Re: so long and thanks for all the fish

[Martin Steigerwald]

Joey,

Am Freitag, 7. November 2014, 17:04:10 schrieb Joey Hess:
> It's become abundantly clear that this is no longer the project I
> originally joined in 1996. We've made some good things, and I wish
> everyone well, but I'm out.

I am sad from reading this. I do not know you as a person, except from some of 
your blog entries. But its abundantly clear what contribution you made, what 
amount energy you put into the project. Which makes this even more saddening 
cause I imagine it has been a big reason for you to leave, as I bet with that 
much energy you have put it in, you wouldn´t leave on a minor issue.

Its your decision, although I´d really appreciate if you reconsider after a 
while.

Not knowing the context of your words as I just maintain a few packages that I 
get sponsored into the archive and follow lists on a irregular basis I wonder…

what was the reason? What can Debian as a project and as a community learn 
from it?

I am highly concerned by the state of discussions in Debian triggered by the 
systemd integration – I have never ever seen such a harsh, long and bitter 
discussion in Debian. I was concerned so much that I even tried to channel 
some of the concern upstream, but it seems I was not able to bring across that 
sometimes its not just all technical, but there is more to it – and keeping 
discussions to a sole technical level sometimes doesn´t work out when a lot of 
emotions are involved. But I don´t even know whether you leaving has to do 
anything with that process.

So… if at some time… maybe not now, maybe later… I would appreciate if you 
share your reasons for leaving, not for accusing someone, but just from how 
you felt about things for those who remain with the project to learn from it. 
It may be easier to do this with a little time in between.

Best,
-- 
Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de
GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA  B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7

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Re: so long and thanks for all the fish

[Norbert Preining]

On Fri, 07 Nov 2014, Joey Hess wrote:
> originally joined in 1996. We've made some good things, and I wish
> everyone well, but I'm out.

So long, and thanks for all the fish. We will miss you.

Norbert


PREINING, Norbert   http://www.preining.info
JAIST, Japan TeX Live & Debian Developer
GPG: 0x860CDC13   fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0  ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13



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Re: so long and thanks for all the fish

[Jonas Smedegaard]

Quoting Joey Hess (2014-11-07 22:04:10)
> It's become abundantly clear that this is no longer the project I 
> originally joined in 1996. We've made some good things, and I wish 
> everyone well, but I'm out.

:-(

I am very sad that you leave.  But also curious where you will go from 
here - many moves of yours have been quite inspiring for me.


> If I have one regret from my 18 years in Debian, it's that when the 
> Debian constitution was originally proposed, despite seeing it as 
> dubious, I neglected to speak out against it. It's clear to me now 
> that it's a toxic document, that has slowly but surely led Debian in 
> very unhealthy directions.

Thanks for sharing.  Food for thought!


 - Jonas

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private


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Re: Bug#767617: ITP: calculix-ccx -- CalculiX CrunchiX is a three dimensional structual Finite Element Solver

[Chris Bannister]

On Sat, Nov 01, 2014 at 03:10:03PM +0100, Wolfgang Fuetterer wrote:
> Package: wnpp
> Severity: wishlist
> Owner: Wolfgang Fuetterer 
> 
> * Package name: calculix-ccx
>   Version : 2.7
>   Upstream Author : Guido Dhondt 
> * URL : http://www.calculix.de/
> * License : GPL
>   Programming Lang: C, Fortran
>   Description : CalculiX CrunchiX is a three dimensional structual Finite
> Element Solver
> 
> Calculix-ccx is a three dimensional structual Finite Element Solver. The
> upstream URL is: http://www.calculix.de
> 
> 
> Description from the website:
> CalculiX is a package designed to solve field problems. The method used is the
> finite element method.
> 
> With CalculiX Finite Element Models can be build, calculated and post-
 ^
 should be built

-- 
"If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing." --- Malcolm X


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Re: so long and thanks for all the fish

[Faidon Liambotis]

On 11/07/14 23:04, Joey Hess wrote:

It's become abundantly clear that this is no longer the project I
originally joined in 1996. We've made some good things, and I wish
everyone well, but I'm out.


Extremely sad to read this, Joey. The few times we've crossed paths, 
I've enjoyed working with you (and on your ideas) incredibly. And of 
course I am -as we are all- enjoying the fruits of your efforts, on a 
daily basis. It's a big loss to the project.


I have to say though, I share your sentiments to a very large degree: I 
am, too, quite disappointed from Debian's current state of affairs. More 
to the point, I am, too, quite disappointed by the current behavior of 
the CTTE and by extension, its members.


If the CTTE needs to exist as a body, I am at least expecting from both 
the committee as a whole but from its individual members as well, to 
remain objective, act in a calm, wise and prudent manner, mediate, put 
out fires & unite the project. We've seen some pretty reckless and 
divisive behavior this past year that would be unacceptable for any 
member of the project, let alone a CTTE member.


I don't have high respect for the committee as a whole right now and 
this is probably the opposite of how it should be. This is clearly a 
difficult time for the project and, unfortunately, the CTTE is in the 
middle of this debate and I believe it has actively made things worse. I 
don't think the CTTE members share this blame equally (not by a long 
shot), but especially considering the fact that it's a self-moderated 
body, noone is innocent here.


Best,
Faidon


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Re: Re: Bug#741930: reportbug: add current init system information

[Jonathan de Boyne Pollard]

Sandro Tosi:

what is the recommended way to  identify sysvinit? from the info

> provided above one requires to check a dir existence and the
> checking a command and then execute it to parse its output. it seems
> a bit fragile, and maybe only upstart check really the running
> processes

There isn't really a reliable way to identify any of these as the 
current running system, and upstart is not checking the running 
processes either.


 *  To check for systemd as the running system manager in the 
"official" manner, one checks for the existence of /run/systemd/system 
.  This is a directory, in /run, that systemd itself creates at boot, 
and that other system managers are unlikely to create.  The downside is 
that this check will be fooled if ever someone comes along and 
implements a system that creates these directories for compatibility 
with things that create systemd service units in /run.  I suspect that 
that already is the case for "uselessd" and this test is already broken.


 *  To check for upstart as the running system manager, one checks that 
there's an initctl command and that the output of "initctl version" 
contains the name "upstart" somewhere.  There do exist other initctl 
commands, aside from the one that comes with Upstart. But they don't 
emit the word "upstart".

 root ~ #initctl version
 nosh version 1.10
 root ~ #
Again, the downside is that this is not checking what's running.  
In particular, it fails when one has installed Upstart but not yet 
rebooted in order to run it.


 *  To check for the nosh system-manager, one can do the same "initctl 
version" test as with upstart, and look for "nosh".  Or one can look for 
the /run/system-manager directory.  Both share the weaknesses of the 
equivalent upstart and systemd checks.  initctl isn't present as a 
command unless one has installed the nosh upstart compatibility shims 
package, and there's no guarantee that another initctl won't emit that 
string any more that there's a guarantee that a non-upstart initctl 
won't emit the string "upstart".  And, although there's vanishingly 
small reason to do so, it is possible that something else might create a 
lookalike /run/system-manager directory.  "system-control version" is 
the identical command to "initctl version", however, and that is part of 
the system management package and not a shim.  But on the gripping hand 
this is still a test of the software that is installed and ready to run, 
not of what is currently running.


 *  Ironically, and as people are belatedly discovering, one test for 
System 5 init installed, that is peculiar to Debian, is that no other 
system manager expects the existence of, and no other system management 
toolset Debian package has, the file /etc/inittab . Again, this is not a 
test for System 5 init running.


To check for what system manager is running right now, as opposed to 
what is installed and ready to run, one really has to look at the 
process list or at the various APIs that system managers publish. But 
this isn't wholly without pitfalls.


 *  You've already mentioned the problems with /proc/1/exe .
 *  systemd publishes a whole RPC API over D-Bus, which even contains a 
version name and number; but (a) this isn't covered by the infamous 
"Interface Stability Guarantee" and could change tomorrow or at whim, 
and (b) so too does the lookalike D-Bus server in systemd-shim.

 *  The existence of /run/systemd/private is similarly not guaranteed.
 *  The nosh system-manager doesn't create pipes or sockets in the 
filesystem, and doesn't have an RPC API in the first place.
 *  The nosh service-manager conventionally has an API socket at 
/run/service-manager/control, but one can run the nosh service manager 
under some other system manager; so this doesn't tell one what system 
manager is running as process #1.  In any case, it doesn't set that name 
itself; whatever invoked it does.
 *  The existence of the control API file /dev/initctl isn't specific 
to System 5 init.  systemd has a (non process #1) systemd-initctl server 
that serves this.



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Re: so long and thanks for all the fish

[Roman Czyborra]

2014-11-08[Sat]11:38 Roman Czyborra read that
2014-11-08[Sat]10:46 Faidon Liambotis wrote
<545de691.2090...@debian.org>:
Extremely sad to read this, Joey. The few times we've crossed paths, 
I've enjoyed working with you (and on your ideas) incredibly. And of 
course I am -as we are all- enjoying the fruits of your efforts, on a 
daily basis. It's a big loss to the project.


Where is Joey Hess going to?  Exists a better contract than Debian's?


On 11/07/14 23:04, Joey Hess wrote:
It's become abundantly clear that this is no longer the project I 
originally joined in 1996. We've made some good things, and I wish 
everyone well, but I'm out.



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Re: inconsistent versions of M-A: same packages

[Ralf Jung]

Hi,

> Dpkg and apt allow this just fine. Try to do:
> 
> apt-get install --simulate gcc-4.9-arm-linux-gnueabihf
> 
> And you will end up with a number of armhf packages on your system (you have 
> to
> enable armhf beforehand of course).

Interesting, I didn't know that syntax is already supported. As far as I
know, some packages still use the "(virtual) MA: foreign package" trick
to encode cross-architecture dependencies - on a first check, at least
primus and the proprietary NVidia drivers seem to do that. Does this
mean they could add direct dependency/recommendation like
"libgl1-nvidia-glx:i386" instead?

However, aptitude does not seem to support this completely at this
point: "aptitude show gcc-4.9-arm-linux-gnueabihf" omits the
architecture qualifiers. Is that a bug?

Kind regards
Ralf


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Re: so long and thanks for all the fish

[Michael Hanke]

On Fri, Nov 7, 2014 at 10:04 PM, Joey Hess  wrote:

> If I have one regret from my 18 years in Debian, it's that when the
> Debian constitution was originally proposed, despite seeing it as
> dubious, I neglected to speak out against it. It's clear to me
> now that it's a toxic document, that has slowly but surely led Debian
> in very unhealthy directions.
>

We're fucked! (in my perception of this language there is no better way to
say this).

I know that no person is irreplaceable, but for as long as I know Debian, I
have
experienced Joey as a voice of reason -- seemingly indistractable from
technical
matters, and one of the giants whose proverbial shoulders are carrying this
project.

If the trajectory towards a more inclusive project does not have enough
room to
accommodate people like him, I doubt that the price we need to pay for the
achieving
this goal is worth it.

Michael

Re: so long and thanks for all the fish

[David L. Craig]

> On Fri, 07 Nov 2014, Joey Hess wrote:

> > originally joined in 1996. We've made some good things, and I wish
> > everyone well, but I'm out.

So long, and thanks for all the damn hard work and working code.
May you live long, prosper, and continue to inspire others to
greatness.
-- 

May the LORD God bless you exceedingly abundantly!

Dave_Craig__
"So the universe is not quite as you thought it was.
 You'd better rearrange your beliefs, then.
 Because you certainly can't rearrange the universe."
__--from_Nightfall_by_Asimov/Silverberg_


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Re: New dash in experimental showing up a widespread bashism in configure scripts

[Jonathan de Boyne Pollard]

Gerrit Pape:

Hi, I'd very appreciate help on  tracking down the failures and do

> the appropriate analysis, reportbug, patch drafting, and the like, as
> my time for this is quite limited.

I took a handful of packages as a sample, and the problem could be 
traced to the same bug, over and over, in almost all cases.  Here's the 
first error building fizmo_0.7.9-1 from your logs:


./configure: 2340: test: xyes: unexpected operator

This is a "test" command in the configure script that is using the 
Bashism "==" instead of the standard "=" for string comparison.  You can 
see from the log that it occurs in several places in that script, 
including where it's looking for x/usr/include at one point.  In several 
of the packages that I looked at, this was the root of the problem, and 
the later more obvious symptoms were simply the result of configure 
picking the wrong options because its test expressions were broken.


Some bloke named Lucas Nussbaum once noticed this:

* https://mail.gnome.org/archives/commits-list/2011-April/msg09472.html

But he wasn't the first by a long chalk:

* 
http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-questions/2009-September/204775.html


I suspect that the checkbashisms crew still have a lot of small 
configure.ac patches to send to people.  (-:



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jenkins-triggers (Re: inconsistent versions of M-A: same packages

[Holger Levsen]

Hi,

On Freitag, 7. November 2014, Johannes Schauer wrote:
> is jenkins not triggered by pushes to git and thus sub-optimal for jobs
> that should be run like a cron job?

jenkins can be triggered by many things, currently jobs on jenkins.d.n are 
triggered

- time based
- VCS commit based
- after succesfull other jobs
- after other jobs

It's also possible (and done) to have several triggers. What's currently not 
used are dependencies (eg: only run job A if job B was successful)

And, btw as its related: next up on my todo list is to add a small database 
linking Debian BTS bugs affecting jenkins-jobs, so that triggered jobs can 
silently abort if they are known to fail anyway due to some known+filed bug. I 
just need to sit down and write a few lines of code to implement this... will 
do so soon :-)

An idea which came up yesterday were triggers based on package uploads (or 
testing migrations or..) but that idea is not even on my (jenkins) todo list, 
though I can see how this could be very useful.


cheers,
Holger


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UDD querying jobs on jenkins.d.n (was Re: inconsistent versions of M-A: same packages

[Holger Levsen]

Hi,

On Samstag, 8. November 2014, Stuart Prescott wrote:
> UDD can help with this.

of course! :-)

> A list of source packages that have M-A: same binary packages in jessie
> that have different versions in any two release architectures is at:
> 
>   http://debian.nanonanonano.net/qa/maskew
> 
> There are currently 247 source packages in that list (assuming I've not
> done something very silly in that SQL).
> 
> The list is generated by a very brief script in:
> 
>   http://debian.nanonanonano.net/qa/macheck

very nice. finally a simple howto for querying UDD ;-P Thanks a lot!

It would be trivial to turn this into a jenkins jobs, shall I?

It seems to me, there could be several other UDD querying jobs as well, so my 
first suggestion for a name (+namespace) would be 
"udd_multiarch_inconsistencies"... suggestions for other useful UDD queries 
welcome! (Useful as in: having them run by jenkins every day/week and the 
results displayed in some job...)

> It's quite feasible to extend that script to prepare a list of
> version→arch mappings for each source package.

I think arch based views for multiarch problems would be useful, so that it's 
easier to spot more relevant problems...


cheers,
Holger


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Re: Bad weather in testing ? (was: Re: inconsistent versions of M-A: same packages)

[Holger Levsen]

Hi Ralf,

On Freitag, 7. November 2014, Ralf Treinen wrote:
> > The bad weather in
> > https://qa.debian.org/dose/debcheck/testing_main/index.html is still
> > surprising to see, at this point...
> not at all ! The weather icons are a bit misleading (this is one reason
> why I wasn't such a big fan of these), one has to look at the figures.
> "Storm" is indicated for the "some" category, that is packages that are
> not installable on *some* architecture. There are 1449 of these, but
> 1440 of them are architecture=all, and only 9 of them are
> architecture-specific. 

well, I was surprised to uninstallable packages in testing at all, I was of 
the (foolish) impression that the testing migration scripts made sure this 
would not happen at all. Now I've remembered all the force being used to beat 
testing in shape and that we are not there yet.. ;-)

> The issue of architecture=all packages that
> are not installable on some architecture can IMHO not be solved with
> our current setup which makes architectures=all available on every
> architecture.

The issue would become a non-issue if the "end user tools" (eg apt) would not 
show such packages as available, or?


cheers,
Holger


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Re: so long and thanks for all the fish

[Martin Steigerwald]

Am Samstag, 8. November 2014, 10:19:02 schrieb Martin Steigerwald:
> Joey,
> 
> Am Freitag, 7. November 2014, 17:04:10 schrieb Joey Hess:
> > It's become abundantly clear that this is no longer the project I
> > originally joined in 1996. We've made some good things, and I wish
> > everyone well, but I'm out.
> 
> I am sad from reading this. I do not know you as a person, except from some
> of  your blog entries. But its abundantly clear what contribution you made,
> what amount energy you put into the project. Which makes this even more
> saddening cause I imagine it has been a big reason for you to leave, as I
> bet with that much energy you have put it in, you wouldn´t leave on a minor
> issue.
> 
> Its your decision, although I´d really appreciate if you reconsider after a 
> while.
> 
> Not knowing the context of your words as I just maintain a few packages that
> I  get sponsored into the archive and follow lists on a irregular basis I
> wonder…
> 
> what was the reason? What can Debian as a project and as a community learn 
> from it?

Okay, I got the context meanwhile from some links to mails from you out of a 
Phoronix forum thread the proposal you seconded with the current GR.

I am not sure what I make out of this and how this really became so serious 
for you that you leave.

[1] 
http://www.phoronix.com/forums/showthread.php?108809-Joey-Hess-Resigns-From-Debian-Unhappy-With-How-It-s-Changed&p=451178#post451178

[2] https://www.debian.org/vote/2014/vote_003

Ciao,
-- 
Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de
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Re: UDD querying jobs on jenkins.d.n (was Re: inconsistent versions of M-A: same packages

[Holger Levsen]

Hi,

On Samstag, 8. November 2014, Holger Levsen wrote:
> It would be trivial to turn this into a jenkins jobs, shall I?
> 
> It seems to me, there could be several other UDD querying jobs as well, so
> my first suggestion for a name (+namespace) would be
> "udd_multiarch_inconsistencies"... suggestions for other useful UDD queries
> welcome! (Useful as in: having them run by jenkins every day/week and the
> results displayed in some job...)

I've done this now, currently there are three jobs:

https://jenkins.debian.net/view/qa.debian.org/job/udd_sid_multiarch_versionskew
https://jenkins.debian.net/view/qa.debian.org/job/udd_jessie_multiarch_versionskew
https://jenkins.debian.net/view/qa.debian.org/job/udd_wheezy_multiarch_versionskew

They are all run daily at 8am UTC, though the wheezy job is only run on the 
first of the month.

wookey, do you want email/irc notifications going somewhere?

I've added turning the source package names into links to tracker.d.o on my 
todo-list, as well as including version numbers into the output.

If you want to help me with that, please patch 
http://anonscm.debian.org/cgit/qa/jenkins.debian.net.git/tree/bin/udd-query.sh
 which takes params as defined in 
http://anonscm.debian.org/cgit/qa/jenkins.debian.net.git/tree/job-cfg/udd.yaml

If you have any ideas for further UDD querying jobs I'd be glad to hear them!


cheers,
Holger



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Re: so long and thanks for all the fish

[Yaroslav Halchenko]

On Sat, 08 Nov 2014, Michael Hanke wrote:
>  If I have one regret from my 18 years in Debian, it's that when the
>  Debian constitution was originally proposed, despite seeing it as
>  dubious, I neglected to speak out against it. It's clear to me
>  now that it's a toxic document, that has slowly but surely led Debian
>  in very unhealthy directions.

>We're fucked!

Whenever I thought that things could go right once for a change, this
"news" came.  Well done my lovely community (I will wear this blame
badge from now on too)!

> (in my perception of this language there is no better way to say this).

I wholeheartedly agree.

Joey, 

no words would be sufficient to express my gratitude to you for all what
you have done for the Debian project.  No other day would be alike now
in Debian when you are gone.

I really hope, that if not through the full parentship of this baby of
yours, you will still keep an eye on your kid(s), express your opinion
and share technical expertise one way or another from time to time.
Let's may be call this not a "retirement" but rather "sending kids to
college" transition -- 18 years is about the right age they say?

Please don't give up on us entirely!  Please???!!!

-- 
Yaroslav O. Halchenko, Ph.D.
http://neuro.debian.net http://www.pymvpa.org http://www.fail2ban.org
Research Scientist,Psychological and Brain Sciences Dept.
Dartmouth College, 419 Moore Hall, Hinman Box 6207, Hanover, NH 03755
Phone: +1 (603) 646-9834   Fax: +1 (603) 646-1419
WWW:   http://www.linkedin.com/in/yarik


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Jessie Freeze -> What is the next release name? (jessie+1)

[Osamu Aoki]

Hi,

On Wed, Nov 05, 2014 at 11:56:49PM +, Jonathan Wiltshire wrote:
> The release team is pleased to announce that Debian 8.0 "Jessie" is frozen.
> Further updates to this release will be restricted to bug fixes only.
...

I thought usually this type of announcement comes with next release
name.

I was going to update web site (later) and debian-reference package (in
November) in proper timing.  Did I miss some announcement? 
(Too many init discussion posts )

Regards,

Osamu


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Re: Jessie Freeze -> What is the next release name? (jessie+1)

[Javier Barroso]

It would be useful to know it :
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=766283

Regards
El 08/11/2014 18:07, "Osamu Aoki"  escribió:

> Hi,
>
> On Wed, Nov 05, 2014 at 11:56:49PM +, Jonathan Wiltshire wrote:
> > The release team is pleased to announce that Debian 8.0 "Jessie" is
> frozen.
> > Further updates to this release will be restricted to bug fixes only.
> ...
>
> I thought usually this type of announcement comes with next release
> name.
>
> I was going to update web site (later) and debian-reference package (in
> November) in proper timing.  Did I miss some announcement?
> (Too many init discussion posts )
>
> Regards,
>
> Osamu
>
>
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>
>

Re: Reminder: Removing < 2048 bit keys from the Debian keyrings

[Thijs Kinkhorst]

On Sat, November 8, 2014 17:09, Jonathan McDowell wrote:
> We had hoped to be down to a small number of special cases to deal with
> by this point, but with the numbers still looking this bad we're not
> yet at a stage where we can work out appropriate next steps for those
> special cases.

In the list you post, I see lots of names of people I know to be inactive
for years now. Removing all those keys from the ring would therefore maybe
not be such a disaster, because the majority is no longer regularly
contributing to Debian.

To make this a bit more concrete, I've matched the uids against echelon,
and this is the outcome:

160 2014
 42 2013
 54 2012
 31 2011
 24 2010
 31 2009
 21 2008
 17 2007
  7 2006
  5 2005
  2 2004
  1 2003
  1 2002

So 160 keys were used this year, which is cause for concern if they are
removed. However, it means 236 keys have not seen use in 2014 yet. And of
those 160 keys have been used most recently in 2011; of those we can be
rather certain that removing their key from the ring actually confirms the
status quo rather than disrupt it.

It therefore makes sense not to focus on the number of 436, but on the
ones that have actually been used in 2014; get that first number of 160
closer to 0.


Cheers,
Thijs


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Re: so long and thanks for all the fish

[Florian Lohoff]

Hi,

On Fri, Nov 07, 2014 at 05:04:10PM -0400, Joey Hess wrote:
> It's become abundantly clear that this is no longer the project I
> originally joined in 1996. We've made some good things, and I wish
> everyone well, but I'm out.

I share your feelings. Back in those days you and Joey were the reasons for me
to join Debian. In Oldenburg at the m68k Hacker meeting i showed up with a
complete mips and mipsel port done and had been hosting a Debian mirror for a
while. You two told me there was no way around than to associate more with
Debian - so i did.

I just installed moon-buggy just to remember those days ;)

m68k is gone - You are gone.

Wish you all the best.

Flo
-- 
Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de


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Re: Jessie Freeze -> What is the next release name? (jessie+1)

[Arno Töll]

Hi,

the next release will be named Debian Zurg[*].


[*] soon to be announced, I'm sure.

-- 
with kind regards,
Arno Töll
IRC: daemonkeeper on Freenode/OFTC
GnuPG Key-ID: 0x9D80F36D



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Re: Jessie Freeze -> What is the next release name? (jessie+1)

[Adam Borowski]

On Sat, Nov 08, 2014 at 06:13:31PM +0100, Javier Barroso wrote:
> > On Wed, Nov 05, 2014 at 11:56:49PM +, Jonathan Wiltshire wrote:
> > > The release team is pleased to announce that Debian 8.0 "Jessie" is
> > > frozen.
>
> > I thought usually this type of announcement comes with next release
> > name.
> >
> > I was going to update web site (later) and debian-reference package (in
> > November) in proper timing.  Did I miss some announcement?
> > (Too many init discussion posts )
>
> It would be useful to know it :
> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=766283

To prevent such problems in the future, what about choosing the names for
both zurg and zurg+1?  This way, the codename for zurg+1 would be known
during the whole zurg development cycle.

-- 
// If you believe in so-called "intellectual property", please immediately
// cease using counterfeit alphabets.  Instead, contact the nearest temple
// of Amon, whose priests will provide you with scribal services for all
// your writing needs, for Reasonable and Non-Discriminatory prices.


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Re: UDD querying jobs on jenkins.d.n (was Re: inconsistent versions of M-A: same packages

[Michael Tautschnig]

Hi Holger,

On Sat, Nov 08, 2014 at 15:12:42 +, Holger Levsen wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On Samstag, 8. November 2014, Holger Levsen wrote:
> > It would be trivial to turn this into a jenkins jobs, shall I?
> > 
> > It seems to me, there could be several other UDD querying jobs as well, so
> > my first suggestion for a name (+namespace) would be
> > "udd_multiarch_inconsistencies"... suggestions for other useful UDD queries
> > welcome! (Useful as in: having them run by jenkins every day/week and the
> > results displayed in some job...)
> 
> I've done this now, currently there are three jobs:
> 
> https://jenkins.debian.net/view/qa.debian.org/job/udd_sid_multiarch_versionskew
> https://jenkins.debian.net/view/qa.debian.org/job/udd_jessie_multiarch_versionskew
> https://jenkins.debian.net/view/qa.debian.org/job/udd_wheezy_multiarch_versionskew
> 
[...]
> If you have any ideas for further UDD querying jobs I'd be glad to hear them!
> 

Have you considered running a groovy script instead of an external shell script?
This may make things easier/avoid the external script dependency. Here's what
I'm doing:

manager.hudson.class.classLoader.addURL(new 
URL("file:///usr/share/java/postgresql-jdbc4.jar"))

import groovy.sql.Sql;

def sql = 
Sql.newInstance("jdbc:postgresql://public-udd-mirror.xvm.mit.edu:5432/udd", 
"public-udd-mirror", "public-udd-mirror", "org.postgresql.Driver")

def check_res = \
sql.firstRow("SELECT count(*) \
  FROM bugs INNER JOIN bugs_usertags USING (id) \
  WHERE bugs_usertags.email = 'm...@debian.org' AND 
bugs_usertags.tag = 'goto-cc'")
assert check_res.count != null && check_res.count > 0, 'Could not select any 
bug reports'

(and then some more SQL queries)

Best,
Michael




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Moving File::Temp to perl-base

[Niko Tyni]

Hi,

I would like to move File::Temp, the standard Perl module for safely
creating temporary files and directories, into the perl-base package.
This would pull 122KB into essential set, 78KB of which is File::Temp
itself. As growing the essential set affects all Debian systems, I think
this needs a discussion on this list.

I'm aware that we've just frozen, and I'd like to leave the timing of the
change out of this discussion. I'd personally like to do it for jessie
and I don't see much risk for regressions, but I intend to discuss that
with the release team separately.

The init-system-helpers package uses File::Temp, and init-system-helpers
provides some of Debian's core infrastructure for supporting multiple init
systems by synchronizing service state to systemd from other init system
implementations (enabling users to more easily switch back and forth).
It therefore would be good to allow maintainers to use it freely in init
scripts without depending on perl, which is not part of the required set.
We want to make it as easy as possible to support multiple init systems.

Additionally, it makes sense to ensure File::Temp is generally available
to maintainer scripts, since securely creating a temporary file is
both difficult and a reasonable action for maintainer scripts to want
to take.  So this also argues for promoting it to the essential set so
that maintainer scripts don't have to worry about whether or not it's
available. Using /usr/bin/mktemp from Perl scripts is unnecessarily hard
and error-prone for such a security sensitive task.

There's some background in #757891. The current state is very much
suboptimal, and while this isn't the only way to solve it, I'm convinced
now that it's the right one.
-- 
Niko Tyni   nt...@debian.org


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Re: Jessie Freeze -> What is the next release name? (jessie+1)

[Niels Thykier]

On 2014-11-08 18:06, Osamu Aoki wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On Wed, Nov 05, 2014 at 11:56:49PM +, Jonathan Wiltshire wrote:
>> The release team is pleased to announce that Debian 8.0 "Jessie" is frozen.
>> Further updates to this release will be restricted to bug fixes only.
> ...
> 
> I thought usually this type of announcement comes with next release
> name.
> 
> I was going to update web site (later) and debian-reference package (in
> November) in proper timing.  Did I miss some announcement? 
> (Too many init discussion posts )
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Osamu
> 
> 

The release name of Jessie+1 will be announced tomorrow morning
(09:15-10:15 UTC) at the Release update at the Cambridge mini-DebConf.

~Niels






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Re: Jessie Freeze -> What is the next release name? (jessie+1)

[Jerome BENOIT]

On 08/11/14 19:00, Adam Borowski wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 08, 2014 at 06:13:31PM +0100, Javier Barroso wrote:
>>> On Wed, Nov 05, 2014 at 11:56:49PM +, Jonathan Wiltshire wrote:
 The release team is pleased to announce that Debian 8.0 "Jessie" is
 frozen.
>>
>>> I thought usually this type of announcement comes with next release
>>> name.
>>>
>>> I was going to update web site (later) and debian-reference package (in
>>> November) in proper timing.  Did I miss some announcement?
>>> (Too many init discussion posts )
>>
>> It would be useful to know it :
>> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=766283
> 
> To prevent such problems in the future, what about choosing the names for
> both zurg and zurg+1?  This way, the codename for zurg+1 would be known
> during the whole zurg development cycle.

In this approach, for consistency, (zurg+1)+1=zurg+2 must also be given, and so 
forth:
so from now to the end of the time, the all codename sequence must be given.
Giving (+1) before the freeze of  sounds more realistic.

Jerome

> 


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Re: Moving File::Temp to perl-base

[Marco d'Itri]

On Nov 08, Niko Tyni  wrote:

> The init-system-helpers package uses File::Temp, and init-system-helpers
> provides some of Debian's core infrastructure for supporting multiple init
> systems by synchronizing service state to systemd from other init system
> implementations (enabling users to more easily switch back and forth).
Since most daemons do or will depend on init-system-helpers, I think 
that this is a good idea.

-- 
ciao,
Marco


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Re: Jessie Freeze -> What is the next release name? (jessie+1)

[Adam Borowski]

On Sat, Nov 08, 2014 at 07:46:09PM +0100, Jerome BENOIT wrote:
> On 08/11/14 19:00, Adam Borowski wrote:
> > To prevent such problems in the future, what about choosing the names for
> > both zurg and zurg+1?  This way, the codename for zurg+1 would be known
> > during the whole zurg development cycle.
> 
> In this approach, for consistency, (zurg+1)+1=zurg+2 must also be given, and 
> so forth:
> so from now to the end of the time, the all codename sequence must be given.
> Giving (+1) before the freeze of  sounds more realistic.

There's no no-negligible development nor plans for testing+2, so knowing
the name of just testing+1 is enough.  What I'm arguing for here, though, is
knowing testing+1 no later than the time of testing-1's release.

Testing-1's freeze is on the other hand the earliest boundary when this
makes sense (if we include experimental as a part of zurg's cycle).  I
proposed naming zurg+1 right now because we're right on this earliest
boundary, and the release team happens to be physically in one place.

In the long run, moving the naming ceremony from freeze to release would
probably be best.

-- 
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// cease using counterfeit alphabets.  Instead, contact the nearest temple
// of Amon, whose priests will provide you with scribal services for all
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Re: Reminder: Removing < 2048 bit keys from the Debian keyrings

[Richard Hartmann]

Can you put this list, and a count, in a place I can wget from?


Richard


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Re: so long and thanks for all the fish

[Gunnar Wolf]

Joey Hess dijo [Fri, Nov 07, 2014 at 05:04:10PM -0400]:
> It's become abundantly clear that this is no longer the project I
> originally joined in 1996. We've made some good things, and I wish
> everyone well, but I'm out.

How can the Master Fisherman thank us for all the fish?

Yes, pulling the fish out has been a collective work so far. But your
work has been so inspiring and so helpful to the project as a whole
that there is no way not to miss you.

There is no way not to look up to your example, being one of the most
prolific and technically diverse people I have had the pleasure of
knowing, and being socially intelligent enough to stay clear of
flames.

Best luck in all your future projects, Joey. It has been a pleasuuure
being in the same boat as you for the past eleven years. I hope we
cross paths again in the future.


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Re: Jessie Freeze -> What is the next release name? (jessie+1)

[Holger Levsen]

Hi,

On Samstag, 8. November 2014, Niels Thykier wrote:
> The release name of Jessie+1 will be announced tomorrow morning
> (09:15-10:15 UTC) at the Release update at the Cambridge mini-DebConf.

that's not quite sure yet, it depends whether you'll oversleep or not! ;-)


cheers,
Holger




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Re: UDD querying jobs on jenkins.d.n (was Re: inconsistent versions of M-A: same packages

[Holger Levsen]

Hi Michael,

On Samstag, 8. November 2014, Michael Tautschnig wrote:
> Have you considered running a groovy script instead of an external shell
> script? This may make things easier

not really, as I'm not at all groovy with groovy, IOW, I hardly know what it 
is :)

> /avoid the external script dependency.

which dependency?

> Here's what I'm doing:
> 
> manager.hudson.class.classLoader.addURL(new
> URL("file:///usr/share/java/postgresql-jdbc4.jar"))
> 
> import groovy.sql.Sql;
> 
> def sql =
> Sql.newInstance("jdbc:postgresql://public-udd-mirror.xvm.mit.edu:5432/udd"
> , "public-udd-mirror", "public-udd-mirror", "org.postgresql.Driver")
> 
> def check_res = \
> sql.firstRow("SELECT count(*) \
>   FROM bugs INNER JOIN bugs_usertags USING (id) \
>   WHERE bugs_usertags.email = 'm...@debian.org' AND
> bugs_usertags.tag = 'goto-cc'") assert check_res.count != null &&
> check_res.count > 0, 'Could not select any bug reports'
> 
> (and then some more SQL queries)

I don't how this is any better than shell, really. (But I'd be glad to 
learn...)


cheers,
Holger


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Re: Jessie Freeze -> What is the next release name? (jessie+1)

[Jerome BENOIT]

On 08/11/14 21:04, Adam Borowski wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 08, 2014 at 07:46:09PM +0100, Jerome BENOIT wrote:
>> On 08/11/14 19:00, Adam Borowski wrote:
>>> To prevent such problems in the future, what about choosing the names for
>>> both zurg and zurg+1?  This way, the codename for zurg+1 would be known
>>> during the whole zurg development cycle.
>>
>> In this approach, for consistency, (zurg+1)+1=zurg+2 must also be given, and 
>> so forth:
>> so from now to the end of the time, the all codename sequence must be given.
>> Giving (+1) before the freeze of  sounds more realistic.
> 
> There's no no-negligible development nor plans for testing+2, so knowing
> the name of just testing+1 is enough.

I am absolutely agree. My point was that the assertion
`` choosing the names for both zurg and zurg+1 ''
builds an infinite sequence of codenames. This is math.

  What I'm arguing for here, though, is
> knowing testing+1 no later than the time of testing-1's release.
> 
> Testing-1's freeze is on the other hand the earliest boundary when this
> makes sense (if we include experimental as a part of zurg's cycle).  I
> proposed naming zurg+1 right now because we're right on this earliest
> boundary, and the release team happens to be physically in one place.
> 
> In the long run, moving the naming ceremony from freeze to release would
> probably be best.
> 


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Re: Jessie Freeze -> What is the next release name? (jessie+1)

[Jonathan Wiltshire]

On Sat, Nov 08, 2014 at 07:00:07PM +0100, Adam Borowski wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 08, 2014 at 06:13:31PM +0100, Javier Barroso wrote:
> > > On Wed, Nov 05, 2014 at 11:56:49PM +, Jonathan Wiltshire wrote:
> > > > The release team is pleased to announce that Debian 8.0 "Jessie" is
> > > > frozen.
> >
> > > I thought usually this type of announcement comes with next release
> > > name.
> > >
> > > I was going to update web site (later) and debian-reference package (in
> > > November) in proper timing.  Did I miss some announcement?
> > > (Too many init discussion posts )
> >
> > It would be useful to know it :
> > https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=766283
> 
> To prevent such problems in the future, what about choosing the names for
> both zurg and zurg+1?  This way, the codename for zurg+1 would be known
> during the whole zurg development cycle.

This did occur to us, yes.


-- 
Jonathan Wiltshire  j...@debian.org
Debian Developer http://people.debian.org/~jmw

4096R: 0xD3524C51 / 0A55 B7C5 1223 3942 86EC  74C3 5394 479D D352 4C51


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Re: Re: Bug#741930: reportbug: add current init system information

[Steve Langasek]

On Sat, Nov 08, 2014 at 10:15:46AM +, Jonathan de Boyne Pollard wrote:
> There isn't really a reliable way to identify any of these as the current
> running system, and upstart is not checking the running processes either.



>  *  To check for upstart as the running system manager, one checks that
> there's an initctl command and that the output of "initctl version" contains
> the name "upstart" somewhere.  There do exist other initctl commands, aside
> from the one that comes with Upstart. But they don't emit the word
> "upstart".
>  root ~ #initctl version
>  nosh version 1.10
>  root ~ #
> Again, the downside is that this is not checking what's running.  In
> particular, it fails when one has installed Upstart but not yet rebooted in
> order to run it.

This is false. 'initctl version' queries the running upstart over dbus.

>  *  To check for the nosh system-manager, one can do the same "initctl
> version" test as with upstart, and look for "nosh".  Or one can look for the
> /run/system-manager directory.  Both share the weaknesses of the equivalent
> upstart and systemd checks.  initctl isn't present as a command unless one
> has installed the nosh upstart compatibility shims package, and there's no
> guarantee that another initctl won't emit that string any more that there's
> a guarantee that a non-upstart initctl won't emit the string "upstart".

I have never heard of nosh before and it appears to not be in Debian, but
having it implement upstart interfaces (such as the 'initctl' program)
without understanding the semantics of those commands sounds like a pretty
bad idea.

The 'initctl' command, in Debian, is owned by the upstart package.
Implementing something that conflicts with this ownership, and then
asserting that upstart's interfaces are therefore unreliable, is not
appropriate.

-- 
Steve Langasek   Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer   to set it on, and I can move the world.
Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/
slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org


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Re: so long and thanks for all the fish

[Russ Allbery]

zlatan  writes:

> In advance sorry for all spelling mistake that I will write as I am
> writing from my phone and I am not a native English speaker.

[...]

And yet, I don't see how it could have been said better.  Thank you so
much for putting this into words.

> I just want the warm community feel back where we do not need some
> special technical process to reach some consensus but a nice talks
> between friends because we are afterall friends here. A family. So,
> please, lets care for each other and do a handshaking and hugging as a
> consensus for everything.

+1

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)   


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Please more fish (was: so long and thanks for all the fish)

[Michael Gilbert]

On Sat, Nov 8, 2014 at 8:08 PM, Russ Allbery wrote:
> zlatan writes:
>
>> In advance sorry for all spelling mistake that I will write as I am
>> writing from my phone and I am not a native English speaker.
>
> [...]
>
> And yet, I don't see how it could have been said better.  Thank you so
> much for putting this into words.

How can you possibly think no more need said?  You are one of four
complicit in the act that finally pushed Joey over the edge [0].

The fire bell is ringing, and no one is getting out of bed.

The legitimacy of the technical committee has been entirely destroyed
by misguided acts over the last year.

The sad part is that this all would have been avoided if the
composition were more mindfulness of potential consequence to their
actions, especially in the face of some observers stating exactly that
during the process.

For the technical committee to regain any stasis of legitimacy, the
composition must change.  All those involved (both explicitly and
complicity) in the vote that caused Joey's suicide from Debian should
consider resigning in shame.

Even then,we need to reconsider the implicit danger of imbuing power
that can do so much damage to a potentially non-representative subset
of project members.

Best wishes,
Mike

[0] https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2014/11/msg00045.html


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Re: Please more fish

[Russ Allbery]

Michael Gilbert  writes:
> On Sat, Nov 8, 2014 at 8:08 PM, Russ Allbery wrote:

>> And yet, I don't see how it could have been said better.  Thank you so
>> much for putting this into words.

> How can you possibly think no more need said?  You are one of four
> complicit in the act that finally pushed Joey over the edge [0].

[...]

If anyone reads this message and feels some urge to jump in and defend me
or argue with Michael, I would take it as a personal favor if you would
set that message aside unsent and put the energy into something positive,
like telling Joey how much you appreciate his work.

I don't want this to be taken as asking for criticism to be shut down, so
I'm not asking this of anyone who wants to agree with Michael.  If you
want to do that in public or private, please go ahead.  But I would
greatly appreciate not being the cause or motivation for another heated
argument on debian-devel, with anyone in the project, and I don't need the
public defense.

Thank you.

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)   


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Re: Please more fish (was: so long and thanks for all the fish)

[Christoph Anton Mitterer]

On Sat, 2014-11-08 at 22:32 -0500, Michael Gilbert wrote: 
> You are one of four
> complicit in the act that finally pushed Joey over the edge [0].
Don't you think it goes a bit far to personally accusing some people of
this?
I guess Joey was long enough in the business to have known how to deal
with people he may have fought or disagreed with... and even if there
may have been something that gave the final spark for him to decide to
leave (there always must be, right?), it was likely no decision that
evolved out of wrath in one specific matter.

I'd think that if one has devoted so many years of one's own life into
some project, then such decision is very well made and evolved over some
long time.
Since after all, for someone who spend so much time for a project,
leaving it will actually mean a considerable chance of his life.


> The fire bell is ringing, and no one is getting out of bed.
Well that's probably a different topic, isn't it? As the recent
discussions have shown, there are many people who feel Debian goes the
wrong way in some fields - but I wouldn't make this all up to systemd.
I mean I have my concerns as well, mainly what happens to the BSDs, and
that I dislike the strong integration of systems that get too complex
(this always failed sooner or later)... but this is less the fault of
systemd itself, is it?
In the end it's quite easy: sysvinit has many deficiencies ans missing
feature, systemd is superior in all places.
The only thing *I* regret is that it's not really used to it's full
potential - i.e. in some places it rather seem we just try to rebuild
sysvinit in systemd, restricting ourselfs.
And for all people who are so unhappy with how GNOME develops,... well
I'm so either, but there are alternatives and as long as these can be
used, everything's fine.


But apart from these flame wars... giving personal responsibility to
someone seems really a bad way... if Debian starts engaging in that,
then it will really suffer terribly.


Actually I've just waited for it to happen, nevertheless it's kinda
disturbing.
Instead of further adding fuel to the fire, one should perhaps better
try to have people reconciling and maybe convince Joey to rescind from
leaving and remain in the project he spend so much time of is life for.


> The legitimacy of the technical committee has been entirely destroyed
> by misguided acts over the last year.
Well others would say that decisions had to be made, and the best that
was possible might have been done?


> All those involved (both explicitly and
> complicity) in the vote that caused Joey's suicide from Debian should
> consider resigning in shame.
"suicide"? o.O


> Even then,we need to reconsider the implicit danger of imbuing power
> that can do so much damage to a potentially non-representative subset
> of project members.
Quite often it also seems to be one of Debian's biggest issues, not to
have such leading people at least decide anything.



Cheers,
Chris. 


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Re: Please more fish

[Michael Gilbert]

On Sat, Nov 8, 2014 at 10:53 PM, Russ Allbery wrote:
> I don't want this to be taken as asking for criticism to be shut down, so
> I'm not asking this of anyone who wants to agree with Michael.  If you
> want to do that in public or private, please go ahead.  But I would
> greatly appreciate not being the cause or motivation for another heated
> argument on debian-devel, with anyone in the project, and I don't need the
> public defense.

My message is intentional, and intentionally harsh.

The damage caused to the project by alienating Joey is astounding, and
the inability to recognize that even more so.

Best wishes,
Mike


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Re: Please more fish

[Russ Allbery]

Michael Gilbert  writes:
> On Sat, Nov 8, 2014 at 10:53 PM, Russ Allbery wrote:

>> I don't want this to be taken as asking for criticism to be shut down,
>> so I'm not asking this of anyone who wants to agree with Michael.  If
>> you want to do that in public or private, please go ahead.  But I would
>> greatly appreciate not being the cause or motivation for another heated
>> argument on debian-devel, with anyone in the project, and I don't need
>> the public defense.

> My message is intentional, and intentionally harsh.

I know, and I respect that, and I think that I understand where you're
coming from.  And I also greatly appreciate the passion and love for the
project that led you to say what you said.

> The damage caused to the project by alienating Joey is astounding, and
> the inability to recognize that even more so.

I'm sure that a lot of us are doing a lot of soul-searching right now.  I
certainly am.  Not all of that is going to immediately happen in public.
I respect what you're saying, and I fully support you saying it in public
if you feel that will be helpful.  I'm not going to respond to the
substance of what you're saying right now mainly because there are a lot
of things that I want to think about, and I don't believe thinking about
them in public is right for me.

This is not a request for you to stop.

I thought Zlatan's message was beautiful, and it really touched me, and I
wanted to say that.  It may have been better if I'd said that in private.

Please do not read that message as implying that his message is all that
needs to ever be said, or that it should be the end of any conversation,
or even that it's everything that I'm personally thinking.

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)   


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Re: Please more fish (was: so long and thanks for all the fish)

[Michael Gilbert]

On Sat, Nov 8, 2014 at 10:57 PM, Christoph Anton Mitterer wrote:
> On Sat, 2014-11-08 at 22:32 -0500, Michael Gilbert wrote:
>> You are one of four
>> complicit in the act that finally pushed Joey over the edge [0].
>
> Don't you think it goes a bit far to personally accusing some people of
> this?

No accusation, just a statement of fact.  Four ctte members were
complicit in the vote [0] that catalyzed Joey's resignation.

>> The fire bell is ringing, and no one is getting out of bed.
>
> Well that's probably a different topic, isn't it? As the recent
> discussions have shown, there are many people who feel Debian goes the
> wrong way in some fields - but I wouldn't make this all up to systemd.

No, the fire is not systemd, it is the politicization of the project
via ctte and GR rather than patient evolution of the best technical
solution.

>> The legitimacy of the technical committee has been entirely destroyed
>> by misguided acts over the last year.
>
> Well others would say that decisions had to be made, and the best that
> was possible might have been done?

Sometimes the best decision is none at all.  It can sometimes take a
lot of time for the right solution to evolve, but that requires
patience, and the project seems to have lost that quality.  That is
why Joey is gone.

Best wishes,
Mike


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Re: New dash in experimental showing up a widespread bashism in configure scripts

[Paul Wise]

On Sat, Nov 8, 2014 at 7:57 PM, Jonathan de Boyne Pollard wrote:

> ./configure: 2340: test: xyes: unexpected operator

Checking for this sounds like a job for Debian's build log checks,
could you contact the maintainer with the appropriate information (tag
name, regex, description)?

https://qa.debian.org/bls/

-- 
bye,
pabs

https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise


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Re: Please more fish (was: so long and thanks for all the fish)

[Christoph Anton Mitterer]

On Sat, 2014-11-08 at 23:30 -0500, Michael Gilbert wrote: 
> No accusation, just a statement of fact.  Four ctte members were
> complicit in the vote [0]
Well maybe I read that ruling wrong, but didn't it more or less say
"we're not deciding anything right now"?

And even if that decision would be the sole reason for Joey to leave
(which I don't know whether it is, but I'd guess it's probably not)...
the tech-ctte member probably decide to their best knowledge.
And especially they cannot, nor should say, make their decision based on
the fear that otherwise XYZ might leave.
And I'm absolutely *not* implying that this happened here - but since
you accuse the tech-ctte (or some of it's members) to be responsible for
Joey to leave, it probably needed to be said.


> No, the fire is not systemd, it is the politicization of the project
> via ctte and GR rather than patient evolution of the best technical
> solution.
And you really believe that this would have been ever solved by
evolution? I strongly doubt.
You see how some people insist on sysvinit these days - sometimes (not
always) it looks they'd only do so to be against systemd.
You also see how many people were in favour of upstart - and I doubt
that Shuttleworth would have basically killed the project as he did
(quite quickly) after the decision, though he could have prevented so
many useless fights from happening in Debian... o.O

All of these systems were capable of booting a Linux,... and you really
think one of them would have won sooner or later by technical evolution?
I doubt. The technical superior system was IMHO rather clear from the
beginning,... and it were political reasons that prevented it from
winning immediately.


> >> The legitimacy of the technical committee has been entirely destroyed
> >> by misguided acts over the last year.
> >
> > Well others would say that decisions had to be made, and the best that
> > was possible might have been done?
> 
> Sometimes the best decision is none at all.
Sometimes,... but in many other cases it's also the worst choice.
We have so many things that would have never come true if not a single
decision in favour of them would have been made.
Basically everything which spans more than a few (unrelated) packages
needs this.

Look at the controversial proposals for some security things I've made
in the past,... I usually had the feeling that people in principle
agreed that it would be a good thing to take action there, but since all
of them require quite some work in many fields and no decision was made,
nothing of these will ever be solved.


> It can sometimes take a
> lot of time for the right solution to evolve, but that requires
> patience, and the project seems to have lost that quality.
This can however also mean that we always stand still, and just pursue
the evolutions that others made.
Never wondered why things like systemd or upstart didn't originate in
Debian?

Cheers,
Chris.


smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature

Re: Please more fish (was: so long and thanks for all the fish)

[Michael Gilbert]

On Sun, Nov 9, 2014 at 12:01 AM, Christoph Anton Mitterer wrote:
> On Sat, 2014-11-08 at 23:30 -0500, Michael Gilbert wrote:
>> No accusation, just a statement of fact.  Four ctte members were
>> complicit in the vote [0]
>
> Well maybe I read that ruling wrong, but didn't it more or less say
> "we're not deciding anything right now"?
>
> And even if that decision would be the sole reason for Joey to leave

Please actually read Joey's message to understand his concern, which
is not at all about content or systemd, but the harmful actions of
some project members and the complicity of others in those actions
over some significant time now.

Best wishes,
Mike


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Packaging of web apps: bower, yeoman...

[olivier sallou]

Hi,
I'd like to know if some developper already packaged web apps using
bower/yeoman. Those tools are more and more popular in web development to
get web related libraries and , with Grunt,
concatenate/minify/obscorate/... used libraries.
The issue is, like npm, maven or other tools, they download resources from
internet to create a local structure of file (js, css, ...) used later on
for minification etc... This is against Debian policy for packaging
(getting files from Internet).

We can of course disable from upstream source the download of resources, to
use local packaged libraries, but this does not give to bower for later
postprocessing the expected directory structure.

So I wonder what others usually do for those apps (if any have already
 packaged such web apps).

Thanks

Olivier