Re: Bug#1014908: ITP: gender-guesser -- Guess the gender from first name
On Thu, Jul 14, 2022 at 04:05:35PM +0200, Jeremy Bicha wrote: >... > Debian has a Diversity Statement [1] which says that Debian welcomes > people regardless of how they identify themselves. Trans people and > non-binary people face a lot of discrimination, harrassment and > bullying around the world. Our Diversity Statement says that Debian "welcomes and encourages participation by everyone". People who express how they identify themselves by having a swastika tattoo on their forehead also face a lot of discrimination, harrassment and bullying around the world. Our Diversity Statement makes it clear that we are welcoming and encouraging their participation and are not ourselves discriminating against them. > That bad treatment of these people is > against Debian's core values. >... Our Diversity Statement says that we "welcome contributions from everyone as long as they interact constructively with our community". Debian does not have core values regarding how people are treated outside Debian. Debian is not a project that fights for trans people or fights for denazification or fights for whatever other non-technical topics individual contributors might consider worth fighting for elsewhere. Diversity means that in any kinds of conflicts people on all sides are encouraged to contribute to Debian as long as they interact constructively with our community. > Therefore, the Debian Project wouldn't > want to distribute software that appears to facilitate that kind of > harassment, regardless of the software license it is released under. > We might not want to distribute such software even if it also has > non-harmful uses. >... The exact opposite of diversity is to call everything one dislikes or disagrees with "harassment" or *phobic. > Thank you, > Jeremy Bicha cu Adrian
Pre-Depends for PuppetDB
Hello, I would like to consult my esteemed colleagues as to whether "Pre-Depends: default-jre-headless" is appropriate for a package which ships a systemd service unit that auto-starts after installation, via "ExecStart=/usr/bin/java". The package being worked on is PuppetDB: https://salsa.debian.org/puppet-team/puppetdb The problem is that currently, during installation on a system that doesn't yet carry "/usr/bin/java", the "puppetdb" package is configured *before* "openjdk-11-jre-headless" which itself is a dependency for "default-jre-headless" This leads the service unit to enter the failed state as the update-alternatives postinst bits from "openjdk-11-jre-headless" have not yet run: so at the moment the puppetdb postinst attempts to start the systemd unit, the "/usr/bin/java" symlink is non-existent. If the puppetdb package is somehow to blame for this behavior, and this can be fixed without a Pre-Depends, I'll be happy to impement the required changes. Thank you, -- Jerome
Re: Bug#1014908: ITP: gender-guesser -- Guess the gender from first name
On Fri, Jul 15, 2022 at 07:05:09PM +0300, Adrian Bunk wrote: > On Thu, Jul 14, 2022 at 04:05:35PM +0200, Jeremy Bicha wrote: > >... > > Debian has a Diversity Statement [1] which says that Debian welcomes > > people regardless of how they identify themselves. Trans people and > > non-binary people face a lot of discrimination, harrassment and > > bullying around the world. > > Our Diversity Statement says that Debian "welcomes and encourages > participation by everyone". > Correct. That implies useful, constructive participation in accordance with our community values and not being divisive for the sake of it. gender-guesser may have a negative effect on some of our community of contributors and users. It probably doesn't help people who are gender-fluid, non-binary or trans who feel as if they are being categorised by their names. The categorisation isn't aware of diversity in language - as it stands, it appears biased to Western languages and only a few of them. The world has more cultural groups and lignuistic categories to take account of. Consider - Debconf is on in Kosovo right now. If I had to work out Albanian gender mappings from names, I'd have no clue. Then S. Indian - Malayalam character sets?? and names from a number of Indian languages then Israel and Hebrew/Arabic Taiwan had Chinese character sets and names At what point is this useful for a very small subset of the world's population? > People who express how they identify themselves by having a swastika > tattoo on their forehead also face a lot of discrimination, harrassment > and bullying around the world. Our Diversity Statement makes it clear > that we are welcoming and encouraging their participation and are not > ourselves discriminating against them. > A swastika tattoo on the forehead would be mostly invisible unless meeting someone in person. I couldn't guarantee how people would react on first meeting such a person - I'm assuming this is a straw man for argument purposes. > > That bad treatment of these people is > > against Debian's core values. > >... > > Our Diversity Statement says that we "welcome contributions from > everyone as long as they interact constructively with our community". > > Debian does not have core values regarding how people are treated > outside Debian. > No, but it has very clear core values regarding how they are treated by and within Debian. The adverse effects on some of our people and our users probably outweigh the usefulness of such a script, even if it is accurate and useful to all. > Debian is not a project that fights for trans people or fights for > denazification or fights for whatever other non-technical topics > individual contributors might consider worth fighting for elsewhere. > It does fight for under-represented / disadvantaged groups within Debian in a Debian context. > Diversity means that in any kinds of conflicts people on all sides > are encouraged to contribute to Debian as long as they interact > constructively with our community. > I would ask you (Adrian) to consider whether your mailing list message is a fully constructive interaction with our community and its values here or is just seeking to stir up opinions and arguments for the sake of it. The Code of Conduct calls for a constructive and considered approach to debate on our lists. > > Therefore, the Debian Project wouldn't > > want to distribute software that appears to facilitate that kind of > > harassment, regardless of the software license it is released under. > > We might not want to distribute such software even if it also has > > non-harmful uses. > >... > > The exact opposite of diversity is to call everything one dislikes or > disagrees with "harassment" or *phobic. > I wonder how it would be if you wanted to use a similar script to test familiarity with English in our developers / a test for neurodiversity and high functioning autism / a test for colour vision or dexterity to single out anybody who's visually impaired or blind or a guess for background religion/beliefs/no belief - I don't think any of these (hypothetical, straw man) scripts would be useful or constructive or contribute well to our Debian community. > > Thank you, > > Jeremy Bicha > > cu > Adrian > With every good wish, as ever, Andy Cater
Re: Bug#1014908: ITP: gender-guesser -- Guess the gender from first name
On Fri, Jul 15, 2022 at 07:10:55PM +, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote: > Debconf is on in Kosovo right now. If I had to work out Albanian > gender mappings from names, I'd have no clue. I decided to take a random name: the President of Kosovo. In Wikipedia I see it is Vjosa Osmani, a name completely unfamiliar to me. >>> print(d.get_gender(u"Vjosa")) female This time the guess happened to be correct. > > Then S. Indian - Malayalam character sets?? and names from a number of > Indian languages then Israel and Hebrew/Arabic > Taiwan had Chinese character sets and names I tried various Hebrew names: names in Hebrew letters are always unknown. My name (a rare one) is unknown even in Latin letters. However some common Hebrew names in Latin letters are detected correctly. I have not tried to do any proper sampling or experiment. Just a random data point. -- mail / xmpp / matrix: tzaf...@cohens.org.il
Re: Bug#1014908: ITP: gender-guesser -- Guess the gender from first name
* Jeremy Bicha [220714 10:06]: > On Thu, Jul 14, 2022 at 2:41 PM Roberto C. Sánchez wrote: > > > > On Thu, Jul 14, 2022 at 11:14:43AM +0100, Steve McIntyre wrote: > > > edw...@4angle.com wrote: > > > > > > >Package: wnpp > > > >Severity: wishlist > > > >Owner: Edward Betts > > > >X-Debbugs-Cc: debian-devel@lists.debian.org, > > > >debian-pyt...@lists.debian.org > > > > > > > >* Package name: gender-guesser > > > > Version : 0.4.0 > > > > Upstream Author : Israel Saeta Pérez > > > >* URL : https://github.com/lead-ratings/gender-guesser > > > >* License : GPL-3 & GFDL-1.2+ > > > > Programming Lang: Python > > > > Description : Guess the gender from first name > > > > > > Oh, not *another* package that tries to guess things from names. > > > > > > Do you have a real use for this package? > > > > Why in the world is that even a relevant question? There are plenty of > > packages in the archive which are useful to essentially nobody apart > > from the maintainer and there are even packages which are maintained > > without being useful to the maintainer at all (but rather useful to > > others). > > > > > There are a *lot* of issues > > > in this area, and mis-gendering people is not something to risk > > > lightly... > > > > > > > "There are a *lot* of issues in this area" seems rather nebulous. In > > which area? Given the fact that we have clear and rather unambiguous > > guidelines for what constitutes software which is appropriate for > > inclusion in the archive, and given that on its face this software does > > not seem to be in conflict with any of those guidelines, what then is > > the problem? BTW, I'm not interested in any sort of "well I don't like > > ..." or "such and such could offend so and so ..." sort of arguments. > > Debian has a Diversity Statement [1] which says that Debian welcomes > people regardless of how they identify themselves. Trans people and > non-binary people face a lot of discrimination, harrassment and > bullying around the world. That bad treatment of these people is > against Debian's core values. Therefore, the Debian Project wouldn't > want to distribute software that appears to facilitate that kind of > harassment, regardless of the software license it is released under. > We might not want to distribute such software even if it also has > non-harmful uses. We don't have to distribute *everything* ourselves. People within the Debian community have a right to expect that others in the community will not bully, harass, or denigrate them. They do _not_ have any right to expect that others will not offend them by discussing or making contributions that espouse values that are different and incompatible with their own. Such an expectation assumes that one set of values is correct and the other is wrong. In order for such an expectation to be met, only one of the two sets of values could exist within Debian. Saying that gender-guesser should not be packaged within Debian (using the excuse given early in this thread) is excluding a contribution based on the values to which that package adheres and possibly the contributor and the users who would like to use it. This is contrary to being inclusive. Being offended by someone else's civil expression of their values (including the packaging of a particular piece of software) is not the same as being bullied or denigrated. Please stop trying to use the excuse "it might offend someone" to block participation or inclusion of software. Instead, be inclusive and acknowledge that others' values may be different from and incompatible with yours, and accept that Debian is a collection of software from diverse sources and some of it may not adhere to your values. This is the difference between true inclusiveness and the false "political correctness" that seems to be permeating our society today. When we can all say, "I disagree with your values, but I accept you as a Debian contributor," then we will be truly inclusive. ...Marvin
Re: Pre-Depends for PuppetDB
Hello, Le 2022-07-15 à 14 h 52, Jérôme Charaoui a écrit : > The problem is that currently, during installation on a system that > doesn't yet carry "/usr/bin/java", the "puppetdb" package is configured > *before* "openjdk-11-jre-headless" which itself is a dependency for > "default-jre-headless" It was pointed out to me by elbrus on #debian-devel that this particular problem is likely caused by #929685 and indeed, changing "Depends: default-jre-headless" in puppetdb by "Depends: openjdk-11-jre-headless" fixes the problem. Thanks. -- Jerome
