Re: [DISCUSS] The way we log

[Berenguer Blasi]

I wouldn't forbid isDebugEnabled.

Guarding heavy debug params with it makes perfect sense per se, you 
avoid a perf penalty with 1 loc. If in C* production clusters are 
expected/preferred to be run with debug logging on so be it but being an 
OSS project we're unaware of all tools, side-projects and any other 
consumers of our code. They could be benefiting from not running in debug.


Parsing the use of isDebugEnabled as making debug not meant for 
production is sthg I am not totally following. Debug is, imo, is 
perfectly fine in production for it's intended uses and with it's know 
impact. If we want to signal we want C* to be ran in debug in production 
then let's add a big warning in the logback xml files on even log that 
as a WARN or ERROR. But I wouldn't push down that concern into the code 
style.


Besides, imo, if we remove/forbid it getting it back if we changed our 
minds wouldn't be an easy task. Whereas if it's there it doesn't hurt.


My 2cts

On 23/7/24 16:12, Mick Semb Wever wrote:



On Tue, 23 Jul 2024 at 15:27, J. D. Jordan  
wrote:


I don’t know that I agree we should remove use if isDebugEnabled,
but we should be assuming debug is enabled and not doing anything
too crazy there.



The problem is that the use of isDebugEnabled, as trivial as it is, 
leads to the typical assumption that debug is not meant for 
production.  This has tripped us up in the past.  It's important that 
debug logging does not impact production performance.  Any use of 
isDebugEnabled is counter-intuitive to this.   Maybe restoring the 
logging guidelines is enough, but I'd argue that we can further 
simplify things (at least against our current state of affairs) by 
just disallowing the use of isDebugEnabled altogether.


And yes, debug equalling background tasks is not entirely accurate, my 
bad (the doc provides a far more accurate description to what might be 
found in system vs debug log files). And there's for example 
read/write tracing, that if enabled, might only be found in the 
debug.log  . This has been brought up previously, and in the ticket 
and old ml thread there's mention in keeping system.log clean to 
read/writes/hotpaths.  The logging guideline was written (by Paulo I 
believe) as a result of 10241 and that old ml thread.


We have an existing logging guideline doc, we need debug to be 
performant in production – it is enabled by default,  and is designed 
and recommended to be used in production.

Welcome Joey Lynch as Cassandra PMC member

[Benjamin Lerer]

 The PMC's members are pleased to announce that Joey Lynch has accepted the
invitation to become a PMC member.

Thanks a lot, Joey, for everything you have done for the project all these
years.

Congratulations and welcome

The Apache Cassandra PMC members

Re: Welcome Joey Lynch as Cassandra PMC member

[Sumanth Pasupuleti]

Congratulations Joey!


On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 7:16 AM Benjamin Lerer  wrote:

> The PMC's members are pleased to announce that Joey Lynch has accepted the
> invitation to become a PMC member.
>
> Thanks a lot, Joey, for everything you have done for the project all these
> years.
>
> Congratulations and welcome
>
> The Apache Cassandra PMC members
>

Re: Welcome Joey Lynch as Cassandra PMC member

[C. Scott Andreas]

Congratulations Joey!

- Scott

—
Mobile

> On Jul 24, 2024, at 7:12 AM, Benjamin Lerer  wrote:
> 
> 
> The PMC's members are pleased to announce that Joey Lynch has accepted the 
> invitation to become a PMC member.
> 
> Thanks a lot, Joey, for everything you have done for the project all these 
> years.
> 
> Congratulations and welcome
> 
> The Apache Cassandra PMC members

Re: Welcome Joey Lynch as Cassandra PMC member

[Ekaterina Dimitrova]

Great news!! Congrats Joey!! Well deserved!

On Wed, 24 Jul 2024 at 10:36, C. Scott Andreas  wrote:

> Congratulations Joey!
>
> - Scott
>
> —
> Mobile
>
> > On Jul 24, 2024, at 7:12 AM, Benjamin Lerer  wrote:
> >
> > 
> > The PMC's members are pleased to announce that Joey Lynch has accepted
> the invitation to become a PMC member.
> >
> > Thanks a lot, Joey, for everything you have done for the project all
> these years.
> >
> > Congratulations and welcome
> >
> > The Apache Cassandra PMC members
>

Re: Welcome Joey Lynch as Cassandra PMC member

[Brandon Williams]

Congrats!

Kind Regards,
Brandon

On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 9:12 AM Benjamin Lerer  wrote:
>
> The PMC's members are pleased to announce that Joey Lynch has accepted the 
> invitation to become a PMC member.
>
> Thanks a lot, Joey, for everything you have done for the project all these 
> years.
>
> Congratulations and welcome
>
> The Apache Cassandra PMC members

Re: Welcome Joey Lynch as Cassandra PMC member

[Berenguer Blasi]

Congrats!

On 24/7/24 16:45, Brandon Williams wrote:

Congrats!

Kind Regards,
Brandon

On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 9:12 AM Benjamin Lerer  wrote:

The PMC's members are pleased to announce that Joey Lynch has accepted the 
invitation to become a PMC member.

Thanks a lot, Joey, for everything you have done for the project all these 
years.

Congratulations and welcome

The Apache Cassandra PMC members

Re: Welcome Joey Lynch as Cassandra PMC member

[Abe Ratnofsky]

Congratulations!

Re: [DISCUSS] The way we log

[Josh McKenzie]

I argued this point 6 years ago and I'll continue to argue it today. Relying on 
assertions in production code by default, having debug live in production code 
by default, these are code and culture smells to me. Yes we work on complex 
distributed systems. No we should not be relying on crutches like this in 
production environments to make up for the fact that our property and 
fuzz-based testing has historically been inadequate. And don't get me started 
on it being 2024 and us not having nightly perf regression testing.

Let me quote Benedict and strongly +1 his words here:

> Debug logging *can* be enabled for production clusters, but it should not be 
> on by default.

> DEBUG should *not* be taken to mean “background activities” and we should 
> stamp this out wherever this has been occurring

> DEBUG means verbose logging for use debugging system behaviour. It should be 
> safe to enable in production, but it should not be on by default.

> We should anyway not be codifying something just because a handful of people 
> have been doing it.

Doing our own thing w/regards to logging as a project is a pretty big unforced 
error IMO.

A brief glance at cockroach's logging channels 
 
and sinks or postgres' various severity levels 

 etc. just reinforces for me how our approach to logging and debug feels 
ad-hoc, reactive, and organic to me. There's a lot of prior art we could learn 
from here.

So I'm in my glass house here chucking stones, because of course I don't have 
the bandwidth to help *address* any of this. I'm with you on this Mick:
> What's your proposal to change it to *how it should be*? And who will do that 
> work ? Along with better naming of log files, I wholeheartedly support a more 
> intuitive approach to using separate loggers in the code, e.g. with markers.
> 
> My proposal is only in lieu of such an agreement and change.

On Wed, Jul 24, 2024, at 4:59 AM, Berenguer Blasi wrote:
> I wouldn't forbid isDebugEnabled.
> 
> Guarding heavy debug params with it makes perfect sense per se, you avoid a 
> perf penalty with 1 loc. If in C* production clusters are expected/preferred 
> to be run with debug logging on so be it but being an OSS project we're 
> unaware of all tools, side-projects and any other consumers of our code. They 
> could be benefiting from not running in debug.
> 
> Parsing the use of isDebugEnabled as making debug not meant for production is 
> sthg I am not totally following. Debug is, imo, is perfectly fine in 
> production for it's intended uses and with it's know impact. If we want to 
> signal we want C* to be ran in debug in production then let's add a big 
> warning in the logback xml files on even log that as a WARN or ERROR. But I 
> wouldn't push down that concern into the code style.
> 
> Besides, imo, if we remove/forbid it getting it back if we changed our minds 
> wouldn't be an easy task. Whereas if it's there it doesn't hurt.
> 
> My 2cts
> 
> On 23/7/24 16:12, Mick Semb Wever wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> On Tue, 23 Jul 2024 at 15:27, J. D. Jordan  wrote:
>>> I don’t know that I agree we should remove use if isDebugEnabled, but we 
>>> should be assuming debug is enabled and not doing anything too crazy there.
>> 
>> 
>> The problem is that the use of isDebugEnabled, as trivial as it is, leads to 
>> the typical assumption that debug is not meant for production.  This has 
>> tripped us up in the past.  It's important that debug logging does not 
>> impact production performance.  Any use of isDebugEnabled is 
>> counter-intuitive to this.   Maybe restoring the logging guidelines is 
>> enough, but I'd argue that we can further simplify things (at least against 
>> our current state of affairs) by just disallowing the use of isDebugEnabled 
>> altogether.  
>> 
>> And yes, debug equalling background tasks is not entirely accurate, my bad 
>> (the doc provides a far more accurate description to what might be found in 
>> system vs debug log files). And there's for example read/write tracing, that 
>> if enabled, might only be found in the debug.log  . This has been brought up 
>> previously, and in the ticket and old ml thread there's mention in keeping 
>> system.log clean to read/writes/hotpaths.  The logging guideline was written 
>> (by Paulo I believe) as a result of 10241 and that old ml thread.
>> We have an existing logging guideline doc, we need debug to be performant in 
>> production – it is enabled by default,  and is designed and recommended to 
>> be used in production.
>> 
>> 
>>  

Re: Welcome Joey Lynch as Cassandra PMC member

[Yifan Cai]

Congrats Joey!

From: Abe Ratnofsky 
Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2024 7:55:24 AM
To: dev@cassandra.apache.org 
Subject: Re: Welcome Joey Lynch as Cassandra PMC member

Congratulations!

Re: Welcome Joey Lynch as Cassandra PMC member

[Josh McKenzie]

Congrats Joey! 

On Wed, Jul 24, 2024, at 10:55 AM, Abe Ratnofsky wrote:
> Congratulations!
> 

Re: Welcome Joey Lynch as Cassandra PMC member

[Abhijeet Dubey]

Congratulations Joey :)

On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 8:38 PM Josh McKenzie  wrote:

> Congrats Joey!
>
> On Wed, Jul 24, 2024, at 10:55 AM, Abe Ratnofsky wrote:
>
> Congratulations!
>
>
>

-- 
*Abhijeet*

Re: Welcome Joey Lynch as Cassandra PMC member

[Jeremiah Jordan]

Congrats Joey!

On Jul 24, 2024 at 10:12:21 AM, Abhijeet Dubey 
wrote:

> Congratulations Joey :)
>
> On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 8:38 PM Josh McKenzie 
> wrote:
>
>> Congrats Joey!
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 24, 2024, at 10:55 AM, Abe Ratnofsky wrote:
>>
>> Congratulations!
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> *Abhijeet*
>

Re: Welcome Joey Lynch as Cassandra PMC member

[Francisco Guerrero]

Congrats, Joey!

On 2024/07/24 14:12:11 Benjamin Lerer wrote:
>  The PMC's members are pleased to announce that Joey Lynch has accepted the
> invitation to become a PMC member.
> 
> Thanks a lot, Joey, for everything you have done for the project all these
> years.
> 
> Congratulations and welcome
> 
> The Apache Cassandra PMC members
> 

Re: Welcome Joey Lynch as Cassandra PMC member

[Jon Haddad]

Congrats Joey!

On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 9:56 AM Francisco Guerrero 
wrote:

> Congrats, Joey!
>
> On 2024/07/24 14:12:11 Benjamin Lerer wrote:
> >  The PMC's members are pleased to announce that Joey Lynch has accepted
> the
> > invitation to become a PMC member.
> >
> > Thanks a lot, Joey, for everything you have done for the project all
> these
> > years.
> >
> > Congratulations and welcome
> >
> > The Apache Cassandra PMC members
> >
>

Re: Welcome Joey Lynch as Cassandra PMC member

[Vinay Chella via dev]

Congratulations Joey!!
Thanks,
Vinay


On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 10:41 AM Jon Haddad  wrote:

> Congrats Joey!
>
> On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 9:56 AM Francisco Guerrero 
> wrote:
>
>> Congrats, Joey!
>>
>> On 2024/07/24 14:12:11 Benjamin Lerer wrote:
>> >  The PMC's members are pleased to announce that Joey Lynch has accepted
>> the
>> > invitation to become a PMC member.
>> >
>> > Thanks a lot, Joey, for everything you have done for the project all
>> these
>> > years.
>> >
>> > Congratulations and welcome
>> >
>> > The Apache Cassandra PMC members
>> >
>>
>

Re: Welcome Joey Lynch as Cassandra PMC member

[David Capwell]

Congrats!

> On Jul 24, 2024, at 10:41 AM, Jon Haddad  wrote:
> 
> Congrats Joey!
> 
> On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 9:56 AM Francisco Guerrero  > wrote:
>> Congrats, Joey!
>> 
>> On 2024/07/24 14:12:11 Benjamin Lerer wrote:
>> >  The PMC's members are pleased to announce that Joey Lynch has accepted the
>> > invitation to become a PMC member.
>> > 
>> > Thanks a lot, Joey, for everything you have done for the project all these
>> > years.
>> > 
>> > Congratulations and welcome
>> > 
>> > The Apache Cassandra PMC members
>> >

Re: Welcome Joey Lynch as Cassandra PMC member

[Patrick McFadin]

Every once in a while you see an announcement and think "Wasn't that
already a thing?" and then realize it wasn't. This is one of those times.
Congratulations Joey on the thing I thought you already were so clearly you
deserve this!


On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 11:57 AM David Capwell  wrote:

> Congrats!
>
> On Jul 24, 2024, at 10:41 AM, Jon Haddad  wrote:
>
> Congrats Joey!
>
> On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 9:56 AM Francisco Guerrero 
> wrote:
>
>> Congrats, Joey!
>>
>> On 2024/07/24 14:12:11 Benjamin Lerer wrote:
>> >  The PMC's members are pleased to announce that Joey Lynch has accepted
>> the
>> > invitation to become a PMC member.
>> >
>> > Thanks a lot, Joey, for everything you have done for the project all
>> these
>> > years.
>> >
>> > Congratulations and welcome
>> >
>> > The Apache Cassandra PMC members
>> >
>>
>
>

Re: Welcome Joey Lynch as Cassandra PMC member

[Dinesh Joshi]

Congratulations, Joey!

On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 12:26 PM Patrick McFadin  wrote:

> Every once in a while you see an announcement and think "Wasn't that
> already a thing?" and then realize it wasn't. This is one of those times.
> Congratulations Joey on the thing I thought you already were so clearly you
> deserve this!
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 11:57 AM David Capwell  wrote:
>
>> Congrats!
>>
>> On Jul 24, 2024, at 10:41 AM, Jon Haddad  wrote:
>>
>> Congrats Joey!
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 9:56 AM Francisco Guerrero 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Congrats, Joey!
>>>
>>> On 2024/07/24 14:12:11 Benjamin Lerer wrote:
>>> >  The PMC's members are pleased to announce that Joey Lynch has
>>> accepted the
>>> > invitation to become a PMC member.
>>> >
>>> > Thanks a lot, Joey, for everything you have done for the project all
>>> these
>>> > years.
>>> >
>>> > Congratulations and welcome
>>> >
>>> > The Apache Cassandra PMC members
>>> >
>>>
>>
>>

Re: [RESULT}[VOTE] Release Apache Cassandra 5.0-rc1

[Elliott Sims via dev]

Looks like this is out and there's a 5.0-rc release.  Is a 4.1.6 release
with a fix for CASSANDRA-19668 coming?

On Sat, Jun 29, 2024 at 2:39 AM Mick Semb Wever  wrote:

>
> The votes fails with a veto in place having made CASSANDRA-19668 an
> 5.0-rc blocker.
>
> Once 19668 lands we will need an immediate release of 4.1.6 too.
>
>
>
> On Fri, 28 Jun 2024 at 06:49, Jon Haddad  wrote:
>
>> Thanks for confirming this, Blake. I agree that we should not knowingly
>> ship new versions with severe bugs that cause the DB to crash, regression
>> or not.
>>
>> -1 from me as well
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 28, 2024 at 1:39 AM Blake Eggleston 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Looking at the ticket, I’d say Jon’s concern is legitimate. The
>>> segfaults Jon is seeing are probably caused by paxos V2 when combined with
>>> off heap memtables for the reason Benedict suggests in the JIRA. This
>>> problem will continue to exist in 5.0. Unfortunately, it looks like the
>>> patch posted is not enough to address the issue and will need to be a bit
>>> more involved to properly fix the problem.
>>>
>>> While this is not a regression, I think Jon’s point about trie memtables
>>> increasing usage of off heap memtables is a good one, and anyway we
>>> shouldn’t be doing major releases with known process crashing bugs.
>>>
>>> So I’m voting -1 on this release and will work with Jon and Benedict to
>>> get this fixed.
>>>
>>
>
>
>

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Re: Welcome Joey Lynch as Cassandra PMC member

[Joseph Lynch]

Thank you all for the warm wishes and I greatly appreciate this opportunity!

This is such a great community and I am proud to be part of it.

Cheers!
-Joey

On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 10:12 AM Benjamin Lerer  wrote:

> The PMC's members are pleased to announce that Joey Lynch has accepted the
> invitation to become a PMC member.
>
> Thanks a lot, Joey, for everything you have done for the project all these
> years.
>
> Congratulations and welcome
>
> The Apache Cassandra PMC members
>

Re: Welcome Joey Lynch as Cassandra PMC member

[Venkata Hari Krishna Nukala]

Congratulations Joey!!

On Thu, 25 Jul 2024 at 7:20 AM, Joseph Lynch  wrote:

> Thank you all for the warm wishes and I greatly appreciate this
> opportunity!
>
> This is such a great community and I am proud to be part of it.
>
> Cheers!
> -Joey
>
> On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 10:12 AM Benjamin Lerer  wrote:
>
>> The PMC's members are pleased to announce that Joey Lynch has accepted
>> the invitation to become a PMC member.
>>
>> Thanks a lot, Joey, for everything you have done for the project all
>> these years.
>>
>> Congratulations and welcome
>>
>> The Apache Cassandra PMC members
>>
>