Re: oh no something is definitely wrong adieu debian.
Le 30.08.2013 10:23, Joe a écrit : On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 20:09:44 +0200 Ralf Mardorf wrote: On Thu, 2013-08-29 at 18:58 +0100, Joe wrote: > Some of the English also like beer, and while German lagers are well > respected, so are Belgian and Danish ones, and some of us prefer > unpasteurised bitters. Some even prefer fermented apple juice... Yes, some Danish beer and even some English/Irish beers are passable. Belgian is known for good, but exotic beer flavours. I can't say much pro or con Belgian beer, I don't know their beer good enough. There's a lot of drinkable Lager on our planet, I would drink a Fosters when thirsty and nothing else should be available. The English and Irish folks perhaps should learn to use refrigerators, I guess no beer from any country does taste good when it's not could. Would you chill red wine? Unpasteurised bitter is drunk for its taste, much of which is lost when chilled. Agreed, lager must be very cold, like white wine. -- Joe Technically, it depends on the red wine. I am not good with wines, but in France I know people which drink *some* red wines "cold" ( around 12° IIRC ). Same for some white wines, some are better to ambient temper. I could ask my father about that, he knows wine better than me, but I think it depends on if the wine is "sec" or another variant. I like to compare beers (that I prefer, although I do not say no to some wine) with wines: there are too many sorts to have rules of thumb. Except that the foster is for when there is nothing else, of course, but you know what? French guys are able to make worse... (I will not name them except if asked for, because I have big problems to name those stuff beers) I think that most countries are able to brew some drinkable beers, anyway. In France I like the jeanlain, even if I know that we are not as good as Belgians for beers (I have no real knowledge about Germany's beers. As I never say that I know beer, only that I know them better than average French people ;) ). -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/00359a1cea1e133933b74edbe060f...@neutralite.org
Re: difference Debian, solaris, freebsd
Le 29.08.2013 19:09, Ralf Mardorf a écrit : On Thu, 2013-08-29 at 19:00 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: PS: I wouldn't install Debian's FreeBSD, test the "real" FreeBSD first. PPS: The reason for this is, that there's a FreeBSD community and I guess there is not a huge Debian GNU/kFreeBSD community, but I might be mistaken. http://www.debian.org/ports/kfreebsd-gnu/ Is not that list including that community? After all, KFreeBSD is now an official part of Debian, I think ;) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/8783bba79f5b5fc7d8f5ca6169e61...@neutralite.org
Re: TEST
Le 30.08.2013 09:15, Anthony Campbell a écrit : On 29 Aug 2013, staticsafe wrote: On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 01:04:35PM +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > My MUA replied unwanted several times to "Re: apt-get upgrade problem > with libenchant1c2a". I got several times an error, but seemingly it was > sent several times to the list, but didn't came through. > > Something is fishy, I was able to reply to several other threads to > several people and lists. > Received. Perhaps your e-mail provider is having issues? -- A reply to a thread I sent a couple of days ago didn't arrive. Let's see if this one does. -- Anthony Campbell - a...@acampbell.org.uk http://www.acupuncturecourse.org.uk http://www.smashwords.com/profile.view/acampbell https://itunes.apple.com/ca/artist/anthony-campbell/id73235412 That thread seems fine: your message is currently the last one of the suit of 3 messages. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/526c07354588f7b729f7bb478bacc...@neutralite.org
Re: A notification tray?
Le 29.08.2013 17:20, Sharon Kimble a écrit : Cinnamon and Gnome 3 both have a tray that holds all notification messages until their read and deleted. These messages are ones like saying that your backup has just started, or you’ve got 3 new emails, nice simple easily forgotten ones. But, what is this 'tray'? Can it be used in fluxbox, or other lighter DE's? Is there anything comparable to the tray please, because I'd really like it in my fluxbox setup. It was very useful when I was using cinnamon, but apt-get removed cinnamon yesterday, and when I went to re-download it today there was a big bug against it, so its not working at the moment. But can anybody help re the tray? Could it be accomplished in a bash script? Does someone with the skill to code it have the same itch and would find a use for it? Hopefully, thanks Sharon. I am confused by your message. Are you speaking about the tray area, which is where the icons rely, like for opera, transmission-gtk, skype, the hour, or whatever? Or are you speaking about bubbles that some softwares are able to spawn on the desktop? If you are speaking about the bubbles, notifications, then you should take a look at package "notification-daemon" and which packages depends on it, it may help you in your quest :) . -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/48eb9a827a85450ee25f76416a50b...@neutralite.org
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
Le 30.08.2013 12:59, Phi Debian a écrit : Amazingly I needed to do a check on ubuntu raring, so I quickly setup a raring guest. And as I am at it, dit the panel->properties->[background] test, and it got killed with out any 'oh no' message, so even harder to understand what happen :) I may be back to debian for raring era :) So this is more a general GUI linux world problem, all distro's are victimised by questionable bus architecture, then wanted to get as nice as MAC, and got as worth as windooze :) (just kidin, don't flame). And about opening a ticket, well why opening at debian since it is general... I am not involved enough to know the process of reporting this Cheers, Phi Debian have a tool named reportbug, which should be installed by default: http://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=reportbug&searchon=names§ion=all Maybe you could use it. I did once, for a package on which I discovered a dependency bug (one of the real dependencies was not in aptitude, so the program crashed on my minimal install of Debian.). It is a command-line tool, but it uses a sequence of questions quite clear, if you want my opinion. It seem there is another one, "reportbug-ng", but never tried it. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/92026f55ad5f85ac1573ba584...@neutralite.org
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
Le 30.08.2013 17:55, Sharon Kimble a écrit : On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 17:35:39 +0200 berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote: Le 30.08.2013 05:04, Phi Debian a écrit : > Hi Gary, > > Thanx you for getting back to the original post :) while I admit I > > did learn a bit of history about distro, display manager, > > etc... :) > > [snip] And what about cloning the git of vncserver, install development dependencies, and configure/make/make install? That would mean you would have fixes from vnc server's team, so that bug would be absent like in Ubuntu, and you could stay on Debian. There should be no big conflicts, since "usually" make install will install in /usr/local/. The only thing I can think about is that you will need to update it by hand, with git pull/make/make install. (and people here could know how to suppress that problem, but not me :) ) You could use 'myrepos' to control the git sessions, when to update your local repo its just a simple 'mr update' and let it roll. Makes life a lot simpler :) Sharon. I known that someone would know way to enhance that :D I wonder, maybe that mr update can be integrated in deb system, so that the git repo would be check as if it was just a line in /etc/apt/sources.list ? That would be really awesome! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/8ddd309e30365a948848f72f10de8...@neutralite.org
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
Le 30.08.2013 05:04, Phi Debian a écrit : Hi Gary, Thanx you for getting back to the original post :) while I admit I did learn a bit of history about distro, display manager, etc... :) [snip] And what about cloning the git of vncserver, install development dependencies, and configure/make/make install? That would mean you would have fixes from vnc server's team, so that bug would be absent like in Ubuntu, and you could stay on Debian. There should be no big conflicts, since "usually" make install will install in /usr/local/. The only thing I can think about is that you will need to update it by hand, with git pull/make/make install. (and people here could know how to suppress that problem, but not me :) ) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/3d5655d61b27ea1c46f1e90928ee9...@neutralite.org
Re: What's the easiest and/or simplest part of Linux Kernel?
Le 30.08.2013 15:11, Jerry Stuckle a écrit : On 8/30/2013 2:00 AM, Joel Rees wrote: Okay, so, for you, supporting inheritance and polymorphism at run-time rather than at compile time is not sufficiently OOP. And I don't particularly care about that distinction. I'm fine with ending the discussion there. -- Joel Rees You keep claiming it can be done, but have done nothing to show how it can be done. So all I can assume is you cannot support your statement, because it can't be done. Don't worry - I've heard similar statements over the years from others who don't understand OOP. None of them have been able to support their statements, either. Jerry Here is what you defined for inheritance and polymorphism: 3. Inheritance: the ability to extend an existing class, to provide additional or different functionality via additional messages in the derived class. Inheritance takes advantage of the similarities in the base an derived classes. The base class has no knowledge of the derived class and, in fact, may not even know it is being used as a base class. Additional classes can be derived from the original base and derived classes with no change to the existing code. This cannot be done in C. 4. Polymorphism: the ability to send messages to a derived class object when you believe you have an object of the base class. This allows functions to operate on any class in the derived hierarchy, while only having to worry about the messages defined in the base class. This also cannot be done in C. Note that we agree on those definitions. Now, can you explain why the link I provided does not meet those requirements? For now, except saying to everyone that 1) they do not understand OOP and 2) you teach it from 25 years, you never gave any example of things we could do in any OOP language that we could not make in C according to your definition of OOP (on which I agree, again) not you destroyed the source code pointed by the link I gave. Oh, and, you also said something which implied that I said that SDL is a language, which is something I never said. Well, to be more precise, the functions and structures I referred to where obviously owned by libsdl1.2-dev (to write the Debian package's name) which is a library. So, you avoided replying to real arguments with yours, and you even used a straw man to discredit me? I will refrain my envy of irony here, instead I will be direct: I have seen people which were using a lot the argument of being older than me to convince me that I was wrong. They never convinced reality, when what they did failed, why my solutions were working fine. Wisdom and knowledge are not only a matter of age and teaching. Including teachers. This is the reason why I rarely accept an argument if it is not correctly built: explanation + example, so that it can be countered or not. While I am at it, let me say you that, a machine, in common language (I'm not very good with mathematics), have internal states that you do not need to know to use it's function. I have no idea about all the states of my car when I am driving. For example, I do not know, or need to know, the states of the spark plugs. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/a505a5a67ef41d7132e262f4cf0e2...@neutralite.org
Re: Choosing among "Desktop Enviroments" and/or "Windows Managers"
To switch between DEs, you can do it with the usual connection managers, IIRC. But I personally prefer to login on TTY and then start the window manager/DE of my choice. Usually, DEs have a 'start-my_favorite_de' command to do that. If you are tired about starting them by hand everytime, you can add those lines to your ~/.bash_profile file: if [ -z "$DISPLAY" ] && [ $(tty) == /dev/tty1 ];then startx fi Of course, starting from here can allow you to think about other things, like using startx for tty1, gnome for tty2, kde for tty3, etc. It is like the usual connection managers, but without the mouse or eyecandy stuff, and more lightweight. My current only problem with that is that I still need to enter my login and password at start, which is boring on my desktop, but I never tried to fix that for now. Le 16.09.2013 20:57, Richard Owlett a écrit : Dan Ritter wrote: On Mon, Sep 16, 2013 at 10:06:32AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote: As I have minimal to *NO INTERNET* access, when Debian 7.1 DVDs became available from vendors I purchased the 10 DVD set. I also purchased the live DVDs for Gnome, lxde, kde, and xfce. I did some test runs of each. I chose xfce for my initial Wheezy install based almost exclusively on "look and feel". It felt "comfortable" and seemed to express my somewhat vague ideas of how a GUI should 'act'. It was an educational experience. Each had something I'd like to see in an ideal installation. I also did more web browsing comparing "Desktop Environments" to "Windows Managers" and product comparisons within those classifications. /Questions 1. Given that I prefer LILO over GRUB and xfce over Gnome/lxde/kde, what GUIs should I investigate further. If you're happy with xfce, you shouldn't need to look further. xfce is a fully supported, first-class environment. I don't _need_ to, but I'm involved with other projects which might benefit. Also I'm retired with lots of free time and I find the topic interesting. If you like XFCE, you might also look at LXDE. It's tools are less linked between them than those of XFCE, and it's even more lightweight. I now use some carefully chosen parts of it in combination with i3, such as the primitive text editor (for notes. I use vim when I need a strong one) and the terminal emulator. Now, it seem you only know about stacking window managers. Let me give you a different direction to explore: tiling window managers. I will try to be as objective as possible, but remember that when I tried them, I simply fell in love with that paradigm, probably because I always was a computer tinkerer. So you are warned. There are, AFAIK, no DE with some of them (well, I have heard that KDE had an optional one in previous versions, but it was removed. No idea about the truth in those words, KDE is too heavy for my computer uses) but if you use lightweight DE, you can usually change the window manager. If you want the name of one on official DVDs, I think I would speak about i3, which is the first one I successfully tried, and the one which remain on my computers, bot netbook and dekstop with 2 screens. It's documentation claims that it is for powerusers but... I think it is only to not have people come and bother them with stupid questions like how to edit a text file, because the doc itself is very clear, and the configuration of that DE is *NOT* made with a programming language, which is a strong point and something which makes it very easy to use. In short, it uses a real configuration file, and it works when you install it, unlike all other TWM I have tried (but others have other features which can be useful as well). Now, why could someone be interested in that kind of managers? The difference is simply that, instead of having a stack of windows of different sizes that you have to manually set, each new window is automatically placed on the desktop and all windows are resized to fill the entire space without overlapping. This allows, for example, to control everything with your keyboard (pretty useful if you are mostly working with text, because you do not have to move a hand to the mouse.), or if you have more than one screen, it is really easier to be efficient with them, when it's painful with classic window managers (moving a mouse from a screen to another just to focus another application is painful, and using alt-tab is not always very fast). The problem is that they are usually not beautiful. I guess that the reason is that they are not very well known, and so, often made by power users for power users, like i3 claim. The beauty problem resides in the fact that there is no transparent windows, no rounded corners, no buttons to control the windows, etc (but there is still an optional title bar). This imply that heavy mouse users will find them harder to use, but maybe ( I never tried that ) it can be fixed by using window decorators or integrating them into
Re: Choosing among "Desktop Enviroments" and/or "Windows Managers"
Le 18.09.2013 14:22, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org a écrit : To switch between DEs, you can do it with the usual connection managers, IIRC. But I personally prefer to login on TTY and then start the window manager/DE of my choice. Usually, DEs have a 'start-my_favorite_de' command to do that. If you are tired about starting them by hand everytime, you can add those lines to your ~/.bash_profile file: if [ -z "$DISPLAY" ] && [ $(tty) == /dev/tty1 ];then startx fi Of course, starting from here can allow you to think about other things, like using startx for tty1, gnome for tty2, kde for tty3, etc. It is like the usual connection managers, but without the mouse or eyecandy stuff, and more lightweight. My current only problem with that is that I still need to enter my login and password at start, which is boring on my desktop, but I never tried to fix that for now. Le 16.09.2013 20:57, Richard Owlett a écrit : Dan Ritter wrote: On Mon, Sep 16, 2013 at 10:06:32AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote: As I have minimal to *NO INTERNET* access, when Debian 7.1 DVDs became available from vendors I purchased the 10 DVD set. I also purchased the live DVDs for Gnome, lxde, kde, and xfce. I did some test runs of each. I chose xfce for my initial Wheezy install based almost exclusively on "look and feel". It felt "comfortable" and seemed to express my somewhat vague ideas of how a GUI should 'act'. It was an educational experience. Each had something I'd like to see in an ideal installation. I also did more web browsing comparing "Desktop Environments" to "Windows Managers" and product comparisons within those classifications. /Questions 1. Given that I prefer LILO over GRUB and xfce over Gnome/lxde/kde, what GUIs should I investigate further. If you're happy with xfce, you shouldn't need to look further. xfce is a fully supported, first-class environment. I don't _need_ to, but I'm involved with other projects which might benefit. Also I'm retired with lots of free time and I find the topic interesting. If you like XFCE, you might also look at LXDE. It's tools are less linked between them than those of XFCE, and it's even more lightweight. I now use some carefully chosen parts of it in combination with i3, such as the primitive text editor (for notes. I use vim when I need a strong one) and the terminal emulator. Now, it seem you only know about stacking window managers. Let me give you a different direction to explore: tiling window managers. I will try to be as objective as possible, but remember that when I tried them, I simply fell in love with that paradigm, probably because I always was a computer tinkerer. So you are warned. There are, AFAIK, no DE with some of them (well, I have heard that KDE had an optional one in previous versions, but it was removed. No idea about the truth in those words, KDE is too heavy for my computer uses) but if you use lightweight DE, you can usually change the window manager. If you want the name of one on official DVDs, I think I would speak about i3, which is the first one I successfully tried, and the one which remain on my computers, bot netbook and dekstop with 2 screens. It's documentation claims that it is for powerusers but... I think it is only to not have people come and bother them with stupid questions like how to edit a text file, because the doc itself is very clear, and the configuration of that DE is *NOT* made with a programming language, which is a strong point and something which makes it very easy to use. In short, it uses a real configuration file, and it works when you install it, unlike all other TWM I have tried (but others have other features which can be useful as well). Now, why could someone be interested in that kind of managers? The difference is simply that, instead of having a stack of windows of different sizes that you have to manually set, each new window is automatically placed on the desktop and all windows are resized to fill the entire space without overlapping. This allows, for example, to control everything with your keyboard (pretty useful if you are mostly working with text, because you do not have to move a hand to the mouse.), or if you have more than one screen, it is really easier to be efficient with them, when it's painful with classic window managers (moving a mouse from a screen to another just to focus another application is painful, and using alt-tab is not always very fast). The problem is that they are usually not beautiful. I guess that the reason is that they are not very well known, and so, often made by power users for power users, like i3 claim. The beauty problem resides in the fact that there is no transparent windows, no rounded corners, no buttons to control the windows, etc (but there is still an optional title bar). This imply that heavy mouse users will find them harder to use, but maybe ( I never tried that ) it can be fixed by using window decorators o
Re: Re: One-Stop Debian Box Config Tool: Call for Collaborators!
Le 14.09.2013 10:25, Jarrod O'Flaherty a écrit : Yes! That's it, essentially. You have put it very well here. I wish I had described it in that way. I am, in a nutshell, looking to make the process of applying what we find on Wikis and message boards -- all of which is fantastically helpful -- to our systems just that much easier. So, what you are planning to do is a meta search-engine, which would be able to build template from current internet's content, and then generate the final solution for the user. Two lines of text. Probably dozens of month-man work. Not simply "a couple of hours a month". Do not think that programming is easy. Well, I am not against that idea, but I will not contribute, I do not think you will be able to even reach the beta state. Anyway, let me give you some hints, for both your technical and communication points. _ stop using as much '!'. No need to mimic advertisements like "lose 30Kg in 2 weeks! Without private yourself to eat good stuff!". I always wondered how those ads could work by taking people as fools like that... and your posts really shares such kind of points: too many enthusiasm, only showing points on a subjective and very positive point, etc. Plus, being too enthusiastic is a characteristic of people which does not have a lot of programming experience. I might be wrong, but, what if I assert you know programming since less than 3 years? _ stop using html when you are writing to a mailing list. I do not know for other clients, but mine support it, and it makes your text appear way too big. I can zoom to adjust it, but decent sized text then are too small, and it's boring. _ make a real description of your project. Show that you thought about it at least a little and it's not just an idea. People will not be convinced by just an idea. Even better, try to have a scale model to show. This will prove to people that you are actually serious and have real skills. Remember that projects always have drawbacks, and do not hesitate to say what they are. Be honest, in fact. _ take a look at debtags. It might help you to have ideas about how to do what I think you want to do, because installing softwares is the really first step of system administration. I do not know for synaptic, but aptitude did not really evolved to manage debtags and multi-arch correctly (in other problems it have, but it still is a good tool). _ being too enthusiastic for a project without clear objectives usually ends by over-engineering, which in turn makes the project hard to maintain, and dying before even reaching the beta stage. Now, do not feel insulted by things I said, I had the same problem before, was very, very enthusiast for my projects, at least for the 1st month of real work. Then, all of them died, it took more or less time, but they all did without reaching the beta stage. I think it's the normal way for people who likes programming. But liking programs is not enough to manage a project. First, show your skill with simple projects, that you can finish yourself, and then, slowly, move on bigger and bigger projects, when you'll have more experience. Anyway, I sincerely wish you good luck. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/b83b189f9221f0bf49bd166096442...@neutralite.org
Re: Thank you - was [Re: Choosing among "Desktop Enviroments" and/or "Windows Managers"]
Le 18.09.2013 13:31, Richard Owlett a écrit : Richard Owlett wrote: /Background [snip] /Questions 1. Given that I prefer LILO over GRUB and xfce over Gnome/lxde/kde, what GUIs should I investigate further. 2. Given that internet is effectively non-existent and internal/external disk space is effectively unlimited, how can I make as many as possible of the DE &/or WM on the distribution DVD simply available to experiment with? Thank you to all who replied. I was able to load multiple DE's/WM's and compare various permutations. What's the best? There is no best solution that we can give you. i3 is probably the best solution for me, but will be the poorest solution for some other people for which Gnome3 will be the best. Which in turn will not even meet the requirements of KDE's users. Every user is different, so should be every Debian installation, at least for personal needs (and sometimes you have different needs depending on the hardware too... ). The only thing other people can do to help you is showing you other roads. I still don't know. The exercise demonstrated that I had misconceptions about Debian "philosophy" and underlying structure [ e.g. led me to read more about package management]. This is Debian's philosophy as *I* see it: you will be able to choose all tools you want. Even the kernel, since you can use KFreeBSD ( ok it is recent, and maybe not fully tested, I do not know. I should try it someday. ) Debian is not a linux system, it is an operating system, which happen to be (often) relying on the linux kernel. This imply, for example, that systemd will probably not become the only one init system. Same for gnome for DEs or for grub2 for bootloaders (but, yes, they can be the default tool in a period of time). I guess this is why Debian meet my needs: you can tinker things easily, and so learn a lot even if you have poor starting knowledge. But do not worry, it seem that on that list, everyone is still learning things regularly. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/410fa7b8b21c6fda2fbd47591943b...@neutralite.org
Re: Thank you - was [Re: Choosing among "Desktop Enviroments" and/or "Windows Managers"]
Le 18.09.2013 22:28, Richard Owlett a écrit : berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote: [*SNIP*] I guess this is why Debian meet my needs: you can tinker things easily, and so learn a lot even if you have poor starting knowledge. But do not worry, it seem that on that list, everyone is still learning things regularly. That "tinkering" is generally recognized as valid in Debian community is part of my justification for using it. That does NOT mean that my sanity is never questioned :> I continue to say "Thank you" to the community. The best way to show that you liked what we did, is to do the same :) (and that's a nice way to learn stuff too, when more experienced people fix what you said) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/24da8f5d767a99439e35dfbad8b40...@neutralite.org
Re: Don't want a desktop environment
Le 21.09.2013 21:41, Fred a écrit : but I understand I need to do more than that. Seems like I need some display manager also? I did try to do aptitude install slim which installs, but it's not like it magically autostarts when I boot the system. What I need is to config slim to autostart, which will run i3 upon login? Or do I need to set up the X server to autostart? Thanks for any help! You do not need to install any manager ( gdm, slim, kdm... ) to start an X session: simply install xinit ( if it is still not here, I think it is required by session managers? ) and start your X session with "startx". Doing it by hand everytime is quite boring, of course, so you can add those lines to your ~/.bash_profile (create the file if it does not exists) : ### if [ -z "$DISPLAY" ] && [ `tty` == /dev/tty1 ] then startx fi ### If you need a hint about what is the -z, take a look at "man test", since in bash "[ something ]" means "test something". Since you are searching for the lightest solution, I think this is what you want. Of course, it means your login will not be a shiny graphical one, but if you really intend to use i3 (which I am using, it is really a nice wm) you probably do not aim at shiny stuff. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/ffd4270cb9ac25bd5c5fc38eb59e7...@neutralite.org
Re: Don't want a desktop environment
Le 22.09.2013 01:14, Paul Cartwright a écrit : On 09/21/2013 03:58 PM, Josef Bailey wrote: i3 is a very good wm I just installed & ran I3. I have a couple of issues. 1. it breaks Thunderbirds "n" to go to Next Message in another folder. So you have to constantly use the mouse to move to the next folder 2. You can no longer click on web links in Thunderbird , nothing happens. 3. When I went back to Trinity WM and ran Thunderbird, it was in fullscreen mode with no way to resize the window. I googled & found a workaround, but I don't think I3 plays nice with Thunderbird, so that won't work for me.. -- Paul Cartwright Registered Linux User #367800 and new counter #561587 I am not a thunderbird user, but I have never noticed that problem. Maybe you messed yourself with your configuration? Can you show us the configuration file you used and describe exact steps to reproduce? Anyway, I tried thunderbird (icedove in facts) to reproduce your bug, and indeed, I had bug. Network is no longer usable on the computer on which I did the try :) it's not really fun, I'll have to debug it now... I'll ask for help on another thread if I can not do it myself ( even localhost seems damaged btw, so at least it is not hardware failure ). -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4b63804d73d0ee46c94c593da198d...@neutralite.org
Re: Building computer
Le 28.09.2013 13:33, Stan Hoeppner a écrit : Hi Catherine, I haven't caught up with the rest of the thread but just wanted to address a couple points here. On 9/26/2013 11:12 AM, Catherine Gramze wrote: On Sep 26, 2013, at 1:05 AM, Stan Hoeppner wrote: What desktop applications are you using that require 8GB, let alone 16GB, of RAM? I'd think 4 would be plenty. If you wish to over buy DRAM, that's a personal choice. It will likely not improve performance in any meaningful way, for WOW in Wine, or anything else. I will be running more than one app at a time. For example WoW, a browser, a Ventrilo client, and a chat client at minimum. 4GB is more than plenty, unless WOW has turned into a complete and total memory hog. Obviously it eats more running through Wine emulation. But Win and WOW combined shouldn't eat more than 2GB, so you have 2GB left to the rest, which is plenty. I am only quickly reading the thread, and it's the 2nd time I see "wine" associated with "emulation". As the name says, WINE Is Not An Emulator, it does not emulate a computer, it does not emulate the windows' kernel, it emulates nothing. If WINE was an emulator, then GTK, Qt, GStreamer and almost everything on your computer would be emulators too. All those softwares are libraries, they provide functions to softwares and that's all. So, saying that running an application with WINE will take more memory than the same application without it needs proofs. Run an OS which does not depend on windows' kernel, Debian for example, with wine and without your desktop environment and other linux only applications. Instead, replace them with windows' applications, and then, if you effectively have difference of memory compared to the same application set on windows, then ok. What WINE does is translating application's requests when they have a different name, and implementing them when they does not exists on our systems. Plus, about the memory consumption wine, or any software library should take against another one, it is almost nothing. What takes memory in a software are data: graphics and sounds, of course, but also logic data, in case of WoW: player's lists, with their names, hp, etc. And that last kind of data is almost nothing compared to graphical resources of most 3D games. Add to this the performance difference between those systems, and you might even need less memory with linux. Or more. It depends on what the application needs, on the options of the kernel and other obscure things that I do not understand, even if I am a programmer ( but a good one and not a WINE one, however. ). For WoW, you will probably not need more memory than on windows, since it is a software used by a lot of people from a long time and so, probably have a good "support" from wine. And if you need more, then it will not be tons of MiB. It will not be measurable against the GiB that WoW probably needs for graphical resources. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/866d3396edcd37385680109ba03d2...@neutralite.org
Re: Building computer
Le 28.09.2013 22:46, Stan Hoeppner a écrit : On 9/28/2013 8:14 AM, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote: Le 28.09.2013 13:33, Stan Hoeppner a écrit : Hi Catherine, I haven't caught up with the rest of the thread but just wanted to address a couple points here. On 9/26/2013 11:12 AM, Catherine Gramze wrote: On Sep 26, 2013, at 1:05 AM, Stan Hoeppner wrote: What desktop applications are you using that require 8GB, let alone 16GB, of RAM? I'd think 4 would be plenty. If you wish to over buy DRAM, that's a personal choice. It will likely not improve performance in any meaningful way, for WOW in Wine, or anything else. I will be running more than one app at a time. For example WoW, a browser, a Ventrilo client, and a chat client at minimum. 4GB is more than plenty, unless WOW has turned into a complete and total memory hog. Obviously it eats more running through Wine emulation. But Win and WOW combined shouldn't eat more than 2GB, so you have 2GB left to the rest, which is plenty. I am only quickly reading the thread, and it's the 2nd time I see "wine" associated with "emulation". As the name says, WINE Is Not An Emulator, it does not emulate a computer, it does not emulate the windows' kernel, it emulates nothing. Whether you call it an emulator, translator, simulator, or Santa Claus, it 'provides' the Windows APIs to the application, the DLLs, etc. Providing this does require additional memory. It's not a large amount by today's standards, but it is non negligible. I made that case above and previously in the thread. So, you do think that an emulator is the same as a dynamic library? If yes, well... why not. But then, since all DL are emulators, do not use that word to prove that they'll consume more resources, being CPU or memory. So I'm unclear as to why you picked my reply for your rebuttal, given we're on the same page. The reason for which I replied, is that an emulator emulates a complete system and this have a huge overhead. WINE, as a dynamic library, could, theoretically ( I say theoretically because I did not ran any tests, I'll be honest on that point. Plus, it's impossible to have strictly the same costs ) have the same overhead than window's API. In practice, it will have a small CPU overhead, but to say it's not a small one, one should give some valgrind analysis. About the reason to reply to your post and not another one, it was because it was the second one saying that, that I had read on the same thread at the moment I replied :) It was not personal. The problem with 3D game performance under Wine I will not say it does not cost more than running on windows. I have no proofs. But it is not related to the fact it is an emulator, it can only be related to the fact it is a badder implementation, or one with more more layers. is not memory consumption, but the CPU overhead, CPU for 3D stuff? You might be right and I am probably wrong, but could not it be because linux's 3D drivers are less good than windows' ones? This is a real question, not a troll, and the reason of that opinion of mine is quite easy to understand, and so, probably very simplistic: video games are mostly targeting windows' users, and so, there were more money and time spent on enhancements... on windows' side. Well, again, I admit, I have no benchmark to prove my words. Of course, on a more technical point, I can agree that one more layer for OpenGL related stuff might have a cost. But, that cost might also be removed at compile time. I can learn that my opinion here is wrong, I have no problem with that. I'm wrong on a lot of things after all, and am always happy when I learn that I was wrong on something else. But give me any reason. Or a proof. Use a linux kernel, and a WINE base environment, then show be benchmarks. That would be sufficient. Or reasons for why wine should cost much ( so that I could do some searches on your words and my errors ). which I also made clear previously. This is exactly why I admitted having only read quickly the thread. Sorry, but I did not noticed that part. From my memories, what I have read and that might not be your own words ( I have also read that you say that a lot of RAM is useless for most users, and I agree with that ) was that wine + wow would take at least 2GB. It may be true, but from what I remember to have read, there was an implicit affirmation that it was due to wine, when it was because of the whole system. My reply was not against anyone, my apologies if it seems so. It was because an emulator is something, and an API is another different thing (but, with enough abstraction, we could say it's the same, since their uses is always to make a software running...) which have less costs. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/6c2fa4
boot problem: stuck at "Switching to clocksource tsc"
Hi. Since my last kernel update my desktop can not boot anymore, it is stuck at "Switching to clocksource tsc". Also, nothing at all reply, even the keyboard does just nothing. Of course, I was stupid enough to remove the last kernel without testing it, and I have no idea about what is wrong. The kernel currently installed on that computer is 3.10-3, which works perfectly on that computer ( a netbook ). I thought it was a problem with my lilo.conf, but I checked it for the 4th time ( which is not fun on recovery mode, since vim is just highly bugged in ansi mode ) and it seems fine. Few searches on the web indicates that it could be a compilation problem, but I have used the Debian's kernel without any change. I also tried to reinstall everything (just in case), but it does not changed anything (of course). -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/5beaeb9d67317109f033517b4487c...@neutralite.org
Re: About debain kernel stable repo
Le 06.10.2013 11:11, 陶治江 a écrit : Hello! I am using debian wheezy, and now I want to focus on the kernel study, or other stuffs. I can install release code from linux-source-3.2.xx package, But I want to ask whether we can access or track the debian official kernel repos (of stable release), It means I can using git or svn to get the lastest stable kernel source and the kernel updating tracks, without installing the latest source package. Any info would appreciated. Nicol This link might help you: https://alioth.debian.org/scm/?group_id=30428 Honestly, I am surprised, it seem they are using svn here, but I remember having seen git repo for other packages... Maybe you should ask such kind of things on the development mailing list, informations would be more precise and or updated. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/b476d5988751f24dbfba8a4b4e9f1...@neutralite.org
Recovery mode: impossible to run dpkg ( was Re: boot problem: stuck at "Switching to clocksource tsc" )
Le 05.10.2013 14:54, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org a écrit : Hi. Since my last kernel update my desktop can not boot anymore, it is stuck at "Switching to clocksource tsc". Also, nothing at all reply, even the keyboard does just nothing. Of course, I was stupid enough to remove the last kernel without testing it, and I have no idea about what is wrong. The kernel currently installed on that computer is 3.10-3, which works perfectly on that computer ( a netbook ). I thought it was a problem with my lilo.conf, but I checked it for the 4th time ( which is not fun on recovery mode, since vim is just highly bugged in ansi mode ) and it seems fine. Few searches on the web indicates that it could be a compilation problem, but I have used the Debian's kernel without any change. I also tried to reinstall everything (just in case), but it does not changed anything (of course). I think I have no other choice than trying to downgrade, so I have used ssh to send the packages ( that I kept on that computer ) to the target. Now, bterm which is used in recovery mode starts to be *very* annoying, and avoid dpkg to work! Here is what the system says: === Running depmod. Error opening terminal: bterm. debconf: dialog output the above errors, giving up! dpkg: erreur de traitement de linux-image-3.10-2-amd64 (--install) : le sous-processus script post-installation installé à retourné une erreur de sortie d'état 255 Des erreur ont été rencontrées pendant l'exécution : linux-image-3.10-2-amd64 === dpkg uses french messages, but I think they are useless. What is important is that I can not install package in recovery mode, so I can not revert my changes, which is very annoying in recovery mode. I checked if all files were correctly generated in /boot, just in case, but the initrd.img file is not. I suppose it is generated by depmod? Any idea about how to be able to run terminal stuff correctly in recovery mode? Maybe changing the terminal (if so, how could I do that?)? Honestly, recovery mode is easier than using the unusable busybox ( I stopped installing them when I understood that they allow to do nothing else than cd and ls. ), but having it unable to correctly run basic tools like text editors and dpkg is not nice. I could use a debian live or anything else, but I would like to be able to use the tools debian give us to repair damaged systems. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/cdae5ac3b2e4d42fa201d590c4810...@neutralite.org
Re: You can have any color you want - as long as it's Gnome?
Le 07.10.2013 09:10, Oliver Fairhall a écrit : Thanks for posting on this Jape. I'm new to Debian (preparing to install soon) and will likely be caught by this. Hope it's OK to ask some newby questions. I do not remember having read that this list is for experts only ;) On 07/10/13 02:31, Jape Person wrote: From my perspective, it looks to me as though the problem is network-manager-gnome's desire to install gnome-control-center. Xfce and LXDE both want network-manager-gnome, so they also get gnome-control-center, gnome-session, and just about everything else gnome-like. Is it possible to not install network-manager-gnome when installing Debian with XFCE? Debian's installer is not so flexible to allow you to choose softwares one by one, but it can allow you to install "tasks" one by one, by example "portable computer", "ssh server", "desktop", etc. If you want a minimal system and know 1) all uses you will have for your computer and 2) which softwares in Debian's repository to use for them, then I suggest you to uncheck all tasks' checkboxes. Then, when the installation will be finished, you will login on the TTY and install manually packages. For that, I honestly think that the aptitude's ncurses interface is the better, but "apt-get install [long list of software]" will work too, of course. ( another advice I could give you if you do not know what softwares to use for each task, is to install debtags, that you can access in aptitude's ncurses' interface in "view". This will help you to choose softwares according to various parameters like technology they use ) Of course, that kind of install is not the recommended one for people who are not ready to spend time on their computer: you might forget something and wonder why it does not work as you expect, when it would work fine on a classic installation. I've bypassed the network manager in Ubuntu in the past, running on a desktop machine, and just configured network access by text file anyway. Not sure if that would make things awkward on a laptop connecting to different wireless sites. I am editing /etc/network/interface too. It works perfectly, but of course, you will have to change the values and do some ifdown/ifup everytime you will change the target network. I guess it is possible to build some scripts to change network automatically, IIRC there is some kind of events that can be programmed, so, maybe... but I never tried. I stopped myself after making scripts to generate the interface file depending on a parameter and then down/up the wlan. Using tools made for that is probably easier. Are all these Gnome packages real dependencies for network-manager-gnome, or are they just selected by some other means? What is strange here, is that IIRC, XFCE uses network-manager, and not network-manager-gnome. Anyway, installing network-manager does not install the whole gnome DE here, at least not without installing recommended packages. Keeping automatic installation of those recommended packages would effectively install a lot of crap, because network-manager-gnome recommends other packages which, themselves, recommends or depends on DEs like KDE. I am only doing a short test here, so this reply should not be taken as the exact truth. Is there an alternative network manager for XFCE, and can one be selected during initial installation? During installation? I guess no, as I said previously, you can not choose a single package in the installer, only tasks, which are not precise at all. But post-installation, yes, network-manager-gnome depends on a package named network-manager. I did not noticed any GUI software depending on it, but I did not take a deep look. My bet is that there is one, I just do not know the name because I do not need it, being perfectly happy with my configuration edition (which would not be the right solution if I had a lot of places where I go frequently with my computer, of course) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/36fa5a4a42cc04729053e31447eff...@neutralite.org
Re: Recovery mode: impossible to run dpkg ( was Re: boot problem: stuck at "Switching to clocksource tsc" )
Le 06.10.2013 18:34, Curt a écrit : On 2013-10-06, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote: Any idea about how to be able to run terminal stuff correctly in recovery mode? Maybe changing the terminal (if so, how could I do that?)? export TERM=linux says google Thanks. But, this line does obviously not change the terminal: it lure the softwares so that they can not check that the real running terminal is not the good one. Remember the context: I am trying to save an installation from recovery mode, which is in TTY. However, I've just tried it, in case it would work. The dialog box is very ugly, since the formating is completely destroyed, but since changing kernel only shows a dialog box to say that one could have to install firmwares, it's ok. So, thanks you. Sadly, it does not resolve my original problem of clocksource... I guess I'll have to reinstall. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/36b8e96a3b4d8f802e18f77a2c148...@neutralite.org
Re: Compiz on Debian 7.1 problem
Le 07.10.2013 12:44, Douglas Brito a écrit : good day, please be possible to add repositories in compiz again, many users here in Brazil, the viviaolinux.org need this package and it is no longer possible to use the debian, some are switching distributions for this problem, it is not possible to compile it, or use the version 0.9.9 of ubuntu, any tips? thank you I do not know why it is not in stable, but I can see it in unstable: http://packages.debian.org/search?lang=fr&searchon=names&keywords=compiz -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/8dffc8b600169821140771f0c4db8...@neutralite.org
Re: You can have any color you want - as long as it's Gnome?
Le 07.10.2013 15:12, Curt a écrit : On 2013-10-07, Oliver Fairhall wrote: I want a light weight DE, and was thinking to use XFCE (been fine on my other distros). I'm at best an intermediate level with Linux, so will likely struggle with not installing Gnome (really don't want Gnome or KDE). With the wheezy netinstaller you simply choose 'Advanced Options' on the first page you're presented with, then 'Alternative desktop environments," then 'Xfce.' No Gnome. With this version of the netinstaller at least that's the way it's done: debian-wheezy-DI-rc1-amd64-netinst.iso The problem is that what you describe does not work as expected, according to the OP. It seem that installing XFCE DE will also install network-manager-gnome, which recommends the gnome desktop. Because recommendations are automatically installed, this will result in having gnome installed, and Oliver wants "light weight DE" and "not installing Gnome". -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/cbc7f3883ca81c4b0a826faa1c3d1...@neutralite.org
Re: You can have any color you want - as long as it's Gnome?
Le 07.10.2013 16:02, Curt a écrit : On 2013-10-07, Curt wrote: With the wheezy netinstaller you simply choose 'Advanced Options' on the first page you're presented with, then 'Alternative desktop environments," then 'Xfce.' No Gnome. With this version of the netinstaller at least that's the way it's done: debian-wheezy-DI-rc1-amd64-netinst.iso The problem is that what you describe does not work as expected, according to the OP. I followed the procedure described above, installing to a usb key, and when I booted the usb key I was in the desktop environment of my choice and not in Gnome. But I can't remember whether I chose Xfce or LXDE (but he said for the both of them he ended up in Gnome). So what I described worked as expected for me (I think--I didn't check to see whether all of Gnome got installed somehow behind my back). Anyhoo, the plot sickens. Actually, rereading his post, I don't see him saying he followed the procedure I followed anywhere; rather he says he installed testing without a DE, then tried to install a lightweight desktop with aptitude, so this is something of time-waster, isn't it? If so, yes, but I think that he first tried the procedure you described, because of those words: I needed to do a fresh installation of Debian on two systems for friends this weekend. I tried both stable (7.1) and the 10/02/2013 daily of testing -- both of them the netinst image. For both stable and testing I tried both LXDE and Xfce desktop environment installations. But when the systems rebooted, I was at the Gnome desktop. snip Okay. So I installed Debian testing without a DE, and then tried to add xfce-desktop via aptitude. I saw that I was still going to get Gnome and canceled the operation. I think that he meant that he first tried the normal way, and when seeing that it was not working tried testing with installation from aptitude. But I might have misunderstood something, would not be the first time and probably not the last too :) apt-get --no-install-recommends No? I guess. Must admit that my installation process is not really the fastest one: installing no package at first, then on reboot disabling automatic installation of recommended packages and finally install what I know I'll use :) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/b0b6600534f2ca73551ff3cf79d74...@neutralite.org
Re: schroot
Le 07.10.2013 18:38, shawn wilson a écrit : This is at the top of every config file, but I can't find it documented: . "$SETUP_DATA_DIR/common-data" . "$SETUP_DATA_DIR/common-functions" . "$SETUP_DATA_DIR/common-config" Where is this being sourced from (ie, where is the 'common-data' file?) and (more important) where is this documented? Doing "echo $SETUP_DATA_DIR" should help you, I think. And for documentation, reading about shell will also help you. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/6c8fe63572c303ff7017f63dd8d19...@neutralite.org
Re: Debian wheezy boot problem - Boot sector not identified by board
Le 07.10.2013 09:54, Roland RoLaNd a écrit : All, I have an intel dh77kc board. it previously had windows 7 installed on it. i tried installing debian wheezy net install. installation goes perfectly fine up untill reboot. once reboot is done, i get " Initializing and establishing link" and immediately goes into network boot I tried resetting bios settings to default, i even upgraded the bios itself. and changed from AHCI to IDE nothing is working so far. Note: i thought it's not debian specific, by installing windows 7 again. and it worked fine.. Any hint on what might be going on ? Are you sure the flag "boot" is set on the right partition? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/5d36dfb019ac15e1577048f18e5cf...@neutralite.org
Re: schroot
Le 07.10.2013 18:59, Shawn Wilson a écrit : berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote: Le 07.10.2013 18:38, shawn wilson a écrit : This is at the top of every config file, but I can't find it documented: . "$SETUP_DATA_DIR/common-data" . "$SETUP_DATA_DIR/common-functions" . "$SETUP_DATA_DIR/common-config" Where is this being sourced from (ie, where is the 'common-data' file?) and (more important) where is this documented? Doing "echo $SETUP_DATA_DIR" should help you, I think. And for documentation, reading about shell will also help you. I'm guessing this means it's exported by some schroot internal mechanism inside the schroot? I'm not sure what I don't know about bash that would help here? This doesn't seem to be an export bash knows about? I have no idea about what are the files you are speaking about, but the $ prefix usually indicates a variable in shell, and shell scripts are widely used in the system. To find what file could export that variable, try a grep -r SETUP_DATA_DIR, it might help you find which file uses that variable. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/c1e9972943119920c856a4233d103...@neutralite.org
Re: schroot
Le 07.10.2013 19:50, shawn wilson a écrit :
Not a bad idea. However:
find / -type f -print0 | xargs -0 -i{} -P 10 grep -H
'SETUP_DATA_DIR='
{} 2> /dev/null
found nothing.
On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 1:05 PM,
wrote:
Le 07.10.2013 18:59, Shawn Wilson a écrit :
berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote:
Le 07.10.2013 18:38, shawn wilson a écrit :
This is at the top of every config file, but I can't find it
documented:
. "$SETUP_DATA_DIR/common-data"
. "$SETUP_DATA_DIR/common-functions"
. "$SETUP_DATA_DIR/common-config"
Where is this being sourced from (ie, where is the 'common-data'
file?) and (more important) where is this documented?
Doing "echo $SETUP_DATA_DIR" should help you, I think. And for
documentation, reading about shell will also help you.
I'm guessing this means it's exported by some schroot internal
mechanism inside the schroot? I'm not sure what I don't know about
bash that would help here? This doesn't seem to be an export bash
knows about?
I have no idea about what are the files you are speaking about, but
the $
prefix usually indicates a variable in shell, and shell scripts are
widely
used in the system. To find what file could export that variable,
try a grep
-r SETUP_DATA_DIR, it might help you find which file uses that
variable.
Do not send me private mail for something like that, it could interest
someone else on the list.
Honestly, I can not help you more that that, I do not use chroot very
often, and do not know what is schroot. If the variable is not defined,
then maybe it have a default value.
Maybe if you find other files containing simply the SETUP_DATA_DIR text
(without '=' or '$') you could find more hints.
PS: do the giant line you posted above make the same thing as "grep -r
'SETUP_DATA_DIR=' 2>/dev/null" ? If yes, it seems quite complex for what
it does...
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Archive: http://lists.debian.org/46bc5f77d3e4a1c01373b74d77769...@neutralite.org
Re: apt-get vs. aptitude
Le 08.10.2013 13:33, Florian Lindner a écrit : Hello, Since I'm about to setup a new server using current stable wheezy, I want to recheck some of debian knowledge. What is the prefered tool for installing on the CLI? apt-get or aptitude? Last time I read about it, it was aptitude, due to better dependency checking. What is the current state? apt-get or aptitude? Does it matter? What about using both? Thanks! Florian Both are front-end for dpkg, so there will be no real difference on the system after using one, the other or both. I use both without any problem. The differences between them is that aptitude: * is slower * have more built-in features * have a ncurse interface The slowness of aptitude should not be noticeable on a fast computer like a server, so you can probably forgot about that. Built-in features aptitude have that apt-get *might* (I am not sure) not have *built-in* (but you can add apt-* stuff to add them I think) are some tools to support debtags (if installed), research of solutions when something is broken, and... I do not know what else :) The aptitude's ncurse GUI is nice, at least for an end-user like me. On a server, where I think you probably know what and why to install/update, I doubt it will be. But for the end user, it allows to quickly search and find a package depending on it's name, sorted by either categories or by debtags. The problem imho of that interface is that: * if you have any broken package ( by a modification you put, but did not validated ) it will be slow as hell ( it will checks solutions at each move for nothing ) * debtags are only shown as a tree, there is no really good interface to manage them ( but it is better than nothing ) * if you need multiarch, you will have to brows each package multiplied by the number of archs you use. Sadly, the interface did not used a way like the one used for versions for that... Conclusion: On a production server, I would use apt-get: faster. For testing needs, or R&D, I would go for aptitude and use it's interface to browse packages and find solutions depending on the current state of the system ( it is easier to check which dependencies are being installed with aptitude's ncurse GUI than on a command line ). Hope it helps. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/5129e9683e203ac0ad56c260d...@neutralite.org
Re: apt-get vs. aptitude
Le 08.10.2013 15:28, Whit Hansell a écrit : On 10/08/2013 08:57 AM, Morten Bo Johansen wrote: On 2013-10-08 Florian Lindner wrote: What is the prefered tool for installing on the CLI? apt-get or aptitude? Last time I read about it, it was aptitude, due to better dependency checking. What is the current state? apt-get or aptitude? Does it matter? What about using both? Both use libapt-pkg, so when used from the command line I don't think it matters which you use. Morten I had asked the same question a year ago or so and changed from aptitude to apt-get with using dist-upgrade for upgrades on both. On aptitude I was getting recommended packages no being installed but they are all installed using apt-get. I had always wondered about the recommends being held back and have found no problem having them installed using apt-get. Hope that helps. whit This only depends on your configuration. Aptitude's default is to install recommended packages, as for apt-get I think. For apt-get, there is a command-line option "--no-install-recommends" which allows you to not install those. Probably aptitude have something like this too ( I only know about the GUI's option ) and they probably both are able to store that choice in some configuration file. Installing recommended packages will probably not give you problems, if you do not care about your computer performances or the bandwith. Automatically adding recommended packages will add, and enable, services that you could never need, and on a server, adding services often means adding risks of bugs, and so of hacks. On my own computer, where I do not mind about being hacked ( at least, not at a point that I want to reinforce everything ) it will cost me resources: system and applications will be slower to start, and might even saturate my memory ( at least on my netbook with it's 1GB or ram ). It can also lead to behavior that I do not want. But, this will add features you could like, too. I see recommended packages as suggestions, and suggested packages as "see also". They are not evil, they simply need thinking before enabling all of them, if you want an efficient system ( lacking some of them will also need to inefficient systems ). Little example from here: Installing "only" network-manager-gnome and it's recommended packages leads to 345 packages automatically installed, 550MiB to download, and 193MiB to install (I use a tiling window manager and am as careful as my skills allows to avoid useless -for me- stuff, so, no complete DE). Installing it without recommended packages leads to 20 packages automatically installed, 28.2MiB to download, and 14.1MiB to install. Sounds like a nice hint about what is wrong with automatic installation of recommended packages for advanced users ;) ( here, it means 40 min to spend in downloads, at least, and it uses Debian's mirrors' bandwidth for nothing, too ) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/61f8caba26eb72e4dc9ad27dd5290...@neutralite.org
Re: I have an Openoffice question for small business.
Le 08.10.2013 14:10, Ezequiel a écrit : Hi all: I am Sysadmin at a small business. We have a complete mail-web-vpn infrastructure and my boss is happy with it. I guess we are a successful case of open software use in the "real world" But -of course, there is always an issue- my users keep complaining about OpenOffice migration to Libre Office. They even complain if I change OO from 3.2 to 3.3. I believe there were major changes in that version. The question is: Is there any way of freezing OO version indefinetly? I am currently using oldstable OO but I guess my time is going short. What will happen when they release the new version of debian? I don't know what to do... Thanks in advance for any advices. Zeke PD: My native language is not English, I'm sorry for any mistakes in my writing. First, I do want to say that you should follow previous advice to try to convince your users :) But since you did not ask "how to convince my users to upgrade", here is what you might want: Use the /etc/apt/preferences file. I used it some times ago but can not remember the exact syntax, but you should be able to quickly find some samples on debian's forums. Search for apt-pinning (the name of the technique iirc) and you should find nice examples in debian's forums. This technique is more often used to only use some packages from testing/unstable/experimental on stable, but you should be able to adapt it for your needs easily: simply give very low priorities to the packages you want. But you should know that it also means that OO (or LO) dependencies will also need to be frozen, and this might avoid other other updates, in turn. Have fun :) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/f69b149088fbb64b728c572c1ee23...@neutralite.org
Re: I have an Openoffice question for small business.
Le 08.10.2013 16:14, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org a écrit : Le 08.10.2013 14:10, Ezequiel a écrit : Hi all: I am Sysadmin at a small business. We have a complete mail-web-vpn infrastructure and my boss is happy with it. I guess we are a successful case of open software use in the "real world" But -of course, there is always an issue- my users keep complaining about OpenOffice migration to Libre Office. They even complain if I change OO from 3.2 to 3.3. I believe there were major changes in that version. The question is: Is there any way of freezing OO version indefinetly? I am currently using oldstable OO but I guess my time is going short. What will happen when they release the new version of debian? I don't know what to do... Thanks in advance for any advices. Zeke PD: My native language is not English, I'm sorry for any mistakes in my writing. First, I do want to say that you should follow previous advice to try to convince your users :) But since you did not ask "how to convince my users to upgrade", here is what you might want: Use the /etc/apt/preferences file. I used it some times ago but can not remember the exact syntax, but you should be able to quickly find some samples on debian's forums. Search for apt-pinning (the name of the technique iirc) and you should find nice examples in debian's forums. This technique is more often used to only use some packages from testing/unstable/experimental on stable, but you should be able to adapt it for your needs easily: simply give very low priorities to the packages you want. But you should know that it also means that OO (or LO) dependencies will also need to be frozen, and this might avoid other other updates, in turn. Have fun :) Sorry for my self reply, but I just thought of that: Another solution, not the easiest one but which would avoid freezing dependencies, would be download source of OO and compile it ( not on all computers of course, only on yours ) and then distributing the binary through a package. To download source and install libraries needed, you can do something like: aptitude build-dep openoffice ( will install development libraries OO will need ) apt-get source openoffice ( will download source code for openoffice ) apt-get source will download an archive with source code, so untar it, and then probably do the old "./configure && make". Next steps is to build a package, but I can not help you on those, however a lot of people here can probably. And the last one is to distribute it. For that, you might want to setup a local repository, add your OO package in it, and add that repo to the sources.list ( or sources.list.d/local_OO.list, if you prefer ) of the desktops. That procedure is more complex than the one with file preferences, but can survive longer without giving you cascading version problems in future. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/91db1f8ed6f5b21c861a2956ef2ca...@neutralite.org
Re: apt-get vs. aptitude
Le 08.10.2013 16:15, Richard Owlett a écrit : berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote: Le 08.10.2013 13:33, Florian Lindner a écrit : Hello, Since I'm about to setup a new server using current stable wheezy, I want to recheck some of debian knowledge. What is the prefered tool for installing on the CLI? apt-get or aptitude? Last time I read about it, it was aptitude, due to better dependency checking. What is the current state? apt-get or aptitude? Does it matter? What about using both? Thanks! Florian Both are front-end for dpkg, so there will be no real difference on the system after using one, the other or both. I use both without any problem. The differences between them is that aptitude: * is slower * have more built-in features * have a ncurse interface The slowness of aptitude should not be noticeable on a fast computer like a server, so you can probably forgot about that. Built-in features aptitude have that apt-get *might* (I am not sure) not have *built-in* (but you can add apt-* stuff to add them I think) are some tools to support debtags (if installed), research of solutions when something is broken, and... I do not know what else :) The aptitude's ncurse GUI is nice, at least for an end-user like me. On a server, where I think you probably know what and why to install/update, I doubt it will be. But for the end user, it allows to quickly search and find a package depending on it's name, sorted by either categories or by debtags. The problem imho of that interface is that: * if you have any broken package ( by a modification you put, but did not validated ) it will be slow as hell ( it will checks solutions at each move for nothing ) * debtags are only shown as a tree, there is no really good interface to manage them ( but it is better than nothing ) * if you need multiarch, you will have to brows each package multiplied by the number of archs you use. Sadly, the interface did not used a way like the one used for versions for that... Conclusion: On a production server, I would use apt-get: faster. For testing needs, or R&D, I would go for aptitude and use it's interface to browse packages and find solutions depending on the current state of the system ( it is easier to check which dependencies are being installed with aptitude's ncurse GUI than on a command line ). Hope it helps. Don't know if it helps the OP, but it does help me. Thank you. Nice :) I'm experimenting with a very lean idiosyncratic install. It sounds as aptitude will be appropriate for me. Off to read man pages etc ;) Don't copy me! xD More seriously, without aptitude, I would probably not be with debian ( probably I would have stayed with windows, that I known better some years ago ), and it is really that tool which allowed me to have fast as lighting computers built from low-price hardware ( but no one that I know could use any of my systems if I am far away ). You might also be interested by dselect, I have read about it several times, but never took enough time to really discover it. My first moves when installing a new system: uncheck all ( yes, including basic tools ) checkboxes while installing, booting on the new system, disabling in aptitude the automatic install of recommended stuff, and install only packages that I invoke by myself. Sometimes I take some fun to also purge all packages ( yes, all of them: go to root entry of aptitude and then press '_' ) to add them back one by one in the preview, marking all packages I do not remove as automatically installed ( so that they'll go away when there will be no reason to keep them ). It's nice to see that Debian still install some tools which are not really needed when you uncheck everything at install time. Be careful, that way to install a computer is the best one to install broken systems :) but I'll bet that you know that ( it's more a disclaimer for people who could fall on that mail ) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/93b69918bea6daefb0cdb0a57a8bb...@neutralite.org
apt-pinning, strange behavior
Since I had to reinstall from my last kernel error, I decided to stay with stable on that computer, but I need some softwares in less outdated versions, like development libraries or i3 ( this one is not a need but a question of comfort, I admit ), so I want to use apt-pining. I have set all packages from stable to a priority of 900 and testing packages with 500. But tzdata wants to upgrade, for an unknown reason. Explicitly making it to a priority of 900 for stable fixes that, but I can not understand why it is needed? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/28f8d241e1c1bcf2f24cb2073969d...@neutralite.org
Re: apt-pinning, strange behavior
Le 08.10.2013 22:42, Sven Joachim a écrit : On 2013-10-08 19:06 +0200, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote: Since I had to reinstall from my last kernel error, I decided to stay with stable on that computer, but I need some softwares in less outdated versions, like development libraries or i3 ( this one is not a need but a question of comfort, I admit ), so I want to use apt-pining. I have set all packages from stable to a priority of 900 and testing packages with 500. But tzdata wants to upgrade, for an unknown reason. Explicitly making it to a priority of 900 for stable fixes that, but I can not understand why it is needed? I don't know either, but "apt-cache policy tzdata" should explain it. Cheers, Sven Thanks for the hint, I had forgotten about apt-cache policy. I finally understood, why the update was on the run: tzdata: Installé : 2013d-0wheezy1 Candidat : 2013d-1 Table de version : 2013d-1 0 500 http://ftp2.fr.debian.org/debian/ testing/main amd64 Packages *** 2013d-0wheezy1 0 500 http://ftp2.fr.debian.org/debian/ stable-updates/main amd64 Packages 100 /var/lib/dpkg/status 2013c-0wheezy1 0 900 http://ftp2.fr.debian.org/debian/ stable/main amd64 Packages Version 2013d-0wheezy1 had the same priority as testing one so testing was installed because more recent. Now, I wonder why I have 3 versions of that package listed when I only have 2 sources enabled? Could it be because of stable, stable/updates and stable-updates repositories? ( I am not used to stable, so I do not have the "updates" repos usually ) And also why I have a wheezy version with a priority of 500... I can not even find the 2013d-0wheezy1 in debian packages... -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/9dc2fe2bca18a98dd48abc1de5313...@neutralite.org
which MTA to choose for a simple client?
Hi. I finally decided myself to install a software to manage my mails. So, I think I'll go for mutt: it appears quite often on the list ( so I might ask if I have problems, before trying another one when everything will be ok ) and runs into a terminal, which makes it perfect for me since I use a tiling window managers: it will never spawn ugly dialog in my face for a reason or another, and for the situations when I simply want to run a TTY without X, it will fit perfectly too. But now, it seems ( says this article http://nongeekshandbook.blogspot.fr/2009/02/mutt-email-client-that-sucks-less.html ) that it needs 2 other tools: one to fetch mails from server, and another one to send them. For the fetcher, I am surprised that debian does not seems to recommend or suggest using one, so I will not spend time on that -for now at least- and will do as the article says, unless I discover something interesting in the process. But for the tool to send mails, things are different: I can count 16 alternatives. Some are obviously wrong for my use, like lsb-invalid-mta, postfix or exim ( those last ones are probably too big for my simple usage, they seems designed for big boxes where mailing is an important task ), but even after removing some obvious ones, I still have a lot of choice. So, here is my question: What would you use as a MTA on a Debian system made for an end-user? Of course, I could take one of them at random and try to go with it, but I would like to take the occasion to learn basics about that, without installing a tool from which I will never use or understand 10% of the features... So, I would like something which: _ supports IMAP, POP3 and SMTP ( this does not sound excessive I think, but if there are other important protocols, I do not even know their existences or uses ) _ is not a daemon running constantly: why should I have a daemon running to send mail when I am not connected to Internet or not taking care of my mails? Something which is started by the client ( MUA it seem? ) is good enough for me and does not consume time when starting or shutting down my computers. _ is lightweight, because I always aim to have a system which let all possible resources to my compilers, and which respect my batteries. I bet that if I can still survive 4H with wifi after 3 years of intensive use, it is partly because I do not use heavy softwares. _ is configured by raw text in the good old UNIX way because I have learn so many from Debian's configuration files and their comments, which are very useful when you messed everything and can not even access Internet :) Does it even exists? If not, what is, in your opinions, the better to fit those goals? Thanks. PS: sorry for the long description of my request, but I tried to be as complete as possible. Hopefully it makes things I aim for more clear... -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/971376ed67115d6ae8b5d28130021...@neutralite.org
Re: google-chrome-unstable apparently removes its executable
Le 09.10.2013 02:43, Stephen Allen a écrit : On Sun, Oct 06, 2013 at 11:42:15AM -0400, Patrick Wiseman wrote: Updating two testing systems this morning, I found that my Chrome suddenly became unable to find any web pages. Attempting to relaunch, it wasn't there! 'which google-chrome' returned nothing. I tried 'sudo apt-get install google-chrome-unstable', but it was already installed. Finally, on both systems, I did 'sudo apt-get install google-chrome-stable' and now have a working Chrome again. I guess that's what I get for being willing to live with unstable! On the other hand, which will only show you the command with the exact name you provided it, right? You would have better informations if you simply list the content of the package and grep it with /usr/bin, so that it would show the binaries. Something like "$apt-file list google-chrome-unstable |grep '/usr/bin'" should do the trick, and says if the command you are searching from has not simply be renamed. ( sorry Stephen to reply to you but it seem I have deleted the OP's post ) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/580087039fc63d642e876e55215aa...@neutralite.org
Re: apt-pinning, strange behavior
Le 09.10.2013 11:17, Marko Randjelovic a écrit : On Wed, 09 Oct 2013 00:12:46 +0200 berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote: Le 08.10.2013 22:42, Sven Joachim a écrit : > On 2013-10-08 19:06 +0200, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote: > >> Since I had to reinstall from my last kernel error, I decided to >> stay >> with stable on that computer, but I need some softwares in less >> outdated versions, like development libraries or i3 ( this one is >> not >> a need but a question of comfort, I admit ), so I want to use >> apt-pining. >> >> I have set all packages from stable to a priority of 900 and testing >> packages with 500. >> But tzdata wants to upgrade, for an unknown reason. Explicitly >> making >> it to a priority of 900 for stable fixes that, but I can not >> understand why it is needed? > > I don't know either, but "apt-cache policy tzdata" should explain it. > > Cheers, >Sven Thanks for the hint, I had forgotten about apt-cache policy. I finally understood, why the update was on the run: tzdata: Installé : 2013d-0wheezy1 Candidat : 2013d-1 Table de version : 2013d-1 0 500 http://ftp2.fr.debian.org/debian/ testing/main amd64 Packages *** 2013d-0wheezy1 0 500 http://ftp2.fr.debian.org/debian/ stable-updates/main amd64 Packages 100 /var/lib/dpkg/status 2013c-0wheezy1 0 900 http://ftp2.fr.debian.org/debian/ stable/main amd64 Packages Version 2013d-0wheezy1 had the same priority as testing one so testing was installed because more recent. Now, I wonder why I have 3 versions of that package listed when I only have 2 sources enabled? Could it be because of stable, stable/updates and stable-updates repositories? ( I am not used to stable, so I do not have the "updates" repos usually ) And also why I have a wheezy version with a priority of 500... I can not even find the 2013d-0wheezy1 in debian packages... The answer to your question is in files /var/lib/apt/lists/*_Release. You can notice the difference: Suite: stable Suite: stable-updates Thanks. I did not thought that it would be considered as a different repo, which is absent from http://packages.debian.org but it explains the behavior I have. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1a5f89a7d2f551b1158e86eecc6df...@neutralite.org
Re: which MTA to choose for a simple client?
Le 09.10.2013 04:48, Jerry Stuckle a écrit : On 10/8/2013 9:13 PM, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote: Hi. I finally decided myself to install a software to manage my mails. So, I think I'll go for mutt: it appears quite often on the list ( so I might ask if I have problems, before trying another one when everything will be ok ) and runs into a terminal, which makes it perfect for me since I use a tiling window managers: it will never spawn ugly dialog in my face for a reason or another, and for the situations when I simply want to run a TTY without X, it will fit perfectly too. But now, it seems ( says this article http://nongeekshandbook.blogspot.fr/2009/02/mutt-email-client-that-sucks-less.html ) that it needs 2 other tools: one to fetch mails from server, and another one to send them. For the fetcher, I am surprised that debian does not seems to recommend or suggest using one, so I will not spend time on that -for now at least- and will do as the article says, unless I discover something interesting in the process. But for the tool to send mails, things are different: I can count 16 alternatives. Some are obviously wrong for my use, like lsb-invalid-mta, postfix or exim ( those last ones are probably too big for my simple usage, they seems designed for big boxes where mailing is an important task ), but even after removing some obvious ones, I still have a lot of choice. So, here is my question: What would you use as a MTA on a Debian system made for an end-user? Of course, I could take one of them at random and try to go with it, but I would like to take the occasion to learn basics about that, without installing a tool from which I will never use or understand 10% of the features... So, I would like something which: _ supports IMAP, POP3 and SMTP ( this does not sound excessive I think, but if there are other important protocols, I do not even know their existences or uses ) _ is not a daemon running constantly: why should I have a daemon running to send mail when I am not connected to Internet or not taking care of my mails? Something which is started by the client ( MUA it seem? ) is good enough for me and does not consume time when starting or shutting down my computers. _ is lightweight, because I always aim to have a system which let all possible resources to my compilers, and which respect my batteries. I bet that if I can still survive 4H with wifi after 3 years of intensive use, it is partly because I do not use heavy softwares. _ is configured by raw text in the good old UNIX way because I have learn so many from Debian's configuration files and their comments, which are very useful when you messed everything and can not even access Internet :) Does it even exists? If not, what is, in your opinions, the better to fit those goals? Thanks. PS: sorry for the long description of my request, but I tried to be as complete as possible. Hopefully it makes things I aim for more clear... I use Exim on my servers - and they don't handle much mail, and have ever since I started with Debian. It can be a real pain to configure due to its flexibility, but the default configuration will probably work for you. And SpamAssassin installs nicely into the Exim4 configuration. I guess it will probably works out of the box, yes. I trust Debian a lot for that, but I am the tinkerer kind of users, so it will quickly be out-of-order because of my changes in the search of the optimal system ;) I've done a fair amount of custom configuration, especially to keep spam down. But that's also been done over a period of years, not all at one time. Since my intent ( I forgot to explicitly mention that ) is to simply get my mails from an Internet mailbox ( the one I'm currently using ) I do not really feel the need to redo the job the admins made. I'll prefer to move them to the dedicated section of the distant MTA where a bot will learn from them, which will contribute to overall quality of the service instead of only my computer. One thing you do need to be careful with, no matter which MTA you use. Don't make it an open relay - you'll soon become a source of SPAM. And you should take steps to prevent bots from guessing your userid and password (I use fail2ban). Jerry Should I guess from this that I'll have to configure my router for some port forwarding? It's not something hard, but it will not be possible everywhere I could go with the netbook... But I'll keep that in mind anyway. It must not be so hard to only relay mail from localhost... Thanks for your reply -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/49270eaeb7dd8c2695ea11165a1b3...@neutralite.org
Re: which MTA to choose for a simple client?
Le 09.10.2013 04:57, Celejar a écrit : What would you use as a MTA on a Debian system made for an end-user? I've used Exim, basically because it's (was?) the Debian default. I do not want a default software just because it is the default. Otherwise I would have be perfectly happy with windows, and then on Debian with gnome and then... well. I'm not. Exim is probably a very good and complete - and so complex - tool, I do not doubt it, but I really feel like it is over-engineering to use it on a computer which does does not have any mail server task (being for a gigantic enterprise, a small one or a family does not change the idea of mail server in my mind. I have a simplistic vision of admin tasks, I know). And I try to avoid OE on my computers and softwares. For planet's ecology and my economy's sake, OE is bad :p Plus, I want to continue my linux road with more and more understanding of my system. Too complex tools is a problem for that when it's not your main task to maintain them. _ is not a daemon running constantly: why should I have a daemon running to send mail when I am not connected to Internet or not taking care of my mails? Something which is started by the client ( MUA it seem? ) is good enough for me and does not consume time when starting or shutting down my computers. _ is lightweight, because I always aim to have a system which let all Assuming you're using a smarthost (relay host), you can use a relay server such as ssmpt, msmtp or nullmailer which I believe all meet these two conditions. By relay host, you mean the server from which I am sending this mail ( through a web interface )? If so, yes, I only want to discuss with it, except if there is some advantage ( for me or that server ) to directly send mails to their final server. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/023b440d9be6811932809326b7a27...@neutralite.org
Re: which MTA to choose for a simple client?
Le 09.10.2013 11:08, Jochen Spieker a écrit : berenger.mo...@neutralite.org: I finally decided myself to install a software to manage my mails. Good luck! My impression is that this is one of the few things that have not become considerably easier on Linux in the last ten years. Mutt is still a good choice today if you can live with the limits of a terminal. I use it myself, but not completely exclusively. I can live enough with terminal's limits to no longer using IDE for programming, no longer using graphical file-manager to manage my files, and even to start user installed applications. In fact, I simply can not support the limits of graphical GUIs: they force me to grab my mouse for minor tasks that I should be able to do with keyboard. I still have the web browser to adapt on my todo-list, opera is nice but still have failures in this regard. Plus, GUIs are rarely efficient when you use dark background, and white background hurts less my eyes at night when switching from the dark ones that I like to use for terminals. You need to address at least these questions: - How do I plan to access mails using mutt (IMAP or local storage?) IMAP. Local storage is probably nice for some uses, but I'll be honest: I can not see the interest of reading all my mails without Internet access. I do not say there are no uses for that, simply, they are not my uses. that part completely if you mail is already on an IMAP-capable server. Mutt can access that as well. Works fine for me. Some people complain about speed, but that doesn't apply to me. As long as you have header caching enabled in mutt and your mailboxes are smaller than, say, 10,000 mails, it should be fast enough. So it seems that it is perfect for me. I often clean my mails so have less than 200, and the server is IMAP-capable. This is handy if you use several different mail providers Few months ago, I had something like 4 or 5 addresses. It was a ugly and boring mess, so I deleted most of them and only kept this one. No ads, associative work, no headaches because standard features of server are configured in ways to only work by some software of the same company's defaults, etc. I no longer have need for multiple addresses, now when I need a garbage mail, I ask jetable.org to give me a temporary one. or if several people use the mail server. It is for a personal use. I want an advanced end-user desktop, not a universal computer able to make tea and coffee. For the fetcher, I am surprised that debian does not seems to recommend or suggest using one, so I will not spend time on that -for now at least- and will do as the article says, unless I discover something interesting in the process. Setups like yours have come out of fashion in the last few years. People either use GUI clients or web interfaces these days. :-/ I use web interfaces for now. You can not be surprised of that when you see the difference of time needed between a web-client or a heavy GUI client ( thunderbird, MS outlook... I do not mind ) versus client which only does one thing but does it correctly, after X hours of configuration and choice. Having tools which does their stuff correctly imply that you have to find and understand them. That's what I want to end-up for my mail client. _ is not a daemon running constantly: why should I have a daemon running to send mail when I am not connected to Internet or not taking care of my mails? Don't be bothered about that. My central Postfix server in my LAN uses less than 5MB of RAM. It really doesn't matter. Total CPU usage in 100 days of uptime is about 36 seconds. 5MiB are nothing, true. It is only 0.5% of the capacity of my netbook and you can divide that by 4 for my desktop: 1GB and 4GB or ram. But I also have a very old computer with less than 200MB which is surprisingly not so slow with a Debian on it. Here, it is not so negligible. Plus, if for every single task I want to do frequently, I think '5MB are nothing', then I'll quickly come to have, say, 30*5 = 150MB, which is not nothing. Of course, on my system I guess that it won't take 5MB, since I have less mails to process, and my systems are often restarted. My average uptime is probably close to 8H for all my computers. Something which is started by the client ( MUA it seem? ) is good enough for me and does not consume time when starting or shutting down my computers. _ is lightweight, because I always aim to have a system which let all possible resources to my compilers, and which respect my batteries. I bet that if I can still survive 4H with wifi after 3 years of intensive use, it is partly because I do not use heavy softwares. Ok, I see where you are coming from. But believe my when I say that a simple full-fledged MTA does not use any considerable amount of resources (unless you constantly bombard it with more than ten mails per second). Startup time is also negligible. _ is configured by
Re: which MTA to choose for a simple client?
Le 09.10.2013 14:05, Curt a écrit : What use do you find for an MTA if you're using IMAP? I do not know, really. I simply have read here and there that it was needed, and since I have noticed so much choice in aptitude, I asked here to understand what solution would be the best. If it is to not use any stuff like that, then I am really happy. Of course, there's the question of local daemons (etc.) sending system messages to root (there are small, simple solutions for that). I am happy without that, since at least 2 years. Having a desktop computer, and not a server, I have removed most daemons which are installed by default. I still have near 100 processes running in my back, of course, and I would like to know what are their roles, but I think they are not daemons: /usr/sbin/service --status-all gives me less than 40 lines ( on the fresh install of my desktop, on which there things that I do not use like cron for example ) and not all of them are running ( if I interpret correctly the ouput, which is not certain ). As far as having multiple smart hosts, alpine (my mail client) handles that with "roles" easily enough. I'm sure (well, I'm optimistic) Mutt can do the same thing. I am trying to put myself into that world of local mail clients, so I can not say if it does or not :) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/617e24811f5419695452562837352...@neutralite.org
Re: apt-get vs. aptitude
Le 09.10.2013 15:39, Richard Owlett a écrit : berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote: Le 08.10.2013 16:15, Richard Owlett a écrit : [snip] I'm experimenting with a very lean idiosyncratic install. It sounds as aptitude will be appropriate for me. Off to read man pages etc ;) Don't copy me! xD More seriously, without aptitude, I would probably not be with debian ( probably I would have stayed with windows, that I known better some years ago ), and it is really that tool which allowed me to have fast as lighting computers built from low-price hardware ( but no one that I know could use any of my systems if I am far away ). You might also be interested by dselect, I have read about it several times, but never took enough time to really discover it. My first moves when installing a new system: uncheck all ( yes, including basic tools ) checkboxes while installing, booting on the new system, disabling in aptitude the automatic install of recommended stuff, and install only packages that I invoke by myself. Sometimes I take some fun to also purge all packages ( yes, all of them: go to root entry of aptitude and then press '_' ) to add them back one by one in the preview, marking all packages I do not remove as automatically installed ( so that they'll go away when there will be no reason to keep them ). It's nice to see that Debian still install some tools which are not really needed when you uncheck everything at install time. Be careful, that way to install a computer is the best one to install broken systems :) but I'll bet that you know that ( it's more a disclaimer for people who could fall on that mail ) AMEN to last paragraph. But those broken systems can be educational. I'm a newbie whose learning style is very hands on, with a laptop devoted ONLY to experimenting with installs. Yesterday's education was titled "How small can a NEWBIE make a working XFCE system?". Your post, among others, encouraged me to try leaving "basic tools" unchecked. I followed with "apt-get --no-install-recommends lightdm xfce4". On reboot I got a blinking cursor. ONLY a blinking cursor - couldn't discover a way to do anything. Got to a terminal, purged lightdm and xfce4 and reinstalled. You should try to not install display managers, and then starting your XFCE installation with startx, on a TTY. Without recommended packages, you should have a working DE like this ( only used GDM and XDM IIRC, but using none since many months now). Also, since I also started on XFCE I think I can say that without too much errors, you could have some fun installing XFCE's packages one by one, instead of relying on the meta-packages. The first time I did this was to remove orage, since I had no use for it and it was a dependency, where I would have loved it to be a simple recommendation. And, purging them will not remove all packages they might have installed through recommendations, since those recommendations are often shared with other tools you have. Purging stuff only removes configuration files in /etc after ( or not after, I do not know nor mind ) having removed the software, nothing more, nothing less. The lesson learned? That whether or not something is a dependency is in eyes of beholder. LOL I apologize, but I have no idea about what does means "eye of the beholder". Beneficial side effect - guided reading of the description/recommends/suggests fields of packages. To know what a program can do, reading them is truly very useful. But sometimes, it is interesting to use the reverse of that feature: reading packages which are in need of a target, for example, Qt, Gtk, python... in order to purge your system of technologies you do not want for a reason or another. Doing this with perl is especially fun, same for all "mandatory" packages. You won't become a sysadmin like that, but you might learn what is really useful or not. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/8f0a53ece783ae3b383eb190eb70d...@neutralite.org
Re: Tool for investigating dependency chains?
Le 09.10.2013 17:22, Richard Owlett a écrit : I'm in the process of doing some idiosyncratic minimalistic installs using the "--no-install-recommends" option of apt-get. What I would like to do is enter the package name. The tool's response would be a list of the recommended packages and their associated description from packages.gz. At the moment the referenced repository would be a distribution DVD. It's doable completely manually, but ;/ TIA This is one of the reasons I like a lot aptitude. Run it in GUI mode (no argument, it can be used with any user, not only root), search for the package you want (press '/' and enter a regex describing the package's name you want), and press enter. You will have description, debtags, lot of various informations, and at the end, just before all versions you can install: _ dependencies it have ( what it depends, recommends and suggests) _ which packages depends on it ( being a conflict, a dependency, a recommendation or a simple suggestion) _ which packages does it provides ( for virtual packages, like x-window-manager, x-display-manager, editor, x-terminal-emulator and much other. Those are only the probably most important ones for most users. ) Those are trees, with "depends on" or "depended by", then package name, and then complete name of package, including versions. Sometimes you have choice, more than one package name can fulfill a single dependency, and/or a meta-package is here. In those situations, each possible package is simply shown in the complete package list. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1ae79e1bfed2f925b56774e4c1131...@neutralite.org
Re: apt-get vs. aptitude
Le 09.10.2013 19:11, Dmitrii Kashin a écrit : I met situations when aptitude completly broke functioning of APT. APT utilities in their turn are simpler, and they are more preferred to manage packages. Just curious here, how could aptitude break apt? AFAIK, both uses dpkg for packages' installations, the only things they do, imho, are selection and downloads of packages and their dependencies, so I am really curious about what could be broken there. I have read that some years ago, things were not as simple as that and that apt and aptitude would have broken each other because aptitude maintained it's own database of what is installed, but it really was years ago: I have always used a mix depending on my simple feeling of the moment to install/remove package and never had problems. I only know that because of some ancient readings, so having some more info on that subject interests me, especially if it is still actual. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/31d5d794d9768d125f3a9dcd0457f...@neutralite.org
Re: Tool for investigating dependency chains?
Le 09.10.2013 19:49, Richard Owlett a écrit : If I can correctly read and follow instructions (friends and family tend to doubt), the above tells me too much about what is already installed and not enough about what is not installed :( Hehe, I can understand your friends, or maybe I was not clear enough. ;) You can select installed package, or not: aptitude shows all packages you could install, not only the ones you have actually installed. Plus, there are here another informations that I did not spoke about: it will show you the current state of the package, aka: installed, automatically installed, removed or absent from the system ( it means never installed or purged ). Those informations are shown with the characters before the package full name ( name + version ). "i" means installed, "iA" means automatically installed, "p" is for absent from the system, and "c" is for removed ( some configuration are still system-wide installed ). Oh, and, "B" means there is a broken dependency, but you will guess that with the red color more than with the letter I think. Those characters also indicate the actions aptitude will do, but I think you will understand that quickly when you will have played a little with that tool. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/3e365d6d7146c3dd0545a99b48ae1...@neutralite.org
Re: I have an Openoffice question for small business.
Le 09.10.2013 23:04, Joe a écrit : On Wed, 9 Oct 2013 12:52:43 -0300 Ezequiel wrote: Thanks to all for your replies. I am actually pinning OO in order to use oldstable versions. I guess I will try to compile it an make my own repos. You were very helpfull. Bear in mind that OOo and LO use Java for various purposes, and Java is under continuous siege from the bad guys. But Java is not a dependency, it is only recommended. Those tools works fine without java. I would not even have thought half a minute to install them otherwise, and not because of security breaches in java ( which will more often be used via internet browsers, not for something like an office suite ). -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/54c30ebb9805569f919b810e93629...@neutralite.org
Re: apt-pinning, strange behavior
Le 09.10.2013 19:28, Dmitrii Kashin a écrit : berenger.mo...@neutralite.org writes: Since I had to reinstall from my last kernel error, I decided to stay with stable on that computer, but I need some softwares in less outdated versions, like development libraries or i3 ( this one is not a need but a question of comfort, I admit ), so I want to use apt-pining. I have set all packages from stable to a priority of 900 and testing packages with 500. But tzdata wants to upgrade, for an unknown reason. Certainly it wants. According to apt_preferences(5): Yes, it wants, because I did not specified the priority for the release stable-updates. This is what apt-cache policy pointed, and once fixed, my problem disappeared, and I finally understood that obvious issue. You should use priority of >=990 for the target release. In the same priority range, the package which will be installed is the one with the highest priority, so it is fine to have one set of package with 500 ( or I could take 600 or any other value ) for low priority, and the other at 900 ( or 800 or... ), so that the version with 900 will be installed against the lower one, even if the lower one is more recent. Explicitly making it to a priority of 900 for stable fixes that, but I can not understand why it is needed? You have just set this priority to the whole stable repository. This should not work at all. Maybe it will be sane to show us how you set pins? Here are the 2 versions, first the one which really works ( in the hope I did not forget something, since I have enabled stable-updates, stable/updates, stable and testing. So I am not sure about the stable/updates one. Not used to stable.): Package: * Pin: release a=stable Pin-Priority: 800 Package: * Pin: release a=stable-updates Pin-Priority: 900 Package: * Pin: release a=testing Pin-Priority: 500 Package: i3-wm i3 Pin: release a=testing Pin-Priority: 900 #i3 dependencies Package: gir1.2-glib-2.0 libc-dev-bin libc6 libc6-dev libgirepository-1.0-1 libglib2.0-0 libpango1.0-0 locales python-gi Pin: release a=testing Pin-Priority: 900 Package: clang Pin: release a=testing Pin-Priority: 900 #clang dependencies Package: libclang-common-dev libgcc1 libgomp1 libitm1 libquadmath0 libstdc++6 libobjc4 Pin: release a=testing Pin-Priority: 900 The one which with tzdata updated to testing: Package: * Pin: release a=stable Pin-Priority: 900 Package: * Pin: release a=testing Pin-Priority: 500 Package: i3-wm i3 Pin: release a=testing Pin-Priority: 900 #i3 dependencies Package: gir1.2-glib-2.0 libc-dev-bin libc6 libc6-dev libgirepository-1.0-1 libglib2.0-0 libpango1.0-0 locales python-gi Pin: release a=testing Pin-Priority: 900 Package: clang Pin: release a=testing Pin-Priority: 900 #clang dependencies Package: libclang-common-dev libgcc1 libgomp1 libitm1 libquadmath0 libstdc++6 libobjc4 Pin: release a=testing Pin-Priority: 900 PS: I think I should probably send the package-specific priorities and their dependencies into specific files in preferences.d/ but I'll do that when I'll have a real lot of packages that I need updated. 2 packages ( 3 in fact, I do not show opera here, to stay with the original situation ) can be kept in one file without making it unmaintainable. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4dff77b2e59cff8911bd3f6c405f5...@neutralite.org
Re: I have an Openoffice question for small business.
Le 10.10.2013 10:24, Joe a écrit : On Wed, 09 Oct 2013 23:21:29 +0200 berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote: Le 09.10.2013 23:04, Joe a écrit : > On Wed, 9 Oct 2013 12:52:43 -0300 > Ezequiel wrote: > >> Thanks to all for your replies. I am actually pinning OO in order >> to use oldstable versions. I guess I will try to compile it an >> make my own repos. You were very helpfull. >> > > Bear in mind that OOo and LO use Java for various purposes, and > Java is > under continuous siege from the bad guys. But Java is not a dependency, it is only recommended. Those tools works fine without java. I would not even have thought half a minute to install them otherwise, and not because of security breaches in java ( which will more often be used via internet browsers, not for something like an office suite ). As I said, I'm not a power user of most of LO, perhaps it isn't used elsewhere, but it's a dependency of Base. Despite this, I had Base installed without Java, but was unable to do much by way of connecting to data without it. I have a vague recollection that originally, OOo was written in Java which years ago was popular for writing cross-platform applications. If so, clearly LO is removing it progressively, and it may disappear from Base at some point. I do know attitude of the US Dept. of Homeland Security towards Java, and its days anywhere may be numbered. -- Joe Ah, no, I apologize, you were right. Base seems to have a hard dependency on Java, so I was really wrong. I have no idea why it depends on Java, but it is written in C++, as the debtags shows, as the rest of Libre/Open Office. To be honest, I also thought that it was written in Java until recently ( well, I think I discovered that in the beginning of the year ), but someday I said that on a forum and was instantly replied that it was written in C++. About it having be rewritten in C++ instead of Java, I do not know, I did not made any searches about that, but I strongly doubt it. C++ is as portable as Java ( just it needs to be recompiled and lacks standard portable GUI - and other features - that Java provides. But Java's standard GUI features are not the most used, as some Java dev said me. So... ). Plus, rewritten a huge... a very huge in facts, software in another language is really hard, especially if you come from a language where memory is managed by some obscure automatic mechanisms to come to language for which most of the power comes to RAII. But my doubts can be wrong ;) About Java's security problems... honestly, the only one thing which makes it true is that it is a popular and traditional language to write portable web applets. Like windows being the main target of hackers, in fact. I do not like Java, but I have learn that performance and security issues are not a programming language's problem, but a programmer's problem. Take a look in aptitude, try the games. Some are written in C or C++ and are as "beautiful" as 90's games, and they can not be run on my modern netbook. On the other side, some Java's one works perfectly. Debian really changed my mind on a lot of wrong ideas about computer sciences :) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/034dd8fbc2a22fe633b272e341588...@neutralite.org
Re: Tool for investigating dependency chains?
Le 10.10.2013 13:36, Richard Owlett a écrit : It does not tell me: A. the names of packages it recommends be also installed B. the description of those packages It does. Go on that package, and press "enter". This will open a new tab with the same info, but with the targeted package being the main one. Not sure if I am clear... I should take a look to sofwares to make screenshots of ncurses applications :p -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/8319286284dfb63e09572c1363049...@neutralite.org
Re: apt-get vs. aptitude
Le 10.10.2013 14:30, Erwan David a écrit : On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 12:47:08PM CEST, "David L. Craig" said: On 13Oct09:2153+0100, Joe wrote: > On Wed, 09 Oct 2013 13:24:57 -0500 > Richard Owlett wrote: > > > > > Being retired, I've no aspirations of being a sysadmin. > > > > > > > If you run Linux, you already are. You don't get to choose. Probably. There have been reports of parents set up on Linux platforms by children who remotely attend to the care and feeding of the box. Hopefully these parents are not deemed to be lusers by their progeny. Just say "if you have your own compuyter (whatever the OS) that nobody manages for you, you already are a sysadmin. Guys, I must disagree with that. It would mean that any linux distro is hard to maintain, and that's wrong. Plus, sysadmin have a lot more knowledge than simple users and power users. Imagine that it would mean that any people making some shitty excel formulas would be a programmer, anyone able to change a wheel on his car a mechanic, anyone able to grow something a biologist, etc... sounds fun, but not realistic at all :) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/6064429a723cd92e4d8a3ac26b13e...@neutralite.org
Re: Tool for investigating dependency chains?
Le 10.10.2013 15:02, Richard Owlett a écrit : berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote: Le 10.10.2013 13:36, Richard Owlett a écrit : It does not tell me: A. the names of packages it recommends be also installed B. the description of those packages It does. Go on that package, and press "enter". This will open a new tab with the same info, but with the targeted package being the main one. Not sure if I am clear... I should take a look to sofwares to make screenshots of ncurses applications :p Ah-ha it does do what I want - just not the way I expected. Have got to do detailed read of the documentation. Thanks You're welcome -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/60c2fb220b38750dac246ef1a9a06...@neutralite.org
Re: reinstalling Nginx & others usin apt from command line
Le 10.10.2013 19:54, Gregory Nowak a écrit : On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 06:21:55PM +0100, Brad Rogers wrote: Hello Brad, Not entirely true; Any package that has configuration files/directories in user space will have those left even after an apt-get(1) purge. So, to be sure, one has to delete those as well. $ man 1 apt-get No manual entry for apt-get in section 1 See 'man 7 undocumented' for help when manual pages are not available. The apt-get(8) man page says: "purge purge is identical to remove except that packages are removed and purged (any configuration files are deleted too)." Greg Then the man is not precise enough. Try to install a random package with userspace settings, like, say, a game. Change it's settings, purge it from the system, and reinstall it. The settings will not change. Purge only removes configuration files contained in the package, so, /etc ones. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/131a6e43114f5511a1ac7f0c1921c...@neutralite.org
Re: reinstalling Nginx & others usin apt from command line
Le 10.10.2013 20:20, Brad Rogers a écrit : On Thu, 10 Oct 2013 10:54:57 -0700 Gregory Nowak wrote: Hello Gregory, "purge purge is identical to remove except that packages are removed and purged (any configuration files are deleted too)." As has been said, the man page is imprecise. I wonder if that could justify a bug report? Speaking about that, I have no idea about what exactly does the reinstall option: simply remove and then install, or purge and then install? If, as I think, it's the first option, what is the use for that, since packages should not lose files magically? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/bc2c560e738971144df174cf36bb7...@neutralite.org
Re: which file should I download
Le 10.10.2013 22:06, Anjan Mitra a écrit : debian-7.1.0-amd64-DVD-1.iso [1] 2013-06-16 01:39 3.7G debian-7.1.0-amd64-DVD-2.iso [2] 2013-06-16 01:39 4.4G debian-7.1.0-amd64-DVD-3.iso [3] 2013-06-16 01:39 4.4G debian-update-7.1.0-amd64-DVD-1.iso [4] 2013-06-16 05:34 2.9G Links: -- [1] http://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/7.1.0/amd64/iso-dvd/debian-7.1.0-amd64-DVD-1.iso [2] http://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/7.1.0/amd64/iso-dvd/debian-7.1.0-amd64-DVD-2.iso [3] http://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/7.1.0/amd64/iso-dvd/debian-7.1.0-amd64-DVD-3.iso [4] http://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/7.1.0/amd64/iso-dvd/debian-update-7.1.0-amd64-DVD-1.iso Not a lot of description of your problem, but I'll assume you want to download an installation image. If so, then in all those files it would be debian-7.1.0-amd64-DVD-1.iso -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/d091bd6c546b6c81bbaabb3dce06e...@neutralite.org
Re: reinstalling Nginx & others usin apt from command line
Le 10.10.2013 21:59, Jerry Stuckle a écrit : On 10/10/2013 3:08 PM, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote: Le 10.10.2013 20:20, Brad Rogers a écrit : On Thu, 10 Oct 2013 10:54:57 -0700 Gregory Nowak wrote: Hello Gregory, "purge purge is identical to remove except that packages are removed and purged (any configuration files are deleted too)." As has been said, the man page is imprecise. I wonder if that could justify a bug report? Speaking about that, I have no idea about what exactly does the reinstall option: simply remove and then install, or purge and then install? If, as I think, it's the first option, what is the use for that, since packages should not lose files magically? I'm not sure what the confusion is here. Sure, it deletes all configuration files it knows about. But then I would NOT expect it to delete any user-generated files, configuration or otherwise. I would only expect it to delete what it can restore. Jerry Maybe you, since you know how it works. But, someone with no knowledge would think that it also removes userland configuration files, since it claims to remove all configuration files. To be honest, sometimes I would really like it to be able to do so :) and I could imagine ways to do that, too. For example, imagine if all softwares would respect XDG Base Directory Specification ( oh, wait, they won't, lennart participate ;) but honestly, I really would like it to be followed ) to install configuration files in $XDG_CONFIG_HOME. dpkg would simply have to check for all users with a home directory what is their XDG_CONFIG_HOME and search here the repertory to remove, in case of a purge. That does not sounds so impossible, right? Of course, there is the problem of determining where the hell that variable is defined for each users, and it would also imply that all softwares respect it, which will probably never happen. But, in my opinion, having a tool able to remove configuration files from user directories would help. A lot. Because it happens that I try some softwares, and then purge them, but I still have to find every single file they could have installed by hand. And this is *really* boring. I know that it would have it's own problems, of course, for example when you install multiple versions of the same program, or if some users want to keep their files anyway (this issue could be fixed by not effectively removing those files, but by installing a script which would ask to users if they want to keep or remove files, script which would be automatically run at their next session ). I know that it would not be so easy ( I can think about other problems that I did not mention, but I do not want to write a novel ) , but it would be doable, by someone with enough knowledge of package management and global system, and, again, if most softwares were willing to respect XDG specs. Vim, bash, xpaint, firefox, those are few examples of widely known softwares, which does not respect that spec. And for which reason? I guess there are none. And there are tons of other softwares which does not. My homedir is far more messy on Debian than on windows finally, and I clean it frequently, but I use it far more often on Debian than on Windows ( where the usages are more to use desktop, other partitions or "my documents"). Don't you think that something is wrong, here? The problem is not technical, because it's easy to do, even in C: == #define HOME_CONFIG "XDG_CONFIG_DIR" // can be used to keep windows compatibility without changing any line of code #define PROGRAM_OWN_CONFIG_DIR "/some/strange/config/dir/name/" char* user_config_dir = getenv(HOME_CONFIG); if( !user_config_dir ) exit( -1 ); unsigned short mcd_len = strlen( user_config_dir ) + strlen( LEN_OF_PROGRAM_OWN_CONFIG_DIR ) +1; char* my_config_dir = malloc( mcd_len ); if( !my_config_dir ) exit( -2 ); if( 0 == strlen( user_config_dir ) ) strncpy( my_config_dir, "~", 1 ); else strncpy( my_config_dir, user_config_dir, strlen( user_config_dir ) ); strncat( my_config_dir + strlen( my_config_dir ), PROGRAM_OWN_CONFIG_DIR, LEN_OF_PROGRAM_OWN_CONFIG_DIR ); == That's portable, standard, written in less than 5min and relatively secure ( there are still flaws there, but I am more used to C++, and it's a simple demo ). So, why not doing it? Less than 20 lines in C, less than 5 lines in C++, and probably not more in other languages. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/e823575541db7233c2f9fe85c5b8d...@neutralite.org
Re: apt-pinning, strange behavior
Le 10.10.2013 23:06, Dmitrii Kashin a écrit : berenger.mo...@neutralite.org writes: In the same priority range, the package which will be installed is the one with the highest priority, so it is fine to have one set of package with 500 ( or I could take 600 or any other value ) for low priority, and the other at 900 ( or 800 or... ), so that the version with 900 will be installed against the lower one, even if the lower one is more recent. Oh... Truely? I thought differently and was sure I am right. Maybe you are right, but in that case, how would you explain the behavior I had if a package of a priority of 500 is considered to have the same priority as a package with 900 ? ;) I just skimmed again through apt_preferences man page, but did not find such examples or explanations. Where's it documented? I must admit, that I only base my words on old readings and experimentations. It also seems logic: what would be the interest to have so wide ranges of numbers oterwise? Maybe I'm wrong, but what I have seen those days tends to prove that I am not. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/85a4a2725fc50736dcf02195d33b1...@neutralite.org
Re: reinstalling Nginx & others usin apt from command line
Le 11.10.2013 00:49, Gregory Nowak a écrit : On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 11:23:50PM +0200, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote: Maybe you, since you know how it works. But, someone with no knowledge would think that it also removes userland configuration files, since it claims to remove all configuration files. Ok, since the man page is saying one thing, and yourself and Brad are saying another, I decided to try this out. Here's what I did: [snip] Yes, I know that this is the normal behavior. It purged system-wide configuration. But, the point is, that for some people, when they read the man page, they think that it removes *all* configuration files, including the ones the application have created in userspace. Which it does not, we all agree about that. Now, the question I asked was, should the manpage be fixed to avoid any user to think that dpkg can remove all configuration files, including those which were not created by dpkg, since some applications create some config files themselves ( so, the user does not create them not manipulate them without that application's dedicated interface ) which can makes things confusing. But, yes, definitely, people with knowledge about dpkg, even as small as mine, understand that it does only remove files it have created. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/d3b78415d892ee8be81511c46...@neutralite.org
Re: reinstalling Nginx & others usin apt from command line
Le 11.10.2013 01:20, Gregory Nowak a écrit : On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 12:59:32AM +0200, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote: Yes, I know that this is the normal behavior. It purged system-wide configuration. But, the point is, that for some people, when they read the man page, they think that it removes *all* configuration files, including the ones the application have created in userspace. Which it does not, we all agree about that. Ok. What seems like common sense to some of us might not be viewed that way by others. When things becomes usual for someone, he sees them as common sense. On other subjects, some people asked me how I can not see the common sense of their actions, too, when that needed a global understanding of something I never used before. Common sense is subjective I think. I remember a show from French humorist where they were playing the role of people doing marketing. The conclusion of it was (rough translation): Do not take people as if they were stupid, but do not forget they are. It was to make people laugh, and it is quite harsh, but, it is not completely wrong, we are all unable to understand things other will. (it's hard for me to explain what I mean in English, so do not take this too seriously and be indulgent please) Finally, that's close to what I try to apply when I create a software. I try to consider the more dumb actions of the user possible, and do what I can to avoid them to make everything explode. It includes checking if the user entered characters on a field where you ask the age for example :) Now, the question I asked was, should the manpage be fixed to avoid any user to think that dpkg can remove all configuration files, including those which were not created by dpkg, since some applications create some config files themselves ( so, the user does not create them not manipulate them without that application's dedicated interface ) which can makes things confusing. Yes, the man page should probably be fixed since it could be misinterpreted. How about changing "purge is identical to remove except that packages are removed and purged (any configuration files are deleted too)." to say "purge is identical to remove except that packages are removed and purged (any configuration files created by the package at install time are deleted too). I think this would enhance, yes. Could be even better with "( any and only configuration files created by the package at install time are deleted)" so that I think it is not possible to be mistaken. But my English is not really good, so it may probably be said better. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/8d2e481bad12cbcf7c106f2e3185a...@neutralite.org
Re: reinstalling Nginx & others usin apt from command line
Le 11.10.2013 06:10, John W. Foster a écrit : I stripped every reference to evolution from the entire file system, Including hidden folders? Try this: $cd ~ $find -iname '*evolution*' At that point, if you found something, then you forgot hidden folders, so do $rm -r `find -iname '*evolution*'` to remove them. Just be careful when checking files after the 1st find, some applications could use a close name. And, of course, this only works if and only if you application used it's own name as part of folder's names where it stores stuff. Usually, they does. Usually, but I can think of iceweasel which uses .mozilla for example, and I had many examples of the same problem when I was using windows and removing things by hands. Checking the provider's name of the software is never a bad idea. purged the application as you suggested in your references, and reinstalled it. This will only remove files in /etc. We can like it or not ( I do not, but the problem is not simple ) but it is like that currently. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/e3c0dd6143b5145930630e102aeed...@neutralite.org
Re: sysadmin qualifications (Re: apt-get vs. aptitude)
Le 11.10.2013 13:03, Joel Rees a écrit : On the converse, I think it is a crime to promise (as makers of certain popular OSses do) that you can properly use a computer or other computer-based communication device without administering or managing the computer system. It is not. I can use rapid transit without taking care or understanding anything behind it. I do not even have to know that it have wheels. Same for computers. In some places, you can have access to public computers and use them for a set of operations, and people does not have to know how to do anything else on those. Another, and last one, example. Take an electric saw (I do not know the English word for that). If it is your own, you will want to avoid buying a new one when the blade is too old, but it is a choice. You could just want to use it, buy a new one when it is too old. If so, you only know how to start it and how to apply it on what you want to cut. No need to know internals. And even if you know how to change the blade, it will not mean you are an electro-mechanic guy. Eventually, it can makes you an advanced user, but nothing more (because it is better to know which kind of blade to use to cut metal, or wood, or stone). People who manage their computers themselves are not sysadmin, they are advanced users. Some of them are sysadmin, of course, but not because they maintain their own system. In fact, the problem here is: "that you can properly *use* a computer". *Use*. Which use exactly have you in mind? We're a long way from being able to build internet terminals that people can use as simply as they use a phone, and it's quite possible that it can't really be done. Terminals to Internet? Probably it is not possible, since internet is not only the http section of the www. But building terminals for people to access websites is not so hard: take a keyboard, a pointing hardware ( it can even be emulated by the keyboard ), a screen, a CPU, some RAM, a modem. Build an OS around that, add to that OS a default configuration which works by default plus a website browser, and remove the ability for user to do anything than using the browser. No window manager, no software center, etc. You have it. Of course, for me this is a nightmare, not a dream. But it is doable. You simply have to sold the item pre-configured, and you know what? ISP are able to do that. They only do not do it, because people hopefully know that Internet is a tool to enhance their computer's features, like managing files in a lot of different ways: modifying images, writing texts, etc. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/45b0ccc8f75794125500b1c294dd6...@neutralite.org
Re: Installing Cinnamon 2.0
Le 11.10.2013 19:42, Tom H a écrit : AIUI, MATE is a redo of GNOME 2 using GTK2 and Cinnamon a redo of GNOME 2 using GTK3. Will they merge at some point? Or have their interpretation and evolution of the GNOME 2 UI diverged enough for them to keep on co-existing? AFAIK, they are fork of different softwares: gnome 2 for one, gnome 3 for the other. Plus, I do not think there is any sign of will to merge. So, I doubt they'll do, because of will and or technical problems. But, to be honest, I do not know, I do not use any DE anymore, and if someday I would have to advice the use of DE to someone, that would be XFCE or LXDE. I have used them, and they offer enough features in my opinion. Plus, they are lightweight, their age can be used as a proof that they'll continue on their original line. Exactly what gnome seems to not have made ;) so when I consider it's forks... 2 forks, for 1 reason, I allow me to smile and have hard doubts about their future. And well, I do not mind at all, I'm no longer a DE user and probably will never become one anew. Except if someone make a DE built around TWM, very lightweight softwares, and no feature duplication ( it means: no other tool than the window manager would manage windows. We are far from that, even in terminals. ) My 2 cents. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/00c8dd9faac4e83279eca142d1b21...@neutralite.org
Re: Installing Cinnamon 2.0
Le 11.10.2013 19:43, Alex Moonshine a écrit : > > On Fri, 11 Oct 2013 16:50:01 +0200 > > Ralf Mardorf wrote: I'm speaking about upstream and here is one conflict: [rocketmouse@archlinux ~]$ sudo pacman -S mate-file-archiver resolving dependencies... looking for inter-conflicts... :: mate-file-archiver and file-roller are in conflict. Remove file-roller? [y/N] Sorry, but why would one need mate-file-archiver (Engrampa) and file-roller on the same machine? The former is a fork of the latter (and to all practical means just the same package under different name). Same goes for nautilus/caja, gedit/pluma, etc. I think that either you use MATE DE and Engrampa replaces file-roller for you, or, if you want to install MATE on a system that already has some other DE with file-roller installed, that you want to keep, you install mate-base package, which (I believe) includes none of extra applications (and you can go on using file-roller under MATE). Or maybe they should all depend on a meta package named, say, x-archive-manager? That would indirectly fix the problem, and give users a choice :) Otherwise, about reasons... some people uses more than 1 DE. I guess we could use the same reason, here. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/9d7ddc1cd775dfd16129a9647e1d9...@neutralite.org
Re: Installing Cinnamon 2.0
Le 11.10.2013 20:44, Tom H a écrit : On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 12:42 PM, Ralf Mardorf wrote: Have you considered NAS? No way! What's wrong with NAS to elicit such a rejection? GVFS is absolutely optional software. You only ever consider things from your limited use-case but upstream developers and distribution maintainers have to take into account the majority of users. The majority of users do not have NAS :) Especially to use them as portable hardware, I think. You've also complained in this thread and previously about compliance with green drives. I could've replied: "I only ever connect an external drive to my computer long enough to copy in and/or copy out files. Most of the people I know which uses external drives, and I speak here about drives, no small data containers, is to use, for example, music, films, and such stored on that harddrive. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/246d92331d9352f4f8265dc32a59c...@neutralite.org
Re: sysadmin qualifications (Re: apt-get vs. aptitude)
Le 11.10.2013 23:06, Brian a écrit : "are you root?" It does only means you own the system. Not that you can claim to be a sysadmin. I own my car. I am not a mechanic, but I anyway have the *authorizations* to tinker it. It's what root, or to be more precise, uid=0 means in linux OSes. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/0e7350cb30a02dbf6748b0cc73f5a...@neutralite.org
Re: sysadmin qualifications (Re: apt-get vs. aptitude)
Le 11.10.2013 23:44, Brian a écrit : On Fri 11 Oct 2013 at 23:21:07 +0200, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote: Le 11.10.2013 23:06, Brian a écrit : >"are you root?" It does only means you own the system. Not that you can claim to be a sysadmin. I own my car. I am not a mechanic, but I anyway have the *authorizations* to tinker it. It's what root, or to be more precise, uid=0 means in linux OSes. If you own a system you control it and can do whatever you like with it. You can give yourself whatever label you want (sysadmin, superuser, top dog etc) - it matters not. How about "Debian Despot"? Oh, of course, if you speak about giving yourself a label, then, fine. Take the one you want. But, it does not mean that you can claim to be a professional, or that you can say someone is a professional. Take the label you want. But if you take the label of "programmer" because you can only write a hello world, and will own the source code. But then do not be surprised if other people gives you the label of "liar". It is the same with sysadmin. You can own your computer, be only able to install softwares and use those excuses to label yourself a sysadmin. But then, other people are also free to give you the label of liar. I guess you will not like my words, but if you think that people are free to give themselves the label they want, so you must accept that other are also free to give the labels they want. Long time ago, I studied the "dark side of computer sciences", and the first things I have learn are that you can not claim to be a hacker, or elite, or... If you do so, then people will name you lamer. You are a hacker if other people recognize you as such. The truth here is simple: you are not what you want, only other people can define who you really are. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/706e569fe1ce9f5b26d2f80f8476b...@neutralite.org
Re: sysadmin qualifications (Re: apt-get vs. aptitude)
Le 12.10.2013 00:01, Paul Cartwright a écrit : On 10/11/2013 05:21 PM, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org [1] wrote: It does only means you own the system. Not that you can claim to be a sysadmin. I own my car. I am not a mechanic, but I anyway have the *AUTHORIZATIONS* to tinker it. It's what root, or to be more precise, uid=0 means in linux OSes. the difference is, you don't have a "mechanic" for Debian, you ARE the mechanic. YOU make it better ( or worse), so yes you ARE the sysadmin. your other users cannot maintain the system, they cannot update the system, they cannot destroy the system. You can update it, maintain it, destroy it, all by yourself. I think we simply disagree on what a sysadmin is. So, I'll now use a definition that I does not have created, from a source which is often considered as quite good, wikipedia: === A system administrator, or sysadmin, is a person who is responsible for the upkeep, configuration, and reliable operation of computer systems; especially multi-user computers, such as servers. === The keyword here is "multi-user", with the constraints it apply. If you manage your own computer, then, ok, you are the admin of your computer. You are not a sysadmin. That's my opinion, and I accept to discuss about it, but unfortunately, I must admit that your argument is not strong enough to convince me, and that I can not find an argument that I think you could hear. Except the authority argument I just used, which I consider as many other people as a weak one ( at least I was able to quote, and not simply say "I know someone which...". Better than usual in that kind of arguments ). -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/c12e6f3aa2e6a3e6a814dbf81e3c8...@neutralite.org
Re: Installing Cinnamon 2.0
Le 12.10.2013 00:46, Tom H a écrit : On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 3:14 PM, wrote: Le 11.10.2013 20:44, Tom H a écrit : On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 12:42 PM, Ralf Mardorf wrote: You've also complained in this thread and previously about compliance with green drives. I could've replied: "I only ever connect an external drive to my computer long enough to copy in and/or copy out files. Most of the people I know which uses external drives, and I speak here about drives, no small data containers, is to use, for example, music, films, and such stored on that harddrive. Did you notice the "could've"? Ermm... no, sorry :) did not noticed :/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/246a9662066fa5c8e25f9b2224b12...@neutralite.org
Re: sysadmin qualifications (Re: apt-get vs. aptitude)
Le 12.10.2013 02:24, Jerry Stuckle a écrit : On 10/11/2013 6:22 PM, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote: Le 12.10.2013 00:01, Paul Cartwright a écrit : On 10/11/2013 05:21 PM, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org [1] wrote: It does only means you own the system. Not that you can claim to be a sysadmin. I own my car. I am not a mechanic, but I anyway have the *AUTHORIZATIONS* to tinker it. It's what root, or to be more precise, uid=0 means in linux OSes. the difference is, you don't have a "mechanic" for Debian, you ARE the mechanic. YOU make it better ( or worse), so yes you ARE the sysadmin. your other users cannot maintain the system, they cannot update the system, they cannot destroy the system. You can update it, maintain it, destroy it, all by yourself. I think we simply disagree on what a sysadmin is. So, I'll now use a definition that I does not have created, from a source which is often considered as quite good, wikipedia: === A system administrator, or sysadmin, is a person who is responsible for the upkeep, configuration, and reliable operation of computer systems; especially multi-user computers, such as servers. === The keyword here is "multi-user", with the constraints it apply. If you manage your own computer, then, ok, you are the admin of your computer. You are not a sysadmin. That's my opinion, and I accept to discuss about it, but unfortunately, I must admit that your argument is not strong enough to convince me, and that I can not find an argument that I think you could hear. Except the authority argument I just used, which I consider as many other people as a weak one ( at least I was able to quote, and not simply say "I know someone which...". Better than usual in that kind of arguments ). Wikipedia is hardly what I would call "reliable". Did not I said "often" ? If all you have for an "authority" is Wikipedia, then your "argument" is not strong enough to convince me. And I admitted it myself, that it was a weak one. I think we simply disagree on the meaning of the word, and maybe because of the fact that I am not a native or even good English speaker, I reached my limits on this discussion. That was the most important thing I said in my previous mail. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/fc1e19313b89cf06cc4def47aea41...@neutralite.org
gnome depends on adblock-plus
Well, as I claimed more than once here, I am not a DE user, but I have read today something ( on linuxfr ) which surprise me a lot, and it seem that reading is true, from : gnome depends on xul-ext-adblock-plus. I always thought that dependencies were here for technical reasons, and I can not imagine how a complete DE could depend on a web browser extension, and it becomes worse when the extension in question have side-effects on important subjects like neutrality. So, I would like to know if someone knows why this dependency exists, instead of a recommendation or suggestion. Without the problem of ideology, on which I do not want to go, so I'll stay on technical point. Having gnome depending on an iceweasel extension, which in turn depends on iceweasel does simply seems stupid, for more than one reason: _ gnome, or even iceweasel should only suggest, or recommend, extensions. The web browser does not need it to work fine. _ gnome should depends on iceweasel, which in turn should be linked to some extensions. There is a bug report, here ( http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=689858 ) which is one year old. I am not familiar with the debian bug tracking system, and am only reporting here a link provided to me through a forum, but I have seen no reply of gnome's maintainer, so I am asking here to know if there is a technical reason for that dependency, of something which makes gnome still depending hardly on that firefox's only extension, still being here after a year (the messages in the bug report are here since 2012). Someone mentioned that someone should report that to the technical comity, but... I do not really feel like I am well placed to do this, so I am asking to userlist if someone knows the reason behind the non-fixing of the issue. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/91ce1967d913a10374a1943a0c67d...@neutralite.org
Re: gnome depends on adblock-plus
Le 12.10.2013 10:58, Marko Randjelovic a écrit : "One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie." :) apt-get install gnome-applets gnome-screenshot gnome-session gnome-panel gnome-terminal gedit gdm3 file-roller gnome-icon-theme As I said, I am no longer a DE user, but before leaving the wonderful world of automatically installed DE through one package, I was using XFCE, and at a moment I noticed that I never used some applications, so I found a way to remove them: do not installing meta-package(1) was the solution. But it does not change that a meta-package have a strange dependency. More important, it is the gnome package. The one which is automatically installed by a default installation of Debian. Here, anew, I am not directly concerned, since I build my Debian from only the strict minimum number of packages(2)... Notes: 1: In fact, I think that meta-packages should only have recommendations and suggestions, since they are automatically installed by a default Debian configuration. This would not change the default behavior, while it would provide tinkerers more freedom and flexibility. After all, by not being real softwares or features, they should not be able to have hard dependencies, because there is no *technical reality* behind that. Only political choices, and I do not think that a package management should take care of the politic side of things. This should be the admin's problem ( I did not said sysadmin ;) ). 2: plus some packages which are not vital at all, like cron, which I usually remove. I do not think it should be installed when you choose to have the strict minimum system. But this is a minor issue which is not the one I want to discuss here. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/3adacd1e405c7f44ea2f8e9d2d7b4...@neutralite.org
Re: sysadmin qualifications (Re: apt-get vs. aptitude)
Le 12.10.2013 13:50, Ralf Mardorf a écrit : On Sat, 2013-10-12 at 06:19 -0400, Paul Cartwright wrote: don't you think most home use "single-user" systems have 2 people ?? Germany has become a society of singles, solo parents and of people who live in relationships, but with separated households. Even in Europe it's likely different for meridional nations. True. We are neighbors (in term of country, I mean) and I have some difficulties to imagine a family where people have each their own house. Thanks for info, it is a quite interesting thing to know. In France, when two persons form a couple, they usually start at a moment (duration varies of course) or another to live in the same house and start sharing their material possessions as well (this is only to confirm that it differs greatly in Europe, it seems to be the opposite as Germany and we share frontiers and history). About the number of phones being greater than the number of people, I could have said that it could be made by the fact than people needs professional and private phones, but it is not true for all jobs. Could you explain me the use of more than 1 phone per person? (just pure curiosity, I try to keep my mind open, as much as possible. I feel like it becomes harder with the time.) ok, then it becomes a multi-user-network, however, I suspect that here most "single-user" systems do _not_ have 2 people. It is a particular kind multi-user-network, at least how I understood what you described, where everyone have the same role. LAN parties (1) are usually made without a real DHCP server, with "hard-coded" IP addressees. There could also be a configuration of a couple both using their own computer in the same room, but it seem to conflicts with previous statements. 1: of course, a DHCP can helps, and I have seen those made by an association starting to buy and configure dedicated hardware. But even then, the last time I went there they had not setup a DHCP. Windows is able to build a network without IP conflicts very well, in default configurations. I strongly doubt that Debian would be, but, of course, there is no DHCP daemon in default installations of end-user Debian systems. Plus, even if everyone had a DHCP, some magic would have to be made to make them able to discuss about which computer should take which address. Magic which is already present in Windows XP (not sure about more recent ones) PS: I have split your comment to extract a part of it, I hope I not have moved things out of context. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/65274fb96f2258502aa74a48a8338...@neutralite.org
RE: Installing Cinnamon 2.0
Le 12.10.2013 14:04, Mark Allums a écrit : I'm not nagging about you. My concern is to nag about recommending a third party repository, that is known to cause issues. If the OP does like Cinnamon, then IMO the OP should use the official packages to ensure that it's as stable as possible and not to switch to Mate from a third party repository. If the OP needs a bug fix or a new feature of Cinnamon 2.0, it might be worse the effort to build it from source. The point of mentioning MATE was in context with adding MATE to Debian. Our point was, there are only minor problems with that happening, and they should be solvable fairly easily within a short period of time (i.e., in the time between releases of Stable). This problem is not MATE specific. All DEs in Debian have it: in Debian stable, the one that I am now running on the computer with which I now use to work, XFCE is only at version 4.8, but IIRC XFCE4.10 was released before Debian started the freeze. MATE could go in Debian, if one of it's users accept to become it's maintainer. If it was so easy, then I can only guess that MATE's users finally do not care that much to have it into official repo, and should accept that other people uses that as an argument that it *might* give problems. Because, yes, 3rd party repo are possible, but are not supported by Debian. And, things which *might* give problems which are not supported by the OS's maintainers made things harder for people not willing to deal with problems. When you start to have more than one team responsible for the state of a system, and when a problem appear, you usually have annoying games of ping-pong. In short: if you are so sure that MATE is fine, and want to advertise it a lot, stop whining about Debian which refuses it, and start the way to integrate it into Debian. I think the dev team will be happy to have more manpower and provide more DE choice. MATE is usable NOW, and it's mainly an irrational attachment to Gnome that prevents it, not any real problems with MATE. People are abandoning Gnome 3 in droves. Most are turning to XFCE, I think largely because it is already in Debian. If MATE were in Debian, a large contingent of those people would use MATE if it were available, I think, because most of them were using GNOME 2 before. And what about those people being ancient gnome users because gnome is the default, and not because gnome is better (1) ? Maybe the problems they had with gnome encouraged them to try other DEs, like KDE, XFCE and LXDE present in Debian, and from that base, choosing the one which fit best their needs. Perhaps they would not return to gnome2 know, because they finally think that it is inferior for their uses to XFCE? Notice that, as you, I made hypothetic assertions based on the wind to make other's choices and opinions fitting my needs without asking them. Aka, that XFCE is better than gnome, which I do not truly think. They're simply different. 1: I was never able to understand what people can find to gnome, even the gnome2 DE. Matter of taste, of course. KDE was better suited for me, but shared a problem: too monolithic. So only XFCE and LXDE in Debian were able to satisfy me at start. Now, even them are not correct enough for me (but I still use some LXDE apps). -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/600adc2cc45525b11320812969d2d...@neutralite.org
Re: sysadmin qualifications (Re: apt-get vs. aptitude)
Le 12.10.2013 15:16, Jerry Stuckle a écrit : On 10/12/2013 7:50 AM, Ralf Mardorf wrote: On Sat, 2013-10-12 at 06:19 -0400, Paul Cartwright wrote: don't you think most home use "single-user" systems have 2 people ?? Germany has become a society of singles, solo parents and of people who live in relationships, but with separated households. Even food industry makes huge profit by selling convenience foods for singles. Here you can buy 3 packed salami slices. Perhaps we have more single persons who own several computers, than several people sharing one computer. It seems to differ from nation to nation. Some are "single nations" others are "family nations". I don't know statistics, but IIRC in Germany we've got more smart phones, than citizens. I've got the impression that most people in Germany have a smart phone, tablet PC, netbook or laptop and they don't share it with somebody else. Sharing a laptop sometimes happens, sharing smart phones, tablet PCs and netbooks not that often. Desktop PCs are often used for a special purpose, e.g. for gaming and I know people who play games with other people, but even if they sit in the same room, they don't use one computer, but connect their computers instead ... ok, then it becomes a multi-user-network, however, I suspect that here most "single-user" systems do _not_ have 2 people. Even in Europe it's likely different for meridional nations. Regards, Ralf Ralf, I've seen you give similar arguments before. Let me give you a hint here. Most of the people in the world don't care about what Germans do in their own homes. Germany isn't the world; in fact, it isn't even in the top 10 population wise. Your comments about what they do is completely immaterial. That's not to say I don't appreciate *MOST* Germans; I've visited there three times and enjoyed every visit immensely. Jerry I think that the point in his message was to show that it is not because the usage in your, or mine, or his, country is something that this use is the usage of the majority. Of course, I may be wrong. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/8904771e0add3d822171583685771...@neutralite.org
RE: Installing Cinnamon 2.0
Le 12.10.2013 15:42, Mark Allums a écrit : I might could change the typos in docs to become different typos in different places. I can't develop for MATE, it's not part of my skill set. I will encourage other people to get involved, that much, I can do. Package maintenance is not really a programming task AFAIK. It, of course, need you to be able to compile stuff, but not to write source code :) > People are abandoning Gnome 3 in droves. Most are turning to XFCE, I > think largely because it is already in Debian. If MATE were in > Debian, a large contingent of those people would use MATE if it were > available, I think, because most of them were using GNOME 2 before. And what about those people being ancient gnome users because gnome is the default, and not because gnome is better (1) ? Maybe the problems they had with gnome encouraged them to try other DEs, like KDE, XFCE and LXDE present in Debian, and from that base, choosing the one which fit best their needs. Perhaps they would not return to gnome2 know, because they finally That's possible. The point is: 1. Gnome 3 isn't desirable to many, Yes, someone involved in computer news can not ignore that, even if he does not use a DE, same for windows 8 :) In fact, I like this, because it always make me laugh. By trying to run on the last fashion (not sure about the wording) things are just collapsing. I am really happy to have had the curiosity to search alternatives, instead of having to be stuck with disgusting stuff. 2. Many have stated a preference for Gnome 2, and all aren't completely satisfied with the alternatives offered. XFCE is regarded by many as the best of a bad lot. This wasn't stated implicitly; I assumed it was implied by context, but that was a mistake. But MATE is a part of that bad lot, is not it? And honestly, of course you will never find gnome in XFCE. It's why XFCE is XFCE, not a 3rd clone of gnome. (or a 1st considering it's age) Goals are not the same, they are to keep something as lightweight as possible, but deeply integrated with other features of the desktop, unlike LXDE which wants to have only independent softwares, which can interact easily between them, but does not have a dependency. Different philosophy, where the gnome one seems to be to always provide everything possible, but only if it follows dev's opinion of what is nice. But my point was, that maybe so many of those people would have be happy with XFCE's philosophy at start? People on windows stayed with XP for a long time after all, with it's "poor" but "efficient" GUI. And they now refuse to move to w8. (I know, it's not windows the subject here, but the analogy is not unrelated I think) And those dev, I can not blame them. It's an open source software, where people makes stuff for themselves (not paid, AFAIK), which can possibly be useful for other people. That's the danger of things built by volunteers, and that's why it's so sad that so many people forgot the UNIX philosophy. Ancient gnome's users now have to maintain multiple forks for all the software suite. That's possible. I never said all XFCE users wanted MATE. Good to read it explicitly. My main goal is to get the point across that, like others have said, the prejudice against MATE is strong. I believe it's mainly religious, and that the practical reasons against it are all solvable. I do not feel as if I were religious. If DEs were a religion, then I would be an apostate. (heh... sounds like a nice DE's name if someday I wanted to start my own) My interventions are more to say that, in short, I do not think that people should advertise that much about Mate on debian's user-list while those issues are not fixed: _ absent from official repos (with all the problems it *might* provide, considering installations which *could* be more complex than it seems) _ OP did not asked about which DE to use (people which want to use cinnamon often comes from gnome, and so must know about mate) I hope I made my point more clear. It's too big, and it's just not something that appeals to me. Agree. I think the same about mainstream DEs, in general. And I do not consider XFCE as a mainstream DE, even if it seem it could become thanks to gnome3. If a different paradigm were able to enter the mainstream DEs, it would really be a nice thing for DE users. "berenger.mo...@neutralite.org, debian-user@lists.debian.org" You should really fix your mail configuration :) (I do not really mind, but that could annoy other people) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/57072640062d64840f96ca90a5f39...@neutralite.org
Re: pcmanfm no window/gui, one user only
Le 13.10.2013 13:44, Tazman Deville a écrit :
On Fri, Sep 27, 2013 at 08:11:10PM +0200, Tony Baldwin wrote:
Friends,
For some reason, when I try to use pcmanfm as my user, I can not.
I can start it as other users on the system, or with gksu or sudo,
but not for my user.
So it must be a configuration problem, or other users would have the
same problem.
You could try a diff between your configuration and another user ( do
not only compare pcmanfm's files, it could be related to other stuff ).
Or a longer but reliable technique:
1) move all your configuration files into another directory, so that
the system won't be able to find them.
2) Run pcmanfm.
3) if it works, move 1 configuration file from the temp directory you
made to it's original place. If it does not, move it to another
directory (say, conf_problem, for example).
4) go to 2 until you still have files into the temporary directory.
5) Take a look at all files in conf_problem, and read them to
understand what could be problematic. If you do not understand, then
integrate their content bloc per bloc, as you did for files.
This is the desperate solution I use, when everything failed. It's long
and boring, but always worked for me. Using diff (or meld, which is
probably smarter since it is an interactive application, not a simple
program. For comparing a lot of data, diff is not the right tool for me.
Simply my opinion.) can give you a faster understanding
Or, really, what happens is, it seems to start (can find processes
and kill them),
but no window appears. It seems to hang.
I tried to use gdb, but get no debug information.
What happens there is the whole thing (gdb and pcmanfm) hangs,
doing nothing, until I kill pcmanfm again, and gdb tells me nothing.
You need pcmanfm-dbg to have symbols, it might help. However, I have
never tried it myself.
Also, you will need to put a breakpoint before running, or will need to
manually interrupt application's workflow ( I have no idea about how to
do that, but I know it is possible since some frontends seems to be able
to do that)
But I honestly doubt that you will find anything interesting this way.
Maybe if you compile it yourself, at least you could have the source
code when debugging, which will give you more precise hints about where
it have a problem.
When I run it from terminal, likewise, I find no errors, nothing.
Just hangs (even if I run the command with pcmanfm &, it just hangs
the
terminal).
Sadly, it does not seem to have a verbose mode.
Yes, also, of course, I have killalled any such processes several
times
before trying to start it again.
Several times is not useful, if it does not work at start, it won't
work until the problem is here. At least for such "simple" programs.
I mean by simple, that it does not have to use lot of external info,
only filesystem and user's action, when it runs. Speaking about
filesystem, do you have a different partition than other users? Do you
use cryptography? Or other file-related voodoo magic? That would not be
very usual, but who knows...
I've also tried with other WMs (I use openbox as a standalone, but
have
also now tried with LXDE and with wmii, and still no joy. Have no
other
WMs on the system at this time).
This is on wheezy.
Again, if it works with a WM for other users, it should work with the
same for you. So the problem is obviously not the WM.
I've even tried replacing my conf files in
~/.config/pcmanfm/{default,LXDE}/pcmanfm.conf
with the files from another user (and chowning them to me, of
course),
to determine if there were something amiss in my config files,
but, alas, this too proved unproductive.
I don't know what else to do.
It may be a problem made by other configuration files. Like a gtk
theme. No problem with other application? It could give you some hints.
--
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Re: sysadmin qualifications (Re: apt-get vs. aptitude)
Le 13.10.2013 15:40, Joel Rees a écrit : On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 7:11 AM, wrote: [...] if you think that people are free to give themselves the label they want, so you must accept that other are also free to give the labels they want. Long time ago, I studied the "dark side of computer sciences", and the first things I have learn are that you can not claim to be a hacker, or elite, or... If you do so, then people will name you lamer. You are a hacker if other people recognize you as such. There is a difference between the three words. Of course. Elite is something that truly elite people do not try to be. Nor do they care if they are called such. That's the irony of "l33+". Hacker is, again, not something you try to be. Either you hack or you hesitate. People (like me) who tend to talk tend not to hack so much. System administrator is actually a role that needs to be filled. The truth here is simple: you are not what you want, only other people can define who you really are. Which I can acknowledge is relevant about "elite hackers", but I think it's missing the point about system administrators. If you (the general "you") own hardware that doesn't have a system administrator, you need to fix that situation. Maybe it means you need to step into the role. Being able to fit the role for minor and simple tasks does not makes you able to do the whole role. Installing OSes and applications in a end-user way is quite trivial. sysadmin is, for me and other (I hope), someone which is of course able to do those minor tasks, but also to manage really more difficult ones. Like installing OSes and applications automatically on more than one computer, depending on the use of that computer (programming, writing for the boss, taking care of money, etc). For example, a windows sysadmin will need to understand how active directory works. In other things. This is really more complex than the basic usage. Anyway, I think the problem we really have in this discussion is that we do not use same words for same things. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/9658a9f886e9b9ccd3e039d49ab02...@neutralite.org
Re: sysadmin qualifications (Re: apt-get vs. aptitude)
Le 13.10.2013 14:41, Joel Rees a écrit : On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 6:21 AM, wrote: Le 11.10.2013 23:06, Brian a écrit : "are you root?" It does only means you own the system. Not that you can claim to be a sysadmin. I own my car. I am not a mechanic, but I anyway have the *authorizations* to tinker it. It's what root, or to be more precise, uid=0 means in linux OSes. In some countries, owning a car does not authorize you to tinker with it. I did not known that. Not even changing a wheel or repairing motor, direction? Sounds strange to me. Here we have rights to tinker with our stuff, but to be authorized to use it on public space you need the vehicle to fit some conditions. Changing a motor to have a more powerful one or adding passenger places which were not originally thought are good examples. If you do some of those "tinkering", then you have to make a check (not yourself, of course, but by an organization. I do not know a lot more about that.) Many who are the defacto admin for their system(s) do not claim to be a sysadmin. But they are still the only admin the system has. I have no idea about how it works in other countries, but in France, when the enterprise is big enough, sysadmins does not take care of single systems. That job is left to people with less qualifications. Sysadmin has multiple meanings, and possession of a piece of paper is, frankly, one of the less meaningful meanings I can think of. Could not agree more. Sadly French guys seems to love those damned pieces of paper. It is quite problematic for self-learners (as I). Sometimes I think that if I had better english skills I could try to work in other countries. (I still plan to take the LPIC level 2 when I have some extra money.) But being able to install and update a debian box is part of what gets tested in the LPIC exams. If you can get a debian box up and a Fedora box up, if you can read a shell script and have some idea what's going on, if you can set apache up, if you can fiddle with your X server, that's most of a passing grade on the LPIC level 1, and then you can be a Jr. Sysadmin on paper. You are right. But only (so, not being able to understand scripts) being able to install your debian box, and then to add it some softwares does not mean you could be a sysadmin. (Well, there are a few more things you want to get down, too. Permissions basics, basics of TCP-IP, SSH and such, but you generally pick those up while you're learning how to install the system and packages.) I wonder if I could pass that test. 1st level does not seems so hard when I read you. How many does it costs? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/b14a12e57f47953f6204e62ce51df...@neutralite.org
Re: sysadmin qualifications (Re: apt-get vs. aptitude)
Le 13.10.2013 20:41, Chris Bannister a écrit : On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 12:11:01AM +0200, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote: >If you own a system you control it and can do whatever you like >with it. >You can give yourself whatever label you want (sysadmin, >superuser, top >dog etc) - it matters not. How about "Debian Despot"? Oh, of course, if you speak about giving yourself a label, then, fine. Take the one you want. But, it does not mean that you can claim to be a professional, or that you can say someone is a professional. Nowhere has anyone said that administering your own system makes you a professional system administrator. In my mind, sysadmin is a term to qualify professionals, or people able to take that role on real organizations, not simply on the family level. (1) Take the label you want. But if you take the label of "programmer" because you can only write a hello world, and will own the source code. But then do not be surprised if other people gives you the label of "liar". WTF! What is this "label" business? Do qualifications exist in your country? Of course they do. And they are regarded like if they were everything. The problem is, that they mean almost nothing in reality. Someone with a high qualification is not necessarily better than people without any. When someone applies for a job, whatever "label" they give themselves doesn't matter a hoot, if they don't have the necessary experience/qualifications then they won't get the job. A quite simplistic vision. Is the level of corruption in your country an issue in this regard? I can not judge corruption levels, but, for example, if you have a friend which works somewhere, it can become suddenly easier to work there, if he have a good reputation and talk for you. Another example if is your friend (or family member, of course) represent a huge client of an enterprise, it can help too. You will be paid according to your qualifications, of course, and for some works you will need those qualifications and/or experience anyway, but it makes things easier. Easier does not means automatic, of course. It is the same with sysadmin. You can own your computer, be only able to install softwares and use those excuses to label yourself a sysadmin. But then, other people are also free to give you the label of liar. Don't confuse "role" and "profession/career". A person can be a weekend mechanic (role) but not be a mechanic (profession/career). (1) In the sysadmin role, there is much more than simply install things. Most people I know do not even upgrade their systems, if the system does not do it by default. Luckily, windows have automatic updates. Still, most people I know installs lot of crap, without understanding anything about that. Sometimes, they do not even understand that they are installing something. How could I consider those people as sysadmin? It would be an insult to the real ones. It is exactly like considering the 1st guy able to "build" an excel file with 3 formulas make by the software (you know, when you ask it to interpret your actions to make a formula, which can result in more "if-then-else" that the software can show... I have seen that, it really exists. I had to use gnumeric to be able to see the entire formula, and to paste it in a real text editor to understand it...), and call him programmer. Or to say that someone only able to change his car's oil with the oil someone gave him/her (so, not being able to check if it is the right oil considering the motor and the temperature of where he/she lives) is a mechanic. Yes, that person would be able to take very minor, trivial parts of the role, but not the whole role. Really, maintaining your tools is part of their usage. So I would name people able to install his system a user. Maybe advanced user, depending on the mood and the guy. Not an admin. I'm not a mechanic. I'm a car user. I'm not a sysadmin, I am a computer user (well, not strictly true since I do some programming) The truth here is simple: you are not what you want, only other people can define who you really are. That is very sad that you think this way. I think it's how things work. People can want to be something a lot, being sysadmin or electrician or whatever, they won't become one by simple will. They need to work to become something. By work, I do not mean have a job, of course. And if you effectively *are* something but nobody recognize you, then I do not think you will think to be one yourself. At least, it is my opinion, and I can not see why it is sad. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/bd7db744fa325a368ad08d7bb6f2b...@neutralite.org
Re: Installing Cinnamon 2.0
Le 13.10.2013 23:23, Bob Proulx a écrit : Mark Allums wrote: Ralf Mardorf wrote: > I don't nag about endless lines, > ... > It's not the end of the world, but unfavourable when you argument about > not running into issues with your computer, while causing issues for the > list, when you're using Windows, > ... > IOW you might not experience issues with your computer, with Mate and/or > Windows, but you at least cause issues when using Windows. I believe it is _possible_ to use Windows without causing problems. In theory anyway. But it is definitely very much harder to do so. In practice too. When I was a windows user, I did not gave problems to other people. At least, in the last years when I had enough knowledge :) This has nothing to do with Windows. You need to set your MUA to use word wrap. Stop bitching about Windows and fix your MUA. Negative. This is controlled by the sender. If you want your text to be word wrapped by the reader then the sender is obliged to set format=flowed. Outlook has long been wrongly sending long lined messages without using that setting. But it is wrong. Bob Or simply do not use HTML. I do not format my mails, I simply write them in plain text, and let something doing it. It seems to be ok for readers? ( this mail is a 3 line one, seen on my screen. And because this one is automatically wrapped). I believe it can be achieved with outlook or whatever crappy client you use. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/14546d05d3850e1b2b458d82306cb...@neutralite.org
Re: apt-get vs. aptitude
Le 12.10.2013 18:10, msl09 a écrit : Oh I have fond memories of aptitude breaking my system. Once it suggested me to remove most of my system, including apt, I thought it was going to upgrade it so I confirmed it. I had to reinstall apt from the debian packages website. That's why I do not use simple CLI tools to manage my system. They just fail to show important stuff, by flooding a lot of informations. Using aptitude in it's ncurse mode would have prevented such a PEBCAK error, because updates and removal are shown with different colors. But, it definitely is a user's... no, sorry, a root's error. A root should not act or think like a user. (damn, outside of linux context, that phrase really means nothing...) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1d4dcb83ee2bee862ae59cd20e3c5...@neutralite.org
Re: apt-get vs. aptitude
Le 13.10.2013 04:18, green a écrit : Tom H wrote at 2013-10-12 18:40 -0500: I suspect that the problem's in the examples above are simply PEBKAC. I use aptitude, and find it to be *more* useful than apt because of its *interactive* dependency resolver. Probably if people have trouble with aptitude it is because the package selection scoring (which is configurable) is not quite perfect for all cases and they do not know about the interactive resolver (normally accessed with `e`) when a package is marked as "broken". The resolver allows the user to mark a particular suggestion of the resolver (eg. "remove gnome") as *rejected* (`r`). The resolver will never suggest that action again and will usually soon find an appropriate action, or that there is no possible action to satisfy both the user and dependencies. This feature of aptitude is somewhat more useful to me because I have some extra repositories enabled beside Debian stable (I also use pinning). I love aptitude, but I really would like to be able to disable that solver. It makes aptitude slow when you are solving issues by yourself. What I like with aptitude is the ncurse interface, with it's colors to show package's states, the preview, and to be able to browse in repo to find the package which fit your needs more than the others (debtags is nice for that). -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/70e96382252dfcdce184cec1ed269...@neutralite.org
Re: sysadmin qualifications (Re: apt-get vs. aptitude)
Le 14.10.2013 10:37, Joe a écrit : On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 07:53:50 +1300 Chris Bannister wrote: On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 09:19:18PM +0100, Joe wrote: > > though most include routers and other > > useless stuff. > > ..when it is normally customary to refer to them as routers. > Pedants might call them modem-routers, but nobody else does. Um, you can get routers without a modem, so the difference is important and not just pedantry! Yes. I know that as well, having two myself. But I am unusual in that respect, as exceedingly few homes or small-to-medium size businesses have any need for even one. In the large majority of networks, 'router' is taken to mean the (A)DSL modem-router-DNS-server-DHCP-server-firewall-etc that plugs into the telephone line. And which does the interface between 2 networks. This one being the most important role from the end-user point of view, I think that the word router is good enough for them. I know I wont teach that to anyone here, but modems are not computing stuff, at all. They are simply here to transform numeric signals to analogical ones, and vice versa. I wonder why someone would explicitly call the boxes "router-modem"... It would be like calling PC: computer-screen-mouse-keyboard-windows ( or linux, this one was for the trolling). Nobody does, because it is obvious that the computer will need some interfaces with humans. For routers, it is quite obvious that it will need to be able to communicate with networks it is connected to, so really no use for the modem word here. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/8b1b1851c8319dc2e96f97976940b...@neutralite.org
Re: apt-get vs. aptitude
Le 13.10.2013 19:44, Frank McCormick a écrit : On 13/10/13 01:02 PM, Chris Bannister wrote: On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 01:10:14PM -0300, msl09 wrote: Oh I have fond memories of aptitude breaking my system. Once it suggested me to remove most of my system, including apt, I thought it was going to upgrade it so I confirmed it. I had to reinstall apt from the debian packages website. In this new installation I gave it another try but when it started suggesting very weird plans(like remove all gnome packages) ... It seems like aptitude has gotten a lot smarter lately. :) Not this morning it wasn't. Aptitude has been refusing to do a full upgrade on my Jessie system for the past two weeks because it said it needed xorg-video-abi-12 but it said it is not installable. Well, not so. I tried running Synaptic this morning and it had no problem finding what it needed and installing it. I still don't understand what the difference was but Synaptic did what aptitude said it couldn't do. What could be the difference ? Does Synaptic not use the same repo source files aptitude uses? Cheers Did you tried synaptic just after aptitude, without updating the package list? If not, then maybe the package which gave you problems with aptitude was added by that update. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/e2b253c0735db78aa50ac87bf1d8e...@neutralite.org
Re: Installing Cinnamon 2.0
Le 14.10.2013 15:29, Ralf Mardorf a écrit : On Mon, 2013-10-14 at 15:21 +0200, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote: Or simply do not use HTML. Endless line, for Evolution available by selecting "Preformatted": This has nothing to do with HTML, I can format my emails using plain text too, HTML is completely unneeded to do this. Automatic line break after 72 signs, Evolution calls this "Normal": This has nothing to do with HTML, I can format my emails using plain text too, HTML is completely unneeded to do this. Now that you say it, it's obvious. I was simply thinking that HTML was the source of the problem, because I only noticed such problems with HTML mails. Was a stupid reasoning. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/c1cc8f7885e3f09cb6e809ca0e26a...@neutralite.org
Re: Linux Professional Institute Certification (Re: sysadmin qualifications (Re: apt-get vs. aptitude))
Le 14.10.2013 17:01, Joel Rees a écrit : I'm pretty sure the LPI site is translated into French, too. Yep. I have absolutely no problem with English... at least when it is written :) my speaking is probably ugly, since I can rarely practice it. Check it out: http://www.lpi-francophonie.org/ < snip > The English site is here: http://www.lpi.org/ Thanks. I will take a look at that. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/560e4d38d7301f48a2a654899...@neutralite.org
Re: apt-get vs. aptitude
Le 14.10.2013 16:38, Frank McCormick a écrit : On 14/10/13 09:52 AM, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote: Le 13.10.2013 19:44, Frank McCormick a écrit : On 13/10/13 01:02 PM, Chris Bannister wrote: On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 01:10:14PM -0300, msl09 wrote: Oh I have fond memories of aptitude breaking my system. Once it suggested me to remove most of my system, including apt, I thought it was going to upgrade it so I confirmed it. I had to reinstall apt from the debian packages website. In this new installation I gave it another try but when it started suggesting very weird plans(like remove all gnome packages) ... It seems like aptitude has gotten a lot smarter lately. :) Not this morning it wasn't. Aptitude has been refusing to do a full upgrade on my Jessie system for the past two weeks because it said it needed xorg-video-abi-12 but it said it is not installable. Well, not so. I tried running Synaptic this morning and it had no problem finding what it needed and installing it. I still don't understand what the difference was but Synaptic did what aptitude said it couldn't do. What could be the difference ? Does Synaptic not use the same repo source files aptitude uses? Cheers Did you tried synaptic just after aptitude, without updating the package list? If not, then maybe the package which gave you problems with aptitude was added by that update. Immediately afterward. I still don't understand it...then again after using Linux for 10+ years...there are a lot of things I still don't understand :) Cheers Hum... are recommended packages automatically installed by both softwares in your configuration? It may be the reason, if aptitude tries to upgrade something which recommend a 2nd package, which depends on the non-available package, so the recommended package is broken and you need to fix the breakage. If synaptic does not, then the recommended package is not installed, and so not broken. I do not really know, since I usually fix errors myself, by freezing or purging packages (I see no real interest into simple removal) which cause the problem... but I am really curious :) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/387fc00cab4b4aaa905ad90179d3e...@neutralite.org
Re: who could take the time to figure out how to contact linux ? so complicated !
Le 14.10.2013 21:37, Konrad Neitzel a écrit : Hi! On Mon, 2013-10-14 at 13:57 -0500, Catherine Gramze wrote: We need to know first if Larry has a successfully running Debian installation, and if so, is it Wheezy, Jessie, Squeeze or Sid? I think Larry needs some help to modify his sources.list file to include the non-free repository. I know any Debian installation I have done does not include the non-free repository by default. Once he has that done he can use synaptic to update and then retry to install Flash from there. Note that it can be asked at installation time, if you do not use the default "question level". In expert mode, it will ask you if you want to enable contrib and/or non-free. I think that behavior is strange: people who use the expert mode are able to modify the sources.list file, but obviously people who are doing their 1st debian install are not, and they will not select the expert install. So, Larry: there should be a file /etc/apt/sources.list on your Debian computer. This file will have the ftp and http addresses your computer uses to find the software that is prepackaged to run correctly on your system. Can you find this file? The non-free part is not required because the flashplugin-nonfree package is inside the contrib part. (As it is written inside the wiki!) With kind regards, Konrad contrib and non-free repos are not enabled by default installation, so the problem is the same :) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/18c85300ec8c03cfa3c80e1f1ac5d...@neutralite.org
Re: apt-get upgrade (security packages)
Le 14.10.2013 22:11, Pol Hallen a écrit : I can't everytime do updates from main repository because many packages of this server are patched. Using pinning for all of your packages is a solution, but I would not call it the easiest one. Why not simply freezing them in aptitude/apt-*/dpkg? For aptitude, I use it with the ncurse interface, so I do not know how to do that in command line. You will use the '=' key to freeze the package you currently have selected. For apt-*, use apt-mark hold. For dpkg... well, man dpkg :p (man apt-mark says that itself is a wrapper on dpkg, so you can find how to do what you need with few searches) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/babcac55ba2571f5dc32f4c9a5f72...@neutralite.org
Re: pcmanfm no window/gui, one user only
Le 15.10.2013 12:42, Tazman Deville a écrit : On Mon, Oct 14, 2013 at 02:22:06PM +0200, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote: Le 13.10.2013 13:44, Tazman Deville a écrit : >On Fri, Sep 27, 2013 at 08:11:10PM +0200, Tony Baldwin wrote: >>Friends, >> >>For some reason, when I try to use pcmanfm as my user, I can not. >>I can start it as other users on the system, or with gksu or sudo, >>but not for my user. So it must be a configuration problem, or other users would have the same problem. This is one of the first things I thought, but, as mentioned in my original message, I replaced MY configs with those of another user (and chowned them to me), and this made no difference. Yes, but you only did this on pcmanfm's configuration files, right? I think the problem is not directly a pcmanfm's one, but maybe related to something it uses. This is why I suggested you to move all config files. Do something like that: $ mkdir OLD_CONFIG $ mv .* OLD_CONFIG $ pcmanfm Here, pcmanfm should work. If so, you can move back files one after one until pcmanfm stop to work again, so that you could identify which file is making problem. So far, I'd only tried replacing the configs, not just simply making then unavailable. Making them unavailable will force the softwares to create the default ones, so you will have the default config. ... okay, moving the .config/pcmanfm contents to somewhere, thus leaving the directory empty (no configs) seems to make no difference. Obviously. The problem does not come from pcmanfm, from what I can guess. pcmanfm not working is the consequence of the problem, not the problem itself. You need pcmanfm-dbg to have symbols, it might help. However, I have never tried it myself. I do have that installed. Honestly, I tried to use the *dgb files. I had no results, I was never able to understand their use. It seems that it is better to compile the software with the -g option, and debug the compiled version. At least, you will have the source code, with comments, which makes things really easier, and you also might use some IDE or a debugger with a real human usable interface. I do not say that gdb is bad, but it needs learning. Lot of RTFM for even simple debugging... The debugger I use (which are, in fact, simple frontends to gdb) are the plug-in of codeblocks, and cgdb (I know prefer this last one, except that I still do not know how to interrupt a program, unlike in C::B.). You can also use ddd, or the debugging feature in qtcreator, for example. All of them uses gdb in background, but they are far easier to use than gdb. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/8e0001a4614d8d56a29793b0d0144...@neutralite.org
Re: sysadmin qualifications (Re: apt-get vs. aptitude)
Le 15.10.2013 03:28, Catherine Gramze a écrit : On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 21:12:32 -0400 Jerry Stuckle wrote: Maybe where you are, but not in the world scheme of things. A router is a specific box. A (A)DSL modem may also contain a firewall, etc. But most (A)DSL modems, cable modems, etc., only have one Ethernet port. So people install routers in addition to the one which may or may not be in the (A)DSL modem. Modems and routers are two entirely different things, with completely different uses. One box may contain both - but that does not mean all modems are routers (or vice versa). Hear, hear, Jerry! This is how I have always heard them referred to when I worked as a network admin. A router is a router, and a "cable modem" may or may not (usually not!) have any routing capability. It is really a bridge connecting two networks, as I mentioned previously. It doesn't do any modulating or demodulating. It simply allows the packets to go from one network to the other. I think that most people here knows about that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OSI_model Modem are stuff of layer 1 (or 2, not sure), while routers works on layer 3 (or 4, I am not sure again... I'm not an expert on those stuff, I apologize). Modem and routers are different things, working on different levels. So, routers may include modems, if they need to route packages between networks using different level 1 protocols. But modems have no reason to have routing features: they are on a very lower level. Calling a router which include a modem a modem, would be the same as calling modem a computer. Because computers includes modems (it is not mandatory, but I think that nowadays, every computer includes a sound card able to have both input and output, right? So, to convert analog signals to numeric ones, and vice versa, which is the work of modems). Modems are not networking stuff, they are electrical stuff, which are sometimes used by some networking stuff. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/b613ff330a5fdbb51f2e748eddbc3...@neutralite.org
Re: sysadmin qualifications (Re: apt-get vs. aptitude)
Le 15.10.2013 15:36, Jerry Stuckle a écrit : If you want to confuse things by getting into the OSI model, modems are Layer 1 (Physical). Routers are Layer 3 (Network). Thanks for precision. I stayed away from this because it's mainly of interest to engineers and network programmers; the only thing most programmers have to worry about is Layer 7 (Application). Honestly, I think that it is often a good idea to know what is around your domain. Programmers nowadays do not have to manage computer's memory too, but it seem that when they know how low level works they write more robust programs. Sure, I am a programmer, and do not care at all about all those layers. But knowing that they exist allows me to have a better understanding about why something could have problems, and to speak with other people with different interests. By example, in my last job, I was able to speak with the sysadmins, because I have knowledge about stuff that I do not need to know: linux, networking, firewalls (hardware and software), active directory, and that kind of stuff that programmers do not need. But it always helps to have knowledge you do not need, and if I did not liked that idea when I was younger, I now love it. It is named general culture I think (if that translation from the French expression is correct). In my opinion, programmers which only cares about their stupid languages and paradigms are doing a big error. You can learn as much high level stuff as you want. It you do not have a basic understanding of what allows you to stay so high, you take the risk of falling, and the higher you are, the more dangerous the fall is. I would really like that teachers teach asm x86 at school. It is useless nowadays, right. Except that thanks to that, I had no problem to understand C pointers. Still thanks to that, I was very good in my electronic lessons, which in turns have helps me a lot in my programming, because I know why some operations are faster than others. Yes, it is useless, in the end. But it makes so many things damn easier to learn and tinker. Plus, here, we are not discussing about programming, but about networking, so I think minimal knowledge of network stuff and some electric basis can be useful ;) Calling a router which include a modem a modem, would be the same as calling modem a computer. Because computers includes modems (it is not mandatory, but I think that nowadays, every computer includes a sound card able to have both input and output, right? So, to convert analog signals to numeric ones, and vice versa, which is the work of modems). Modems are not networking stuff, they are electrical stuff, which are sometimes used by some networking stuff. True. Except it's normally the other way around. Companies don't design routers then add a modem to them; they design the modem then decide if they need to add a router. A small, but significant difference. Jerry I think that this way is strange, but conception can be made in so many ways... The only important point in conception is, imho, that in the end, you should have good results. Companies can build my netbook by creating cells and putting stuff around (random words, it is for the example. Plus, that would make sense since the cell determine how many power you can use), but I won't name my computer a cell. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/fbab2fde1a5e3741aa91b052109bc...@neutralite.org
Re: pcmanfm no window/gui, one user only
Le 15.10.2013 23:38, Tazman Deville a écrit : You're talking about moving every .configfile in my $HOME? Yes. That sounds a bit drastic, and possibly a bad idea. Why that? It is only moving. Doing a backup, in fact. If you are feared by that, you can also create a new user, and copy configuration files one after the other until you have the same problematic behavior. Can we narrow it down to what possible files might actually affect it without implementing such drastic measures? I have no other idea... but theoretically, the problems should be related to graphical stuff. I would guess that it could be linked to gtk, fonts, and stuff like that. Take a look at it's dependency chain, and see what in it have some configuration files, that should give you a good hint. Honestly, I tried to use the *dgb files. I had no results, I was never able to understand their use. It seems that it is better to compile the software with the -g option, and debug the compiled version. At least, you will have the source code, with comments, which makes things really easier, and Only if it's written in a language I can make sense of, of course. No. Even without knowing a language, you should be able to read comments, variable names and functions names. I personally consider that, in fact, comments are not as useful as it is taught. Good names for classes, functions and variables are the best documentation and makes comments almost useless. ( note the almost here... some comments are useful, sometimes, when you need to do hacking tricks ) VIM IS THE ONLY IDE!!! I like vim a lot, but it is not an IDE. It is only an editor. My IDE is my whole system: i3, gdb and cgdb, vim, git, lxterminal, bash-completion, meld, man, opera... and no classic all-in-one IDE can compete with it for my needs, this I can assure you ;) I don't thnk we're getting anywhere with gdb or other debuggers, because it's simply stopping and hanging at some point. Or maybe some other debugger will be able to tell me where, and possibly why? As I said, gdb can. Because IDE are able to do so, and they are simply front-ends to gdb. In fact, they are able to interrupt program at user's will. Here is a trick I have learn something like 10 years ago, when I was studying reverse engineering ( well, ok, cracking, but what has always interested me was to add features to closed source softwares. Or removes, so not only the cracking stuff ) : run the targeted program, interrupt it when it shows the (un)desired behavior, and ask the debugger to "run until RET ( asm instruction )" several times so that you finally are in the program itself ( at interrupt time, you will probably be in system functions or in a library ). This way, you can find the section which interest you, quickly. Sadly, I was used to do that with softice ( a ring0 debugger, a very nice and efficient tool, able to debug the OS itself. I wonder why rr0d - it means Rasta Ring 0 Debugger - , the only one I knows able to run other OSes than windows, is not so known...), on windows. w32disasm or ollydbg too. Windows' debuggers are really very good tools, and I know no gdb frontend which can compete with them, sadly. But they are better for their interface, not because GDB lacks the feature. I simply do not know how to do that with GDB... If you or anyone else find how to, I am really interested. But, I know that Code::Blocks is also able to interrupt a program you are debugging. I am certain of that, so GDB should be able to do so. I think I could find how it does it if I take the time to read the debugger plugin... I should do that now I think about it. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/9e59cd137715735ab9cad85bdae75...@neutralite.org
Re: sysadmin qualifications (Re: apt-get vs. aptitude)
Le 15.10.2013 19:32, Chris Bannister a écrit : On Mon, Oct 14, 2013 at 03:43:21PM +0200, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote: I know I wont teach that to anyone here, but modems are not computing stuff, at all. They are simply here to transform numeric signals to analogical ones, and vice versa. I wonder why someone would explicitly call the boxes "router-modem"... Ummm, Under the router which is plugged into the phone line: "ADSL2+ WiFi Modem Router" (without the hyphen!) Under my other router "Wireless router" and yes, it has no modem capability (as the name implies!) Do you think the radio waves are binary signal? So IOW, if you are purchasing a router which you also wish to use as a modem then it better be written on the box!, cause the store owners won't take too kindly in ripping off the shrink wrap to examine the contents. If I buy a computer to listen music, I should ensure myself that there is a sound card in it. Obviously. And I should take some more time to determine if that sound card is good enough for my needs, or change computer (or only adding the card, depending on my knowledge). For routers, it is quite obvious that it will need to be able to communicate with networks it is connected to, so really no use for the modem word here. Unless you need one with a modem! Of course. If one of the networks is based on a numeric signal, and the other based on analog signal, you will need an adequate modem. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/8d73b04435b91f2b53ddd57e10d0c...@neutralite.org
Re: sysadmin qualifications (Re: apt-get vs. aptitude)
Le 15.10.2013 18:28, Jerry Stuckle a écrit : Why? Do you know how a TV signal is encoded at the station? How it is modulated onto the carrier? The operation of the RF and IF strips in your TV? The frequencies of the local oscillator(s) being used? How the RF signal is demodulated? How the video and audio are decoded? How the video is displayed on the screen? How the audio ends up at the speakers? Or do you just turn it on and watch your favorite show? If I am a simple user, I can live without knowing nothing, yes. But I can hardly consider programmers as simple users... And, no, I do not know everything about the TV, but I know some stuff related to it's general working, like, for example, that to have an image I need to capt a radio signal from a satellite (ok, it's not the only way, I know), which is turned into an electrical analog signal, itself converted to a numerical one, which is finally interpreted to generate and image and sound. And this small knowledge allows me to understand why and how I need to move the parabolic antenna, so that I am able to simply use my TV then, without the need of giving a lot of money to someone who will need lot of time to fix it for me (lot of time, because I'll have to wait him to go at my home). So, it makes me able to use my TV quicker, and to fix minor problems if, by example, a strong wind moved the antenna. By example, in my last job, I was able to speak with the sysadmins, because I have knowledge about stuff that I do not need to know: linux, networking, firewalls (hardware and software), active directory, and that kind of stuff that programmers do not need. But it always helps to have knowledge you do not need, and if I did not liked that idea when I was younger, I now love it. It is named general culture I think (if that translation from the French expression is correct). None of which has anything to do with the OSI layers or programming. They are all sysadmin functions. Yes, I was speaking about the interest of being able to understand something that you do not really need to know. It doesn't hurt to have knowledge you don't need now. But this world is way too complex to know everything about everything. I agree. But to be able to communicate with someone which knows what you ignore, you will need common bases to explain what you need. People with very very good knowledge of their domain, but no knowledge in others' domains will need someone able to act as an translator. I have heard lot of stories of very very good computer scientist who mades very very good programs. But the programs were not used, because they were not adequate to user's needs. That's why people have to know basics of other's sciences, and why general culture is important, for me. But maybe I think that because it is the way teaching is made in France, from centuries. I know that the biological knowledge (very basic one, of course, stuff about cellular atomic kernels, DNA, and alike.) I have acquired at a time is not very useful. But it made me able to discuss with my neighbor when I was in higher studies, and also inspired me some ideas for algorithms. Just like I don't program in assembler (for Intel or Motorola MPUs or IBM mainframes), although I could do any of them still. I do not do it either. But by being able to do so, I can understood why some instructions will slow down programs more than others. Of course, early optimization is root of evil, but I know that if I have to divide/multiply integers by a power of 2, I can use the << and >> operators. It also helps me when I need to debug programs, even if I do not have the source code. Pointers have nothing to do with assembler. Pointers are memory addresses, which are very important in asm. So, yes, knowing asm helped me a lot to understand C pointers. I understood them without any problem, unlike my classmates. And those guys were, as me, coming from electronic studies, so they were supposed to know basics about processors. C is not the only language with pointers Of course. They all need to use them if they offer dynamic stuff, but they try to hide them. Is it the good solution or not? I do not know, but if yes, I wonder why most games are written in C or C++? I think that guys who write them knows what is memory, and how it works. I hope for them at least. But it doesn't require knowledge of underlying memory access to use pointers. I've taught many C and C++ classes over the years (I used to do corporate programmer training), and never once did we get into how memory works. I wonder how you taught how to use them, so. Just saying that they are variables which indicates where in memory are located other variables? And people just accept that? Those who never programmed in languages with pointers, i.e. COBOL, had a little trouble getting used to them, Yes. It is what I said. General culture helps to learn new things fast
Re: sysadmin qualifications (Re: apt-get vs. aptitude)
Le 16.10.2013 00:42, Miles Fidelman a écrit : I'm trying to figure out what kinds of things you see "programmers" working on that don't need serious knowledge of the underlying operating system, computer hardware, and i/o environment. I do not think every programmer needs serious knowledge outside the scope of his application, but I really think we need at least bases, as a minimal requirement. I had a boss which said me, one time, that he preferred people able to understand C/asm/CPUs to build SQL requests. The link? People without that "low level" knowledge do not understand why it takes time to compare strings, and their requests were too slow. Just hell too slow. Saying that programmers do not need to care about hardware, is something my teachers tried to convince me about. Luckily enough, I had knowledge at that time, being self-learner. Now, take a look at real world, and explain me why we need so powerful computers to do basic text formatting? Explains me, why we need to destroy the planet to build more powerful hardware, which requires living and dead memory, and so more energy to run? My explanation is, because people of the past taught to other guys things like "Take a int to store that value which is comprised between 0 and 10. If client needs to make the software faster, he can just buy new hardware.", when the correct phrase should have be: "Since we know that this variable have a limited range of values, take an unsigned char. That will cost nothing to you.". We even have languages that are not aware that there are unsigned types... like java. Encouraging people to be expert of their domain and being ignorant of other things will lead to inefficient softwares, even if they might work. Ah, and, of course, not knowing the hardware can also cause "strange" bugs, like a value which become a negative number after an increment. Or the classic problems with real numbers. Basic hardware comprehension is useless to build programs? That's exactly the reason why I take so much care when I select the softwares I install on my computer, which makes my computers with cheap hardware faster than some with expensive hardware. I consider that building efficient softwares is a duty, not a choice. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/e2fe3f037375089bcd0170ac8055c...@neutralite.org
Re: sysadmin qualifications (Re: apt-get vs. aptitude)
Le 16.10.2013 03:25, Jerry Stuckle a écrit : Ah, but you are more than a "simple user". I guess so. I am not even a TV user anymore in fact, but that's not the question. The point is that I can hardly consider a programmer to be a simple user of a computer, because when you write a program, you will probably have to know how to install it, and so know the system you target. Because it's the programmer who knows what the program needs. Root access maybe? Or will it listen on a port? Which configuration files will it needs? Which installed lib? Those are not the work of the admin, even if the admins can be able to understand about what the programmer is talking, so that they can then know when there is a problem how to fix it. Just like I don't program in assembler (for Intel or Motorola MPUs or IBM mainframes), although I could do any of them still. I do not do it either. But by being able to do so, I can understood why some instructions will slow down programs more than others. Of course, early optimization is root of evil, but I know that if I have to divide/multiply integers by a power of 2, I can use the << and >> operators. It also helps me when I need to debug programs, even if I do not have the source code. Pointers have nothing to do with assembler. Pointers are memory addresses, which are very important in asm. So, yes, knowing asm helped me a lot to understand C pointers. I understood them without any problem, unlike my classmates. And those guys were, as me, coming from electronic studies, so they were supposed to know basics about processors. Yes, my C/C++ students sometimes had initial problems with pointers, but some real-world (non-programming) examples got the point across quickly and they grew to at least accept them, if they didn't like them. :) I only know few people who actually likes them :) I liked them too, at a time, but since I can now use standard smart pointers in C++, I tend to avoid them. I had so much troubles with them, so now I only use them for polymorphism and sometimes RTTI. I hope that someday references will become usable in standard containers... (I think they are not because of technical problems, but I do not know a lot about that. C++ is easy to learn, but hard to master.) C is not the only language with pointers Of course. They all need to use them if they offer dynamic stuff, but they try to hide them. Is it the good solution or not? I do not know, but if yes, I wonder why most games are written in C or C++? I think that guys who write them knows what is memory, and how it works. I hope for them at least. C was never meant to be an applications language - K&R designed it for creating OS's (specifically Unix). But because of that design, a good programmer can write code that is smaller and faster than with other languages (except assembler, of course). Yep. It is designed to be an efficient language, allowing to give people full control on their tool, in a portable way. This is risky, because you can shoot your feet, but taking that risk is needed to have efficient softwares. Plus, in an OS, there are applications. Kernels, drivers, and applications. Take windows, and say honestly that it does not contains applications? explorer, mspaint, calc, msconfig, notepad, etc. Those are applications, nothing more, nothing less, and they are part of the OS. They simply have to manage with the OS's API, as you will with any other applications. Of course, you can use more and more layers between your application the the OS's API, to stay in a pure windows environment, there are (or were) for example MFC and .NET. To be more general, Qt, wxWidgets, gtk are other tools. For Debian, in it's standard installation (I insist on the standard installation, the one I never do), it will come with the gnome DE. I do not know the tools it provides, but they are probably applications, too. And it is part of the Debian OS. I know, OSes have evolved since the first UNIX. But languages and the libs available in them too. C was invented 40 years ago. I have seen some of the codes which were valid at that time, and it really had great enhancements (imo). But all of this have nothing related to the need of understanding basics of what you use when doing a program. Not understanding how a resources you acquired works in its big lines, imply that you will not be able to manage it correctly by yourself. It is valid for RAM memory, but also for CPU, network sockets, etc. A bigger advantage is the code is machine-independent. Which is why C and his little brother C++ are probably the reason of my switch to linux. See, if those languages were never used to write applications, there would not be so many portable and efficient one, and so I would have probably stayed to windows (and not annoying people on that list :p), instead of changing my tools one after one until I was able to change the OS itself without chang
Re: sysadmin qualifications (Re: apt-get vs. aptitude)
Le 16.10.2013 08:24, Erwan David a écrit : On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 01:10:42AM CEST, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org said: Le 15.10.2013 19:32, Chris Bannister a écrit : >On Mon, Oct 14, 2013 at 03:43:21PM +0200, >berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote: >>I know I wont teach that to anyone here, but modems are not >>computing stuff, at all. They are simply here to transform numeric >>signals to analogical ones, and vice versa. I wonder why someone >>would explicitly call the boxes "router-modem"... > >Ummm, Under the router which is plugged into the phone line: >"ADSL2+ WiFi Modem Router" (without the hyphen!) > >Under my other router "Wireless router" and yes, it has no modem >capability (as the name implies!) Do you think the radio waves are binary signal? Just as much as the electric signal in an ethernet cable... You got me :) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/3c878f1e4893496527843544e6c90...@neutralite.org
Re: sysadmin qualifications (Re: apt-get vs. aptitude)
Le 16.10.2013 13:04, Jerry Stuckle a écrit : Anybody who thinks that being able to write code (be it Java, C, or .NET crap), without knowing a lot about the environment their code is going to run in, much less general analytic and design skills, is going to have a very short-lived career. Anyone who can't write good cross-platform code which doesn't depend on specific hardware and software has already limited his career. Anyone who can write good cross-platform code has a much greater career ahead of him. It is much harder than writing platform-specific code. If writing portable code is harder than platform-specific code (which is arguable nowadays), then, could it be because you have to take about type's min/max values? To take care to be able to use /home/foo/.bar, /home/foo/.config/bar, c:\users\foo\I\do\not\know\what depending on the platform and what the system provides? Those are, of course, only examples. However, I disagree that it is harder, because checking those kind of problems should be made in every software. For types limitations, never taking care of them is a good way to have over/under-flow problems, and for the file considerations, what if the user have a different configuration than what you thought, on the same system (Of course, I know that you can access system variables to solve those problems)? Does not it means that you have to know basics of your targets to be able to take care of difference between them? Of course, you can simply rely on portable libs. But then, when you have a bug which does not comes from what you did, how can you determine that it comes from a lib you used? I remember having a portability problem, once. A code worked perfectly on a compiler, and not at all on another one. It was not a problem of hardware, but of software: both had to do a choice on a standard's lack of specification (which is something I did not known at that point. I have never read the standard sadly.). I had to take a look at asm generated code for both compilers to understand the error, and find a workaround. What allowed me to understand the problem, was that I had that asm knowledge, which was not a requirement to do what I did. Of course, I have far less experience and grades than it seem you both have, and if I gave a minimalistic sample of the problem you could think that it was stupid, but it does not change that I only was able to fix the problem because of my knowledge of stuff that I have no real need to know. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/3fdf3b9523eb59e72677cafa445e5...@neutralite.org
