Re: Upgrade troubles with Perl

[Christoph Biedl]

Paul Wise wrote...

> On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 6:33 AM, Christoph Biedl wrote:
> 
> > In 5.18, upstream decided to discourage usage of smart matches and
> > given..when after these have existed since 5.10 (or: more than six
> > years) by marking them as experimental, and did this in a very harsh
> > way. This will drive me away from using Perl as my preferred
> > programming language.
> 
> I'm using this comment and one-liner to workaround this issue:
> 
> # Silence warnings about smartmatch being experimental
> # The smartmatch we use works under recent Perl versions
> no if $] >= 5.017011, warnings => 'experimental::smartmatch';

Yes, but it's one of those "none of them is really charming". 

I did this, but it's BAD. It required changing each affected file. It
hides messages that might be important in a future release. It will
require a second walk through each file.

Upstream's message so far is: "Don't use new features, even if they've
been out for years." I'm not keen on products where the developers
show such an attitude against their users *hint*

Christoph


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Re: systemd-fsck?

[Stephan Seitz]

On Tue, May 13, 2014 at 11:06:10AM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:

Thorsten Glaser  writes:

• no /etc/init.d/$foo (to tabcomplete, no less!) any more

I've been telling people to stop using this for years.  You should stop


Doesn’t matter in mixed environments. Suse SLES11 has the service command 
as well but no tab completion and no package bash-completion.


So what do you think people will use in the end?


service foo  works across Linux distributions, with or without
systemd, and does the right thing.


Of course, as long as you know the name foo. And of course foo in Suse 
may be an other name as in Debian (sshd <-> ssh).



• the init system breaking init scripts hand-written by people
  who don’t really know what they’re doing, have not even heard
  of LSB, much less “units”
This was indeed a more difficult transition... which we already did 
years ago when we switched to dependency-based boot.  Which did cause 


We still have init scripts without LSB headers in our environment. No one 
is planning to fix them. There is even new third party software shipping 
init scripts without LSB headers.


Shade and sweet water!

Stephan

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Re: Reminder: deadline for sponsored DebConf14 registration is tomorrow

[Платон Ефимов]

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Bug#748102: ITP: botch -- Bootstrapping helper

[Johannes Schauer]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Johannes Schauer 

* Package name: botch
  Version : 0.1
  Upstream Author : Johannes Schauer 
* URL : https://gitorious.org/debian-bootstrap/pages/Home
* License : LGPL3+ with OCaml linking exception
  Programming Lang: OCaml, Python, Shell
  Description : Bootstrapping helper

Botch stands for bootstrap/build ordering tool chain and allows one to create
and analyze bootstrapping dependency graphs, creates suggestions how to break
dependency cycles and generates a build order.

It includes a range of utilities to:

 - transform Packages and Sources control files
 - set operations (union, intersection, difference)
 - adding and removing specific metadata
 - only pick latest version
 - Packages to Sources
 - Sources to Packages
 - generating self contained repositories (min and max)
 - analysis of Packages and Sources control files
 - diff tool
 - multiarch changes application
 - check multi-arch:same versions
 - create graphs of different types
 - installation sets
 - strong dependency sets
 - dependency closure
 - conversion of graphs
 - buildgraph to source graph
 - graphml to dot format
 - annotation with strong dependency information
 - extract neighborhood
 - extract strongly connected components
 - collapsing strongly connected components
 - analyze graphs
 - find all cycles
 - find selfcycles
 - find amount of cycles through edges
 - find feedback arc set
 - find feedback vertex set
 - find strong articulation points and strong bridges
 - general graph info
 - generating partial order
 - graph rendering
 - graph difference
 - calculate betweenness
 - calculate port metric
 - shell scripts connecting the tools for meaningful operations
 - analyzing cross bootstrap phase
 - analyzing native bootstrap phase
 - create a transition order


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Re: Bug#748102: ITP: botch -- Bootstrapping helper

[Joachim Breitner]

Hi,

Am Mittwoch, den 14.05.2014, 11:39 +0200 schrieb Johannes Schauer:
>  - shell scripts connecting the tools for meaningful operations
>  - analyzing cross bootstrap phase
>  - analyzing native bootstrap phase
>  - create a transition order

cool. Can this also be used in a relative ad-hoc manner to replace the
simple script at
http://anonscm.debian.org/gitweb/?p=pkg-haskell/tools.git;a=blob;f=order-sources.pl
  which does

Usage: $0 ...

Each argument is expected to be a Debian source package directory; the 
debian
directory in a Debian source package directory the control file or the 
.dsc
file of a Debian source. These will be ordered by “obvious” 
build-dependencies
and printed out again.

or does will it require stuff like local repositories to be set up
first?

Thanks,
Joachim

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Re: Bug#748102: ITP: botch -- Bootstrapping helper

[Niko Tyni]

On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 12:39:41PM +0200, Joachim Breitner wrote:
> Am Mittwoch, den 14.05.2014, 11:39 +0200 schrieb Johannes Schauer:
> >  - shell scripts connecting the tools for meaningful operations
> >  - analyzing cross bootstrap phase
> >  - analyzing native bootstrap phase
> >  - create a transition order
> 
> cool. Can this also be used in a relative ad-hoc manner to replace the
> simple script at
> http://anonscm.debian.org/gitweb/?p=pkg-haskell/tools.git;a=blob;f=order-sources.pl
>   which does

> or does will it require stuff like local repositories to be set up
> first?

Heh. FWIW we've been using
 
http://anonscm.debian.org/gitweb/?p=pkg-perl/scripts.git;a=blob;f=perl-5.10-transition/find-rebuild-order

for transition ordering when preparing Perl transitions. That one uses
the system apt cache. I wonder if the Python and Ruby folks have rolled
their own ones too.

A standard tool for doing this is very welcome, thanks for your work
Johannes!
-- 
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Re: Bug#748102: ITP: botch -- Bootstrapping helper

[Joachim Breitner]

Hi,

Am Mittwoch, den 14.05.2014, 14:15 +0300 schrieb Niko Tyni:
> On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 12:39:41PM +0200, Joachim Breitner wrote:
> > Am Mittwoch, den 14.05.2014, 11:39 +0200 schrieb Johannes Schauer:
> > >  - shell scripts connecting the tools for meaningful operations
> > >  - analyzing cross bootstrap phase
> > >  - analyzing native bootstrap phase
> > >  - create a transition order
> > 
> > cool. Can this also be used in a relative ad-hoc manner to replace the
> > simple script at
> > http://anonscm.debian.org/gitweb/?p=pkg-haskell/tools.git;a=blob;f=order-sources.pl
> >   which does
> 
> > or does will it require stuff like local repositories to be set up
> > first?
> 
> Heh. FWIW we've been using
>  
> http://anonscm.debian.org/gitweb/?p=pkg-perl/scripts.git;a=blob;f=perl-5.10-transition/find-rebuild-order
> 
> for transition ordering when preparing Perl transitions. That one uses
> the system apt cache. I wonder if the Python and Ruby folks have rolled
> their own ones too.
> 
> A standard tool for doing this is very welcome, thanks for your work
> Johannes!

the problem is that all these tools probably do things slightly
different. For example yours seem to worry about uninstallability and
looks at packages already present in the distribution (or at least known
to apt) while my tool works on (unpacked or packed) sources lying
around, which are likely not yet uploaded. 

Greetings,
Joachim

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Re: Guile language support in make

[Ian Jackson]

Steve McIntyre writes ("Re: Guile language support in make"):
> Russ Allbery wrote:
> >I think building two separate binaries makes more sense than adding Guile
> >support by default for all the reasons you stated.  We do similar things
> >with Emacs, which has a -nox version to avoid pulling in tons of X
> >libraries, and I think it's more important for make.
> 
> Thinking about the poor people trying to bootstrap things, I'm tempted
> to suggest doing this as two separate source packages. Make is *so*
> far down the bottom of the stack that adding a dependency on another
> language could cause significant problems.

This is what build profiles are for.

Ian.


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Re: Guile language support in make

[Ian Jackson]

Manoj Srivastava writes ("Re: Guile language support in make"):
> Well, I was thinking of build profiles for that.

(Lesson for me: read the whole thread first.)

> I know I can't do that until Jess is released and dpkg 1.17.2 is
>  in stable.

Is it acceptable to put off providing a guile-enabled make.deb until
jessie+1 ?

If not then perhaps you could make two source packages and a script to
turn one into the other.  You could even leave the guileish version
for someone else to build.

(It's a shame that the dpkg developers didn't adopt my suggestion of
[ ] for build-profiles, because that would have been
backward-compatible with old tools.)

Ian.


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Re: Guile language support in make

[Guillem Jover]

On Wed, 2014-05-14 at 13:20:32 +0100, Ian Jackson wrote:
> (It's a shame that the dpkg developers didn't adopt my suggestion of
> [ ] for build-profiles, because that would have been
> backward-compatible with old tools.)

One of the reasons [0] it was not adopted was precisely because it is
not backward-compatible. Try this on a wheezy system for example:

  $ dpkg-checkbuilddeps -d 'unknown [any] [!profile.unset]'; echo $?

the Dpkg::Deps code will parse that as a 'any] [!profile.unset' arch
restriction, other tools might react differently to that.

Though, we took note of your namespace proposal and integrated that in.

[0] 

Thanks,
Guillem


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Re: Bug#748102: ITP: botch -- Bootstrapping helper

[Johannes Schauer]

Hi,

Quoting Joachim Breitner (2014-05-14 12:39:41)
> cool. Can this also be used in a relative ad-hoc manner to replace the
> simple script at
> http://anonscm.debian.org/gitweb/?p=pkg-haskell/tools.git;a=blob;f=order-sources.pl
>   which does
> 
> Usage: $0 ...
> 
> Each argument is expected to be a Debian source package directory; 
> the debian
> directory in a Debian source package directory the control file or 
> the .dsc
> file of a Debian source. These will be ordered by “obvious” 
> build-dependencies
> and printed out again.
> 
> or does will it require stuff like local repositories to be set up
> first?

I can't speak about your specific haskell use case but in general, the problem
is that dependencies of binary packages get autogenerated during build time and
are not explicitly expressed in debian/control. Thus, a debian/control file
doesnt help to find a correct solution in all cases.

That botch can create transition orders is just a side product of the other
things it does. I verify botch's output by comparing it with the output of ben.
But ben also needs a repository as input.

The best thing both tools can do is to give you an order for the old, existing
packages and hope that your new packages depend on each other in the same way.

cheers, josch


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Re: systemd-fsck?

[Guido Günther]

On Tue, May 13, 2014 at 04:31:28PM +0200, Thorsten Glaser wrote:
> On Tue, 13 May 2014, Josselin Mouette wrote:
> 
> > My opinion is that many users are migrating away from Debian because we
> > are unable to make decisions on important technical topics and leave
> > them with 3 different setups, none of which actually work, instead of
> > providing one that is correctly polished.
> 
> That’s precisely the GNOME 3 attitude (“no themes allowed in GTK+3”,
> “our way or the highway”). I’m not surprised it’s also systemd’s, and
> yours.

GTK+3 supports themes

https://developer.gnome.org/gtk3/3.12/gtk-migrating-GtkStyleContext.html

and they can even be configured graphically via gnome-tweak-tool.

> And I say you’re wrong. This does not belong into Debian itself. This
> is a perfectly fine job for a derivate or Pure Blend: to provide a
> polished system that serves one use case well.

Proper integration certainly belongs into Debian or did we become a
supermarket:

http://joeyh.name/blog/entry/the_supermarket_thing/

Cheers,
 -- Guido


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Re: Bug#748102: ITP: botch -- Bootstrapping helper

[Johannes Schauer]

Hi,

Quoting Niko Tyni (2014-05-14 13:15:59)
> Heh. FWIW we've been using
> http://anonscm.debian.org/gitweb/?p=pkg-perl/scripts.git;a=blob;f=perl-5.10-transition/find-rebuild-order
> 
> for transition ordering when preparing Perl transitions. That one uses
> the system apt cache. I wonder if the Python and Ruby folks have rolled
> their own ones too.

from reading the "DESCRIPTION" section it seems that botch is able to do the
same thing but without the drawback listed in "BUGS AND LIMITATIONS". In case
you ever run into trouble with that perl script and want to evaluate other
options, feel free to contact me.

cheers, josch


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Re: Guile language support in make

[Steve McIntyre]

On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 01:16:05PM +0100, Ian Jackson wrote:
>Steve McIntyre writes ("Re: Guile language support in make"):
>> Russ Allbery wrote:
>> >I think building two separate binaries makes more sense than adding Guile
>> >support by default for all the reasons you stated.  We do similar things
>> >with Emacs, which has a -nox version to avoid pulling in tons of X
>> >libraries, and I think it's more important for make.
>> 
>> Thinking about the poor people trying to bootstrap things, I'm tempted
>> to suggest doing this as two separate source packages. Make is *so*
>> far down the bottom of the stack that adding a dependency on another
>> language could cause significant problems.
>
>This is what build profiles are for.

ACK, and I should have remembered that. Once we get all the bits
needed in stable, it'll help a lot.

-- 
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You raise the blade, you make the change... You re-arrange me 'til I'm sane...


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Re: Nftables in jessie?

[Arturo Borrero Gonzalez]

On 8 May 2014 19:16, Frank Bauer  wrote:
> Unfortunately, the userspace tools (nftables) are still missing even in
> sid/experimental.

Just to let you know: nftables is now on Debian [0].

Comments are welcome :)

[0] http://packages.qa.debian.org/n/nftables.html
-- 
Arturo Borrero González


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position independent executable issue

[Jerome BENOIT]

Hello List,

for one of the Debian package that I maintained, bibtool to name it, it appears 
that
the added option -pie (aka --pic-executable) caused some issue: #747519

While the upstream source is not subject to the reported bug, adding the 
hardening
options renders the upstream source subject to it: a closer look enables to 
isolate
the options `-pie' as the faulty one.

Any hint to deal with this kind of issue ?

Best wishes,
Jerome


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Re: mirror.debian.net down?

[Luca Filipozzi]

On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 02:48:12PM +, Luca Filipozzi wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 12:00:55AM +0100, Steven Chamberlain wrote:
> > On 29/04/14 23:22, Luca Filipozzi wrote:
> > If there is any more you can tell me about this DNS zone, it would be
> > nice to document it better at https://wiki.debian.org/DebianGeoMirror
> > If it is deprecated (as is geomirror.debian.net) that could be mentioned
> > there.  I'm curious how the list of mirrors is maintained, too.
> 
> So am I.  It used to be a dynamic zone but hasn't seen updates in almost 2
> years.  It should go away, IMO.

In consultation with the mirror team, I will be dropping the mirror.debian.net
zone, today.

-- 
Luca Filipozzi
http://www.crowdrise.com/SupportDebian


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Re: systemd-fsck?

[Matthias Urlichs]

Hi,

Russ Allbery:
> > How difficult would it be, for the sake of compatibility if nothing
> > else, to teach su not to create a new PAM session when it doesn't
> > already run within one?
> 
> You don't want to do that in general since that defeats the primary
> purpose of su: creating a new session as a different user.
> 
That's exactly my point. *In general*.

I see two cases here.

* I'm a logged-in user and use su to run … whatever.
  In this case, whether it creates a new session or not doesn't matter
  (because there already is one), so one more cannot add more blockage to
  hibernation et al. than there already is.

* I'm a startup script or cron job.
  For me, su should just set credentials, but *not* create any session
  or similar.

* Oh, wait, there's a third one:
  I'm using su to manually run "/etc/init.d/skeleton start", and expect the
  daemon thus started to hang around indefinitely.

  Not a problem with systemd since it redirects the actual starting-of-the-
  -daemon part to itself, thanks to the LSB function inclusion which IMHO
  every init script should have these days (NB, does Lintian check for
  that?).

> It's sort of an interesting question as to whether you want to set up a
> new session when running a single command.

Since su can't really know whether the command it runs is to be used like
a shell, a one-off, or a daemon, I'm afraid that this question doesn't have
a good answer.

-- 
-- Matthias Urlichs


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Re: systemd-fsck?

[Matthias Urlichs]

Hi,

Thorsten Glaser:
> • no /etc/init.d/$foo (to tabcomplete, no less!) any more
> 
Why you think these are going away? They're not, not any time soon;
and you can still use them when you're running systemd (assuming that you
include the LSB functions, like init.d/skeleton has been advising you for
the last umpteen years), no matter whether you have a native .service file.

And even if your init script is from the stone ages, it won't suddenly
break. More than before, that is.

> • totally different ways to rescue a system that does not boot
>   cleanly any more
> 
You choose the 'rescue' option in your boot manager. Same as now.

In fact, rescuing a system becomes way easier even without learning any
magic tools. For example, when bootup breaks you get dropped into a rescue
shell, same as before. The difference with systemd is that as soon as you
manage to mount that recalcitrant file system, bootup just continues;
you don't actually have to *do* anything to trigger that.

Contrast that to the SysV way where your best way to get a clean startup
in that situation is a reboot.

Anyway, yeah, the tools are different. They're also much more capable;
(wearing my sysadmin hat) I can fix my system / daemon a whole lot
faster than before -- don't ask me how often I had to use strace on some
daemon because its stderr got "helpfully" redirected to /dev/null or,
worse, to an already-recycled log file somewhere.

With a sensible systemd unit file, this becomes a non-issue.

So what *is* the problem?

> And CVS does not need replacing. (git’s got different use cases.)
> 
Frankly, I do not know of a single usecase for CVS which git doesn't
handle *way* better.

-- 
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Re: systemd-fsck?

[Matthias Urlichs]

Hi,

Thorsten Glaser:
> OK. But who says this is to stay? The systemd developers are
> hostile towards legacy stuff in a really intricate way. Take
> not jornal here but something else as example: they support
> running both ntpd and their own thing, to sweeten the deal
> now, but plan on dropping ntpd support later:
> http://www.ohloh.net/p/systemd/commits/335063290
> 
Maybe because ntpd has a different use case, and running a time *server*
on a system with no stable network connection does not make much sense?

This way of arguing is like a hydra.
You refute one, three others pop up.

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Re: systemd-fsck?

[Matthias Urlichs]

Hi,

Thorsten Glaser:
> There’s not really a line between them, you know. (But it was
> nice to have a published list of those people who maybe could
> accidentally be hit by a tactical small-bus…)
> 
I hereby apologize to the list at large for replying to your earlier emails.

*PLONK*.

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Re: Guile language support in make

[Manoj Srivastava]

On Wed, May 14 2014, Ian Jackson wrote:


>> I know I can't do that until Jess is released and dpkg 1.17.2 is
>>  in stable.
>
> Is it acceptable to put off providing a guile-enabled make.deb until
> jessie+1 ?


Talking to various people I was convinced I was overthinking
 this, and as long as there were separate packages for guile, adding
 build profiles to the package as needed would not be a  blocker.

> If not then perhaps you could make two source packages and a script to
> turn one into the other.  You could even leave the guileish version
> for someone else to build.

That would not have been a problem: just adding guile-2.0-dev
 to the installed packages list used to build a guile enabled make (and
 this was reported as a bug as well :-)

However, the cirrent status is that the make-dfsg source package
 builds both make and make-guile; currently without build profiles, and
 once jessie is out I shall add build profiles to the control file. In
 the meanwhile, of anyone is bootstrapping, and needs help,  I would be
 happy to be of assistance.

manoj
-- 
"We're the weirdest monkeys ever." Karl Lehenbauer
Manoj Srivastava    
4096R/C5779A1C E37E 5EC5 2A01 DA25 AD20  05B6 CF48 9438 C577 9A1C


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Re: systemd-fsck?

[Jakub Wilk]

* Matthias Urlichs , 2014-05-14, 17:30:
In fact, rescuing a system becomes way easier even without learning any 
magic tools. For example, when bootup breaks you get dropped into a 
rescue shell, same as before. The difference with systemd is that as 
soon as you manage to mount that recalcitrant file system, bootup just 
continues; you don't actually have to *do* anything to trigger that.


Oh, so the rescue shell disappearing in the least expected moment is by 
design?


--
Jakub Wilk


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Re: systemd-fsck?

[The Wanderer]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On 05/14/2014 12:07 PM, Jakub Wilk wrote:

> * Matthias Urlichs , 2014-05-14, 17:30:
> 
>> In fact, rescuing a system becomes way easier even without learning
>> any magic tools. For example, when bootup breaks you get dropped
>> into a rescue shell, same as before. The difference with systemd is
>> that as soon as you manage to mount that recalcitrant file system,
>> bootup just continues; you don't actually have to *do* anything to
>> trigger that.
> 
> Oh, so the rescue shell disappearing in the least expected moment is
> by design?

I thought of mentioning something in that direction myself.

When I've successfully mounted a missing filesystem in a rescue
environment, I don't necessarily *want* to continue booting immediately;
I might want to check it and see if I can figure out what went wrong,
and/or make notes about what I did to get it working, or fix something
else that I know or suspect will have also gone wrong due to the same
cause and which I want to make sure is working before boot continues, or
any of a number of other things.

I would find having the system automatically continue boot just because
a filesystem got mounted to be quite surprising. At the bare minimum, I
would expect to need to terminate the rescue shell ('exit' or Ctrl-D)
before any such thing would occur. In fact, I would consider the need to
do so to be desirable.

- --
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Secrecy is the beginning of tyranny.

A government exists to serve its citizens, not to control them.
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Re: systemd-fsck?

[Russ Allbery]

Matthias Urlichs  writes:

> I see two cases here.

> * I'm a logged-in user and use su to run … whatever.
>   In this case, whether it creates a new session or not doesn't matter
>   (because there already is one), so one more cannot add more blockage to
>   hibernation et al. than there already is.

PAM sessions are not just for blocking hibernation.  They do many other
things as well.  If you use su to run a command as another user where you
have to authenticate with a password, and you're using pam-krb5, you may
indeed want to create a new session so that your new Kerberos tickets are
properly stored (for NFSv4 access, for example) and removed properly when
that command or shell exits.

(Now, as it happens, in that particular case, I think only calling setcred
will do the right thing if the parent sticks around to call pam_end after
the command finishes.  But I don't believe that's universally the case.)

> * I'm a startup script or cron job.
>   For me, su should just set credentials, but *not* create any session
>   or similar.

Right.  (Or you should use something other than su.)

> * Oh, wait, there's a third one:
>   I'm using su to manually run "/etc/init.d/skeleton start", and expect the
>   daemon thus started to hang around indefinitely.

>   Not a problem with systemd since it redirects the actual
>   starting-of-the-daemon part to itself, thanks to the LSB function
>   inclusion which IMHO every init script should have these days (NB,
>   does Lintian check for that?).

Right.  And I think it does, although I'm not sure.

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)   


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Re: Upgrade troubles with Perl

[Niko Tyni]

On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 12:33:58AM +0200, Christoph Biedl wrote:

> Second, there's a regression in the handling of in-memory file handle.
> Broke my code when giving it a first try on jessie. And I am still
> *very* upset why #747363 should be anything below RC.

I find arguments about bug severity rather fruitless but I guess I should
comment here.

That bug is about a limited set of modules bundled with the Perl core
(IO::Uncompress::*) behaving wrong in certain circumstances (when their
output file handle is an in-memory one.) 

Your justification for the initial severity:critical was that the bug
"breaks unrelated software", but as I explained, programs using the module
(directly or indirectly) are not unrelated software. Severity:critical
is for things that are worse than this bug by an order of magnitude.

Next, the bug doesn't make the whole perl/perl-modules package "unusable
or mostly so" (severity:grave). Even the modules in question are mostly
usable as long as their output is something else than an in-memory file
handle, and there's an easy workaround as noted in the BTS.

That leaves severity:serious, essentially "in the package maintainer's
or release manager's opinion, makes the package unsuitable for release."
As maintainer, I think I'd put the bug in that category if it was a
regression in general handling of in-memory file handles in the Perl
interpreter, or if it was making IO::Uncompress::* totally unusable.

Please note that a non-RC severity doesn't mean wontfix. I expect we'll
backport an upstream fix as soon as soon as one is released.
-- 
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Re: position independent executable issue

[Andrey Rahmatullin]

On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 04:12:09PM +0200, Jerome BENOIT wrote:
> Hello List,
> 
> for one of the Debian package that I maintained, bibtool to name it, it 
> appears that
> the added option -pie (aka --pic-executable) caused some issue: #747519
> 
> While the upstream source is not subject to the reported bug, adding the 
> hardening
> options renders the upstream source subject to it: a closer look enables to 
> isolate
> the options `-pie' as the faulty one.
> 
> Any hint to deal with this kind of issue ?
Find out why the code works incorrectly when compiled with this option and
fix that, or disable the option.

-- 
WBR, wRAR


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Re: systemd-fsck?

[Michael Biebl]

Am 14.05.2014 18:30, schrieb The Wanderer:
> On 05/14/2014 12:07 PM, Jakub Wilk wrote:
> 
>> * Matthias Urlichs , 2014-05-14, 17:30:
> 
>>> In fact, rescuing a system becomes way easier even without learning
>>> any magic tools. For example, when bootup breaks you get dropped
>>> into a rescue shell, same as before. The difference with systemd is
>>> that as soon as you manage to mount that recalcitrant file system,
>>> bootup just continues; you don't actually have to *do* anything to
>>> trigger that.
> 
>> Oh, so the rescue shell disappearing in the least expected moment is
>> by design?
> 
> I thought of mentioning something in that direction myself.
> 
> When I've successfully mounted a missing filesystem in a rescue
> environment, I don't necessarily *want* to continue booting immediately;

I can not confirm this behaviour Matthias describes with v204.

If I have mount point in /etc/fstab which points to a
non-existing/non-available device, systemd *does* drop me into a rescue
shell, but mounting the mount point manually does *not* automatically
make the boot continue.
I have to exit the rescue shell for that.

Michael





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Re: ignoring bugs with no maintainer (Re: Removal of emacs23 from unstable/testing)

[Rob Browning]

Don Armstrong  writes:

> The right solution for these (and other bugs which happen when source
> packages are renamed) is for the bugs to follow the new source package
> name.
>
> Eventually this is the way it will work in the BTS, but doing so
> requires me to complete the postgresql migration work.

I agree (as far as emacsXY and guile-X.Y are concerned).  Anyone should
feel free to reassign them to emacs24 (or guile-2.0 respectively).

Otherwise, I'll plan to do it.

Thanks
-- 
Rob Browning
rlb @defaultvalue.org and @debian.org
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Re: ignoring bugs with no maintainer (Re: Removal of emacs23 from unstable/testing)

[Rob Browning]

Rob Browning  writes:

> I agree (as far as emacsXY and guile-X.Y are concerned).  Anyone should
> feel free to reassign them to emacs24 (or guile-2.0 respectively).
>
> Otherwise, I'll plan to do it.

And I hope it goes without saying, but I'm always happy to have help
dealing with the bugs -- even just proving they still apply is certainly
helpful.

Thanks
-- 
Rob Browning
rlb @defaultvalue.org and @debian.org
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Re: position independent executable issue

[Jerome BENOIT]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hello Andrey,

thanks for your reply.

On 14/05/14 19:51, Andrey Rahmatullin wrote:
> On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 04:12:09PM +0200, Jerome BENOIT wrote:
>> Hello List,
>> 
>> for one of the Debian package that I maintained, bibtool to name
>> it, it appears that the added option -pie (aka --pic-executable)
>> caused some issue: #747519
>> 
>> While the upstream source is not subject to the reported bug,
>> adding the hardening options renders the upstream source subject to
>> it: a closer look enables to isolate the options `-pie' as the
>> faulty one.
>> 
>> Any hint to deal with this kind of issue ?
> Find out why the code works incorrectly when compiled with this
> option and fix that,

I will first try this approach.


 or disable the option.
> 

Best wishes,
Jerome
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Re: mirror.debian.net down?

[Steven Chamberlain]

On 14/05/14 15:25, Luca Filipozzi wrote:
> In consultation with the mirror team, I will be dropping the mirror.debian.net
> zone, today.

Oh, that's unfortunate.  And odd to remove the service on such short
notice, unless I'm really the only person using it.

It may have been preferable to replace the zone with CNAMEs (one
wildcard record for each country that existed before, i.e.
*.{$country}.mirror.debian.net.) all to any one mirror's hostname, e.g.
ftp.debian.org.  Then it could stay functional in the long term for
anyone who might be using it.

Perhaps even http.debian.net, if Raphael wouldn't mind setting up the
(many) necessary wildcard virtual host to make it work.

Regards,
-- 
Steven Chamberlain
ste...@pyro.eu.org


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Re: Nftables in jessie?

[Frank Bauer]

On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 4:06 PM, Arturo Borrero Gonzalez
 wrote:
>
> Just to let you know: nftables is now on Debian [0].

Great news!
Now I will let this and the fixed kernel 3.14 migrate to jessie and
start playing...

Frank


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Re: systemd-fsck?

[Marc Haber]

On Tue, 13 May 2014 20:08:18 +0100, "Adam D. Barratt"
 wrote:
>adam@wheezy:~$ service 

|[6/505]mh@swivel:~/transfer$ service  
|.directorykarte4.png
|fotovoltaik.png   lageplan.png
|karte1.pngpdns-backend-mysql_3.1-4.log
|karte2.pngxing.png
|karte3.png
|[6/505]mh@swivel:~/transfer$ service 

Greetings
Marc
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Mannheim, Germany  | Beginning of Wisdom " | http://www.zugschlus.de/
Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fon: *49 621 72739834


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Re: Re: mirror.debian.net down?

[Raphael Geissert]

Hi,

On Wednesday 14 May 2014 19:39:52 Steven Chamberlain wrote:
[...]
> Perhaps even http.debian.net, if Raphael wouldn't mind setting up the
> (many) necessary wildcard virtual host to make it work.

I don't think there are many users of $cc.$arch.mirror.debian.net, but if 
anyone fancies adding the DNS entries, http.d.n should now be accepting 
anything with *.mirror.debian.net, and mirror.debian.net itself.
(a single wildcard suffices :)

Cheers,
-- 
Raphael Geissert - Debian Developer
www.debian.org - get.debian.net


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Re: systemd-fsck?

[Marc Haber]

On Tue, 13 May 2014 17:28:27 +0200, Vincent Bernat 
wrote:
> ? 13 mai 2014 15:01 +0200, Marc Haber  :
>>>Thank you so much for volunteering to contribute to GNOME packaging and
>>>to make it work on configurations nobody will actually ever use.
>>>
>>>We are eagerly waiting for your patches.
>>
>> This sort of behavior is precisely why many users are migrating away
>> from Debian.
>
>Could you please stop FUD? Do you have some reference for this claim?

I know at least two of them. And I, for myself, have greatly reduced
my efforts to report bugs in Debian since I alredy know the reaction
of many maintainers.

Greetings
Marc
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Re: mirror.debian.net down?

[Steven Chamberlain]

On 14/05/14 22:24, Raphael Geissert wrote:
> I don't think there are many users of $cc.$arch.mirror.debian.net, [...]

I don't think anyone can really know this currently?

> but if 
> anyone fancies adding the DNS entries, http.d.n should now be accepting 
> anything with *.mirror.debian.net, and mirror.debian.net itself.

Thanks, Raphael.  Please Luca would you consider adding CNAMEs for the
deleted *.{$arch}.mirror.debian.net. RRSETs all to http.debian.net.?

(I was wrong in my last mail, it would be *.{$arch} not *.{$country})

If this was done, Raphael could probably check his logs to see how much
it is really being used nowadays.  And it would continue working.

Thanks,
Regards,
-- 
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ste...@pyro.eu.org


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Re: mirror.debian.net down?

[Luca Filipozzi]

On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 10:39:39PM +0100, Steven Chamberlain wrote:
> On 14/05/14 22:24, Raphael Geissert wrote:
> > I don't think there are many users of $cc.$arch.mirror.debian.net, [...]
> 
> I don't think anyone can really know this currently?

I looked at the logs on ns1.debian.org through ns4.debian.org for the last
week.  Not a single request that wasn't for SOA or RRSIG or DNSKEY, all from
debian machines.

Some may have gone to easydns' name servers, I suppose, but the debian
nameservers were still set as authoritative.

> > but if anyone fancies adding the DNS entries, http.d.n should now be
> > accepting anything with *.mirror.debian.net, and mirror.debian.net itself.
> 
> Thanks, Raphael.  Please Luca would you consider adding CNAMEs for the
> deleted *.{$arch}.mirror.debian.net. RRSETs all to http.debian.net.?
> 
> (I was wrong in my last mail, it would be *.{$arch} not *.{$country})
> 
> If this was done, Raphael could probably check his logs to see how much
> it is really being used nowadays.  And it would continue working.

You may have been the only user.  Let's see if someone else also comments.

-- 
Luca Filipozzi
http://www.crowdrise.com/SupportDebian


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Re: mirror.debian.net down?

[Steven Chamberlain]

On 14/05/14 23:00, Luca Filipozzi wrote:
> I looked at the logs on ns1.debian.org through ns4.debian.org for the last
> week.  Not a single request that wasn't for SOA or RRSIG or DNSKEY, all from
> debian machines.
>
> Some may have gone to easydns' name servers, I suppose, but the debian
> nameservers were still set as authoritative.

Didn't that seem suspicious?  In a whole week not even a single query by
a webcrawler/spambot?

AFAICT *only* easynet's and one rcode0.net nameserver serve as
authoritatve nameservers for the debian.net SOA?  So unless something
changed recently, it is expected you would see ns[1-4].debian.org only
doing zone transfers but not serving legitimate queries?

In the last week at least 13 of my own servers/VMs at two sites (each
site has a caching DNS resolver), my desktop and also my laptop from
offsite have been querying this zone, every day.  I debootstrapped a new
chroot using this zone only two days ago.

Regards,
-- 
Steven Chamberlain
ste...@pyro.eu.org


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Re: mirror.debian.net down?

[Luca Filipozzi]

On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 11:32:07PM +0100, Steven Chamberlain wrote:
> On 14/05/14 23:00, Luca Filipozzi wrote:
> > I looked at the logs on ns1.debian.org through ns4.debian.org for the last
> > week.  Not a single request that wasn't for SOA or RRSIG or DNSKEY, all from
> > debian machines.
> >
> > Some may have gone to easydns' name servers, I suppose, but the debian
> > nameservers were still set as authoritative.
> 
> Didn't that seem suspicious?  In a whole week not even a single query by
> a webcrawler/spambot?
> 
> AFAICT *only* easynet's and one rcode0.net nameserver serve as
> authoritatve nameservers for the debian.net SOA?  So unless something
> changed recently, it is expected you would see ns[1-4].debian.org only
> doing zone transfers but not serving legitimate queries?

mirror.debian.net was delegated.

> In the last week at least 13 of my own servers/VMs at two sites (each
> site has a caching DNS resolver), my desktop and also my laptop from
> offsite have been querying this zone, every day.  I debootstrapped a new
> chroot using this zone only two days ago.

I'll put it back in for a week, see what queries we get.

-- 
Luca Filipozzi
http://www.crowdrise.com/SupportDebian


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Re: systemd-fsck?

[Roger Lynn]

On 13/05/14 20:30, Salvo Tomaselli wrote:
> In data martedì 13 maggio 2014 19:42:32, David Goodenough ha scritto:
>> > service foo  works across Linux distributions, with or without
>> > systemd, and does the right thing.
>> 
>> The big shame with service is that tab completion does not work properly.
>> If I use /etc/init.d/ then tab tells me what is there and spells it right.
> 
> You should install bash-completion

Bash-completion has never worked for me from a root prompt.

Roger


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Re: mirror.debian.net down?

[Steven Chamberlain]

On 14/05/14 23:34, Luca Filipozzi wrote:
>> In the last week at least 13 of my own servers/VMs at two sites (each
>> site has a caching DNS resolver), my desktop and also my laptop from
>> offsite have been querying this zone, every day.  I debootstrapped a new
>> chroot using this zone only two days ago.
> 
> I'll put it back in for a week, see what queries we get.

*Thank you*.  There should have been queries already from at least 2 IPs
(or possibly IPv6) where I have servers that have just done a successful
'apt-get update'.

Regards,
-- 
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ste...@pyro.eu.org


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Re: systemd-fsck?

[Russ Allbery]

Roger Lynn  writes:
> On 13/05/14 20:30, Salvo Tomaselli wrote:
>> In data martedì 13 maggio 2014 19:42:32, David Goodenough ha scritto:

 service foo  works across Linux distributions, with or without
 systemd, and does the right thing.

>>> The big shame with service is that tab completion does not work properly.
>>> If I use /etc/init.d/ then tab tells me what is there and spells it right.

>> You should install bash-completion

> Bash-completion has never worked for me from a root prompt.

bash-completion is loaded from /etc/profile, which is only sourced by bash
for a login shell.  I suspect that you're using su, which does not create
a login shell.  In that case, only /etc/bash.bashrc is sourced, and its
code to load bash-completion for interactive shells is commented out.  (I
don't know why.)

I just confirmed that bash-completion works properly with service as root
if you run . /etc/profile.d/bash_completion.sh first.

-- 
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Re: Guile language support in make

[Wookey]

+++ Manoj Srivastava [2014-05-10 23:00 -0700]:
> 
> <#secure method=pgpmime mode=sign>
> On Sun, May 11 2014, Steve McIntyre wrote:
> 
> > Thinking about the poor people trying to bootstrap things, I'm tempted
> > to suggest doing this as two separate source packages. Make is *so*
> > far down the bottom of the stack that adding a dependency on another
> > language could cause significant problems.
> 
> Well, I was thinking of build profiles for that.

Thanks for doing this, it's nice when maintainers remember to consider
this stuff, and this mechanism was created to deal with exactly this
problem (but in a sufficiently general way to be useful for other
things too).

> --8<---cut here---start->8---
> Build-Depends: 
>guile-2.0-dev 
> 
> Packagte: make
> Build-Profiles: !withguile
> 
> Package: make-guile
> Build-Profiles: withguile
> --8<---cut here---end--->8---
> 
> I know I can't do that until Jess is released and dpkg 1.17.2 is
>  in stable.

Well, we'd really like people to be able to upload packages using this
syntax to unstable now so that people such as yourself can actually
start to use it. And also so that we can find any other infra problems
_before_ jessie is released.

Because infrastructure runs on stable, that needs a
stable-point-release or backport dpkg which doesn't barf on this new
syntax. (Doesn't implement it, just allows the syntax whilst behaving
as before). The simple patches for that are in 
https://lists.debian.org/debian-dpkg/2014/04/msg00034.html
 
Backporting current dpkg was not very popular, but no-one expressed
much dissatisfaction with the above minimal fixes to make this useable
in the archive before jessie. More people saying that they'd like to
see this happen will help provide a consensus that we should.

I'm not quite sure who actually controls these things, but my current
impression is that doing a stable point release with this
functionality in is deemed reasonable, and we should get on with it?
Am I wrong about that?

Wookey
-- 
Principal hats:  Linaro, Emdebian, Wookware, Balloonboard, ARM
http://wookware.org/


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Re: Guile language support in make

[Paul Wise]

On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 8:47 AM, Wookey wrote:

> I'm not quite sure who actually controls these things

That would be the stable release team, the processes for uploads to
stable are documented here:

http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/developers-reference/pkgs.html#upload-stable

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pabs

http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise


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arm64 update - help wanted

[Wookey]

The debian-port arm64 rebootstrap is progressing nicely, and we just
passed 4200 source packages built, with another few hundred
pending. There are now 2 buildds running.

In the course of that 344 have failed to build, (see
http://buildd.debian-ports.org/status/architecture.php?a=arm64&suite=sid 
,'Build attempted' section)
many for trivial reasons like 'needs autoconf update'. I need to
concentrate on core stuff like openjdk, swig, kdelibs which are
blocking big swaths of packages, so I haven't got time right now to
wade through all those seeing what went wrong.

Thus I'd love it if anyone else could help go through the failures
pile and file bugs, or upload old existing ones, or classify them on
the wiki. Or if they happen to be your packages then just fix them :-)

I've put some links on the wiki page
https://wiki.debian.org/Arm64Port#Bug_tracking to the ubuntu and
fedora bug lists which will be helpful is there is an actual
meaningful issue to fix (one of them is likely to have done it already
if it's a mainstream package).

Also if anyone has expertise in language porting we'd like to hear
from you. Below is the list of languages we believe still need porting to arm64:

Anyone who is interested in doing this work, or just has some idea of
how much work is involved, do please pipe up (I don't know if each of
these is 6 months or 6 minutes). There is a porter box available.

GHCi (ghc is done, but not ghci - is this hard?)
Go (we have gccgo, but not gcgo)
Mono
GCL
CLISP
Gauche
Pascal
Rust (being investigated)
Erlang
R
D
SBCL
Julia

Wookey
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Principal hats:  Linaro, Emdebian, Wookware, Balloonboard, ARM
http://wookware.org/


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Re: systemd-fsck?

[Jordan Metzmeier]

On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 7:22 PM, Russ Allbery  wrote:
> Roger Lynn  writes:
>> On 13/05/14 20:30, Salvo Tomaselli wrote:
>>> In data martedì 13 maggio 2014 19:42:32, David Goodenough ha scritto:
>
> service foo  works across Linux distributions, with or without
> systemd, and does the right thing.
>
 The big shame with service is that tab completion does not work properly.
 If I use /etc/init.d/ then tab tells me what is there and spells it right.
>
>>> You should install bash-completion
>
>> Bash-completion has never worked for me from a root prompt.
>
> bash-completion is loaded from /etc/profile, which is only sourced by bash
> for a login shell.  I suspect that you're using su, which does not create
> a login shell.  In that case, only /etc/bash.bashrc is sourced, and its
> code to load bash-completion for interactive shells is commented out.  (I
> don't know why.)
>
> I just confirmed that bash-completion works properly with service as root
> if you run . /etc/profile.d/bash_completion.sh first.
>

It's not loaded from /etc/profile by default (which would probably
throw errors with other shells since all login shells source
/etc/profile). The default /etc/skel/.bashrc contains the following:

# enable programmable completion features (you don't need to enable
# this, if it's already enabled in /etc/bash.bashrc and /etc/profile
# sources /etc/bash.bashrc).
if ! shopt -oq posix; then
  if [ -f /usr/share/bash-completion/bash_completion ]; then
. /usr/share/bash-completion/bash_completion
  elif [ -f /etc/bash_completion ]; then
. /etc/bash_completion
  fi
fi


That is why it works for user accounts but not for root by default. As
the comment suggests you can uncomment the same code block in
/etc/bash.bashrc. It would be nice if the default /root/.bashrc
contained the same snippet. I am not sure how the initial
/root/.bashrc gets put in place or where root's default lives. I
assume it is done by d-i?

Regards,
Jordan Metzmeier


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Re: systemd-fsck?

[Russ Allbery]

Jordan Metzmeier  writes:

> It's not loaded from /etc/profile by default (which would probably
> throw errors with other shells since all login shells source
> /etc/profile).

It is for me, via:

if [ -d /etc/profile.d ]; then
  for i in /etc/profile.d/*.sh; do
if [ -r $i ]; then
  . $i
fi
  done
  unset i
fi

See /etc/profile.d/bash_completion.sh.

However, I agree with the rest of your analysis.

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