Re: trouble tracking down H264 codec for iceweasel

[moxalt]

Recent versions of Iceweasel should have the OpenH264 decoder plugin available
in the plugin menu. Try purging it and re-installing it. Don't forget to get
rid of your local configs too. What versions of Iceweasel are you running?

I run stretch, and the decoder appeared in my plugins menu after I installed. I
believe both Stretch and Jessie have the same version of Iceweasel (38,
notwithstanding trivial version numbers).

Re: gnome ( panel ) question

[moxalt]

If GNOME is working fine without it, then I doubt you need it. I think
gnome-panel is for GNOME Classic or some such thing, but I'm not sure.

Re: gnome mouse configuration

[moxalt]

Yes, you can. Simply plug in the mouse in question, go to the mouse and
touchpad settings from the control centre, and adjust the settings accordingly.
It should just work (though I am not sure whether the settings persist over
repeated removals and reconnections).

Re: Putting apt-listchanges and dpkg output in mail sent by unattended-upgrades

[moxalt]

So you want to combine the output of unattended-upgrades itself and
apt-listchanges into a single e-mail? Why?

Also, couldn't you just edit the script to make it function as you want it?

Re: Debian 8, KDE Lockup

[moxalt]

Basically, don't use GDM with KDE, and don't run KDE on systems that are short
of RAM. Or at all.

Re: is google earth safe to install?

[moxalt]

PRISM has been watching me my entire life without incident. Yet.

Re: debian-user list problem

[moxalt]

Wait.. so Debian doesn't send your own replies back to you by default? That
seems like a rather strange default (and that behaviour is the default in
mailman).

Re: Video-UNfriendly browsers?

[moxalt]

Seriously, though, as much as you dread returning to lynx, it is the most
bandwith-friendly option on the table. If you don't want videos of any kind,
and are content with just plaintext (and separately downloadable images) you
should be safe. What's so bad about lynx?

Re: Please tipps for Desktop ( gnome, kde, xfce, etc. ) Debian 8 jessie and some minor issues

[moxalt]

> :-)  I *think* you meant to say "terrible". :-)

Don't think so. Winky face says sarcasm.

Re: Please tipps for Desktop ( gnome, kde, xfce, etc. ) Debian 8 jessie and some minor issues

[moxalt]

I was referring to OP's smiley face. I assumed he actually meant terrible, but
surrounded his "terrific" with quotation marks to indicate that sarcastic
tone of voice and added a winky face to indicate lack of seriousness. Never
mind. Massive over-analysis led me to believe it was an elaborate joke.

Now that OP's stepped in to clear things up, turns out it was just an innocent
mistake. Oh well.

Re: debian-user list problem

[moxalt]

> Besides no attribution or quoting

Anyone subscribed to the mailing list and in a client with threading will be
able to see the context, and anyone recently subscribed can look at the
archives for all I care. If a message deserves a point-by-point rebuttal I'll
give it one in the appropriate format.

> you appear to have completely missed understanding the point of this thread.

What I said had nothing to do with 'the point of the entire thread'- seeing as
it's already been resolved. Francesco said that OP was only receiving posts due
to him being CC'd by the sender- I thought that was a bit strange and enquired
as to whether the Debian list sends people's messages back to them by default.
Since I had only just subscribed and had not received any posts back yet I had
cause to wonder.

Be thankful I'm not top-posting.

Re: trouble tracking down H264 codec for iceweasel

[moxalt]

On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 04:44:07 +1100, Andrew McGlashan
 wrote:

> On 12/10/2015 3:25 AM, bri...@aracnet.com wrote:
> > I've got two systems running jessie.
> > 
> > Somehow iceweasel on one system has got the cisco OpenH264 decoder
> > installed, but the other one doesn't.
> > 
> > I can't seem to track down how I've managed to install it.
> > 
> > Anybody know how I can get it enabled for iceweasel in Jessie ?
> 
> Perhaps an online webinar?
> 
> A.

What? You hardly need 'an online webinar' to find a plugin. I am more than a
bit confused.

Re: gnome ( panel ) question

[moxalt]

On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 10:19:23 +1300, Chris Bannister
 wrote:

> On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 08:45:32PM +0300, moxalt wrote:
> > If GNOME is working fine without it, then I doubt you need it. I think
> > gnome-panel is for GNOME Classic or some such thing, but I'm not sure.
> 
> What is this mail pertaining to? 
> Each mail in a thread should make at least some sense on its own.

Okay. Fine. There. Quoting is on. Happy?

Re: debian-user list problem

[moxalt]

On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 18:04:03 +0300, moxalt  wrote:

> > Besides no attribution or quoting
> 
> Anyone subscribed to the mailing list and in a client with threading will be
> able to see the context, and anyone recently subscribed can look at the
> archives for all I care. If a message deserves a point-by-point rebuttal I'll
> give it one in the appropriate format.
> 
> > you appear to have completely missed understanding the point of this thread.
> 
> What I said had nothing to do with 'the point of the entire thread'- seeing as
> it's already been resolved. Francesco said that OP was only receiving posts
> due to him being CC'd by the sender- I thought that was a bit strange and
> enquired as to whether the Debian list sends people's messages back to them
> by default. Since I had only just subscribed and had not received any posts
> back yet I had cause to wonder.
> 
> Be thankful I'm not top-posting.

Ah, screw it. I quote now.

Re: debian-user list problem

[moxalt]

On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 16:40:22 +0100, Lisi Reisz  wrote:

> On Monday 12 October 2015 16:04:03 moxalt wrote:
> > I thought that was a bit strange and enquired
> > as to whether the Debian list sends people's messages back to them by
> > default. Since I had only just subscribed and had not received any posts
> > back yet I had cause to wonder.
> 
> I get mine back, provided that I don't use GMail's SMTP.  If I use my ISP's 
> SMTP server I get them back.
> 
> Lisi

A post that was actually helpful and informative, rather than bitching about my
posting etiquette. Thank you.

Re: Putting apt-listchanges and dpkg output in mail sent by unattended-upgrades

[moxalt]

On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 19:43:00 +0200, Ondřej Grover 
wrote:

> Because I get such emails for more hosts and it's inconvenient to try to
> match up the changelogs with reports. I would also like to see the full log
> for needrestart output.
> 
> As I asked in my original question, I'd like to know what the most
> "Debian-proper" way for editing such scripts is. If that is to roll my own
> package with a patch, I wonder what the recommended and most maintainable
> way is these days.
> 
> Kind regards,
> Ondřej Grover

The most "Debian-proper" way? I'm not really sure- I would edit the script
myself and just keep that as the local version. The only problem is that newer
versions of the package would probably overwrite it- but they may offer a
'local version of config' menu like GRUB and libpolkit do. Try it. The worst
that could happen is that you'll have to make the appropriate edits again after
an upgrade- but you'll probably be fine if you keep a backup.

Rolling your own package seems a bit overkill for what you're trying to do.

Re: apt-get update hanging on security and backports.

[moxalt]

On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 16:20:11 -0400, Ed Jabbour  wrote:

> On Monday, October 12, 2015 02:34:25 AM Reco wrote:
> > Hi.
> > 
> > On Sun, 11 Oct 2015 21:19:32 -0400
> > 
> > Ed Jabbour  wrote:
> > > Running Wheezy.  Recently, update has been hanging on
> > > http://security.debian.org/ wheezy/updates main and
> > > http://http.debian.net/debian wheezy-backports main.  
> > 
> > Have you tested the possibility of MTU blackhole somewhere between
> > you and security.debian.org?
> > 
> > I.e. given conventional Ethernet, and normal circumstances, this
> > should work:
> > 
> > ping -s 1472 -M dont -c 4 security.debian.org
> > 
> > But if something just discards IP packets with MTU 1500 along the
> > way, such ping would fail.
> > 
> > Reco
> 
> I ran it and got:
> 
> [Mon Oct 12]~ $ ping -s 1472 -M dont -c 4 security.debian.org
> PING security.debian.org (128.61.240.73) 1472(1500) bytes of data.
> 1480 bytes from sechter.debian.org (128.61.240.73): icmp_req=1 ttl=52 
> time=70.3 mshttp.debian.net/
> 1480 bytes from sechter.debian.org (128.61.240.73): icmp_req=2 ttl=52 
> time=70.5 ms
> 1480 bytes from sechter.debian.org (128.61.240.73): icmp_req=3 ttl=52 
> time=70.7 ms
> 1480 bytes from sechter.debian.org (128.61.240.73): icmp_req=4 ttl=52 
> time=70.7 ms
> 
> Looks OK to me.  I changed the backports repo from debian.net to 
> uchicago.edu and everything just flows.  Now, if I can only find the 
> problem with security.debian.net, which as I understand it, has no 
> trustworthy mirrors

You should try using http://ftp.acc.umu.se/debian/ for your stable,
stable-updates and such. By far the best and fastest Debian mirror I know of.
For security, try using http://security.debian.org/ as opposed to .net.

Re: Unable to Install Stretch on Laptop, not Loading iwlwifi

[moxalt]

On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 16:13:21 -0700 (PDT), ray  wrote:

> On Monday, October 12, 2015 at 7:20:04 AM UTC-5, Sven Arvidsson wrote:
> > On Mon, 2015-10-12 at 04:48 -0700, ray wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > It might be easier to simply use installation media with the firmware
> > included:
> > 
> > http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/
> > 
> Sven,
> 
> Thank you.  I downloaded the file, built the iso and ran it.  I get the same
> results as above.  

'built the iso'- what do you mean by this? I presume you meant 'wrote the iso'?

> I am wondering if I may be operating the GUI incorrectly.  The laptop has a
> very high resolution.  I have to magnify the scrren to read it.  I do not see
> the typical two bottons in the bottom right corner.  I may not be operating
> this correctly - or there are no buttons there at this stage.

I'm not sure what you're referring to as 'the GUI'- if you're using the
netinstall CD with non-free firmware as recommended by Sven, you should have a
text-based ncurses-based interface, as opposed to the graphical installer.

Your second suggestion I think is probably what actually happened. During the
'hardware detection' phase of the installation process (where as you noted,
there are indeed no buttons), it can sometimes hang for a bit, usually for a few
seconds. It can take up to a few minutes on some machines, though. Be patient.

Re: unlisted mirrors & non-gui installation

[moxalt]

On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 23:07:35 -0500, Adrian O'Dell  wrote:

> Previously during install, when selecting which Mirror to use, one could 
> press the up arrow and get a line to input a custom mirror location, 
> such as one kept locally. This feature seems to have been removed from 
> Debian8 installer.
> 
> ***
> 
> For a console-only (non-gui) environment, there should be added to the 
> list of GUIs "Console-Only" (or whatever wording you desire). Currently 
> it is assumed that no selection means no gui, which makes sense HOWEVER 
> if one deselected the bottom option "standard system utilities" gnome is 
> installed.
> 
> "standard system utilities" is vague; one would think this is such like 
> whois, tracert, etc. Perhaps this option should be removed, in tandem 
> with "Console-Only" being added.

So what does 'standard system utilities' actually mean? What does it install? I
always install from netinstall, and prefer text-mode environments. I usually
install X and a window manager later so I don't have to deal with a login
manager. In the past, I was always unsure of what 'standard system utilities'
actually meant, but took it as a euphemism for a basic text-mode environment.
Is this the case?

Re: Plymouth theme with Caps Lock indication.

[moxalt]

On Tue, 13 Oct 2015 11:43:58 +0200, Erwan David  wrote:

>   Hello,
> 
> I hava a laptop with encrytped FS, thus at boot I must enter the
> decryption password. However, the keyboard does not have a led for
> caps-lock indication, so I am looking for a way to see it at this very
> early stage (ie before boot). Is there a plymouth theme with this
> indication ?
> 
> Thank you

I don't think so. Just make sure you don't accidentally turn on caps lock when
entering your decryption password. Is that such a problem? At worst, you'll
have to retype it.

Re: Plymouth theme with Caps Lock indication.

[moxalt]

On Tue, 13 Oct 2015 18:19:46 +0200, Erwan David  wrote:

> Le 13/10/2015 16:45, moxalt a écrit :
> > On Tue, 13 Oct 2015 11:43:58 +0200, Erwan David  wrote:
> >
> >>Hello,
> >>
> >> I hava a laptop with encrytped FS, thus at boot I must enter the
> >> decryption password. However, the keyboard does not have a led for
> >> caps-lock indication, so I am looking for a way to see it at this very
> >> early stage (ie before boot). Is there a plymouth theme with this
> >> indication ?
> >>
> >> Thank you
> > I don't think so. Just make sure you don't accidentally turn on caps lock
> > when entering your decryption password. Is that such a problem? At worst,
> > you'll have to retype it.
> >
> >
> 
> Problem is I do not know whether I hit capslock or not... Only that once
> in a while I do not succed in entering it and finish by rebooting the
> laptop...

You'll just to have to make extra sure you don't press it then, since there
doesn't seem to be a Plymouth theme with the capability you describe. Unless
you want to write it.. ;)

Re: Unable to Install Stretch on Laptop, not Loading iwlwifi

[moxalt]

On Tue, 13 Oct 2015 12:21:16 -0700 (PDT), ray  wrote:

> The above reference was for the 'free' version.  I have not been able to get
> the non-free to boot.  I have wiped the Win OS and now it just says no
> bootable device.  So I will write to another stick and see it that works.

This seems very strange- if you are able to get the free version to boot you
should be able to get the non-free ISO to boot as well. They are identical,
save the inclusion of non-free firmware.

The 'no bootable device' message- does this occur when you select the hard
drive as the boot device, or the USB? The hard drive is understandable (since
there is no longer a boot loader or operating system on it) but this really
should not happen with the USB. Can you describe your BIOS settings to us?
UEFI, Secure Boot, CSM, that sort of thing.

I would also recommend you prepare the boot device with Rufus. It is by far the
best USB ISO writer for Windows. Pity you don't have access to a UNIX box with
dd...

> > Your second suggestion I think is probably what actually happened. During
> > the 'hardware detection' phase of the installation process (where as you
> > noted, there are indeed no buttons), it can sometimes hang for a bit,
> > usually for a few seconds. It can take up to a few minutes on some
> > machines, though. Be patient.
> 
> I will apply another dose of patience.  Thank you.

Good luck.

Re: gnome mouse configuration

[moxalt]

On Wed, 14 Oct 2015 06:30:40 +0200, Peter Berlau  wrote:

> Hi,
> I know the option in the 'control center', but different from gnome 
> i could define the behavior for each single mouse, tablet individual and
> persistant..
> I could not find this option or, maybe, it does not exist.  Not bad at
> all.
> 
> Best Regards, Peter
>  
> 
> Am Sonntag, den 11.10.2015, 20:47 +0300 schrieb moxalt:
> > Yes, you can. Simply plug in the mouse in question, go to the mouse and
> > touchpad settings from the control centre, and adjust the settings
> > accordingly. It should just work (though I am not sure whether the settings
> > persist over repeated removals and reconnections).

That's strange. In GNOME I distinctly recall being able to access a range of
tabs for all connected pointer input devices (mice, touchpads, etc.). I'm not
sure. I use Xfce.

Re: Putting apt-listchanges and dpkg output in mail sent by unattended-upgrades

[moxalt]

On Tue, 13 Oct 2015 19:22:55 +0200, Ondřej Grover 
wrote:

> >
> > The most "Debian-proper" way? I'm not really sure- I would edit the script
> > myself and just keep that as the local version. The only problem is that
> > newer
> > versions of the package would probably overwrite it- but they may offer a
> > 'local version of config' menu like GRUB and libpolkit do.
> 
> That happens for conffiles which are files under /etc or are listed in
> debian/conffiles in the deb archive. So that would again mean I'd have to
> modify the package
> 
> > Rolling your own package seems a bit overkill for what you're trying to do.
> >
> It wouldn't be an overkill if there was a simple way to manage a local
> repository and packages with custom modifications. I have looked around and
> it didn't seem that straight-forward. Is there some helper tool perhaps?

Even if you were able to manage a local repository of some sort, the only way
you would be able to prevent your custom .debs from being overwritten is by
assigning them really high version numbers so that they are never overwritten
by updates. Of course, you wouldn't be able to get official Debian updates that
way, which could cause problems later. The same is true if you just made a
modified standalone .deb.

You have two options- either make a custom package once and for all (but never
get updates) or edit it locally and backup your edits so that you can restore
them after updates. I would take the second option. It's not as if
apt-listchanges and dpkg get updated every day- and when they do it's just a
simple copy-paste job from your backed up script.

Re: Unable to Install Stretch on Laptop, not Loading iwlwifi

[moxalt]

On Thu, 15 Oct 2015 04:51:49 -0700 (PDT), ray  wrote:

> > This seems very strange- if you are able to get the free version to boot you
> > should be able to get the non-free ISO to boot as well. They are identical,
> > save the inclusion of non-free firmware.
>  Yes.
> > 
> > The 'no bootable device' message- does this occur when you select the hard
> > drive as the boot device, or the USB? The hard drive is understandable
> > (since there is no longer a boot loader or operating system on it) but this
> > really should not happen with the USB. Can you describe your BIOS settings
> > to us? UEFI, Secure Boot, CSM, that sort of thing.
> 
> The 'no bootable device' came with an attempted boot from the hard disk
> (actually an SSD).  I have disabled secure boot.  I do not have the laptop
> with me so I will check that when I get back to it.
> 
>  
> > I would also recommend you prepare the boot device with Rufus. It is by far
> > the best USB ISO writer for Windows. Pity you don't have access to a UNIX
> > box with dd...
> 
> I am using Rufus.  I do have a stretch installation on a desktop. But I have
> not attempted to build an installation disk from there.  But I am very will
> to try that.  Some details on links would be great.

Writing hybrid ISO images to USB under UNIX is easier than you think. I don't
even need to link you anything- I can describe the process right here. Simply
download the Debian ISO image, plug in a USB, make sure it is unmounted, and
then run the following command:

# dd if= of=/dev/ bs=4M;sync

Replace  with the file you wish to write,  with the
device you wish to write to (it must be the master interface, not a partition),
and hit enter. In a few seconds the image should be written, no problem. Remove
the USB and boot as desired.

Here's an example from my own system:

# dd if=debian.iso of=/dev/sdb bs=4M;sync

That writes the file debian.iso to my USB drive at /dev/sdb. BEWARE! Your
system may differ. Use lsblk to determine the name of your USB drive's device-
although usually /dev/sdb, if you have more than one SATA hard drive this may
vary. If you write to the incorrect device, you will end up overwriting things.

Once you get the hang of dd, I assure you that you will find it easier than any
of the graphical Windows USB writing shenanigans. Good luck. dd never fails.

Re: Unable to Install Stretch on Laptop, not Loading iwlwifi

[moxalt]

On Fri, 16 Oct 2015 14:34:22 -0700 (PDT), ray  wrote:

> That sounds great, I will try that right now.
> 
> Can files be added to the USB?
> 
> I am guessing that since the USB is not mounted, DD does not require any type
> of prep.

You won't need to add any files to the image (though you could after writing
by mounting the disk and copying the files) if you use the non-free firmware
image here:
http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/current/amd64/iso-cd/firmware-8.2.0-amd64-netinst.iso
or here if you're computer is 32-bit:
http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/current/i386/iso-cd/firmware-8.2.0-i386-netinst.iso

Use one of those. Good luck.

Re: Unable to Install Stretch on Laptop, not Loading iwlwifi

[moxalt]

On Sat, 17 Oct 2015 07:25:18 -0700 (PDT), ray  wrote:

> OK, I have network connnectivitiy.
> 
> While reveiwing desktop functions and properties, I found the network app.
> All the availabe networks were listed.  I selected the one I want to use,
> input the password and it connected.  So I will hunt down how to provide this
> as an automatic connection.

Congratulations! A winner is you!

Re: Reinstall Stretch - Returns to Grub

[moxalt]

On Sun, 18 Oct 2015 17:17:52 -0700 (PDT), ray  wrote:

> I have stretch installed on a Toshiba and I am not able to reinstall it.  
> The first instance was installed using the BIOS mode CSM.  I want to
> reinstall using UEFI.

Why do you want UEFI? You've got a working installation from CSM.

Re: help on ticket 122312

[moxalt]

On Tue, 20 Oct 2015 10:08:00 +0100, Lisi Reisz  wrote:

> On Tuesday 20 October 2015 08:56:12 zorba@tmail.tv wrote:
> > Hi All
> > Can you help with ticket 122312
> >
> > Thank you
> > Ken
> >
> > ---
> > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> > http://www.avast.com  
> 
> I for one don't know what you are talking about, I'm afraid.  Could you 
> elaborate?
> 
> Lisi

http://tmail.tv/index.html sure is one suspicious site. I think this is spam,
of the cryptic, purposeless, and indecipherable sort.

Re: hola buenas tardes necesito ayuda con debian 8

[moxalt]

On Mon, 19 Oct 2015 02:09:06 -0300, Jabyr Hurtado  wrote:

> hola buenas noches me llamo jabyr y so de antofagasta chile bueno soy
> usuario nuevo en debian y sabes que desde que lo instale e tenido problemas
> y me di cuenta que se debe a problemas con el kernel o nucleo de linux con
> lo poco y nada que se de debian e tratado de instalar programas me da error
> inicio como usuario root también utilizo el comando apt-get error, aptitude
> arror instalo los repositorios error todo me sale error a la hora de
> instalar algo lo unico que quiero es poder instalar unetbootin y reinstalar
> debian desde un nuevo iso como lo hago o que solucion me dan gracias

Please write legibly, using capitalisation, punctuation, and avoiding run-on
sentences, like your last post. Even in Spanish that was a pain to read.

Oh, and https://lists.debian.org/debian-user-spanish/ may be of utility.

Re: Google Chrome

[moxalt]

On Tue, 20 Oct 2015 08:28:41 -0700, Charles Chambers  wrote:

> I just had google-chrome-stable update to Version 46.0.2490.71-1 via 
> System update.  There's an open bug I reported to Google on this exact 
> version.  I checked bugs.debian.org and find that google-chrome-stable 
> has no package maintainer within the Debian organization to which bugs 
> are reported.
> 
> The open bug (#544160) is here:
> 
> Google bug report 
> 
> 
> Two questions:
> 
> 1)  How do I find and turn off the repository that google-chrome-stable 
> is coming from so that it doesn't update until Google is able to fix the 
> bug?  I REALLY like and use Chrome heavily.
> 
> 2)  Is there anyone to report this to?
> 
> Charlie

Use Chromium. It is packaged by Debian, almost identical to Chrome (but faster)
and above all, free software.

Re: help on ticket 122312

[moxalt]

On Tue, 20 Oct 2015 09:31:38 -0500, Mario Castelán Castro
 wrote:

> Originally I thought that "ticket 122312" referred to a Debian bug by 
> its number. I checked, and it seems very unlikely, because it was filled 
> in 2001.
> 
> What does the spammer has to gain sending spam like this? I did not open 
> tmail.tv.
> 
> Regards.
> 
> > Hi All
> > Can you help with ticket 122312
> >
> > Thank you
> > Ken
> >
> > ---
> > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> > http://www.avast.com

I often wonder..

Also, please don't top post.

Re: installing/using grub-legacy

[moxalt]

On Fri, 23 Oct 2015 23:20:08 +0100, Brian  wrote:

> On Fri 23 Oct 2015 at 22:37:32 +0100, Lisi Reisz wrote:
> 
> > On Friday 23 October 2015 19:51:17 Brian wrote:  
> > >
> > > To be pedantic: GRUB2 and GRUB1 don't exist in Debian. They don't really
> > > exist under those names on the GNU website either or in the
> > > documentation. It is GRUB or GRUB-legacy. People like harking back to a
> > > time long past though.  
> > 
> > Yes, I do know that - see my first email.  But GRUB-PC is also an obsolete 
> > name - and at least you understood what I meant by GRUB1 and GRUB2 however 
> > incorrect the nomenclature - and I did know it was incorrect/obsolete.  I
> > was just trying to be unambiguous.  In which I succeeded.  Once you just 
> > say "GRUB", you have to know to which version of Debian one is referring,
> > to know which GRUB is meant.  
> 
> It is a courtesy to use the names used by upstream. GRUB has been the
> default bootloader in Debian since Squeeze. How many years is that?

Was there a similar outcry over GRUB superseding LILO as there was over systemd
superseding sysvinit?

Re: /bin/sh: 1: lpr: not found on jessie amd64

[moxalt]

On Sun, 25 Oct 2015 03:27:18 + (UTC), "Juan R. de Silva"
 wrote:

> I have Jessie i386 and amd64 installed on 2 different laptops. Wine is 
> installed on both, meaning that i386 architecture is enabled on amd64 
> install.
> 
> Both installation have access to the same printer using the same (i386) 
> driver from Brother. The printer works just fine with all apps on both 
> installs with one exception described below.
> 
> When I run the same application in Wine on i386 install, I can print from 
> the app just fine. 
> 
> However, when I try to print from it on amd64 install the error:"/bin/sh: 
> 1: lpr: not found" is thrown on me.
> 
> I've tested printing with 'lp' from CLI and it works equally well on both 
> installations. Checked out and 'lpr' is not installed on neither of 
> laptops.
> 
> Any suggestions, please?

The packages cups-bsd, lpr, and lprng all have lpr. Try installing them and
removing them in turn, and see which works.

Re: Setting partition type

[moxalt]

On Sat, 24 Oct 2015 12:39:51 -1000, Joel Roth  wrote:

> Reformatting a flash drive, it looks like cfdisk and fdisk
> no longer accept some partition types, such as 'c' for
> 'Win95 FAT (LBA)'.
> 
> sfdisk -c   
> 
> Does accept this type.

What version of fdisk is this?

I'm running fdisk 2.27 (provided by util-linux), which accepts type 'c'.

Re: conflicts in stretch

[moxalt]

On Tue, 27 Oct 2015 02:28:23 +0100, Jens Tobiska  wrote:

> I am running sid/stretch and noticed that for some time now, around 200
> packages have been "kept back" when doing "apt-get upgrade".

Try an apt-get dist-upgrade. Apt-get upgrade only updates packages with new
versions available, while dist-upgrade removes redundant packages and installs
new dependencies as well. Do you dist-upgrade regularly? If not, this may be
the result of packages building up that need to have new dependencies
installed, or need to be removed. Don't worry; it most likely won't remove
anything important, but shuffle existing packages around basically. Try
dist-upgrade and see if that resolves the problem.

> Also installing some other packages (e.g. sqlitebrowser) does not work
> unless I uninstall some 64 other packages.

When I try to install sqlitebrowser on my system, the only other operations
that need to be carried out is the installation of 12 dependencies. In fact the
actual sqlitebrowser package is only listed as requiring 12 dependencies,
including standard stuff like libc, but also a whole bunch of qt libraries. The
situation you describe is very strange. Could you please give us the actual
output of apt-get when trying to install this package, so we can see what it
actually tries to remove?

Also, what desktop environment are you running (if any)?

Re: switch back to gnome 3.16

[moxalt]

On Mon, 26 Oct 2015 17:39:06 +0100, Floris  wrote:

> Op Mon, 26 Oct 2015 17:20:11 +0100 schreef Floris :
> 
> > What is the easiest way to switch back to gnome 3.16, now both testing  
> > and unstable have 3.18?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > floris
> >  
> 
> Steps so far:
> 
> add:
> deb http://snapshot.debian.org/archive/debian/20150601T041739Z/ unstable  
> main non-free contrib
> to /etc/apt/sources.list
> 
> run:
> sudo apt-get -o Acquire::Check-Valid-Until=false update
> 
> tried:
> sudo apt-get install gnome-session=3.16.0-1
> Reading package lists... Done
> Building dependency tree
> Reading state information... Done
> Some packages could not be installed. This may mean that you have
> requested an impossible situation or if you are using the unstable
> distribution that some required packages have not yet been created
> or been moved out of Incoming.
> The following information may help to resolve the situation:
> 
> The following packages have unmet dependencies:
>   gnome-session : Depends: gnome-session-bin (< 3.17) but 3.18.1.2-1 is to  
> be installed
>   Depends: gnome-session-common (= 3.16.0-1) but 3.18.1.2-1  
> is to be installed
> E: Unable to correct problems, you have held broken packages.
> 
> I know I can add all the dependencies by hand, but maybe there is an easy  
> solution.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> floris
> 


Why are you trying to downgrade from 3.18 to 3.16? Is 3.18 not working for you
or something?

Downgrading packages in Debian is very difficult. It has been done, but it is
virtually impossible unless you're willing to do lots of manual.. stuff.

Re: System craches when browsing a web site

[moxalt]

On Mon, 26 Oct 2015 16:40:10 +0100, Abou Al Montacir 
wrote:

> Dear All,
> 
> I tried to browse the following site multiple times using epiphany browser,
> and each time it makes my hole system crash. Only poweroff/poweron can
> recover. https://www.blinq.com/
> 
> While I can understand that epiphany does not support some features and
> craches, I don't understand that the system itself craches. I was not even
> bean able to user ctrl+alt+F1 to kill the process. I'm using 16GiB ram +
> 32MiB swap, so I don't think this is memory issue.
> 
> Can you please advise if I need to fill a bug against general?
> 
> PS: Please copy me as I'm not subscribed.

Use a different web browser maybe? Blinq opens fine for me, under both Chromium
and Iceweasel. What version of Debian are you running?

Re: bootloader customization (was: System Dorked -- Help...)

[moxalt]

On Sun, 25 Oct 2015 13:52:06 -0400, Felix Miata  wrote:

> David Baron composed on 2015-10-25 14:53 (UTC+0200):
> 
> > I started with wheezy 64 bit install and grub2. Did not have any clue how
> > it worked but it did. When upgraded to Sid, added a kernel and wanted to
> > keep the older on around just-in-case, I had no idea how to do this with
> > Grub2 so I went back to Lilo. Lilo also makes it easy of have a systemd and
> > older-style init choice, the latter saved me recently.  
> 
> > Running afoul of having two 1 terra disks around could have been the
> > problem. I have no understanding of this business. I had no problem reading
> > and writing the partition I wanted to make root. Just could not do anything
> > in it, either chroot or on boot into the system which malfunctioned.  
> 
> > How do I make custom boot menus, kernel, init choices and such using the
> > Grub?  
> 
> There are numerous www howtos for customizing Grub2.
> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1296225 amounts to one such.
> 
> Customizing Grub Legacy is much simpler.
> http://www.gnu.org/software/grub/manual/legacy/grub.html#Installing-GRUB-natively
> explains setting it up simply.
> 
> http://fm.no-ip.com/Share/Linux/menu.lst can serve as a menu.lst template
> based on how things work here. Note in its lower section there are special
> stanzas used only for network installations. I don't download many iso files.
> It's wasteful of bandwidth to download so much that will only be used at most
> once. There are no hard dependencies on configs elsewhere located when using
> Grub Legacy, but do note that Debian's Grub Legacy still cannot read EXT4
> filesystems at least as of Jessie, so its use should be limited accordingly
> either to systems on which EXT4 isn't present, or to needing access only to
> EXT3 or EXT2 or older supported filesystems. Grub Legacy in Mageia, Fedora
> and openSUSE have no such limitation. I use openSUSE's, as it has a nice
> gfxboot configuration that's simple enough to use and customize, and
> extremely friendly at boot time.
> 
> Should you wish to try Grub Legacy, I'll be more than happy to assist.

I used GRUB Legacy (one of the 0.99~ releases) under Debian 7, and it worked
fine reading from ext4.

Re: Suitable USB WiFi Adapter

[moxalt]

On Wed, 28 Oct 2015 15:03:10 -0500, Tim McDonough  wrote:

> The older Dell laptop that I use for my mobile work has a broken 
> internal WiFi adapter. I'd like to get a recommendation on a USB "stick" 
> type adapter that plays well with Debian and Linux in general. Since I 
> have nothing now I'd just as soon get one that covers as many WiFi modes 
> as is practical... plan for the future.

https://www.thinkpenguin.com/gnu-linux/penguin-wireless-n-dual-band-usb-adapter-gnu-linux-tpe-nusbdb

https://www.thinkpenguin.com/gnu-linux/penguin-wireless-n-usb-adapter-gnu-linux-tpe-n150usb

https://www.thinkpenguin.com/gnu-linux/penguin-wireless-g-usb-adapter

Re: Debian Desktop Environment

[moxalt]

On Tue, 27 Oct 2015 14:01:09 +0100, Mateusz Kozłowski  wrote:

> Could You tell me which debian desktop environment is the most security and
> the best privacy and which You recommned for debian users? (KDE, XFCE, GNOME
> etc.)?

They're all reasonably secure. Of course, if you want to narrow your attack
surface, you shouldn't be running a desktop at all. Or even be using a computer
for that matter ;)

It's really just personal preference. I like Xfce. It's lightweight, fast,
doesn't eat RAM, isn't complicated, can look beautiful with a bit of theming,
and has sane settings. It's not very big on the disk either.

You can install it by installing xfce4 and xfce4-goodies.

If your computer can handle it and you want something a bit snazzier out of the
box, with all the bells and whistles, try KDE or something. I think it's
horribly bloated, but that's just me.

Another one I like is MATE, a fork of GNOME 2 before the GNOME project went
KDE-level insane.

Re: Suitable USB WiFi Adapter

[moxalt]

On Thu, 29 Oct 2015 00:22:34 -0500, rlhar...@oplink.net wrote:

> It seems to me that with respect to Wi-Fi, Debian has progressed beyond
> the state in which one needs to overly cautious regarding compatibility. 
> And I think that the same can be said of web cams.  Nowadays, most
> commonly used apparatus "just works".

Most commonly used apparatus might 'just work', but certainly not with free
software. If OP wants to buy a new USB wifi adapter anyway, he/she might as
well get one which respects their freedom.

Re: Kali?

[moxalt]

On Thu, 29 Oct 2015 13:01:45 +0200, David Baron  wrote:

> I have this as my login title. I have NO "Kali" packages installed, but I 
> notice they are on the repos. I somehow picked this up during my "system 
> dorked" adventure.
> 
> So this is just text, how might I change this to my liking?

I must admit I find this quite perplexing. You have Debian GNU/Linux installed,
yes? Yet in your motd it shows your OS as Kali Linux. How did this happen? Have
you somehow switched from Kali to Debian without re-installing?

Since when were there packages from Kali in Debian? Surely it's the other way
round?

Re: Suitable USB WiFi Adapter

[moxalt]

On Thu, 29 Oct 2015 11:34:47 -0400, Doug  wrote:

> (If anybody know of such, please let me know! I am not averse to paying
> for it, if it is reasonable.)

I was talking about software that is free as in freedom, not as in price. Libre
software, if you will.

https://www.fsf.org/about/what-is-free-software

Re: Suitable USB WiFi Adapter

[moxalt]

On Thu, 29 Oct 2015 12:53:10 -0400 (EDT), Jude DaShiell 
wrote:

> It may have, but the proprietary software is unnecessary if you use 
> archlinux to install it and get it up and running.

It doesn't matter what distribution of GNU/Linux you use- if there is no free
firmware available for the device, there is no free firmware available for the
device. wpa_supplicant is just a program used to authenticate with
WPA-encrypted networks over a wireless LAN interface. It still requires
underlying firmware for the operating system to be able to control the device.

The reason it worked out of the box in Arch is because the Arch kernel is
mainline Linux, which has proprietary blobs, unlike Debian's de-blobbed kernel
or Linux-libre.

Re: Bad interaction between multihead display amd desktops in debian squeeze

[moxalt]

On Sun, 1 Nov 2015 21:25:45 +0100, Mauro Condarelli  wrote:

> Hi,
> I am struggling to make work my new Debian Squezze installation on my
> workhorse. Problem is X setup and its interaction with desktops.
> 
> I have two VGAs:
> * intel embedded in my i7 CPU
> * external NVidia GTX770
> Each of them drives 2 monitors for a grand total of 4.
> 
> I managed to have partial victory in the sense:
> I can have dual monitor using *either* intel *or* nvidia
> or I can have all four, but then gnome crashes somehow ("Oh no! Something
> went wrong...") while X is ok. In the "working" cases xrandr dees only the
> two active monitors. I also installed Xfce which works happily with the same
> config where Gnome crashes, but shows only the nvidia monitors with mirroring
> and xrandr does not work at all.
> 
> I am now writing from Win7 (with all monitors correctly working!) and thus I
> have no access to actual files.
> 
> Can someone point me in the right direction, please?

Use at least Debian 8, for a start.

Re: Anybody know why aptitude is not installed by default in Sid?

[moxalt]

On Sat, 31 Oct 2015 18:11:48 +, Lisi Reisz  wrote:

> On Saturday 31 October 2015 16:37:41 Richard Owlett wrote:
> > Lisi Reisz wrote:  
> > > On Saturday 31 October 2015 16:18:15 Mario Castelán Castro wrote:  
> > >> El 31/10/15 a las 10:05, Richard Owlett escribió:  
> > >>> Martin Read wrote:  
> >  On 31/10/15 12:02, Chris Bannister wrote:  
> > > Logically, doesn't it make more sense to make it so that you
> > > install
> > > with the minimum number of packages necessary, and then
> > > download any
> > > extra packages you want *after* the install?  
> > 
> >  Only if you accept austere minimalism as axiomatically good.  
> > >>>
> > >>> *YES* 
> > >>> That 'yes' would not have been so bold except Debian defaults go too
> > >>> far in the other direction. E.G. I just installed Squeeze to one
> > >>> machine be cause I like some Gnome2 features that Gnome3 zapped and I'm
> > >>> not sure exist in MATE (am investigating).
> > >>>
> > >>> Applications->Internet lists 8 applications, none of which are of
> > >>> interest and does not list the only internet application I need
> > >>> (SeaMonkey).
> > >>> System->Administration lists 10 applications, only 1 of which I use
> > >>> more than once a month (Synaptic) and doesn't list one I use almost
> > >>> daily (Gparted).
> > >>>
> > >>> I'm working on learning debootstrap and multistrap to have things
> > >>> suitably minimal and powerful simultaneously.  
> > >>
> > >> I have also noticed that Debian installs a lot of "extra" programs by
> > >> default. For example, when I installed LXDE using the latest (Debian 7)
> > >> LXDE CD and, I obtained LibreOffice, Iceweasel and Deluge (among many
> > >> others), none of which are part of LXDE, and of those, I only wanted
> > >> Icweasel installed since the beginning.
> > >>
> > >> If you want to control more precisely which packages get installed, you
> > >> can also install a text-only system and then add the additional packages
> > >> with the package manager. It won't give the same results and isn't as
> > >> flexible as Debootstrap or Multistrap, of course.  
> > >
> > > It isn't Debian that installs all those packages.  It's the DE. All
> > > anyone has to do to avoid them is not install a DE.  You are given the
> > > option.
> > >
> > > Lisi  
> >
> > But extraneous cruft is not intrinsic to using a DE.   
> 
> Yes, it is.  That is why it is called an environment.  That is what makes it 
> an environment.  Without cruft it is effectively a window manager.

Not necessarily. A desktop environment can be a rather minimal collection of
programs- a window manager, desktop background thingy, file manager, and panel
qualifies as a desktop environment. At the very least, a desktop environment is
just a window manager packaged with some other useful stuff. Xfce comes pretty
close to just being a window manager (xfwm), a desktop (xfdesktop) a panel
(xfpanel), and a file manager (thunar). A desktop environment doesn't need to
be packed full of cruft.

If by 'desktop environment' you are referring to the bloated RAM-eating
monstrosities known only as GNOME and KDE (especially KDE) then I take the
cruft point.

Re: Anybody know why aptitude is not installed by default in Sid?

[moxalt]

On Sun, 1 Nov 2015 01:02:19 +1300, Chris Bannister 
wrote:

> Logically, doesn't it make more sense to make it so that you install
> with the minimum number of packages necessary, and then download any
> extra packages you want *after* the install?

Yes. In fact, even when I am installing desktop environments, I will use my
trusty netinstall CD anyway because I prefer doing the installation myself- I
feel insecure at the mercy of the installer, and prefer to just apt-get things
myself anyway. I'm a bit of a control freak that way.

I have a really shaky internet connection, and I would just hate it to die on
me halfway through an enormous (say, GNOME) installation and then have the
entire thing fail. Much better to deal with things afterwards. More control.

Re: Debian DeskTop

[moxalt]

On Tue, 17 Nov 2015 09:18:11 +1100, Tony  wrote:

> I have just installed Debian 8.2. How do I get the Desk Top to show on the
> screen? On boot-up, the green Debian desk Top shows for a few seconds and

The 'green Debian desktop' that you are describing is probably the GRUB
background. That is not the desktop- it is a splash screen which is part of the
boot procedure. You do not appear to have actually installed a desktop
environment.

> then the Terminal appears and I cant get to the Desk Top.
> Can you please let me know what to do?

What installation image did you use? I suspect you forgot to tell the installer
to install a desktop environment.

What exactly do you see when you boot? Can you see a 'Login:' prompt once the
terminal has opened?

Re: Adobe Flash

[moxalt]

On Wed, 18 Nov 2015 15:05:33 +, Lisi Reisz  wrote:

> On Wednesday 18 November 2015 14:24:17 Alex Vong wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > Next time please send your email to  for
> > user questions, thanks! (You can also CC me since I don't subscribe
> > the debian-user list.)
> >
> > To watch , first install youtube-dl:
> > $ apt-get install youtube-dl  
> 
> Or just install flashplugin-nonfree with Iceweasel, or watch with Google 
> Chrome.  I'm sure plenty of other things work, but I know those do.  I watch 
> that news-site all the time, several times a day most days, and browse over 
> the whole site; sometimes just to see if there has been a new newsflash on an 
> important story.  Think of the disk-space needed if I were to download 
> everything every time!

http://www.gnu.org/proprietary/proprietary-surveillance.html#SpywareInFlash

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2008/02/adobe-pushes-drm-flash

Fortunately YouTube no longer requires Flash. Unfortunately, it still mandates
the running of non-free JavaScript, and is firmly under the thumb of Google.

YouTube can be accessed and videos on it can be viewed with a free web browser
which supports HTML5, of which there are many. More and more websites now
support HTML5 (or similar) video-streaming mechanisms. This is a good thing.

For those websites which still require Flash, you should find some way of
downloading the video (preferably in an open format).

Re: Adobe Flash

[moxalt]

On Wed, 18 Nov 2015 17:55:47 +, Lisi Reisz  wrote:

> On Wednesday 18 November 2015 17:50:18 moxalt wrote:
> > On Wed, 18 Nov 2015 15:05:33 +, Lisi Reisz 
> > wrote:  
> > > On Wednesday 18 November 2015 14:24:17 Alex Vong wrote:  
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > Next time please send your email to  for
> > > > user questions, thanks! (You can also CC me since I don't subscribe
> > > > the debian-user list.)
> > > >
> > > > To watch <http://www.bbc.com/news/10462520>, first install youtube-dl:
> > > > $ apt-get install youtube-dl  
> > >
> > > Or just install flashplugin-nonfree with Iceweasel, or watch with Google
> > > Chrome.  I'm sure plenty of other things work, but I know those do.  I
> > > watch that news-site all the time, several times a day most days, and
> > > browse over the whole site; sometimes just to see if there has been a new
> > > newsflash on an important story.  Think of the disk-space needed if I
> > > were to download everything every time!  
> >
> > http://www.gnu.org/proprietary/proprietary-surveillance.html#SpywareInFlash
> >
> > https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2008/02/adobe-pushes-drm-flash
> >
> > Fortunately YouTube no longer requires Flash. Unfortunately, it still
> > mandates the running of non-free JavaScript, and is firmly under the thumb
> > of Google.
> >
> > YouTube can be accessed and videos on it can be viewed with a free web
> > browser which supports HTML5, of which there are many. More and more
> > websites now support HTML5 (or similar) video-streaming mechanisms. This is
> > a good thing.
> >
> > For those websites which still require Flash, you should find some way of
> > downloading the video (preferably in an open format).  
> 
> So for perfection, don't watch the news. 

> The OP is currently watching the 
> news on Doze.  Hardly more secure than flash

And OP should do neither.

> on Linux.

I'd just like to interject for a moment. What you're referring to as Linux, is
in fact, GNU/Linux, or as I've recently taken to calling it, GNU plus Linux.
Linux is not an operating system unto itself, but rather another free component
of a fully functioning GNU system made useful by the GNU corelibs, shell
utilities and vital system components comprising a full OS as defined by POSIX.

Many computer users run a modified version of the GNU system every day, without
realizing it. Through a peculiar turn of events, the version of GNU which is
widely used today is often called Linux, and many of its users are not aware
that it is basically the GNU system, developed by the GNU Project.

There really is a Linux, and these people are using it, but it is just a part
of the system they use. Linux is the kernel: the program in the system that
allocates the machine's resources to the other programs that you run. The
kernel is an essential part of an operating system, but useless by itself; it
can only function in the context of a complete operating system. Linux is
normally used in combination with the GNU operating system: the whole system is
basically GNU with Linux added, or GNU/Linux. All the so-called Linux
distributions are really distributions of GNU/Linux.

Re: Adobe Flash

[moxalt]

On Wed, 18 Nov 2015 19:34:38 +, Lisi Reisz  wrote:

> On Wednesday 18 November 2015 19:24:31 moxalt wrote:
> > > The OP is currently watching the
> > > news on Doze.  Hardly more secure than flash  
> >
> > And OP should do neither.  
> 
> That's a bit arrogant - saying that other people shouldn't watch the news on 
> their computers because you would choose not to do so.
> 
> Lisi

I don't think advocating that others should follow certain ethical principles
is at all arrogant. What you're accusing me of is telling others to reject
non-free software because I do so. This is not true. I think people in general
should not use proprietary software, and I comply by this ethical principle. In
what way is recommending that others should do the same arrogant?

For instance, I hold that people should not kill each other needlessly. I
comply by this principle too, and do not kill people. In what way is
recommending to others that they follow this principle arrogant?

Re: Adobe Flash

[moxalt]

On Fri, 20 Nov 2015 00:02:55 +, Lisi Reisz  wrote:

> On Thursday 19 November 2015 16:55:43 moxalt wrote:
> > On Wed, 18 Nov 2015 19:34:38 +, Lisi Reisz 
> > wrote:  
> > > On Wednesday 18 November 2015 19:24:31 moxalt wrote:  
> > > > > The OP is currently watching the
> > > > > news on Doze.  Hardly more secure than flash  
> > > >
> > > > And OP should do neither.  
> > >
> > > That's a bit arrogant - saying that other people shouldn't watch the news
> > > on their computers because you would choose not to do so.
> > >
> > > Lisi  
> >
> > I don't think advocating that others should follow certain ethical
> > principles is at all arrogant. What you're accusing me of is telling others
> > to reject non-free software because I do so. This is not true. I think
> > people in general should not use proprietary software, and I comply by this
> > ethical principle. In what way is recommending that others should do the
> > same arrogant?  
> 
> Telling others what they "should" do is arrogant.

I disagree. Condemning anyone for ever telling anyone to do anything as
'arrogant' is plain silly. If I am to be called 'arrogant' for advocating
certain principles, so be it.

What word would you have me use so that others do not feel uncomfortable? What
would you have me do? Should (there it is again!) I simply deliver my opinions
in terms of imperatives- do this and do that? That seems far more arrogant to
me.

I find it somewhat peculiar that you would find the word 'should' so
triggering. I tell people that they should do things all the time, and others
tell me that I should do things all the time. I am not in any way offended by
this. If I agree, I will express my agreement and do the thing that they think
I should do. If I disagree, I will explain why and refuse.

>  Especially on this forum
> on occasions where people are only using the Debian repositories.

I don't understand this.

> It is admirable that you are prepared to make sacrifices for your
> principles. Telling others that they "should" make sacrifices for your
> principles is arrogant.  Persuade them by all means.  But if you are so dead
> set against all use of non-free or not-quite-fully-free software, use one of
> these: http://www.gnu.org/distros/

I was a Trisquel user for a long time. I still recommend Trisquel to those new
to the world of free software. Personally I prefer Debian. As long as non-free
and contrib are not enabled, Debian is just as free as any of those
distributions. However, as
https://www.gnu.org/distros/optionally-free-not-enough.html points out,
distributions which merely present a choice between freedom and subjugation are
not good enough for people who are not committed free software users and who
are not prepared to defend their freedom when the choice is offered.

This is why the distributions listed at
http://www.gnu.org/distros/free-distros.html should be recommended to the
general public.

> Contrib and non-free Debian repositories exist.  We are entitled to use them 
> in peace and without being given moral lectures and being carpeted like 
> naughty schoolboys.

This is true.

> And I use Linux.  You use GNU/Linux.  Again, bully for you.  That is a matter 
> of semantics.

I use both Linux and GNU/Linux. Linux is my kernel; GNU/Linux is my operating
system.

Once upon a time, I called the whole thing Linux too.

Re: Adobe Flash

[moxalt]

On Thu, 19 Nov 2015 19:01:49 -0500, Ric Moore  wrote:

> On 11/19/2015 11:55 AM, moxalt wrote:
> > On Wed, 18 Nov 2015 19:34:38 +, Lisi Reisz 
> > wrote:  
> 
> >> That's a bit arrogant - saying that other people shouldn't watch the news
> >> on their computers because you would choose not to do so.
> >>
> >> Lisi  
> >
> > I don't think advocating that others should follow certain ethical
> > principles is at all arrogant.  
> 
> It's arrogant as soon as you use the word "should". "Shoulding" is one 
> of the 100+ "Elements of Criminal Thinking". Try "IMHO It would be 
> better if..." to offer your personal POV, which others are free to 
> accept or ignore. Your views will gain more attraction in that manner.

Very well. I shall reformulate my earlier posts. Here is the first instance of
my vicious and triggering usage of the word 'should':

For those websites which still require Flash, IMHO it would be better if you
found some way of downloading the video (preferably in an open format).

Here is the second:

IMHO it would be better if the OP did neither.

Happy now? Feeling less threatened?

..

You know what, I started out this post wanting to get back at you for what I
felt was an unfair backlash to my usage of what I thought to be an innocent and
widely-used word: 'should'. Now that I look at the edited offending sections,
they actually look far better and far more reasonable when I put it the way you
suggested. Thank you. I shall try and avoid using the word 'should' when
unnecessary in the future (except when I'm preaching to the choir over in the
Trisquel forum that is ;).

I am sorry.

Re: Adobe Flash

[moxalt]

On Fri, 20 Nov 2015 05:19:46 -0300, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI
 wrote:

> On Fri, 20 Nov 2015 09:43:49 +0300
> moxalt  wrote:
> 
> > Should (there it is again!) I simply deliver my opinions
> > in terms of imperatives- do this and do that?   
> 
> You could, without trying to impose your opinions on others, just tell tell
> them what you do, and let them decide whether to follow your example or not. 
> But telling them what they "should" do, unless it relates to behaviour that
> affexts you directly(*) is the first step on the road to intolerance,
> persecution, the Talibans and the Inquisition, etc.

Wow. The seemingly innocent word 'should' is in fact the first step to the
Inquisition. What an opinion. What a place! Who knew the Debian-users list was
a den populated by people who overreact to 'should', as if it's the Great
Satan or something.

I understand that everyone's rallying against the outsider here, but really
guys? 'Should'?

> * Of course there is the difference between "You should avoid punching me in
> the nose" and "You should use only FLOSS".

Not really. Both are actions I would engage in, and would like others to do the
same. I never thought the word 'should' was such a big issue.

Re: The word 'should'. (was: Adobe Flash)

[moxalt]

On Fri, 20 Nov 2015 05:28:25 -0300, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI
 wrote:

> On Fri, 20 Nov 2015 09:53:09 +0300
> moxalt  wrote:
> 
> > Very well. I shall reformulate my earlier posts. Here is the first instance
> > of my vicious and triggering usage of the word 'should':  
>  
> > For those websites which still require Flash, IMHO it would be better if you
> > found some way of downloading the video (preferably in an open format).  
>  
> > Here is the second:  
>  
> > IMHO it would be better if the OP did neither.  
>  
> > Happy now? Feeling less threatened?  
> 
> No, because you are still trying to impose your own values on others.

Wow. So it doesn't actually have anything to do with my language (thank you for
admitting that) but rather a view you disagree with. A moment ago you said it
would be OK if I just replaced all instances of 'should' with 'IMHO it would be
better if'. I did so, and you are still not satisfied. This has nothing to do
with me being less stubborn and softening my tone- it's just a view you
personally reject.

Reminder: *every opinion expressed* is an assertion of one's values of others
(regardless of whether they agree or not, or whether you feel triggered by my
language). Telling someone not to punch people is an assertion of the principle
that one should not punch people, just as telling people to use free software
is an assertion of the principle that software should be free.

If you disagree with my opinion, feel free to do so. We can have a nice
civilised debate about it (though there isn't really any such thing on the
internet- we can try anyway). If you are not prepared to openly disagree with
me, at least don't just use the cop-out tactic of attacking my word choice.

Even when I complied with this, you made it clear that it doesn't matter what
words I use anyway, because by having opinions and expressing them I am doing
something akin to the Inquisition.

http://doge-generator.com/?w=wow,much%20logic,lol,much%20logic,wow

> What next ? Telling us your own religion is better than ours ?

If I was religious, and this was a discussion concerning religion, I would be
proselytising 24/7. I don't do things half-way.

Re: Adobe Flash

[moxalt]

On Fri, 20 Nov 2015 05:19:46 -0300, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI
 wrote:

> On Fri, 20 Nov 2015 09:43:49 +0300
> moxalt  wrote:
> 
> > Should (there it is again!) I simply deliver my opinions
> > in terms of imperatives- do this and do that?   
> 
> You could, without trying to impose your opinions on others, just tell tell
> them what you do, and let them decide whether to follow your example or not. 
> But telling them what they "should" do, unless it relates to behaviour that
> affexts you directly(*) is the first step on the road to intolerance,
> persecution, the Talibans and the Inquisition, etc.
> 
> Cheers,
>  
> Ron.
> 
> * Of course there is the difference between "You should avoid punching me in
> the nose" and "You should use only FLOSS".

http://memeshappen.com/media/created/should-is-genocide--meme-35808.jpg

Re: Adobe Flash

[moxalt]

On Fri, 20 Nov 2015 22:28:39 -0600, John Hasler  wrote:

> moxalt writes:
> > Not really. Both are actions I would engage in, and would like others
> > to do the same. I never thought the word 'should' was such a big
> > issue.  
> 
> Right.  "Should" is just an opinion.  If you don't like it ignore it.
> Or express your own contrary opinion.

Indeed.

Re: Adobe Flash

[moxalt]

On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 12:53:44 +0100, "Thomas Schmitt"  wrote:

> > > OTOH we woldn't be here were
> > > it not for one very vociferous preacher, RMS [Richard Matthew Stallman]  
> 
> > And there was I thinking I was here because of Linus and Ian. ;-)  
> 
> Standing on the shoulders of Dennis M. Ritchie, Ken Thompson,
> S.R. Bourne, and a crowd of mathematicians and electrical engineers.

Standing on the shoulders of Al-Khwarizmi, Pascal, Jacquard, Babbage,
Lovelace, Boole, Godel, Zuse, and Turing, not to mention countless others in
the drama of the computer story.

Re: Adobe Flash

[moxalt]

On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 08:53:39 +, Lisi Reisz  wrote:

> On Saturday 21 November 2015 04:06:49 moxalt wrote:
> > I understand that everyone's rallying against the outsider here, but really
> > guys? 'Should'?  
> 
> Oh dear!  lets all weep.  "Outsider"?  What on earth are you talking about?  
> Why are you an outsider anymore than anyone else?
> 
> It isn't the word that is the problem per se.  It is your attitude that you 
> should (sic) be able to dictate to everybody else and your unpleasantness to 
> anyone who disagrees with you over this issue.  Who are you to dictate who 
> may or may not listen to what radio station over what medium?
> 
> > > * Of course there is the difference between "You should avoid punching me
> > > in the nose" and "You should use only FLOSS".  
> >
> > Not really. Both are actions I would engage in, and would like others to do
> > the same. I never thought the word 'should' was such a big issue.  
> 
> It isn't per se.  It is what it means that is the problem.
> 
> Lisi
> 

Let's put this all in context, shall we? Here's my original statement, the one
which gave rise to a shitstorm spanning over 36 posts (correct me if I'm wrong):

> And I believe OP should do neither.

Disproportionate much?

Re: The word 'should'. (was: Adobe Flash)

[moxalt]

On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 06:20:23 -0300, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI
 wrote:

> On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 07:44:26 +0300
> moxalt  wrote:
> 
> > Even when I complied with this, you made it clear that it doesn't matter
> > what words I use anyway, because by having opinions and expressing them I
> > am doing something akin to the Inquisition.  
> 
> Not at all; it is only when you try to force others to hold those same
> opinions that you start on the road to intolerance and persecution. 
> Cheers,

In that case, I am doing nothing wrong. I am not burning people at the stake
for using Adobe Flash, merely saying telling them they shouldn't. I am not
forcing anyone to do anything, unless expression of opinion is considered by
you a use of force.

Re: Adobe Flash

[moxalt]

On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 15:24:52 +0300, moxalt  wrote:

> On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 08:53:39 +, Lisi Reisz  wrote:
> 
> > On Saturday 21 November 2015 04:06:49 moxalt wrote:  
> > > I understand that everyone's rallying against the outsider here, but
> > > really guys? 'Should'?
> > 
> > Oh dear!  lets all weep.  "Outsider"?  What on earth are you talking
> > about? Why are you an outsider anymore than anyone else?
> > 
> > It isn't the word that is the problem per se.  It is your attitude that you 
> > should (sic) be able to dictate to everybody else and your unpleasantness
> > to anyone who disagrees with you over this issue.  Who are you to dictate
> > who may or may not listen to what radio station over what medium?
> >   
> > > > * Of course there is the difference between "You should avoid punching
> > > > me in the nose" and "You should use only FLOSS".
> > >
> > > Not really. Both are actions I would engage in, and would like others to
> > > do the same. I never thought the word 'should' was such a big issue.
> > 
> > It isn't per se.  It is what it means that is the problem.
> > 
> > Lisi
> >   
> 
> Let's put this all in context, shall we? Here's my original statement, the one
> which gave rise to a shitstorm spanning over 36 posts (correct me if I'm
> wrong):
> 
> > And I believe OP should do neither.  
> 
> Disproportionate much?

I even said 'I believe'!

Re: Adobe Flash

[moxalt]

On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 10:20:07 -0500, Ric Moore  wrote:

> On 11/21/2015 06:21 AM, Lisi Reisz wrote:
> > On Friday 20 November 2015 12:35:34 to...@tuxteam.de wrote:  
> >> OTOH we woldn't be here were
> >> it not for one very vociferous preacher, RMS  
> >
> > And there was I thinking I was here because of Linus and Ian. ;-)  
> 
> Me too. Where would be be without Linus? Ric

In Hurd-land ;)

Re: Adobe Flash

[moxalt]

On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 09:53:28 -0500, Ric Moore  wrote:

> On 11/20/2015 11:06 PM, moxalt wrote:
> > On Fri, 20 Nov 2015 05:19:46 -0300, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI  
> 
> > I understand that everyone's rallying against the outsider here, but really
> > guys? 'Should'?
> >  
> >> * Of course there is the difference between "You should avoid punching me
> >> in the nose" and "You should use only FLOSS".  
> >
> > Not really. Both are actions I would engage in, and would like others to do
> > the same. I never thought the word 'should' was such a big issue.  
> 
> if you bothered to google "shoulding" you would have hit this first:
> http://daphne.palomar.edu/jtagg/should.htm
> Hacking the brain is no different from hacking a computer. My take is 
> that the process become open-source so that it becomes available for 
> anyone to pick up and examine. It merely needs self-motivation. :) Ric

Thank you for that.

Re: Adobe Flash

[moxalt]

On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 10:10:49 -0500, Ric Moore  wrote:

> On 11/21/2015 08:54 AM, John Hasler wrote:
> > Renaud writes:  
> >> but following the precept wisely given by the Fathers of the American
> >> Constitution, never try to impose your religion on others !  
> >
> > It bars the state from using its power to forcibly impose a religion.
> > It has been explicitly interpreted as protecting the right to tell
> > others that they should join your religion.  In fact, it protects the
> > right to tell anyone that they should do just about anything.  The right
> > to tell others what you think they should do is just as important as
> > their right not to do it.  
> 
> Try phrasing that without the word "should".
> It's an exercise we use on inmates to go just ONE DAY without the word 
> "should" in their mouths. It's very hard to do!! Ha! Hack the brain.
> :) Ric

Prison or sanatorium?

Re: Adobe Flash

[moxalt]

On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 07:31:00 -0600, John Hasler  wrote:

> Lisi Reisz wrote:
> > The problem is well highlighted by these dictionary offerings.  "Should" 
> > expresses obligation and duty, not a recommendation or preference.  
> 
> Still, when I say "You should not try to stop others from saying things
> you find uncomfortable" I am expressing *my opinion* as to what you
> should do.

Exactly my point. Whether I wrap up my expression of opinion in a 'should' or
an 'IMHO it would be better if', the actual underlying sentiment expressed in
the sentence is the same. It is this: 'I have an
opinion/recommendation/principle. I believe you should act accordingly.'
Regardless of how you dress it up, the same 'assertion of opinion' is taking
place.

Re: The word 'should'.

[moxalt]

On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 14:55:29 +0100, Mauro Condarelli  wrote:

> Il 21/11/2015 14:40, John Hasler ha scritto:
> > Renaud writes:  
> >> No, because you are still trying to impose your own values on others.  
> > There is no attempt to impose anything.  "You should do that" does not
> > mean "You must do that or I will punish you".  Do you find "You should
> > recycle" offensive?  How about "You should not injure others?"  
> ... not to mention he is the only one, here, who *consistently insists* to
> have others to change *their* behavior.
> 
> The original comment boils down to a semantic: "IMHO it's wrong
> to..." (reread the original post, please), while the other side semantic
> content is: "You *must not* use the word 'should', otherwise..." (implying
> failure to comply means offender is ready to eat babies... or something
> worse).
> 
> Who's the "Taliban"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban

> Almost invariably whoever makes such a fuss about words is really after
> something else (as all lawyers know very well).
> 
> Regards
> Mauro
> 

Re: Adobe Flash

[moxalt]

On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 17:50:07 -0600, Mario Castelán Castro
 wrote:

> El 18/11/15 a las 17:39, Ric Moore escribió:
> > On 11/18/2015 02:24 PM, moxalt wrote:
> >  
> >> I'd just like to interject for a moment. What you're referring to as
> >> Linux, is
> >> in fact, GNU/Linux, or as I've recently taken to calling it, GNU plus
> >> Linux.  
> > Depends who's version of the definition of OS you use:
> >   Here's a quote from "The design of the unix operating system", Maurice
> > J. Bach, Prentice/Hall, 1986, page 4:
> >
> >  The operating system interacts directly with the hardware,
> > providing common services to programs and insulating them from hardware
> > idiosyncrasies. Viewing the system as a set of layers, the operating
> > system is commonly called the system kernel, or just the kernel,
> > emphasizing its isolation from user programs. Because programs are
> > independent of the underlying hardware, it is easy to move them between
> > UNIX systems running on different hardware if the programs do not make
> > assumptions about the underlying hardware."
> > http://linux.topology.org/lingl.html
> > "Personally, I am against re-defining the English language for political
> > and marketing purposes."
> >
> > There ya go. Ric  
> 
> There is a common false justification for calling the operating system 
> "Linux" instead of "GNU/Linux". Anybody who really thinks that Linux is 
> an operating system because operating system is synonymous with kernel 
> must start talking about "The kernel of {FreeBSD, Windows, OS X, 
> etcetera}" as the operating system as well for otherwise he'd be an 
> hypocrite in applying his own argument inconsistently instead of 
> acknowledging his own mistake in that in the modern meaning of 
> "operating system", Linux is NOT an operating system. The modern word 
> for that meaning of "operating system" is "kernel".
> 
> By the way, according to Debian, GNU/Linux is an OS and Linux is a 
> kernel. Look at the OS title ("Debian GNU/Linux") and package names.

The fact that the 'open source' crowd aren't willing to call Windows 'the
Windows NT kernel', FreeBSD 'the FreeBSD kernel' and Mac OS X 'the GNU
Mach kernel/FreeBSD kernel' demonstrates the utter ridiculousness of the whole
'operating systems and kernels are the same' position. It also demonstrates
just how ideologically motivated their reference to GNU/Linux as 'Linux' is-
they simply wish to downplay the FSF and the GNU project (without which Linux
would have been unusable as part of a free operating system, and without which
Linux wouldn't even be free (thanks to the GPL and RMS' persuasive influence))
and promote Linus Torvalds and his 'free software as a development model'
approach- open source.

Re: Adobe Flash

[moxalt]

On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 12:54:27 -0500, Ric Moore  wrote:

> On 11/21/2015 11:59 AM, moxalt wrote:
> > On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 10:20:07 -0500, Ric Moore  wrote:
> >  
> >> On 11/21/2015 06:21 AM, Lisi Reisz wrote:  
> >>> On Friday 20 November 2015 12:35:34 to...@tuxteam.de wrote:  
> >>>> OTOH we woldn't be here were
> >>>> it not for one very vociferous preacher, RMS  
> >>>
> >>> And there was I thinking I was here because of Linus and Ian. ;-)  
> >>
> >> Me too. Where would be be without Linus? Ric  
> >
> > In Hurd-land ;)  
> 
> I truly hope that Hurd becomes all that it can be. :) Ric

Alas, I fear it is too late... Hurd is basically where Linux was in 1991.

In a way it would probably have been better if Linux had never been developed.
We could have just used a deblobbed BSD kernel or something in the meantime,
while GNU would have given the Hurd its full attention.

It would have been *even better* if RMS had just gone with the initial plan to
use a simple monolithic kernel, rather than the technically ambitious kernel.
It would probably have been done before Linux even started- and Linus would
never have even needed to write a Minix clone for his PC...

Either of these situations would have prevented the hijacking of free software
by 'open source'. Actually, maybe even that was a good thing... it certainly
popularised and spread our wonderful GNU system. Now all that remains is to
bring the ethics of the matter back on the table and spread freedom
everywhere... :)

Re: The word 'should'.

[moxalt]

On Sun, 22 Nov 2015 00:47:08 +0100, Mauro Condarelli  wrote:

> Il 21/11/2015 23:45, Lisi Reisz ha scritto:
> > On Saturday 21 November 2015 17:36:46 Mauro Condarelli wrote:  
> >> Unfortunately English is not my mother language, so my command of the
> >> language is lacking (so say the least), please bear with me.  
> > Which might limit your ability to comment on the finer nuances of the
> > meaning of the language.
> >
> > Please don't take that as a criticism - my knowledge of Italian is only just
> > the right side of non-existent - but you aren't in a good position to
> > comment.  
> That, may be the case, but I feel like I can distinguish between who is
> really trying to force someone else to behave in a well defined way and who
> isn't. Here we are not discussing "nuances", but "annoyance". BTW this is,
> again, a lawyer trick: divert the attention from the main subject to the
> irrelevant to score a point.
> 
> Anyway (back on subject):
> Since everybody here is, more or less, in the computer trade: why don't we
> stick to RFC2119? (http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2119.txt) It seems pretty
> explicit on what the meaning of "should" should be. (double "should" very
> intentional)

lol

Re: Adobe Flash

[moxalt]

On Sun, 22 Nov 2015 10:05:44 -0500, Ric Moore  wrote:

> On 11/21/2015 06:50 PM, Mario Castelán Castro wrote:
> > El 18/11/15 a las 17:39, Ric Moore escribió:  
> >> On 11/18/2015 02:24 PM, moxalt wrote:
> >>  
> >>> I'd just like to interject for a moment. What you're referring to as
> >>> Linux, is
> >>> in fact, GNU/Linux, or as I've recently taken to calling it, GNU plus
> >>> Linux.  
> >> Depends who's version of the definition of OS you use:
> >>   Here's a quote from "The design of the unix operating system", Maurice
> >> J. Bach, Prentice/Hall, 1986, page 4:
> >>
> >>  The operating system interacts directly with the hardware,
> >> providing common services to programs and insulating them from hardware
> >> idiosyncrasies. Viewing the system as a set of layers, the operating
> >> system is commonly called the system kernel, or just the kernel,
> >> emphasizing its isolation from user programs. Because programs are
> >> independent of the underlying hardware, it is easy to move them between
> >> UNIX systems running on different hardware if the programs do not make
> >> assumptions about the underlying hardware."
> >> http://linux.topology.org/lingl.html
> >> "Personally, I am against re-defining the English language for political
> >> and marketing purposes."
> >>
> >> There ya go. Ric  
> >
> > There is a common false justification for calling the operating system
> > "Linux" instead of "GNU/Linux". Anybody who really thinks that Linux is
> > an operating system because operating system is synonymous with kernel
> > must start talking about "The kernel of {FreeBSD, Windows, OS X,
> > etcetera}" as the operating system as well for otherwise he'd be an
> > hypocrite in applying his own argument inconsistently instead of
> > acknowledging his own mistake in that in the modern meaning of
> > "operating system", Linux is NOT an operating system. The modern word
> > for that meaning of "operating system" is "kernel".  
> 
> According to you. Not according to "The design of the unix operating 
> system", Maurice >> J. Bach, Prentice/Hall, 1986, page 4:
> 
> Now that I have cited a definition of "OS", please cite your reference.
> Keep in mind that if your definition causes a student to fail a computer 
> literacy exam, then you have caused harm. :/ Ric

You gave a very unconventional definition of operating system, defining it to
mean the same thing as kernel. A kernel is still useless on its own. One cannot
'install' a kernel as such, whereas an operating system is a complete system
within which programs can be developed and run. This is the commonly used and
accepted usage of the phrase 'operating system', one which you too use (except,
curiously enough, when it comes to GNU/Linux. Hmm...). The burden of proof is
on you- citing one book which holds a rather strange view of operating systems
and kernels (a definition which is used nearly nowhere in the modern world,
except by you it would seem), as opposed to literally the way *everyone else*
uses the world 'operating system'.

Why don't you display some intellectual honesty and explain this discrepancy-
you call GNU/Linux 'Linux', after its kernel (which you maintain is the entire
operating system). Why do you not call Windows 'the Windows NT kernel' or
FreeBSD 'the FreeBSD kernel' or OS X 'XNU with bits of GNU Mach and BSD'?

As for my source I give you- the internet!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kernel_(operating_system)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operating_system

There is a marked difference. The kernel is clearly defined to be a fundamental
component of the operating system, not the operating system itself. Which
source is the more trustworthy- two people with a niche view writing in 1986
(and not even then was that the commonly accepted definition) or the tens of
thousands of Wikipedia contributors, reflecting the commonly used modern-day
definitions of the terms?

Your definitions are just as ideologically motivated as all the rest.

Re: The word 'should'

[moxalt]

On Sun, 22 Nov 2015 16:53:35 +, Lisi Reisz  wrote:

> And you may not mind being called immoral.  I do.  Sticks and stones etc.  I 
> never did buy that.

This is true. I'm an extremely sensitive person in real life. My furious
responses to provocation have probably made that clear, as well as my desperate
need to have the last word. These are all shortcomings of mine.

Even little things. When you said 'bully to you' twice after my one of my
rants, I nearly lost it. I felt utterly trivial and lost. I literally felt
crushed. I don't know why.

I never call people immoral. I call their actions unethical, at most. Human
nature is neither here nor there. There is no intrinsic evil. Actions can be
criticised for their negative consequences- even so, I prefer to call such
things unethical- it is a softer way of putting things, and 'morality' has
'religious' (?) connotations I would rather avoid.

Also 'ethical' sounds better than 'moral'. It has a more... analytical air to
it, rather than a gut decrying-type thing.

I think Mario went a bit too far there, in comparing open-sourcers to
'misbehaving children'. Regardless of our disagreements, we shouldn't resort to
blatant condescension.

I'm sorry. To everyone really. I should (lol- there it is again) have stepped
aside earlier. I'm sorry.

Re: The word 'should'.

[moxalt]

On Mon, 23 Nov 2015 12:06:02 +1300, Chris Bannister
 wrote:

> On Sun, Nov 22, 2015 at 11:54:07AM +, Ben Stones wrote:
> > Folks,
> > 
> > There are a lot of arguments going around in this e-mail chain and now
> > people are just hurting other people's feelings. Arguments are pointless if
> > no one agrees with each other ...  
> 
> Au contraire, arguments are pointless if everyone *agrees* with each
> other, unless you're actually paying someone for it:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnTmBjk-M0c

+1

Re: pointless linguistic one-upmanship (was Re: "operating system")

[moxalt]

On Tue, 24 Nov 2015 10:25:58 + (UTC), Curt  wrote:

>> [makes fun of opposing viewpoint rather than refuting it or leaving it alone]

> [is joined by rest of thread]

Yes! Down with he who thinks differently! Hurray! These high-falutin'
smart-talkin' weirdos with their funny words and strange beliefs! 'Ethics'?
'Making the world a better place'? Ha!

Let's just drown him out with the sound of jeering! /s

Re: debian 8.2 live "standard" install - how to set up wifi?

[moxalt]

On Thu, 26 Nov 2015 12:19:22 +, Francis Gerund  wrote:

> 1)
> Per lspci, the network adapter is:
> 02:00.0 Network controller: Qualcomm Atheros AR9285 Wireless Network
> Adapter (PCI-Express) (rev 01).
> 
> It is somewhat old, but not uncommon.  I have
> run many distributions using it (including Debian), and never had to
> install proprietary firmware.
> It seems to use open source driver(s).

This is true. It uses the free ath9k firmware.

> 2)
> There is no desktop environment installed.  The install did not show an
> option to do so (I used the "text" install; not the "graphical" install).
> It also did not offer to run tasksel, etc. I was surprised, I thought even
> the netinst.iso did that.

This is also surprising. Even the netinst ISO displays a tasksel menu.

> On Thu, Nov 26, 2015 at 9:30 AM, Brian  wrote:
> 
> > On Thu 26 Nov 2015 at 05:06:49 +, Francis Gerund wrote:
> >
> > > I just installed debian 8.2 stable, using the live "standard" 64-bit iso.
> > > The install was done using wifi, with no problem.
> > >
> > > Rebooting, I get a CLI interface (okay, for now), but it did not install
> > > networking (NOT ok)!

!!?

> > > ifconfig shows only an "lo" entry.

This is very strange.

> > > So, how do I install wifi?
> > >
> > > I could uninstall, then try re-installing from a netinst iso, but I
> > > suspect I would end up with the same problem.

I don't think you would. I use an ASUS N43SL with an AR9285 wireless chipset,
and the wireless networking works fine. I also always install using the network
install ISO, and networking is set up correctly each time. I would try this if
I were you- I have practically no experience installing from the 'live-*' CDs,
but the netinst might work.

When installing (you don't even need to select any tasks; a minimal
installation (even without the 'console environment' selection) should
correctly set up networking via all compatible interfaces and furnish you with
wpa_supplicant as well) try selecting the wireless option in the network setup
menu just to make sure.

Re: debian 8.2 live "standard" install - how to set up wifi?

[moxalt]

On Thu, 26 Nov 2015 09:23:27 + (UTC), Liam O'Toole
 wrote:

> On 2015-11-26, Francis Gerund  wrote:
> > --001a11c3b1dadc040205256a8a50
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> >
> > Hello!
> >
> > I just installed debian 8.2 stable, using the live "standard" 64-bit iso.
> > The install was done using wifi, with no problem.
> >
> > Rebooting, I get a CLI interface (okay, for now), but it did not install
> > networking (NOT ok)!
> >
> > ifconfig shows only an "lo" entry.
> >
> > So, how do I install wifi?
> >
> > I could uninstall, then try re-installing from a netinst iso, but I suspect
> > I would end up with the same problem.
> >
> > Or, I could uninstall, then try re-installing from a full desktop iso
> > (xfce, mate, etc), but then I would end up with lots of pre-installed
> > bloat, just to get networking going upon install.  Not cool.
> >
> > And I do need wifi, not ethernet.
> >
> > What to do?
> 
> What wireless hardware do you have? It may require proprietary firmware.
> If that is the case, you will need a 'non-free' installation iso. 

This is not the case. The Qualcomm Atheros 9285 works fine with the free ath9k
firmware.

Re: Xorg replaces TTY1

[moxalt]

On Wed, 25 Nov 2015 08:22:20 +, Anthony Campbell  wrote:

> On 23 Nov 2015, John L. Ries wrote:
> > Actually, if someone is starting X via startx instead of a display manager,
> > it normally means either that the user is trying to test his X
> > configuration, or that X is only intended to run intermittently, with TTY
> > mode being the norm.  So having X replace the terminal in that circumstance
> > does not at all strike me as a happy thing,
> 
> I don't agree with this. I don't use a desktop manager but even if I
> did, I'd prefer to start X via startx. 

The whole point of an X display manager is that you don't need to start X
manually- you just select your session and log in. How do you envision using a
display manager and still starting X manually?

Until recently, I did not use a display manager. I used startx and Xfce. I
recently switched to MATE, and was basically told by the Debian wiki that I had
to use a display manager (so I installed LightDM too). (this is addressed to
the list now) Is this actually true? Is it possible for MATE to be configured
to work properly with permissions, PolicyKit, etc. without a DM, like Xfce is?

My MATE has all sorts of dodgy issues even with a DM when it comes to
permissions and various settings menus.

> This gives me more control. If
> something goes wrong with X you are screwed if you don't have an easily
> accessible TTY to diagnose the problem. I'm sure I'm not alone in
> this.

You're not alone in this. But technically an easily accessible TTY is still
available even with the new setup- it's just in a different VT than it used to
be. I don't really see the problem with this, since the other Alt+Fs
still work, and the other VTs are still accessible (although I can understand
the 'muscle memory' complaints of some').

Re: Slow Display of Graphics in Chrome

[moxalt]

On Fri, 27 Nov 2015 19:32:25 +, Alan Chandler 
wrote:

> Just recently, I notice a sudden slowing down of the display of areas of 
> the screen in Chrome when it fully maximised ( but still with toolbar 
> etc on display)

If you want a Chrome-like browser, what's wrong with Chromium? Is it lacking in
some way which necessitates the use of Chrome?

> I am running a dual monitor gnome 3 setup with intel display driver.
> 
> Quite frequently, but not predictably so (say once every few minutes) 
> Chrome, when displaying a web page whilst fully maximized gets very slow 
> and displays blocks of the screen but then hangs for a few seconds 
> before continuing with some more and hanging again.
> 
> You can stop it doing this by dragging the toolbar down from the fully 
> maximized position.  I don't think I have seen it when not fully maximized.
> 
> Anyone else experiencing the same?

Although I don't use Chrome or Chromium anymore, I experience this with
*Iceweasel*, of all web browsers. In my experience Chromium has always been a
lot more responsive and snappier- so I experience and associate exactly
this problem with the Firefox-based browsers; Abrowser, Iceweasel, IceCat, etc.

Strange.

Does anyone else experience these strange hangs with the Firefoxes?

For me they are almost identical to the problem Alan has with Chrome.

Re: debian 8.2 live "standard" install - how to set up wifi?

[moxalt]

On Fri, 27 Nov 2015 19:58:46 +, Brian  wrote:

> On Fri 27 Nov 2015 at 21:16:40 +0300, moxalt wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, 26 Nov 2015 12:19:22 +, Francis Gerund 
> > wrote:
> > 
> > > > > So, how do I install wifi?
> > > > >
> > > > > I could uninstall, then try re-installing from a netinst iso, but I
> > > > > suspect I would end up with the same problem.
> > 
> > I don't think you would. I use an ASUS N43SL with an AR9285 wireless
> > chipset, and the wireless networking works fine. I also always install
> > using the network install ISO, and networking is set up correctly each
> > time. I would try this if I were you- I have practically no experience
> > installing from the 'live-*' CDs, but the netinst might work.
> 
> Installing with netinst is good advice. Nobody as yet has come along to
> advice us on how to go about it with a live-* CD.
> 
> > When installing (you don't even need to select any tasks; a minimal
> > installation (even without the 'console environment' selection) should
> > correctly set up networking via all compatible interfaces and furnish you
> > with wpa_supplicant as well) try selecting the wireless option in the
> > network setup menu just to make sure.
> 
> This bothers me. You install without any tasks (that's ok) and
> networking is there when the new systam boots? Are you installing over a
> wireless link? Just to emphasise - no wired connection is present.

Yes, networking is just there.

I boot with a netinstall USB, select my wireless interface for the
installation, and networking just works after I've rebooted. Both eth0, wlan0,
and lo appear in my ifconfig list. The firmware is correctly installed and
everything works. All that remains is to put wlan0 up, connect to my router
with wpa_supplicant, and get an IP with dhclient. After that, I'm good to go.

Re: debian 8.2 live "standard" install - how to set up wifi?

[moxalt]

On Sat, 28 Nov 2015 12:36:35 +, Brian  wrote:

> On Sat 28 Nov 2015 at 10:52:46 +0300, moxalt wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, 27 Nov 2015 19:58:46 +, Brian  wrote:
> > 
> > > This bothers me. You install without any tasks (that's ok) and
> > > networking is there when the new systam boots? Are you installing over a
> > > wireless link? Just to emphasise - no wired connection is present.
> > 
> > Yes, networking is just there.
> 
> This still bothers me. :)
> 
> If networking is just there why, as you say later, do you have to bring
> wlan0 up? Also, how do you manage to have eth0 in the output of
> 'ifconfig' when the wireless interface has been chosen for installing?
> It cannot be in /etc/network/interfaces.

Let me clarify what I meant by networking just being there. I did not say that
a connection would be up and running straight away- just that all relevant
network interfaces would be available for me to connect over. It is not the
case that I am able to use internet straight away after booting- I have to
actually connect to things with tools like wpa_supplicant, iwconfig, etc.

By the way, it seems I've been putting wlan0 up needlessly this whole time. I
taught myself how to do command-line networking off some Ubuntu tutorial that
said I should do it (probably just to cover all cases) and have been doing
ifconfig  up this whole time for no reason. After reading the
ifconfig man page, it seems the kernel uses ifconfig to put all interfaces up
at boot anyway, after which they are all up (as indicated by ifconfig run with
no arguments).

What is strange, though, is that when I boot using the 'text'
LINUX_CMDLINE_DEFAULT GRUB kernel parameter, and then type ifconfig wlan0 up in
the tty, a dmesg message appears declaring 'Link not ready' or something to
that effect- and then it goes on working just fine. Does anyone else see this
happening?

After I investigated, your second point sent shivers of spooky down my spleen.
The contents of /etc/network/interfaces are as follows:

---
# This file describes the network interfaces available on your system
# and how to activate them. For more information, see interfaces(5).

source /etc/network/interfaces.d/*

# The loopback network interface
auto lo
iface lo inet loopback
---

Neither eth nor wlan are there!? You were right when you said they couldn't be
in /etc/network/interfaces. However, the mystery continues- ifconfig reports
the following:

---
eth0  Link encap:Ethernet  HWaddr f4:6d:04:89:e3:01  
  UP BROADCAST MULTICAST  MTU:1500  Metric:1
  RX packets:0 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0
  TX packets:0 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0
  collisions:0 txqueuelen:1000 
  RX bytes:0 (0.0 B)  TX bytes:0 (0.0 B)

loLink encap:Local Loopback  
  inet addr:127.0.0.1  Mask:255.0.0.0
  inet6 addr: ::1/128 Scope:Host
  UP LOOPBACK RUNNING  MTU:65536  Metric:1
  RX packets:0 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0
  TX packets:0 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0
  collisions:0 txqueuelen:0 
  RX bytes:0 (0.0 B)  TX bytes:0 (0.0 B)

wlan0 Link encap:Ethernet  HWaddr e0:b9:a5:22:b9:43  
  inet addr:192.168.1.109  Bcast:192.168.1.255  Mask:255.255.255.0
  inet6 addr: fe80::e2b9:a5ff:fe22:b943/64 Scope:Link
  UP BROADCAST RUNNING MULTICAST  MTU:1500  Metric:1
  RX packets:6373 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0
  TX packets:2862 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0
  collisions:0 txqueuelen:1000 
  RX bytes:4755201 (4.5 MiB)  TX bytes:400106 (390.7 KiB)
--

lo, wlan0, and eth0 are all there! I am but a humble luser, and have no idea
what is going on.

> > I boot with a netinstall USB, select my wireless interface for the
> > installation, and networking just works after I've rebooted. Both eth0,
> > wlan0, and lo appear in my ifconfig list. The firmware is correctly
> > installed and everything works. All that remains is to put wlan0 up,
> > connect to my router with wpa_supplicant, and get an IP with dhclient.
> > After that, I'm good to go.
> 
> I'd better say why I am bothered.
> 
> D-I sets up networking with netcfg. The file
> 
>   /usr/lib/finish-install.d/55netcfg-copy-config
> 
> in the package has
> 
>   # Check for preseeding. If the value of the question is empty then set
>   # default options. Document automatic selection changes in the template.
>   i

Re: debian 8.2 live "standard" install - how to set up wifi?

[moxalt]

On Sat, 28 Nov 2015 20:28:07 +, Brian  wrote:

> On Sat 28 Nov 2015 at 22:22:30 +0300, moxalt wrote:
> 
> > On Sat, 28 Nov 2015 12:36:35 +, Brian  wrote:
> > 
> > > On Sat 28 Nov 2015 at 10:52:46 +0300, moxalt wrote:
> > > 
> > > > On Fri, 27 Nov 2015 19:58:46 +, Brian  wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > This bothers me. You install without any tasks (that's ok) and
> > > > > networking is there when the new systam boots? Are you installing
> > > > > over a wireless link? Just to emphasise - no wired connection is
> > > > > present.
> > > > 
> > > > Yes, networking is just there.
> > > 
> > > This still bothers me. :)
> > > 
> > > If networking is just there why, as you say later, do you have to bring
> > > wlan0 up? Also, how do you manage to have eth0 in the output of
> > > 'ifconfig' when the wireless interface has been chosen for installing?
> > > It cannot be in /etc/network/interfaces.
> > 
> > Let me clarify what I meant by networking just being there. I did not say
> > that a connection would be up and running straight away- just that all
> > relevant network interfaces would be available for me to connect over. It
> > is not the case that I am able to use internet straight away after booting-
> > I have to actually connect to things with tools like wpa_supplicant,
> > iwconfig, etc.
> 
> You have clarified the situation immensely. In fact, you have confirmed
> that netcfg behaves as it is presently designed to, Without any selected
> DE task and installing over a Wifi connection there is no connectivity
> after finishing the install. You have to configure, as you say.  some
> software.
> 
> When I first met this I was quite astounded; why no connectivity even
> though it present during installation?
> 
> The thinking would appear to be that someone who does not install
> network manager or install over a wired connection wants to set up
> networking afterwards. This is what you actually did, without being
> aware of netcfg's intentions. You used your initiative because you had
> to if you wanted to connect to other machines.
>  
> > By the way, it seems I've been putting wlan0 up needlessly this whole time.
> > I taught myself how to do command-line networking off some Ubuntu tutorial
> > that said I should do it (probably just to cover all cases) and have been
> > doing ifconfig  up this whole time for no reason. After reading
> > the ifconfig man page, it seems the kernel uses ifconfig to put all
> > interfaces up at boot anyway, after which they are all up (as indicated by
> > ifconfig run with no arguments).
> 
> How did you establish the connectivity that d-i did not provide?

When did I say that debian-installer provided no connectivity? I successfully
installed over WLAN using it.

> It
> could only be through a wired connection or wpasupplicant using ifupdown
> or NM (or wicd, I suppose). You are obviously connected now, so you must
> have done something to rectify being unable to access the internet.

wpa_supplicant, ifconfig, and dhclient.

> > What is strange, though, is that when I boot using the 'text'
> > LINUX_CMDLINE_DEFAULT GRUB kernel parameter, and then type ifconfig wlan0
> > up in the tty, a dmesg message appears declaring 'Link not ready' or
> > something to that effect- and then it goes on working just fine. Does
> > anyone else see this happening?
> > 
> > After I investigated, your second point sent shivers of spooky down my
> > spleen. The contents of /etc/network/interfaces are as follows:
> > 
> > ---
> > # This file describes the network interfaces available on your system
> > # and how to activate them. For more information, see interfaces(5).
> > 
> > source /etc/network/interfaces.d/*
> > 
> > # The loopback network interface
> > auto lo
> > iface lo inet loopback
> > ---
> > 
> > Neither eth nor wlan are there!? You were right when you said they couldn't
> > be in /etc/network/interfaces. However, the mystery continues- ifconfig
> > reports the following:
> > 
> > ---
> > eth0  Link encap:Ethernet  HWaddr f4:6d:04:89:e3:01  
> >   UP BROADCAST MULTICAST  MTU:1500  Metric:1
> >   RX packets:0 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0
> > 

Re: package name of device driver

[moxalt]

On Tue, 22 Dec 2015 14:08:09 +0900, Katsutoshi Itoh
 wrote:

> Hi all.

Hello.

> I'd like to send bug report by using reportbug.
> But I couldn't judge which package name I choice.
>
> The other day, I upgrade and dist-upgrade for my sid.
> Since then, this error occured in booting.
> 
> Could you teach me which package i choose?
> 
> [3.182434] [drm:intel_pipe_config_compare [i915]] *ERROR* mismatch
> in has_drrs (expected 1, found 0)
> [3.182437] [ cut here ]
> [3.182479] WARNING: CPU: 1 PID: 112 at
> /build/linux-s8yg92/linux-4.3.3/drivers/gpu/drm/i915/intel_display.c:12700

This is the crucial part of the log. There has been an error in the
Direct Rendering Manager (drm) in the i915 driver, under the gpu/
collection. This is (to the extent of my understanding) a driver
included with the kernel. The error should thus be reported as one
pertaining to linux-image-4.3.0-1-amd64.

[snip]

> Regards.

You are welcome. Correct me if I'm wrong.