Re: Evolving the client protocol

[San Luoji]

Dor,

Setting the Thread Per Core code aside, will your developers commit to
contribute back both https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-2848
and https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-14311?

Looks like CASSANDRA-2848 has stalled even though some respectable work was
done, and CASSANDRA-14311 hasn't been started yet. Some material
contributions from your team on these two areas will be appreciated.

On Mon, Apr 23, 2018 at 6:17 PM, Dor Laor  wrote:

> On Mon, Apr 23, 2018 at 5:03 PM, Sankalp Kohli 
> wrote:
>
> > Is one of the “abuse” of Apache license is ScyllaDB which is using
> > Cassandra but not contributing back?
> >
>
> It's not that we have a private version of Cassandra and we don't release
> all of it or some of it back..
>
> We didn't contribute because we have a different server base. We always
> contribute where it makes sense.
> I'll be happy to have several beers or emails about the cons and pros of
> open source licensing but I don't think
> this is the case. The discussion is about whether the community wish to
> accept our contributions, we initiated it,
> didn't we?
>
> Let's be practical, I think it's not reasonable to commit C* protocol
> changes that the community doesn't intend
> to implement in C* in the short term (thread-per-core like), it's not
> reasonable to expect Scylla to contribute
> such a huge effort to the C* server. It is reasonable to collaborate around
> protocol enhancements that are acceptable,
> even without coding and make sure the protocol is enhanceable in a way that
> forward compatible.
>
>
> Happy to be proved wrong as I am not a lawyer and don’t understand various
> > licenses ..
> >
> > > On Apr 23, 2018, at 16:55, Dor Laor  wrote:
> > >
> > >> On Mon, Apr 23, 2018 at 4:13 PM, Jonathan Haddad 
> > wrote:
> > >>
> > >> From where I stand it looks like you've got only two options for any
> > >> feature that involves updating the protocol:
> > >>
> > >> 1. Don't built the feature
> > >> 2. Built it in Cassanda & scylladb, update the drivers accordingly
> > >>
> > >> I don't think you have a third option, which is built it only in
> > ScyllaDB,
> > >> because that means you have to fork *all* the drivers and make it
> work,
> > >> then maintain them.  Your business model appears to be built on not
> > doing
> > >> any of the driver work yourself, and you certainly aren't giving back
> to
> > >> the open source community via a permissive license on ScyllaDB itself,
> > so
> > >> I'm a bit lost here.
> > >>
> > >
> > > It's totally not about business model.
> > > Scylla itself is 99% open source with AGPL license that prevents abuse
> > and
> > > forces to be committed back to the project. We also have our core
> engine
> > > (seastar) licensed
> > > as Apache since it needs to be integrated with  the core application.
> > > Recently one of our community members even created a new Seastar based,
> > C++
> > > driver.
> > >
> > > Scylla chose to be compatible with the drivers in order to leverage the
> > > existing infrastructure
> > > and (let's be frank) in order to allow smooth migration.
> > > We would have loved to contribute more to the drivers but up to
> recently
> > we:
> > > 1. Were busy on top of our heads with the server
> > > 2. Happy w/ the existing drivers
> > > 3. Developed extensions - GoCQLX - our own contribution
> > >
> > > Finally we can contribute back to the same driver project, we want to
> do
> > it
> > > the right way,
> > > without forking and without duplicated efforts.
> > >
> > > Many times, having a private fork is way easier than proper open source
> > > work so from
> > > a pure business perspective, we don't select the shortest path.
> > >
> > >
> > >>
> > >> To me it looks like you're asking a bunch of volunteers that work on
> > >> Cassandra to accommodate you.  What exactly do we get out of this
> > >> relationship?  What incentive do I or anyone else have to spend time
> > >> helping you instead of working on something that interests me?
> > >>
> > >
> > > Jon, this is certainty not the case.
> > > We genuinely wish to make true *open source* work on:
> > > a. Cassandra drivers
> > > b. Client protocol
> > > c. Scylla server side.
> > > d. Cassandra community related work: mailing list, Jira, design
> > >
> > > But not
> > > e. Cassandra server side
> > >
> > > While I wouldn't mind doing the Cassandra server work, we don't have
> the
> > > resources or
> > > the expertise. The Cassandra _developer_ community is welcome to decide
> > > whether
> > > we get to contribute a/b/c/d. Avi has enumerated the options of
> > > cooperation, passive cooperation
> > > and zero cooperation (below).
> > >
> > > 1. The protocol change is developed using the Cassandra process in a
> JIRA
> > > ticket, culminating in a patch to doc/native_protocol*.spec when
> > consensus
> > > is achieved.
> > > 2. The protocol change is developed outside the Cassandra process.
> > > 3. No cooperation.
> > >
> > > Look, I can understand the

Re: A proposal to move away from Jira-centric development

[San Luoji]

> That’s not optional. If you are an ASF project, mailing lists are the
source of truth. Period.

Since when dictatorship becomes part of the culture in Apache Cassandra
community?

dic·ta·tor·ship
dikˈtādərˌSHip,ˈdiktādərˌSHip/
*noun*

   1. government by a dictator.
   "forty years of dictatorship"
   synonyms: absolute rule, undemocratic rule, despotism
   

   , tyranny
   

   , autocracy
   

   , autarchy
   

   ,authoritarianism, totalitarianism, fascism
   

   ; More

   

   


   

   - a country governed by a dictator.
  plural noun: *dictatorships*
  synonyms: absolute rule, undemocratic rule, despotism
  

  , tyranny
  

  , autocracy
  

  , autarchy
  

  ,authoritarianism, totalitarianism, fascism
  

  ; More

  

  


  

  - absolute authority in any sphere.


On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 12:03 PM, Chris Mattmann 
wrote:

> I’m sorry but you are massively confused if you believe that the ASF
> mailing lists
> aren’t the source of truth. They are. That’s not optional. If you are an
> ASF project,
> mailing lists are the source of truth. Period.
>
> On 8/15/16, 11:01 AM, "Michael Kjellman" 
> wrote:
>
> I'm a big fan of mailing lists, but google makes issues very findable
> for new people to the project as JIRA gets indexed. They won't be able to
> find the same thing on an email they didn't get -- because they weren't in
> the project in the first place.
>
> Mailing lists are good for broad discussion or bringing specific
> issues to the attention of the broader community. It should never be the
> source of truth.
>
> best,
> kjellman
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Aug 15, 2016, at 2:57 PM, Chris Mattmann  > wrote:
>
> Realize it’s not just about committers and PMC members that are
> *already*
> on the PMC or that are developing the project. It’s about how to
> engage the
> *entire* community including those that are not yet on the committer or
> PMC roster. That is the future (and current) lifeblood of the project.
> The mailing
> list aren’t just an unfortunate necessity of being an Apache project.
> They *are*
> the lifeblood of the Apache project.
>
>
>
> On 8/15/16, 10:44 AM, "Brandon Williams"  dri...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>I too, use this method quite a bit, almost every single day.
>
>On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 12:43 PM, Yuki Morishita <
> mor.y...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> As an active committer, the most important thing for me is to be able
> to *look up* design discussion and decision easily later.
>
> I often look up the git history or CHANGES.txt for changes that I'm
> interested in, then look up JIRA by following JIRA ticket number
> written to the comment or text.
> If we move to dev mailing list, I would request to post permalink to
> that thread posted to JIRA, which I think is just one extra step that
> isn't necessary if we simply use JIRA.
>
> So, I'm +1 to just post JIRA link to dev list.
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 12:35 PM, Chris Mattmann  >
> wrote:
> This is a good outward flow of info to the dev list. However, there
> needs to be
> inward flow too – having the convo on the dev list will be a good start
> to that.
> I hope to see more

Re: Moderation

[San Luoji]

Reading this, all I can think of is this:
http://time.com/money/4436630/donald-trump-career-advice-apologies/

On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 2:46 PM, Chris Mattmann  wrote:

> Hi Russ,
>
> Sorry that you feel that way. I’m happy to be the villain when it comes to
> protecting
> those same ideals you cite regarding Apache in your below thread. You see
> I’ve been
> around since 2004 and elected by the membership to the Board for the last
> three years
> based on merit, and contributions towards those ideals over a decade of
> the ASF.
> I’ve been around longer than Apache Cassandra and this community and fully
> intend
> for that to continue. My job is not to only care about Cassandra. It’s to
> ensure that the
> ASF is a vendor neutral ground for ALL of its projects. You see I actually
> understand and
> have read what’s required of me to serve the membership of the ASF and its
> communities.
> I take this VERY seriously. Perhaps more than you know.
>
> You see the other problem with your complaint about me – is that
> unfortunately you
> do not have a voice to act on that complaint. You won’t have a vote in the
> next Apache
> Board election. You won’t have a vote in the next Members election. And
> *that* is
> the rub. I wouldn’t even care if you did or not and you voted against me
> on the ballot.
> If the Apache Cassandra PMC or community cared enough about you or your
> contributions
> to the project, you would have been made a committer, or PMC member, long
> ago, and
> heck you would have even had a chance to become an ASF member where you
> could do
> more than simply voice your displeasure with my actions, you would be able
> to vote with
> your feet against my tyranny of trying to make this project’s management
> committee
> understand their responsibilities for the ASF. I don’t even consider your
> requests to have
> me vilified in front of the Board something that would disqualify you for
> membership in
> the PMC or committee. If you have been making contributions, even
> discussion threads,
> answering questions, etc., to the point of your prior emails including
> this one – why haven’t
> you been elected to have a binding voice within the project? Please ask
> yourself that.
>
> In fact, please ask yourself – what is a “Cassandra MVP” compared to a
> member of the
> ASF which is home to the project? Also please go look at all the people
> I’ve been privy and
> voted on granting membership to within the foundation since 2011, go look
> at some of the
> functioning and healthy projects that don’t have a problem with vendor
> neutrality at the
> ASF, and *then* come and talk to me about how my professional and
> character isn’t such
> to stand on the board of the ASF. Again, I’ll wait.
>
> If it’s a hostile request to ask that a potentially inflammatory Twitter
> discussion that I attempted
> to bring about to the *source of the project’s discussion here at the ASF*
> and for a mail summarizing
> that Twitter discussion to be moderated through within 12 hours, and
> for the PMC of an Apache project to understand its commitments regarding
> having
> geographically diverse moderators for their Apache lists; and if it’s a
> hostile request to
> ask that all members of the community including those non committers
> and/or PMC
> that take to Twitter to voice their concerns when they are not sure of
> even where the
> canonical discussion for the project is have a voice here on the canonical
> lists for the project
> then there is something fundamentally wrong with the community. I will
> assert again based
> on my reading of the facts including archives, code, discussions here and
> outside of the ASF, abuse
> of trademarks, vendor non-neutrality, tea leaves and the collective WHOLE
> of those things that my initial
> request to bring the conversation on list -  that was met with the usual
> random drive by vitriol and my follow
> up asking how in the bleeping world there were at least 3 emails
> questioning whether or not an email
> should be moderated though - was warranted.
>
> I state this as someone who has seen Apache projects come and go and will
> continue to see that, even ones at the same level of interest as Cassandra
> (and much
> much more too as well). If it’s hostile for a Board member to drive the
> discussions to
> the mailing list instead of outside sources, then my apologies for my
> hostility. You will
> continue to get that apology as I continue to do my job and what I signed
> up to do as an
> ASF board member in terms of maintaining that vendor neutrality,
> irrespective of whether
> or not people don’t like my directness, frankness, and discussion.
>
> Chris
>
> On 11/4/16, 1:09 PM, "Russell Bradberry"  wrote:
>
>- ... we are arguing whether to f'ing moderate it through. Wow.
> Great
>job.
>- Do you think it's healthy to send emails trying to talk shit
> instead
>of ...
>- ... project? Or is Twitter the official list now? Go ahead, I'll
> wait