 4. August 2023 um 15:06
An: dev@community.apache.org 
Betreff: Re: [DRAFT] Email to all PMCs or Committers
On Fri, Aug 4, 2023 at 7:45 AM  wrote:

> Ok, I propose this alternative approach - more on the "here's how
> things are getting better" tone than the "Here's how things were awful"
> tone, and half the length:
>
> 
>
>
> Subject: Mailing list threading improvements
> To: dev@
>
> Dear Apache project developers,
>
> TL;DR: We’re updating how auto-generated email from Github will be
> threaded on your mailing lists. If you want to keep the old defaults,
> details are below.
>
> We’re pleased to let you know that we’re tweaking the way that auto-
> generated email from Github will appear on your mailing lists. This
> will lead to more human-readable subject lines, and the ability of most
> modern mail clients to correctly thread discussions originating on
> Github.
>
> Background: Many project lists receive email auto-generated on Github.
> The way that the subject lines are crafted leads to messages from the
> same topic not being threaded together by most mail clients. We’re
> fixing that.
>
> The way that these messages are threaded is defined by a file -
> .asf.yml - in your git repositories. We’re changing the way that it
> will work by default if you don’t choose settings. The change will
> happen on {DATE}
>
> Details of the current default, as well as the proposed changes, are on
> this page, along with instructions on how to keep your current
> settings, if you prefer:
>
>
> https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html#configuring-the-subject-lines-of-the-emails-being-sent
>
> Chris, on behalf of the Comdev PMC
>

+1

This seems concise and would be a welcome change

>
>
>
> On Fri, 2023-08-04 at 07:30 -0400, Rich Bowen wrote:
> > As discussed offline, I feel like the tone of this messaging is
> > wrong. Give me a bit to get to my desk and I will propose an
> > alternate draft.
> >
> > Shosholoza,
> > Rich
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Aug 4, 2023, 04:43 Christofer Dutz
> >  wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > Here comes a draft for an email I would like to send out.
> > >
> > > Not quite sure which audience we should choose … committers,
> > > (p)pmcs?
> > >
> > > Also, not quite sure about the timeframe? As I know Infra merges
> > > PRs on Thursdays, I would propose the 17th of August 2023 as date
> > > for the change to be made. This would give project almost 2 weeks
> > > to react and adjust their .asf.yml files, if they wish to stay at
> > > the current defaults.
> > >
> > > So, I wasn’t sure, if I should add links to examples, as it would
> > > be putting the project acting as negative example in an unfortunate
> > > spotlight and using date ranges in ponymail links has been not
> > > quite successful in the past.
> > >
> > > What do you folks think?
> > >
> > >
> > > Chris
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > >
> > > Dear {Committers/members of the Apache PMCs},
> > >
> > > over the years have we added additional options for discussing
> > > project matters on a big variety of alternate locations and systems
> > > besides email lists, such as JIRA and GitHub.
> > > Especially GitHub has been growing in acceptance, as it generally
> > > allows participating without requiring yet another login.
> > >
> > > GitHub currently allows discussing things using: GitHub Issues,
> > > GitHub PRs and GitHub Discussions.
> > > Infra has built tooling, that forwards these discussions to our
> > > mailing-lists.
> > >
> > > Unfortunately, some defaults were chosen, which have resulted in
> > > many dev-lists being swamped with emails, for which no email-client
> > > was able to implement any form of threading.
> > > Some projects simply reacted by redirecting these emails to lists,
> > > such as notifications@ or commits@.
> > > Some projects even completely gave up communicating via email lists
> > > and only “come back” for voting.
> > > Even if the requirement “If it didn’t happen on the list, it didn’t
> > > happen” sort of is fulfilled, it no longer fulfills what the core
> > > of this rule was:
> > > To allow someone to asynchronously participate and find out what’s
> > > happening in a project without requiring any form of login and to
> > > have some sort of archive of all discussions about Apache projects
> > > on Apache hardware.
> > >
> > > In Comdev we have been discussing how we could possibly address
> > > this and bring back the usefulness of our mailing-lists.
> > > The tooling Infra provides us with, already allows individual
> > > projects to change the settings of the auto-generated emails and
> > > several projects have already done so, with great success.
> > >
> > > Comdev has therefore proposed to change the default settings for
> > > auto-generated

Re: [DRAFT] Email to all PMCs or Committers

[Jarek Potiuk]

+1. Looks way better.

On Fri, Aug 4, 2023 at 3:21 PM Christofer Dutz
 wrote:
>
> Hi all and especially Rich …
>
> I love your version … and yes … I really need to focus more on the “what you 
> get”
> and less on “why where you’re at sucks” sort of narrative ;-)
>
> Chris
>
>
> Von: Peter Hunsberger 
> Datum: Freitag, 4. August 2023 um 15:06
> An: dev@community.apache.org 
> Betreff: Re: [DRAFT] Email to all PMCs or Committers
> On Fri, Aug 4, 2023 at 7:45 AM  wrote:
>
> > Ok, I propose this alternative approach - more on the "here's how
> > things are getting better" tone than the "Here's how things were awful"
> > tone, and half the length:
> >
> > 
> >
> >
> > Subject: Mailing list threading improvements
> > To: dev@
> >
> > Dear Apache project developers,
> >
> > TL;DR: We’re updating how auto-generated email from Github will be
> > threaded on your mailing lists. If you want to keep the old defaults,
> > details are below.
> >
> > We’re pleased to let you know that we’re tweaking the way that auto-
> > generated email from Github will appear on your mailing lists. This
> > will lead to more human-readable subject lines, and the ability of most
> > modern mail clients to correctly thread discussions originating on
> > Github.
> >
> > Background: Many project lists receive email auto-generated on Github.
> > The way that the subject lines are crafted leads to messages from the
> > same topic not being threaded together by most mail clients. We’re
> > fixing that.
> >
> > The way that these messages are threaded is defined by a file -
> > .asf.yml - in your git repositories. We’re changing the way that it
> > will work by default if you don’t choose settings. The change will
> > happen on {DATE}
> >
> > Details of the current default, as well as the proposed changes, are on
> > this page, along with instructions on how to keep your current
> > settings, if you prefer:
> >
> >
> > https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html#configuring-the-subject-lines-of-the-emails-being-sent
> >
> > Chris, on behalf of the Comdev PMC
> >
>
> +1
>
> This seems concise and would be a welcome change
>
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, 2023-08-04 at 07:30 -0400, Rich Bowen wrote:
> > > As discussed offline, I feel like the tone of this messaging is
> > > wrong. Give me a bit to get to my desk and I will propose an
> > > alternate draft.
> > >
> > > Shosholoza,
> > > Rich
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, Aug 4, 2023, 04:43 Christofer Dutz
> > >  wrote:
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > Here comes a draft for an email I would like to send out.
> > > >
> > > > Not quite sure which audience we should choose … committers,
> > > > (p)pmcs?
> > > >
> > > > Also, not quite sure about the timeframe? As I know Infra merges
> > > > PRs on Thursdays, I would propose the 17th of August 2023 as date
> > > > for the change to be made. This would give project almost 2 weeks
> > > > to react and adjust their .asf.yml files, if they wish to stay at
> > > > the current defaults.
> > > >
> > > > So, I wasn’t sure, if I should add links to examples, as it would
> > > > be putting the project acting as negative example in an unfortunate
> > > > spotlight and using date ranges in ponymail links has been not
> > > > quite successful in the past.
> > > >
> > > > What do you folks think?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Chris
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Dear {Committers/members of the Apache PMCs},
> > > >
> > > > over the years have we added additional options for discussing
> > > > project matters on a big variety of alternate locations and systems
> > > > besides email lists, such as JIRA and GitHub.
> > > > Especially GitHub has been growing in acceptance, as it generally
> > > > allows participating without requiring yet another login.
> > > >
> > > > GitHub currently allows discussing things using: GitHub Issues,
> > > > GitHub PRs and GitHub Discussions.
> > > > Infra has built tooling, that forwards these discussions to our
> > > > mailing-lists.
> > > >
> > > > Unfortunately, some defaults were chosen, which have resulted in
> > > > many dev-lists being swamped with emails, for which no email-client
> > > > was able to implement any form of threading.
> > > > Some projects simply reacted by redirecting these emails to lists,
> > > > such as notifications@ or commits@.
> > > > Some projects even completely gave up communicating via email lists
> > > > and only “come back” for voting.
> > > > Even if the requirement “If it didn’t happen on the list, it didn’t
> > > > happen” sort of is fulfilled, it no longer fulfills what the core
> > > > of this rule was:
> > > > To allow someone to asynchronously participate and find out what’s
> > > > happening in a project without requiring any form of login and to
> > > > have some sort of archive of all discussions about Apache projects
> > > > on Apache hardware.
> > > >
> > > > In Comdev we have been discussing how we could possibly address
> > > > this and bring back th

Re: [DRAFT] Email to all PMCs or Committers

[rbowen]

On Fri, 2023-08-04 at 15:26 +0200, Jarek Potiuk wrote:
> +1. Looks way better.

Updated draft, for the sake of having it in the archive:



Subject: Mailing list threading improvements
Dear {Committers/members of the Apache PMCs},

TL;DR: We’re updating how auto-generated email from Github will be
threaded on your mailing lists. If you want to keep the old defaults,
details are below.

We’re pleased to let you know that we’re tweaking the way that auto-
generated email from Github will appear on your mailing lists. This
will lead to more human-readable subject lines, and the ability of most
modern mail clients to correctly thread discussions originating on
Github.

Background: Many project mailing lists receive email auto-generated by
Github. The way that the subject lines are crafted leads to messages
from the same topic not being threaded together by most mail clients.
We’re fixing that.

The way that these messages are threaded is defined by a file -
.asf.yml - in your git repositories. We’re changing the way that it
will work by default if you don’t choose settings. If you’re happy for
us to make this change, don’t do anything - the change will happen on
{DATE}.

Details of the current default, as well as the proposed changes, are on
the following page, along with instructions on how to keep your current
settings, if you prefer:

https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html#configuring-the-subject-lines-of-the-emails-being-sent

Please copy dev@community.apache.org on any feedback.

Chris, on behalf of the Comdev PMC

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Re: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to generate GitHub integration email subjecs?

[Craig Russell]

I agree with Mark.

> On Aug 4, 2023, at 02:36, Mark Thomas  wrote:
> 
> I suggest the following:
> 
> - announce to projects that the default is changing in X days / weeks
>  (or even months) time
> - provide instructions for what projects need to do before then to keep
>  the existing format

Include in the message the actual current defaults that can be copy/pasted into 
the projects' asf.yaml for project who prefer the current state.

Craig

> - change the default
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> 
>> On Thu, 3 Aug 2023 at 15:56, Christofer Dutz  
>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi all,
>>> 
>>> as there seems to be general consent on this, I have taken the liberty to 
>>> prepare the PRs for this:
>>> https://github.com/apache/infrastructure-github-event-notifier/pull/12
>>> https://github.com/apache/infrastructure-github-discussions-notifier/pull/2
>>> However, have I marked them as DRAFT so they aren’t executed today.
>>> 
>>> I think it would make sense to send out an email first, notifying projects 
>>> about the coming changes and to define a date to which the changes will be 
>>> applied.
>>> 
>>> I’d be happy to prepare the email and send it out (once the 72h for this 
>>> POLL are over).
>>> 
>>> Chris
>>> 
>>> Von: Christofer Dutz 
>>> Datum: Mittwoch, 2. August 2023 um 09:47
>>> An: Volkan Yazıcı 
>>> Betreff: AW: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to 
>>> generate GitHub integration email subjecs?
>>> Still giving this a bit more time (72 hours in total) as we usually do 
>>> things.
>>> But yeah … I guess as soon as that time is over, I’ll create an infra 
>>> ticket.
>>> 
>>> Chris
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Von: Volkan Yazıcı 
>>> Datum: Mittwoch, 2. August 2023 um 09:39
>>> An: Christofer Dutz 
>>> Betreff: Re: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to 
>>> generate GitHub integration email subjecs?
>>> Check. Is there (or will there be) an INFRA ticket that I can follow the 
>>> implementation progress?
>>> 
>>> On Wed, Aug 2, 2023 at 9:28 AM Christofer Dutz 
>>> mailto:christofer.d...@c-ware.de>> wrote:
>>> Hi Volkan,
>>> 
>>> well I won’t be doing anything … also is this not really a vote (as we 
>>> didn’t know if this is something we actually are allowed or able to vote 
>>> on).
>>> So my plan is to show this thread to Infra to show that there’s general 
>>> support for the proposal.
>>> 
>>> I really hope they won’t let me jump another hoop, asking me to bring this 
>>> to a vote on Members@.
>>> 
>>> But sure I think this is worth sending out to committers@ or similar list, 
>>> which will make a wide range of people be informed.
>>> 
>>> Chris
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Von: Volkan Yazıcı mailto:vol...@yazi.ci>>
>>> Datum: Mittwoch, 2. August 2023 um 09:22
>>> An: Christofer Dutz 
>>> mailto:christofer.d...@c-ware.de>>
>>> Betreff: Re: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to 
>>> generate GitHub integration email subjecs?
>>> [PM'ing to avoid derailing the vote thread.]
>>> 
>>> Christofer, in the email where you will announce the result, would you mind 
>>> also sharing when the change will take place, please? This will help users 
>>> to know when they shall expect the changes.
>>> 
>>> Kind regards.
>>> 
>>> On Wed, Aug 2, 2023 at 8:46 AM Christofer Dutz 
>>> mailto:christofer.d...@c-ware.de>> wrote:
>>> Well,
>>> 
>>> stating the obvious, I’ll add my +1 ;-)
>>> 
>>> And yes Craig, I said the defaults … if you have explicitly configured your 
>>> .asf.yaml subjects, they are left unchanged.
>>> 
>>> Chris
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Von: Richard Zowalla mailto:rich...@zowalla.com>>
>>> Datum: Mittwoch, 2. August 2023 um 08:10
>>> An: dev@community.apache.org 
>>> mailto:dev@community.apache.org>>
>>> Betreff: Re: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to 
>>> generate GitHub integration email subjecs?
>>> +1
>>> 
>>> Am 2. August 2023 07:47:25 MESZ schrieb Jarek Potiuk 
>>> mailto:ja...@potiuk.com>>:
 +1
 
 On Wed, Aug 2, 2023 at 2:15 AM Craig Russell 
 mailto:apache@gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
> Hi Christofer,
> 
> As long as projects with their own settings can continue to use them, I'm
> 
> +1
> 
> to change the defaults for all projects. If the projects don't like being 
> able to use their lists again, they can always go back to what they had 
> before.
> 
> Thanks,
> Craig
> 
>> On Aug 1, 2023, at 05:16, Christofer Dutz 
>> mailto:christofer.d...@c-ware.de>> wrote:
>> 
>> Starting a new thread as the last one sort of dried up and didn’t quite 
>> form anything actionable.
>> 
>> Being subscribed to many of our mailing-lists and most recently looking 
>> into every project, dev-lists when reviewing board reports, I have seen 
>> many of our lists literally being rendered useless.
>> 
>> Useless, because it’s almost impossible to follow these lists, as a 
>> large percentage of the emails are:
>> 
>>  *   Generate

Re: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to generate GitHub integration email subjecs?

[rbowen]

On Fri, 2023-08-04 at 06:46 -0700, Craig Russell wrote:
> I agree with Mark.
> 
> > On Aug 4, 2023, at 02:36, Mark Thomas  wrote:
> > 
> > I suggest the following:
> > 
> > - announce to projects that the default is changing in X days /
> > weeks
> >  (or even months) time
> > - provide instructions for what projects need to do before then to
> > keep
> >  the existing format
> 
> Include in the message the actual current defaults that can be
> copy/pasted into the projects' asf.yaml for project who prefer the
> current state.
> 

The longer the email is, the less chance that the target audience will
read it. Please see my updated draft, which links to the "keep your
terrible defaults" page.

I'm also working on updating the phrasing of that page to make it, too,
less about "here's what's broken" and more about "Here's how you can
tweak the defaults", at least until the change is made. At that point,
we'll have a "classic configuration" snippet there for people who
really, actually, for some inscrutable reason, want the current
setting.

But the current setting is objectively awful, and so far I have not
heard even one person saying that it's better. I'm perplexed as to why
we'd want to even suggest, much less encourage, remaining with the
current setting.


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Re: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to generate GitHub integration email subjecs?

[Daniel Gruno]

On 2023-08-04 16:02, rbo...@rcbowen.com wrote:


But the current setting is objectively awful, and so far I have not
heard even one person saying that it's better. I'm perplexed as to why
we'd want to even suggest, much less encourage, remaining with the
current setting.


The current defaults were fine when they were created, which was 
in...2015/2016 or so, back when hardly any project used github 
issues/prs and those that did had maybe four issues per month. What they 
are obviously not good at is scaling to the use we have in 2023.


As for keeping defaults, I think the number one reason would be to not 
mess up the 525600 filters that people have for the existing subject 
syntax. Giving projects the exact layout of the defaults we have right 
now will allow them to keep status quo and then, at their own pace, 
decide if they want to switch or not.





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Re: Short Email to committers@ highlighting our generative AI/tools guidance

[Roman Shaposhnik]

On Fri, Aug 4, 2023 at 3:53 PM  wrote:
>
> On Fri, 2023-08-04 at 15:26 +0300, Roman Shaposhnik wrote:
> > Hi!
> >
> > I was contemplating sending a really short email
> > to committers@ with the $subj. Who should I talk
> > with to get this done (or convince myself that
> > an email to a different ML is better ;-))?
>
>
> It's definitely hard to know what ML is correct. committers@ does
> indeed go to the correct audience, but we have trained people to ignore
> that list for many years.

Yeah... thinking I'll probably CC members@ ?

> Please *also* post the policy/advice/guidance/whatever it is to a web
> page on either community.apache.org/contributors or somewhere on
> apache.org for permanent reference.

https://news.apache.org/foundation/entry/asf-legal-committee-issues-generative-ai-guidance-to-contributors

and

https://www.apache.org/legal/generative-tooling.html

Thanks,
Roman.

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Re: Short Email to committers@ highlighting our generative AI/tools guidance

[rbowen]

On Fri, 2023-08-04 at 19:01 +0300, Roman Shaposhnik wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 4, 2023 at 3:53 PM  wrote:
> > 
> > On Fri, 2023-08-04 at 15:26 +0300, Roman Shaposhnik wrote:
> > > Hi!
> > > 
> > > I was contemplating sending a really short email
> > > to committers@ with the $subj. Who should I talk
> > > with to get this done (or convince myself that
> > > an email to a different ML is better ;-))?
> > 
> > 
> > It's definitely hard to know what ML is correct. committers@ does
> > indeed go to the correct audience, but we have trained people to
> > ignore
> > that list for many years.
> 
> Yeah... thinking I'll probably CC members@ ?

Yeah, probably. Or possibly the project dev lists?

> 
> > Please *also* post the policy/advice/guidance/whatever it is to a
> > web
> > page on either community.apache.org/contributors or somewhere on
> > apache.org for permanent reference.
> 
> https://news.apache.org/foundation/entry/asf-legal-committee-issues-generative-ai-guidance-to-contributors
> 
> and
> 
> https://www.apache.org/legal/generative-tooling.html


Oh, right, that. :) I thought this might be something new. Cool.

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