Re: [DISCUSS] java 9 and the future of cassandra on the jdk
On Tue, 20 Mar 2018 16:26:30 -0500, you wrote: >So this is basically Oracle imposing a rapid upgrade path on free users to >force them to buy commercial to get LTS stability? > >This will probably shake out in the community somehow. Cassandra is complex >but we are small fry in the land of IT supports and Enterprise upgrades. >Something will organize around OpenJDK I'd guess. There's probably a Don't forget that the commercial Linux distributions support what they ship. So for example if you purchase Red Hat Enterprise Linux they current will provide support for Java 8 until October 2020(*). I assume Ubuntu does something similar. The only ones likely to be hurt by Oracle's actions are anyone who is running anything Java based on either Windows or MacOS. *https://access.redhat.com/articles/1299013 - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@cassandra.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@cassandra.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] java 9 and the future of cassandra on the jdk
On Wed, 21 Mar 2018 14:04:39 +0100, you wrote: >There's also another option, which I just want to mention here for the >sake of discussion. > >Quoting the Oracle Support Roadmap: >"Instead of relying on a pre-installed standalone JRE, we encourage >application developers to deliver JREs with their applications." > >I've played around with Java 9 a while ago and also tested creating a >self contained JRE using jlink, which you can bundle and ship with your >application. So there's a technical solution for that with Java 9. Of >course you'd have to clarify licensing issues (OpenJDK is GPLv2 + >Classpath exception) first. > >Bundling a custom JRE along with Cassandra, would be convenient in a way >that we can do all the testing against the bundled Java version. We >could also switch to a new Java version whenever it fits us. To a certain extent though the issue isn't whether Cassandra works well with the given JRE but rather the issue of having a supported JRE in a production environment. If Cassandra ships with a bundled JRE does that then mean the people/organizations downloading and using that product are going to expect the Cassandra project to provide bug and security updates to the JRE as well as Cassandra? What happens if an organization gets hacked due to an issue in an out of date JRE that Cassandra bundled? Yes, that can currently happen if the organization chooses to run Cassandra on an unsupported JRE. But in that case the organization has made that decision, not Cassandra. Essentially any security concious entity, whether a person or organization, running any software stack on top of Java (or I guess any of the other languages based on the JVM) is going to have to make a choice between constantly updating their JRE or going with a LTS version (either from Oracle or Red Hat or any other company that is willing to provide it). Or maybe even move to .Net now that it is supported on Linux. I don't think there are any great choices here for Cassandra or any of the other Java based projects but an easy solution (in terms of basing the project on a supported JRE that can be downloaded for free) would be to choose whatever version of OpenJDK is supported by Red Hat or any other Linux distribution that offers a LTS release. So for example basing on OpenJDK 8 gets you support until October 2020 with paying for Red Hat, or for free (with mainly security updates) by using Centos. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@cassandra.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@cassandra.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] java 9 and the future of cassandra on the jdk
On Wed, 21 Mar 2018 10:52:06 -0400, you wrote: >> Even if you are not running say Debian, or RedHat, those distributions >> will be backporting critical fixes to their JVMs; This work is going >> to be done, and will be available to anyone. >This would certainly mitigate a lot of the core problems with the new >release model. Has there been any public statements of plans/intent >with regards to distros doing this? I am not familiar enough with the others to say definitely, but that is the whole point of the distributions - though admittedly usually better done for key things like kernels and compilers, less so for random applications. The distribution tests and releases, and then maintains for the duration of the support of the release the software contained in the release. So in the case of the Red Hat / Fedora ecosystem you get: Fedora - maintain the current version and the immediate preceding version (usually means you get about 1 year). Red Hat - their policy is given here* but can be up to 6 years depending on which version of Red Hat you are on. Those on Red Hat will get the most benefit (being able to file bugs, etc) but even those using the free Centos version will get the security fixes and any other backported fixes given that Centos mirrors Red Hat EL. So (at least for the Linux world) all that may be needed is surveying the various distributions to find a version that has broad support for a reasonable time period. The problem will come for those using Windows or MacOS, where neither Microsoft or Apple provide Java and thus those users will either have to: 1) accept the JRE upgrade treadmill 2) adopt the Oracle JRE (and pay if necessary for it) 3) hope that some 3rd party either provides a free or cheaper than Oracle version based off of OpenJDK What Cassandra does in those cases will be a discussion to be had, perhaps in a couple of months, when the available options is clearer. In particular the big question for many organizations will be what is the cost of Oracle support, and if they find it reasonable they may just pay it. I suppose there is also the possibility of whether Cassandra (or any other Java based open source project) will continue to support Windows or MacOS as platforms if they become to much hassle. It may also be worth considering getting an informal group of projects based on Java contacting the Java maintainers at various Linux/BSD distributions and come up with a consence going forward as how to handle the issue of what versions of Java to support and which to skip. * https://access.redhat.com/articles/1299013 - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@cassandra.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@cassandra.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] java 9 and the future of cassandra on the jdk
On Thu, 22 Mar 2018 16:04:16 -0500, you wrote: >Is OpenJDK really not addressing this at all? Is that because OpenJDK is >beholden to Oracle somehow? I suspect it is more a case of OpenJDK (as in the entitites other than Oracle that are members) haven't historically been involved in the providing of JRE/JDK to the public. Oracle (previously Sun) handled that entirely and so there is no group outside of Oracle prepared (at least at this point in time) to do anything. >There is no looming deadline on this, is there? Less than a year. Java 8 is currently scheduled to get dropped (as in no more updates) in January 2019 (the actual plan is 4 months after Java 11, so if 11 is late then that date will get changed). > Can we just let the dust >settle on this in the overall ecosystem to see what happens? Not a lot of time to organize an alternative if too much time is spent seeing if someone else does anything. I don't see Apple picking up supporting Java again on MacOS, I suppose Microsoft might be convinced to pick up Java for Windows if they felt it helped either Windows or Azure (on the other hand though this might convince a lot of organizations to move to the now multi-platform .Net). The question really becomes who sees it in their interest to come up with the money to support (either through OpenJDK or an outside group) the process of building and maintaining a free set of Java binaries. Unless someone steps up then the best anyone can do (at least in terms of no-cost use of Java) is to work around where we know there will be long term Java support, that being the Linux/BSD versions that provide long term support through the distribution. If that is the case, then it might be worth someone creating an informal group to discuss between the distributions and the software projects that rely on Java what version of Java to support. If for example Red Hat, Ubuntu, Debian, FreeBSD, etc. can't come to an informal agreement to all support the same version of Java we could in 5 years end up with Red Hat supporting X, Ubuntu X+1, Debian X-1, etc. with the result that the software have to try and pick and choose. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@cassandra.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@cassandra.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] java 9 and the future of cassandra on the jdk
On Fri, 23 Mar 2018 04:54:23 +, you wrote: >I think Michael is right. It would be impossible to make everyone follow >such a fast release scheme, and supporting it will be pressured onto the >various distributions, M$ and Apple. >On the other hand https://adoptopenjdk.net has already done a lot of the >work and it's already rumoured they may take up backporting of security/bug >fixes. I'd fully expect a lot of users to collaborate around this (or >similar), and there's no reason we couldn't do our part to contribute. A posting on Reddit yesterday from someone from adoptopenjdk claimes that they will be doing LTS releases starting with Java 11, and there should be updates to their website to reflect that soon: https://www.reddit.com/r/java/comments/86ce66/java_long_term_support/ So I guess a wait and see to what they commit could be worthwhile. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@cassandra.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@cassandra.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] java 9 and the future of cassandra on the jdk
On Fri, 23 Mar 2018 15:52:51 +, you wrote: >Java 8 was marked as EOL in the middle of last year, I hope we wouldn't >require it for Cassandra 4. At this point I feel like we should already be >targeting Java 10 at a minimum. Given that the last messages indicated aiming Cassandra 4 for the 3rd/4th quarter it is a bit of quandary. Perhaps the answer is to aim for Q4 by for now building and testing on Java 10, and then when Java 11 is released switching to that for testing only, with the hope of getting Cassandra 4 out a couple of months after Java 11 (assuming Java 11 is on time, but one of the hoped for effects of a 6 month cadence is you don't run into big changes that delay things). With Java 11 you then get the latest LTS which Oracle and I would assume Red Hat and other supporting for years instead of months. Essentially, if organizations are going to go through the process of a significant upgrade in Cassandra then let them at least at the same time have the option of getting onto the lastest LTS Java so they can mimize future disruptions. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@cassandra.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@cassandra.apache.org
Re: Dropping Python 3.6 support in 4.1
On Tue, 5 Apr 2022 12:20:49 +0100, you wrote: >I would strongly recommend keeping Python 3.6 compatibility until >2024-06-30 when the CentOS 7 maintenance updates is stopped. I would point out that the RHEL 8.* (as seen on Rocky Linux 8.5) releases come with Python 3.6 and I don't see anything newer in the EPEL repository for the 8.* series of releases.
