Re: Build tool

[Benjamin Lerer]

Thanks for opening that discussion Aleksei.

I am also in favor of Maven. My previous experience with Graddle was not
great.

Le jeu. 3 févr. 2022 à 08:45, Berenguer Blasi  a
écrit :

> Hi All,
>
> I've had a similar experience. Gradle is super powerful but suddenly it
> becomes one more 'thing' on the plate demanding attention every now and
> then. While Maven you can forget about it unless you need actual changes to
> the build. I don't have a strong opinion, I'll be happy with both and happy
> to +1 maven.
>
> Regards
> On 3/2/22 6:52, Maulin Vasavada wrote:
>
> Hi Aleksei
>
> I was thinking about the same - build tool. I have used both - Maven and
> Gradle. In my experience, while Gradle has a rich DSL and the corresponding
> power, with constant changes in Gradle across versions it is difficult to
> focus on the actual product (like Cassandra in this case) development. With
> Maven the learning is once and it doesn't change that much and one can
> focus on the actual product better.
>
> Of course, this is IMHO. +1 for using Maven. I would like to participate
> in the migration of the build tool if it needs more hands.
>
> Thanks
> Maulin
>
> On Wed, Feb 2, 2022 at 2:35 PM Aleksei Zotov  wrote:
>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> Some time ago I created
>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-17015 to migrate from
>> ant to maven/gradle. Originally I was going to implement both, compare and
>> pick the best in terms of project needs. However, now I feel it would be a
>> significant overhead to try out both. Therefore, I'd like to make a
>> collective decision on the build tool before starting any actual work.
>>
>> I saw on Slack (
>> https://app.slack.com/client/T4S1WH2J3/CK23JSY2K/thread/CK23JSY2K-1643748908.929809)
>> that many people prefer maven. I'm leaning towards maven as well.
>>
>> I guess we need to have a formal poll on the build tool since it is a
>> significant part of the project. Please, suggest what the best way to
>> proceed is. Should I just raise a vote for maven and just see if someone -1
>> in favor of gradle?
>>
>> PS:
>> Please, bear in mind that Robert has already made some progress on gradle
>> migration. I do not know how much is done there and whether he is willing
>> to get it completed.
>>
>> On 2020/06/02 13:39:34 Robert Stupp wrote:
>> > Yea - it's already in a pretty good state.
>> >
>> > Some work-in-progress-state is already available in either
>> > https://github.com/snazy/cassandra/tree/tryout-gradle (or
>> > https://github.com/snazy/cassandra/tree/tryout-gradle-dist-test with
>> an
>> > additional commit).
>> >
>> > I already use it on my machine for a bunch of things and it already
>> > "feels bad" to go back to a branch without Gradle.
>> >
>> > I'll start a separate dev-ML thread with some more information in the
>> > next days, because getting C* 4.0-beta released is a higher priority
>> atm.
>> >
>> > On 6/1/20 2:41 AM, Joshua McKenzie wrote:
>> > > Build tools are like religions, that's why. Or maybe cults. Or all
>> > > Stockholm Syndrome creators? :)
>> > >
>> > > Robert Stupp has been noodling around with a gradle based build env
>> for C*
>> > > that'll live alongside ant. Not sure what the status is on that atm
>> through.
>> > >
>> > > On Sun, May 31, 2020 at 3:16 PM Abhishek Singh 
>> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> Hi All,
>> > >>Hope you are doing well and are safe.
>> > >>   I just wanted to know why is the build still on ant and is there
>> any plan
>> > >> to migrate to a modern build tool?
>> > >>
>> > >> Regards,
>> > >> Abhishek Singh
>> > >>
>> > --
>> > Robert Stupp
>> > @snazy
>> >
>> >
>> > -
>> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@cassandra.apache.org
>> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@cassandra.apache.org
>> >
>> >
>>
>

Re: Build tool

[bened...@apache.org]

I’m going to be a killjoy and once again query what value changing build system 
brings, that outweighs the disruption to current long-term contributors that 
can easily get things done today?

At the very least there should be a ranked choice vote that includes today’s 
build system.

From: Maulin Vasavada 
Date: Thursday, 3 February 2022 at 05:52
To: dev@cassandra.apache.org 
Subject: Re: Build tool
Hi Aleksei

I was thinking about the same - build tool. I have used both - Maven and 
Gradle. In my experience, while Gradle has a rich DSL and the corresponding 
power, with constant changes in Gradle across versions it is difficult to focus 
on the actual product (like Cassandra in this case) development. With Maven the 
learning is once and it doesn't change that much and one can focus on the 
actual product better.

Of course, this is IMHO. +1 for using Maven. I would like to participate in the 
migration of the build tool if it needs more hands.

Thanks
Maulin

On Wed, Feb 2, 2022 at 2:35 PM Aleksei Zotov 
mailto:azotc...@apache.org>> wrote:
Hi All,

Some time ago I created https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-17015 
to migrate from ant to maven/gradle. Originally I was going to implement both, 
compare and pick the best in terms of project needs. However, now I feel it 
would be a significant overhead to try out both. Therefore, I'd like to make a 
collective decision on the build tool before starting any actual work.

I saw on Slack 
(https://app.slack.com/client/T4S1WH2J3/CK23JSY2K/thread/CK23JSY2K-1643748908.929809)
 that many people prefer maven. I'm leaning towards maven as well.

I guess we need to have a formal poll on the build tool since it is a 
significant part of the project. Please, suggest what the best way to proceed 
is. Should I just raise a vote for maven and just see if someone -1 in favor of 
gradle?

PS:
Please, bear in mind that Robert has already made some progress on gradle 
migration. I do not know how much is done there and whether he is willing to 
get it completed.

On 2020/06/02 13:39:34 Robert Stupp wrote:
> Yea - it's already in a pretty good state.
>
> Some work-in-progress-state is already available in either
> https://github.com/snazy/cassandra/tree/tryout-gradle (or
> https://github.com/snazy/cassandra/tree/tryout-gradle-dist-test with an
> additional commit).
>
> I already use it on my machine for a bunch of things and it already
> "feels bad" to go back to a branch without Gradle.
>
> I'll start a separate dev-ML thread with some more information in the
> next days, because getting C* 4.0-beta released is a higher priority atm.
>
> On 6/1/20 2:41 AM, Joshua McKenzie wrote:
> > Build tools are like religions, that's why. Or maybe cults. Or all
> > Stockholm Syndrome creators? :)
> >
> > Robert Stupp has been noodling around with a gradle based build env for C*
> > that'll live alongside ant. Not sure what the status is on that atm through.
> >
> > On Sun, May 31, 2020 at 3:16 PM Abhishek Singh 
> > mailto:abh23...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi All,
> >>Hope you are doing well and are safe.
> >>   I just wanted to know why is the build still on ant and is there any plan
> >> to migrate to a modern build tool?
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Abhishek Singh
> >>
> --
> Robert Stupp
> @snazy
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: 
> dev-unsubscr...@cassandra.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> dev-h...@cassandra.apache.org
>
>

Re: Build tool

[Benjamin Lerer]

I think that there are 2 main issues (Aleksei can correct me):
* ANT is pretty old and a lot of newcomers are unfamiliar with it and
surprised by it. By consequence, it might slow down the on-boarding of
newcomers which we want to make as smooth as possible.
* Aleksei has been working on migrating our test to JUnit 5 and faced
multiple issues with ANT. He provided five new features to the ANT project
to fix the problems he encountered and some got rejected.

I totally agree with your feeling that the current solution works for now
and that staying with it is also a valid choice. I do like ANT. The
question for me is really if ANT makes sense for the future of Cassandra.
>From the feedback I got, I start to doubt that it is the case.

Le jeu. 3 févr. 2022 à 09:32, bened...@apache.org  a
écrit :

> I’m going to be a killjoy and once again query what value changing build
> system brings, that outweighs the disruption to current long-term
> contributors that can easily get things done today?
>
>
>
> At the very least there should be a ranked choice vote that includes
> today’s build system.
>
>
>
> *From: *Maulin Vasavada 
> *Date: *Thursday, 3 February 2022 at 05:52
> *To: *dev@cassandra.apache.org 
> *Subject: *Re: Build tool
>
> Hi Aleksei
>
>
>
> I was thinking about the same - build tool. I have used both - Maven and
> Gradle. In my experience, while Gradle has a rich DSL and the corresponding
> power, with constant changes in Gradle across versions it is difficult to
> focus on the actual product (like Cassandra in this case) development. With
> Maven the learning is once and it doesn't change that much and one can
> focus on the actual product better.
>
>
>
> Of course, this is IMHO. +1 for using Maven. I would like to participate
> in the migration of the build tool if it needs more hands.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Maulin
>
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 2, 2022 at 2:35 PM Aleksei Zotov  wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> Some time ago I created
> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-17015 to migrate from ant
> to maven/gradle. Originally I was going to implement both, compare and pick
> the best in terms of project needs. However, now I feel it would be a
> significant overhead to try out both. Therefore, I'd like to make a
> collective decision on the build tool before starting any actual work.
>
> I saw on Slack (
> https://app.slack.com/client/T4S1WH2J3/CK23JSY2K/thread/CK23JSY2K-1643748908.929809)
> that many people prefer maven. I'm leaning towards maven as well.
>
> I guess we need to have a formal poll on the build tool since it is a
> significant part of the project. Please, suggest what the best way to
> proceed is. Should I just raise a vote for maven and just see if someone -1
> in favor of gradle?
>
> PS:
> Please, bear in mind that Robert has already made some progress on gradle
> migration. I do not know how much is done there and whether he is willing
> to get it completed.
>
> On 2020/06/02 13:39:34 Robert Stupp wrote:
> > Yea - it's already in a pretty good state.
> >
> > Some work-in-progress-state is already available in either
> > https://github.com/snazy/cassandra/tree/tryout-gradle (or
> > https://github.com/snazy/cassandra/tree/tryout-gradle-dist-test with an
> > additional commit).
> >
> > I already use it on my machine for a bunch of things and it already
> > "feels bad" to go back to a branch without Gradle.
> >
> > I'll start a separate dev-ML thread with some more information in the
> > next days, because getting C* 4.0-beta released is a higher priority atm.
> >
> > On 6/1/20 2:41 AM, Joshua McKenzie wrote:
> > > Build tools are like religions, that's why. Or maybe cults. Or all
> > > Stockholm Syndrome creators? :)
> > >
> > > Robert Stupp has been noodling around with a gradle based build env
> for C*
> > > that'll live alongside ant. Not sure what the status is on that atm
> through.
> > >
> > > On Sun, May 31, 2020 at 3:16 PM Abhishek Singh 
> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Hi All,
> > >>Hope you are doing well and are safe.
> > >>   I just wanted to know why is the build still on ant and is there
> any plan
> > >> to migrate to a modern build tool?
> > >>
> > >> Regards,
> > >> Abhishek Singh
> > >>
> > --
> > Robert Stupp
> > @snazy
> >
> >
> > -
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@cassandra.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@cassandra.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>

Re: Build tool

[bened...@apache.org]

I don’t have a super strong desire to stay with ant, I just have a desire not 
to unduly burden the project with unnecessary churn. Tooling changes can be 
quite painful.

With regards to contributions, this is often brought up but the reality is the 
project has always struggled to bring in new ongoing contributors, in large 
part due to the barrier to entry of such a complex project (which has only 
grown as our expectations on patch quality have gone up). I struggle to believe 
that ANT is more than a rounding error on our efficacy here, since we have 
always struggled.

If we’re struggling to actually use ant how we want that’s another matter, but 
it’s easy to forget how much just works for us with ant, and forget the things 
we will have pain with adopting a new build system. I have had more frustration 
with Gradle in a few months than I have with ant in a decade. I’m sure Maven is 
better, but I doubt it will be without issue.


From: Benjamin Lerer 
Date: Thursday, 3 February 2022 at 09:03
To: dev@cassandra.apache.org 
Subject: Re: Build tool
I think that there are 2 main issues (Aleksei can correct me):
* ANT is pretty old and a lot of newcomers are unfamiliar with it and surprised 
by it. By consequence, it might slow down the on-boarding of newcomers which we 
want to make as smooth as possible.
* Aleksei has been working on migrating our test to JUnit 5 and faced multiple 
issues with ANT. He provided five new features to the ANT project to fix the 
problems he encountered and some got rejected.

I totally agree with your feeling that the current solution works for now and 
that staying with it is also a valid choice. I do like ANT. The question for me 
is really if ANT makes sense for the future of Cassandra. From the feedback I 
got, I start to doubt that it is the case.

Le jeu. 3 févr. 2022 à 09:32, bened...@apache.org 
mailto:bened...@apache.org>> a écrit :
I’m going to be a killjoy and once again query what value changing build system 
brings, that outweighs the disruption to current long-term contributors that 
can easily get things done today?

At the very least there should be a ranked choice vote that includes today’s 
build system.

From: Maulin Vasavada 
mailto:maulin.vasav...@gmail.com>>
Date: Thursday, 3 February 2022 at 05:52
To: dev@cassandra.apache.org 
mailto:dev@cassandra.apache.org>>
Subject: Re: Build tool
Hi Aleksei

I was thinking about the same - build tool. I have used both - Maven and 
Gradle. In my experience, while Gradle has a rich DSL and the corresponding 
power, with constant changes in Gradle across versions it is difficult to focus 
on the actual product (like Cassandra in this case) development. With Maven the 
learning is once and it doesn't change that much and one can focus on the 
actual product better.

Of course, this is IMHO. +1 for using Maven. I would like to participate in the 
migration of the build tool if it needs more hands.

Thanks
Maulin

On Wed, Feb 2, 2022 at 2:35 PM Aleksei Zotov 
mailto:azotc...@apache.org>> wrote:
Hi All,

Some time ago I created https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-17015 
to migrate from ant to maven/gradle. Originally I was going to implement both, 
compare and pick the best in terms of project needs. However, now I feel it 
would be a significant overhead to try out both. Therefore, I'd like to make a 
collective decision on the build tool before starting any actual work.

I saw on Slack 
(https://app.slack.com/client/T4S1WH2J3/CK23JSY2K/thread/CK23JSY2K-1643748908.929809)
 that many people prefer maven. I'm leaning towards maven as well.

I guess we need to have a formal poll on the build tool since it is a 
significant part of the project. Please, suggest what the best way to proceed 
is. Should I just raise a vote for maven and just see if someone -1 in favor of 
gradle?

PS:
Please, bear in mind that Robert has already made some progress on gradle 
migration. I do not know how much is done there and whether he is willing to 
get it completed.

On 2020/06/02 13:39:34 Robert Stupp wrote:
> Yea - it's already in a pretty good state.
>
> Some work-in-progress-state is already available in either
> https://github.com/snazy/cassandra/tree/tryout-gradle (or
> https://github.com/snazy/cassandra/tree/tryout-gradle-dist-test with an
> additional commit).
>
> I already use it on my machine for a bunch of things and it already
> "feels bad" to go back to a branch without Gradle.
>
> I'll start a separate dev-ML thread with some more information in the
> next days, because getting C* 4.0-beta released is a higher priority atm.
>
> On 6/1/20 2:41 AM, Joshua McKenzie wrote:
> > Build tools are like religions, that's why. Or maybe cults. Or all
> > Stockholm Syndrome creators? :)
> >
> > Robert Stupp has been noodling around with a gradle based build env for C*
> > that'll live alongside ant. Not sure what the status is on that atm through.
> >
> > On Sun, May

Re: Build tool

[Stefan Miklosovic]

I think that it is not only about the build tool as such. There is a
lot of scripting involved in build scripts as well as in Jenkins
pipeline and so on. I am not sure how to make a transition like this,
testing it all while people are developing at the same time. Some
problems like parallelisation of tests among multiple Jenkins workers
needs to be tried to see if it makes sense and so on ... This will be
quite a challenge for one guy to accomplish (if Aleksei is the one).

On Thu, 3 Feb 2022 at 10:17, bened...@apache.org  wrote:
>
> I don’t have a super strong desire to stay with ant, I just have a desire not 
> to unduly burden the project with unnecessary churn. Tooling changes can be 
> quite painful.
>
>
>
> With regards to contributions, this is often brought up but the reality is 
> the project has always struggled to bring in new ongoing contributors, in 
> large part due to the barrier to entry of such a complex project (which has 
> only grown as our expectations on patch quality have gone up). I struggle to 
> believe that ANT is more than a rounding error on our efficacy here, since we 
> have always struggled.
>
>
>
> If we’re struggling to actually use ant how we want that’s another matter, 
> but it’s easy to forget how much just works for us with ant, and forget the 
> things we will have pain with adopting a new build system. I have had more 
> frustration with Gradle in a few months than I have with ant in a decade. I’m 
> sure Maven is better, but I doubt it will be without issue.
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Benjamin Lerer 
> Date: Thursday, 3 February 2022 at 09:03
> To: dev@cassandra.apache.org 
> Subject: Re: Build tool
>
> I think that there are 2 main issues (Aleksei can correct me):
>
> * ANT is pretty old and a lot of newcomers are unfamiliar with it and 
> surprised by it. By consequence, it might slow down the on-boarding of 
> newcomers which we want to make as smooth as possible.
>
> * Aleksei has been working on migrating our test to JUnit 5 and faced 
> multiple issues with ANT. He provided five new features to the ANT project to 
> fix the problems he encountered and some got rejected.
>
>
>
> I totally agree with your feeling that the current solution works for now and 
> that staying with it is also a valid choice. I do like ANT. The question for 
> me is really if ANT makes sense for the future of Cassandra. From the 
> feedback I got, I start to doubt that it is the case.
>
>
>
> Le jeu. 3 févr. 2022 à 09:32, bened...@apache.org  a 
> écrit :
>
> I’m going to be a killjoy and once again query what value changing build 
> system brings, that outweighs the disruption to current long-term 
> contributors that can easily get things done today?
>
>
>
> At the very least there should be a ranked choice vote that includes today’s 
> build system.
>
>
>
> From: Maulin Vasavada 
> Date: Thursday, 3 February 2022 at 05:52
> To: dev@cassandra.apache.org 
> Subject: Re: Build tool
>
> Hi Aleksei
>
>
>
> I was thinking about the same - build tool. I have used both - Maven and 
> Gradle. In my experience, while Gradle has a rich DSL and the corresponding 
> power, with constant changes in Gradle across versions it is difficult to 
> focus on the actual product (like Cassandra in this case) development. With 
> Maven the learning is once and it doesn't change that much and one can focus 
> on the actual product better.
>
>
>
> Of course, this is IMHO. +1 for using Maven. I would like to participate in 
> the migration of the build tool if it needs more hands.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Maulin
>
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 2, 2022 at 2:35 PM Aleksei Zotov  wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> Some time ago I created https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-17015 
> to migrate from ant to maven/gradle. Originally I was going to implement 
> both, compare and pick the best in terms of project needs. However, now I 
> feel it would be a significant overhead to try out both. Therefore, I'd like 
> to make a collective decision on the build tool before starting any actual 
> work.
>
> I saw on Slack 
> (https://app.slack.com/client/T4S1WH2J3/CK23JSY2K/thread/CK23JSY2K-1643748908.929809)
>  that many people prefer maven. I'm leaning towards maven as well.
>
> I guess we need to have a formal poll on the build tool since it is a 
> significant part of the project. Please, suggest what the best way to proceed 
> is. Should I just raise a vote for maven and just see if someone -1 in favor 
> of gradle?
>
> PS:
> Please, bear in mind that Robert has already made some progress on gradle 
> migration. I do not know how much is done there and whether he is willing to 
> get it completed.
>
> On 2020/06/02 13:39:34 Robert Stupp wrote:
> > Yea - it's already in a pretty good state.
> >
> > Some work-in-progress-state is already available in either
> > https://github.com/snazy/cassandra/tree/tryout-gradle (or
> > https://github.com/snazy/cassandra/tree/tryout-gradle-dist-test with an
> > additional commit).
> >
> > I already use it on

Re: Build tool

[Benjamin Lerer]

>
> I don’t have a super strong desire to stay with ant, I just have a desire
> not to unduly burden the project with unnecessary churn. Tooling changes
> can be quite painful.


Aleksei has proven that he was able to deliver work of quality and to push
things forward. He is willing to try to tackle that work. I am in favor of
giving him the chance to do it.
I fully agree that it is not a simple task but I am also convinced that
other people might be interested in joining the effort.

With regards to contributions, this is often brought up but the reality is
> the project has always struggled to bring in new ongoing contributors, in
> large part due to the barrier to entry of such a complex project (which has
> only grown as our expectations on patch quality have gone up). I struggle
> to believe that ANT is more than a rounding error on our efficacy here,
> since we have always struggled.
>

I think we found some way around the barrier to entry :-). I will trigger
another discussion about that.

Le jeu. 3 févr. 2022 à 10:17, bened...@apache.org  a
écrit :

> I don’t have a super strong desire to stay with ant, I just have a desire
> not to unduly burden the project with unnecessary churn. Tooling changes
> can be quite painful.
>
>
>
> With regards to contributions, this is often brought up but the reality is
> the project has always struggled to bring in new ongoing contributors, in
> large part due to the barrier to entry of such a complex project (which has
> only grown as our expectations on patch quality have gone up). I struggle
> to believe that ANT is more than a rounding error on our efficacy here,
> since we have always struggled.
>
>
>
> If we’re struggling to actually use ant how we want that’s another matter,
> but it’s easy to forget how much just works for us with ant, and forget the
> things we will have pain with adopting a new build system. I have had more
> frustration with Gradle in a few months than I have with ant in a decade.
> I’m sure Maven is better, but I doubt it will be without issue.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Benjamin Lerer 
> *Date: *Thursday, 3 February 2022 at 09:03
> *To: *dev@cassandra.apache.org 
> *Subject: *Re: Build tool
>
> I think that there are 2 main issues (Aleksei can correct me):
>
> * ANT is pretty old and a lot of newcomers are unfamiliar with it and
> surprised by it. By consequence, it might slow down the on-boarding of
> newcomers which we want to make as smooth as possible.
>
> * Aleksei has been working on migrating our test to JUnit 5 and faced
> multiple issues with ANT. He provided five new features to the ANT project
> to fix the problems he encountered and some got rejected.
>
>
>
> I totally agree with your feeling that the current solution works for now
> and that staying with it is also a valid choice. I do like ANT. The
> question for me is really if ANT makes sense for the future of Cassandra.
> From the feedback I got, I start to doubt that it is the case.
>
>
>
> Le jeu. 3 févr. 2022 à 09:32, bened...@apache.org  a
> écrit :
>
> I’m going to be a killjoy and once again query what value changing build
> system brings, that outweighs the disruption to current long-term
> contributors that can easily get things done today?
>
>
>
> At the very least there should be a ranked choice vote that includes
> today’s build system.
>
>
>
> *From: *Maulin Vasavada 
> *Date: *Thursday, 3 February 2022 at 05:52
> *To: *dev@cassandra.apache.org 
> *Subject: *Re: Build tool
>
> Hi Aleksei
>
>
>
> I was thinking about the same - build tool. I have used both - Maven and
> Gradle. In my experience, while Gradle has a rich DSL and the corresponding
> power, with constant changes in Gradle across versions it is difficult to
> focus on the actual product (like Cassandra in this case) development. With
> Maven the learning is once and it doesn't change that much and one can
> focus on the actual product better.
>
>
>
> Of course, this is IMHO. +1 for using Maven. I would like to participate
> in the migration of the build tool if it needs more hands.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Maulin
>
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 2, 2022 at 2:35 PM Aleksei Zotov  wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> Some time ago I created
> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-17015 to migrate from ant
> to maven/gradle. Originally I was going to implement both, compare and pick
> the best in terms of project needs. However, now I feel it would be a
> significant overhead to try out both. Therefore, I'd like to make a
> collective decision on the build tool before starting any actual work.
>
> I saw on Slack (
> https://app.slack.com/client/T4S1WH2J3/CK23JSY2K/thread/CK23JSY2K-1643748908.929809)
> that many people prefer maven. I'm leaning towards maven as well.
>
> I guess we need to have a formal poll on the build tool since it is a
> significant part of the project. Please, suggest what the best way to
> proceed is. Should I just raise a vote for maven and just see if someone -1
> in favor of gradle?
>
> PS:
> Please, bea

Re: Build tool

[bened...@apache.org]

> Aleksei has proven that he was able to deliver work of quality and to push 
> things forward. He is willing to try to tackle that work.

I am not questioning his ability to deliver, I am questioning the value of 
burdening the project with this migration?

I am productive today with ant. I will almost certainly take a productivity hit 
sometime during and after the migration to maven, as will others.

From: Benjamin Lerer 
Date: Thursday, 3 February 2022 at 10:13
To: dev@cassandra.apache.org 
Subject: Re: Build tool
I don’t have a super strong desire to stay with ant, I just have a desire not 
to unduly burden the project with unnecessary churn. Tooling changes can be 
quite painful.

Aleksei has proven that he was able to deliver work of quality and to push 
things forward. He is willing to try to tackle that work. I am in favor of 
giving him the chance to do it.
I fully agree that it is not a simple task but I am also convinced that other 
people might be interested in joining the effort.

With regards to contributions, this is often brought up but the reality is the 
project has always struggled to bring in new ongoing contributors, in large 
part due to the barrier to entry of such a complex project (which has only 
grown as our expectations on patch quality have gone up). I struggle to believe 
that ANT is more than a rounding error on our efficacy here, since we have 
always struggled.

I think we found some way around the barrier to entry :-). I will trigger 
another discussion about that.

Le jeu. 3 févr. 2022 à 10:17, bened...@apache.org 
mailto:bened...@apache.org>> a écrit :
I don’t have a super strong desire to stay with ant, I just have a desire not 
to unduly burden the project with unnecessary churn. Tooling changes can be 
quite painful.

With regards to contributions, this is often brought up but the reality is the 
project has always struggled to bring in new ongoing contributors, in large 
part due to the barrier to entry of such a complex project (which has only 
grown as our expectations on patch quality have gone up). I struggle to believe 
that ANT is more than a rounding error on our efficacy here, since we have 
always struggled.

If we’re struggling to actually use ant how we want that’s another matter, but 
it’s easy to forget how much just works for us with ant, and forget the things 
we will have pain with adopting a new build system. I have had more frustration 
with Gradle in a few months than I have with ant in a decade. I’m sure Maven is 
better, but I doubt it will be without issue.


From: Benjamin Lerer mailto:b.le...@gmail.com>>
Date: Thursday, 3 February 2022 at 09:03
To: dev@cassandra.apache.org 
mailto:dev@cassandra.apache.org>>
Subject: Re: Build tool
I think that there are 2 main issues (Aleksei can correct me):
* ANT is pretty old and a lot of newcomers are unfamiliar with it and surprised 
by it. By consequence, it might slow down the on-boarding of newcomers which we 
want to make as smooth as possible.
* Aleksei has been working on migrating our test to JUnit 5 and faced multiple 
issues with ANT. He provided five new features to the ANT project to fix the 
problems he encountered and some got rejected.

I totally agree with your feeling that the current solution works for now and 
that staying with it is also a valid choice. I do like ANT. The question for me 
is really if ANT makes sense for the future of Cassandra. From the feedback I 
got, I start to doubt that it is the case.

Le jeu. 3 févr. 2022 à 09:32, bened...@apache.org 
mailto:bened...@apache.org>> a écrit :
I’m going to be a killjoy and once again query what value changing build system 
brings, that outweighs the disruption to current long-term contributors that 
can easily get things done today?

At the very least there should be a ranked choice vote that includes today’s 
build system.

From: Maulin Vasavada 
mailto:maulin.vasav...@gmail.com>>
Date: Thursday, 3 February 2022 at 05:52
To: dev@cassandra.apache.org 
mailto:dev@cassandra.apache.org>>
Subject: Re: Build tool
Hi Aleksei

I was thinking about the same - build tool. I have used both - Maven and 
Gradle. In my experience, while Gradle has a rich DSL and the corresponding 
power, with constant changes in Gradle across versions it is difficult to focus 
on the actual product (like Cassandra in this case) development. With Maven the 
learning is once and it doesn't change that much and one can focus on the 
actual product better.

Of course, this is IMHO. +1 for using Maven. I would like to participate in the 
migration of the build tool if it needs more hands.

Thanks
Maulin

On Wed, Feb 2, 2022 at 2:35 PM Aleksei Zotov 
mailto:azotc...@apache.org>> wrote:
Hi All,

Some time ago I created https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-17015 
to migrate from ant to maven/gradle. Originally I was going to implement bot

Re: Build tool

[Paulo Motta]

> I am productive today with ant. I will almost certainly take a
productivity hit sometime during and after the migration to maven, as will
others.

I took a massive productivity hit when In-JVM dtests landed the codebase,
but this was not a consideration when that framework was added because it
was perceived as a net gain for the project in the long term. In that case
the productivity hit was definitely worth it, and I think in this case it
will be.

I personally don't think the productivity hit of adopting a new build tool
will be very noticeable (nothing that you can't catch up in a couple of
weeks), but in order to not block this effort on this feeling perhaps we
can make reducing the productivity hit an explicit goal of this undertaking
(ie. enumerate potential productivity hits and/or make the UX look as close
as possible to the current).

It could be helpful to come up with a concrete list of benefits and
downsides of adopting a new build tool, to allow the community to decide
whether the change is worth pursuing.

Em qui., 3 de fev. de 2022 às 07:28, bened...@apache.org <
bened...@apache.org> escreveu:

> > Aleksei has proven that he was able to deliver work of quality and to
> push things forward. He is willing to try to tackle that work.
>
>
>
> I am not questioning his ability to deliver, I am questioning the value of
> burdening the project with this migration?
>
>
>
> I am productive today with ant. I will almost certainly take a
> productivity hit sometime during and after the migration to maven, as will
> others.
>
>
>
> *From: *Benjamin Lerer 
> *Date: *Thursday, 3 February 2022 at 10:13
> *To: *dev@cassandra.apache.org 
> *Subject: *Re: Build tool
>
> I don’t have a super strong desire to stay with ant, I just have a desire
> not to unduly burden the project with unnecessary churn. Tooling changes
> can be quite painful.
>
>
>
> Aleksei has proven that he was able to deliver work of quality and to push
> things forward. He is willing to try to tackle that work. I am in favor of
> giving him the chance to do it.
>
> I fully agree that it is not a simple task but I am also convinced that
> other people might be interested in joining the effort.
>
>
>
> With regards to contributions, this is often brought up but the reality is
> the project has always struggled to bring in new ongoing contributors, in
> large part due to the barrier to entry of such a complex project (which has
> only grown as our expectations on patch quality have gone up). I struggle
> to believe that ANT is more than a rounding error on our efficacy here,
> since we have always struggled.
>
>
>
> I think we found some way around the barrier to entry :-). I will trigger
> another discussion about that.
>
>
>
> Le jeu. 3 févr. 2022 à 10:17, bened...@apache.org  a
> écrit :
>
> I don’t have a super strong desire to stay with ant, I just have a desire
> not to unduly burden the project with unnecessary churn. Tooling changes
> can be quite painful.
>
>
>
> With regards to contributions, this is often brought up but the reality is
> the project has always struggled to bring in new ongoing contributors, in
> large part due to the barrier to entry of such a complex project (which has
> only grown as our expectations on patch quality have gone up). I struggle
> to believe that ANT is more than a rounding error on our efficacy here,
> since we have always struggled.
>
>
>
> If we’re struggling to actually use ant how we want that’s another matter,
> but it’s easy to forget how much just works for us with ant, and forget the
> things we will have pain with adopting a new build system. I have had more
> frustration with Gradle in a few months than I have with ant in a decade.
> I’m sure Maven is better, but I doubt it will be without issue.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Benjamin Lerer 
> *Date: *Thursday, 3 February 2022 at 09:03
> *To: *dev@cassandra.apache.org 
> *Subject: *Re: Build tool
>
> I think that there are 2 main issues (Aleksei can correct me):
>
> * ANT is pretty old and a lot of newcomers are unfamiliar with it and
> surprised by it. By consequence, it might slow down the on-boarding of
> newcomers which we want to make as smooth as possible.
>
> * Aleksei has been working on migrating our test to JUnit 5 and faced
> multiple issues with ANT. He provided five new features to the ANT project
> to fix the problems he encountered and some got rejected.
>
>
>
> I totally agree with your feeling that the current solution works for now
> and that staying with it is also a valid choice. I do like ANT. The
> question for me is really if ANT makes sense for the future of Cassandra.
> From the feedback I got, I start to doubt that it is the case.
>
>
>
> Le jeu. 3 févr. 2022 à 09:32, bened...@apache.org  a
> écrit :
>
> I’m going to be a killjoy and once again query what value changing build
> system brings, that outweighs the disruption to current long-term
> contributors that can easily get things done today?
>
>
>
> At the very least th

Re: Build tool

[bened...@apache.org]

> I took a massive productivity hit when In-JVM dtests landed the codebase

These introduced new capabilities that were well understood as outcomes at the 
time. Here we are proposing replacing something that works fine, with something 
that works equivalently.

The build file is not only consumed as a user, but also edited by everyone on 
the project. Most are familiar with it, can navigate it and edit it. This will 
be lost in any migration.

Sure, like any migration it can be justified by its benefits. I just haven’t 
see anything specific besides that ant is “old” and people are “surprised” we 
use it. So what? It works. Sometimes things might be painful for some folk to 
do, but that will be true in any new build system, no?



From: Paulo Motta 
Date: Thursday, 3 February 2022 at 11:53
To: Cassandra DEV 
Subject: Re: Build tool
> I am productive today with ant. I will almost certainly take a productivity 
> hit sometime during and after the migration to maven, as will others.

I took a massive productivity hit when In-JVM dtests landed the codebase, but 
this was not a consideration when that framework was added because it was 
perceived as a net gain for the project in the long term. In that case the 
productivity hit was definitely worth it, and I think in this case it will be.
I personally don't think the productivity hit of adopting a new build tool will 
be very noticeable (nothing that you can't catch up in a couple of weeks), but 
in order to not block this effort on this feeling perhaps we can make reducing 
the productivity hit an explicit goal of this undertaking (ie. enumerate 
potential productivity hits and/or make the UX look as close as possible to the 
current).

It could be helpful to come up with a concrete list of benefits and downsides 
of adopting a new build tool, to allow the community to decide whether the 
change is worth pursuing.

Em qui., 3 de fev. de 2022 às 07:28, 
bened...@apache.org 
mailto:bened...@apache.org>> escreveu:
> Aleksei has proven that he was able to deliver work of quality and to push 
> things forward. He is willing to try to tackle that work.

I am not questioning his ability to deliver, I am questioning the value of 
burdening the project with this migration?

I am productive today with ant. I will almost certainly take a productivity hit 
sometime during and after the migration to maven, as will others.

From: Benjamin Lerer mailto:ble...@apache.org>>
Date: Thursday, 3 February 2022 at 10:13
To: dev@cassandra.apache.org 
mailto:dev@cassandra.apache.org>>
Subject: Re: Build tool
I don’t have a super strong desire to stay with ant, I just have a desire not 
to unduly burden the project with unnecessary churn. Tooling changes can be 
quite painful.

Aleksei has proven that he was able to deliver work of quality and to push 
things forward. He is willing to try to tackle that work. I am in favor of 
giving him the chance to do it.
I fully agree that it is not a simple task but I am also convinced that other 
people might be interested in joining the effort.

With regards to contributions, this is often brought up but the reality is the 
project has always struggled to bring in new ongoing contributors, in large 
part due to the barrier to entry of such a complex project (which has only 
grown as our expectations on patch quality have gone up). I struggle to believe 
that ANT is more than a rounding error on our efficacy here, since we have 
always struggled.

I think we found some way around the barrier to entry :-). I will trigger 
another discussion about that.

Le jeu. 3 févr. 2022 à 10:17, bened...@apache.org 
mailto:bened...@apache.org>> a écrit :
I don’t have a super strong desire to stay with ant, I just have a desire not 
to unduly burden the project with unnecessary churn. Tooling changes can be 
quite painful.

With regards to contributions, this is often brought up but the reality is the 
project has always struggled to bring in new ongoing contributors, in large 
part due to the barrier to entry of such a complex project (which has only 
grown as our expectations on patch quality have gone up). I struggle to believe 
that ANT is more than a rounding error on our efficacy here, since we have 
always struggled.

If we’re struggling to actually use ant how we want that’s another matter, but 
it’s easy to forget how much just works for us with ant, and forget the things 
we will have pain with adopting a new build system. I have had more frustration 
with Gradle in a few months than I have with ant in a decade. I’m sure Maven is 
better, but I doubt it will be without issue.


From: Benjamin Lerer mailto:b.le...@gmail.com>>
Date: Thursday, 3 February 2022 at 09:03
To: dev@cassandra.apache.org 
mailto:dev@cassandra.apache.org>>
Subject: Re: Build tool
I think that there are 2 main issues (Aleksei can correct me):
* ANT is pretty 

Re: Build tool

[Brandon Williams]

On Thu, Feb 3, 2022 at 3:23 AM bened...@apache.org  wrote:

> If we’re struggling to actually use ant how we want that’s another matter, 
> but it’s easy to forget how much just works for us with ant

If you don't regularly work on the build system, it may be easy to
forget that ant works by actually trying to be maven.  First we had
maven-ant-tasks, and then when that was deprecated we had to switch to
resolver-ant-tasks (in quite a rush at the time) so that we could do
needed releases.

For the fact that our ant is a poor maven implementation, I am +1 on maven.

Re: Build tool

[bened...@apache.org]

I have been in the guts of build.xml probably a lot more than you realise.

It pretends to be Maven for dependency management, but this is a small part of 
the job of a build file.


From: Brandon Williams 
Date: Thursday, 3 February 2022 at 13:07
To: dev 
Subject: Re: Build tool
On Thu, Feb 3, 2022 at 3:23 AM bened...@apache.org  wrote:

> If we’re struggling to actually use ant how we want that’s another matter, 
> but it’s easy to forget how much just works for us with ant

If you don't regularly work on the build system, it may be easy to
forget that ant works by actually trying to be maven.  First we had
maven-ant-tasks, and then when that was deprecated we had to switch to
resolver-ant-tasks (in quite a rush at the time) so that we could do
needed releases.

For the fact that our ant is a poor maven implementation, I am +1 on maven.

Re: Build tool

[Brandon Williams]

On Thu, Feb 3, 2022 at 7:19 AM bened...@apache.org  wrote:
> It pretends to be Maven for dependency management, but this is a small part 
> of the job of a build file.

It doesn't pretend, it actually uses part of the Maven project to
accomplish its goals.  It's half the Maven it could be.

Re: Build tool

[Joshua McKenzie]

Could someone take on clearly enumerating the pros and cons of ant vs.
maven?

Without clarity this is going to keep stagnating as a war of
unsubstantiated opinions and fizzle out like it has so many times in the
past.

I'd like to see it either change or the topic be put to rest. :)


On Thu, Feb 3, 2022 at 8:38 AM Brandon Williams  wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 3, 2022 at 7:19 AM bened...@apache.org 
> wrote:
> > It pretends to be Maven for dependency management, but this is a small
> part of the job of a build file.
>
> It doesn't pretend, it actually uses part of the Maven project to
> accomplish its goals.  It's half the Maven it could be.
>

Re: Build tool

[bened...@apache.org]

+1

If we can get a pros/cons list we can have a ranked choice vote, move forwards, 
and maybe agree not to revisit this for a few years at least?


From: Joshua McKenzie 
Date: Thursday, 3 February 2022 at 13:59
To: dev 
Subject: Re: Build tool
Could someone take on clearly enumerating the pros and cons of ant vs. maven?

Without clarity this is going to keep stagnating as a war of unsubstantiated 
opinions and fizzle out like it has so many times in the past.

I'd like to see it either change or the topic be put to rest. :)


On Thu, Feb 3, 2022 at 8:38 AM Brandon Williams 
mailto:dri...@gmail.com>> wrote:
On Thu, Feb 3, 2022 at 7:19 AM bened...@apache.org 
mailto:bened...@apache.org>> wrote:
> It pretends to be Maven for dependency management, but this is a small part 
> of the job of a build file.

It doesn't pretend, it actually uses part of the Maven project to
accomplish its goals.  It's half the Maven it could be.

Re: [DISCUSS] CEP-7 Storage Attached Index

[Mike Adamson]

I can’t why there would be any objection to adding a guardrail. I think this is 
a good idea.

MikeA

"I see this as a task for a follow-up ticket so long as the CEP’s contributors 
would not oppose the addition of such a guardrail."

> On 3 Feb 2022, at 16:06, C. Scott Andreas  wrote:
> 
> I see this as a task for a follow-up ticket so long as the CEP’s contributors 
> would not oppose the addition of such a guardrail.

Re: Build tool

[Maulin Vasavada]

On the onboarding new contributors I can definitely say that I agree with
the earlier comment about 'getting surprised to see ant' (having worked on
Maven and Gradle for the last 10+ years). Also, I would recount a specific
challenge I had with making the 'examples' folder as a sub-module in
IntelliJ. Not sure if it was Maven, it would simplify anything because I
felt it was partly IntelliJ's caching that gave me a lot of trouble until I
figured out how to make it work predictably for the sub-module. Without
that setup I could not run unit tests from the examples/ssl-factory folder
from the IntelliJ.

Agree that we should prepare pros/cons and have a choice vote.

On Thu, Feb 3, 2022 at 8:05 AM bened...@apache.org 
wrote:

> +1
>
>
>
> If we can get a pros/cons list we can have a ranked choice vote, move
> forwards, and maybe agree not to revisit this for a few years at least?
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Joshua McKenzie 
> *Date: *Thursday, 3 February 2022 at 13:59
> *To: *dev 
> *Subject: *Re: Build tool
>
> Could someone take on clearly enumerating the pros and cons of ant vs.
> maven?
>
>
>
> Without clarity this is going to keep stagnating as a war of
> unsubstantiated opinions and fizzle out like it has so many times in the
> past.
>
>
>
> I'd like to see it either change or the topic be put to rest. :)
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 3, 2022 at 8:38 AM Brandon Williams  wrote:
>
> On Thu, Feb 3, 2022 at 7:19 AM bened...@apache.org 
> wrote:
> > It pretends to be Maven for dependency management, but this is a small
> part of the job of a build file.
>
> It doesn't pretend, it actually uses part of the Maven project to
> accomplish its goals.  It's half the Maven it could be.
>
>