Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Svante Signell]

On Wed, 2014-02-12 at 20:16 +1300, Chris Bannister wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 04:18:50PM +0100, Olav Vitters wrote:
> > On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 03:51:33PM +0100, Salvo Tomaselli wrote:
> > > Well if a bug can be solved by killing the buggy process and getting 
> > > better 
> > > functionality than when the process is running is certainly a very very 
> > > bad 
> > > bug!
> > 
> > As mentioned before: File a bug.
> 
> There is no bug if its not installed. Same happened to me. Purging
> pulseaudio allowed the audio to work once again.

I had to do that on one of my boxes too. I have two audio cards and
pulseaudio/gnome-applets chose the wrong one (did not find the other).
alsamixer works OK :)



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Re: hacking your car

[Zlatan Todoric]

+1 on the subject Russ for DPL

On 2/12/14, Paul Wise  wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 9:35 AM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
>
>> Seriously, Russ, you should be a writer or a politician *. You're a
>> wizard with words. I enjoyed reading that :).
>
> Russ for DPL!
>
> https://lwn.net/Articles/585238/
>
> --
> bye,
> pabs
>
> http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise
>
>
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>
>


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Re: Re: Bug#728859: ITP: gnome-online-miners -- Crawls through your online content

[Dennis Ruhe]

Hi,

Sorry for the late reply.

I have no ambition to join the Debian GNOME team, for the most part I
was looking for a relatively small program to package as a kindof
training. 

I have created the .deb but I don't really have an idea on how to
proceed. I read the packaging guide and everything and it's telling me I
need to find a 'mentor' to ask my questions to etc and upload my
package.

I obviously asked for help in my second message visible here:
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=728859

I don't really understand the logic of the different mailing lists etc.
Your message is not visible on the link I send. My message is not
visible in the thread I found your message on, and then there was some
google groups stuff going on.

Anyway. I got the .deb files, during creation there were some warnings I
yet need to fix. But what now?

Regards,
Dennis




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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Vincent Bernat]

 ❦ 12 février 2014 08:16 CET, Chris Bannister  :

>> > Well if a bug can be solved by killing the buggy process and getting 
>> > better 
>> > functionality than when the process is running is certainly a very very 
>> > bad 
>> > bug!
>> 
>> As mentioned before: File a bug.
>
> There is no bug if its not installed.

Which is the case for most programs. We could close almost all our bugs
on this ground.
-- 
die_if_kernel("Penguin instruction from Penguin mode??!?!", regs);
2.2.16 /usr/src/linux/arch/sparc/kernel/traps.c


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Re: OpenRC

[John Paul Adrian Glaubitz]

On 02/11/2014 09:53 PM, Игорь Пашев wrote:
> The discussions on init system have discovered much energy of
> developers and users,
> so I think they are able to use that energy to support multiple systems :-)

No, please don't. I'd rather have other DDs use this energy and
help me (and paultag) go over mentors to support people getting
their new packages into Debian or adopting orphaned ones.

Mentors is way too often neglected in my opinion.

Adrian

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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Oleg]

On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 03:47:59PM +0100, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
> systemd is used as the default init system in:
> 
> - Fedora
> - Arch Linux
> - Mageia
> - openSUSE
> - SLES (upcoming)
> - RHEL7
> - Frugalware
> - (see Wikipedia)

  And what is this prove? That a small part of a distro dev team choose to use
a systemd? Where are votes of all distro users?

> Plus companies like Intel and BMW are using it in their embedded platforms.

Plus many other companies that doesn't use it. And how embedded platforms belong
to desktops and servers?

> What I don't get is why are those people trying to push Debian's decision 
> when they are primarily using a different platform. But I guess it's pure 
> politics and trying to push their own projects.

  I'm using debian and i don't want to use systemd in any form (with gnome3, 
etc).


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Oleg]

On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 08:37:59PM +0100, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
> On the other hand, what companies and distributions and companies
> actively support Upstart and OpenRC.

  Is this important? Or our way is to make init such a complex, that it
can be supported only by companies? If you want company support use RedHat.


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Oleg]

On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 11:20:55PM +0100, Olav Vitters wrote:
> $ journalctl | grep
> $ journalctl | tail -n 500

grep /var/log/syslog
tail -n 500 /var/log/syslog

Hm... Is this really simplier? O, wait. I can easily copy my log to any other
machine to analyze it there with:

scp /var/log/syslog ...

Why do i need an unneeded layer for this - journalctl?


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its developers and its users. [was: something from util-linux]

[Tzafrir Cohen]

Please avoid the topic that uses the util-linux program,

On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 02:28:55PM +0400, Oleg wrote:

>   I'm using debian and i don't want to use systemd in any form (with gnome3, 
> etc).

Great. gnome3 does not depend on systemd directly. It depends on some
interfaces provided (solely, currently) by systemd. And it's not gnome3
alone.

Go and help reimplement those interfaces (coding, testing, whatever), or
otherwise do something constructive.

-- 
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http://tzafrir.org.il || a Mutt's
tzaf...@cohens.org.il ||  best
tzaf...@debian.org|| friend


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Re: Tired of my fellow SysV supporters

[Kevin Chadwick]

previously on this list Russ Allbery contributed:

> One person in particular is currently creating new throwaway
> accounts at various free email providers to post violent threats and
> invective-filled rants to various project mailing lists. 

Maybe it's Lennart and he's hired a psychologist ;-)

-- 
___

'Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work
together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a
universal interface'

(Doug McIlroy)

In Other Words - Don't design like polkit or systemd
___


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Salvo Tomaselli]

> > There is no bug if its not installed.
> 
> Which is the case for most programs. We could close almost all our bugs
> on this ground.
But the normal case is that uninstalling a software you also stop getting the 
functionality it provides, with pulseaudio you START getting the functionality 
it claims to provide by uninstalling it.

-- 

Salvo Tomaselli

"Io non mi sento obbligato a credere che lo stesso Dio che ci ha dotato di
senso, ragione ed intelletto intendesse che noi ne facessimo a meno."
-- Galileo Galilei

http://ltworf.github.io/ltworf/


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Re: its developers and its users. [was: something from util-linux]

[Oleg]

On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 11:51:38AM +0100, Tzafrir Cohen wrote:
> >   I'm using debian and i don't want to use systemd in any form (with 
> > gnome3, 
> > etc).
> 
> Great. gnome3 does not depend on systemd directly. It depends on some
> interfaces provided (solely, currently) by systemd. And it's not gnome3
> alone.
> 
> Go and help reimplement those interfaces (coding, testing, whatever), or
> otherwise do something constructive.

  I do my job. And i have no enough time to do a job of others. This is a
strange logic: if something goes wrong, we must throw our work and do a work
of others.


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Re: its developers and its users. [was: something from util-linux]

[John Paul Adrian Glaubitz]

On 02/12/2014 12:26 PM, Oleg wrote:
>   I do my job. And i have no enough time to do a job of others. This is a
> strange logic: if something goes wrong, we must throw our work and do a work
> of others.

But you obviously have enough time to join this discussion and ask
questions that have been answered at least several dozen times.

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sbuild maintenance, bug handling and patch review needed

[Roger Leigh]

Dear all,

I'm afraid that at present I don't have the time or inclination to be able
to give sbuild any real support in terms to keeping up with bug reports,
including those with patches which need review.  There are a number which
could use some attention, particularly those with patches which need
applying and uploading.  I don't want to be a blocker for these things.
I'm also trying to reduce the amount of time I spend typing each day to
mitigate the RSI I'm currently suffering from, and this means the amount
of time I devote to Debian needs to be reduced.

If anyone would be able to take over some of this stuff, I'd be very
grateful.  I'll continue to be available for answering questions and
helping where I am able, but I'm afraid I won't be able to continue as
one of the primary maintainers for the foreseeable future.


Thanks,
Roger

-- 
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 : :' :  Debian GNU/Linuxhttp://people.debian.org/~rleigh/
 `. `'   schroot and sbuild  http://alioth.debian.org/projects/buildd-tools
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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[John Paul Adrian Glaubitz]

On 02/12/2014 11:28 AM, Oleg wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 03:47:59PM +0100, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
>> systemd is used as the default init system in:
>>
>> - Fedora
>> - Arch Linux
>> - Mageia
>> - openSUSE
>> - SLES (upcoming)
>> - RHEL7
>> - Frugalware
>> - (see Wikipedia)
> 
>   And what is this prove? That a small part of a distro dev team choose to use
> a systemd? Where are votes of all distro users?

Those are among the most important distributions which attract most
users and developers. So, it does prove that systemd has already
a large market share.

>> Plus companies like Intel and BMW are using it in their embedded platforms.
> 
> Plus many other companies that doesn't use it. And how embedded platforms 
> belong
> to desktops and servers?

The point is that multi-billion dollar companies invest money into the
development of systemd and therefore support and push it which will
mean everyone else who uses it profits from that.

>> What I don't get is why are those people trying to push Debian's decision 
>> when they are primarily using a different platform. But I guess it's pure 
>> politics and trying to push their own projects.
> 
>   I'm using debian and i don't want to use systemd in any form (with gnome3, 
> etc).

That's ok, you don't have to use it. Yet, we have chosen it to be the
default and you should accept that.

Thanks!

Adrian

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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[John Paul Adrian Glaubitz]

On 02/12/2014 11:33 AM, Oleg wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 08:37:59PM +0100, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
>> On the other hand, what companies and distributions and companies
>> actively support Upstart and OpenRC.
> 
>   Is this important?

Yes, it is. Large market share means large interest of developers
means steady and fast progress.

> Or our way is to make init such a complex, that it
> can be supported only by companies?

No. You are turning my argument upside down.

> If you want company support use RedHat.

If you want to use sysvinit, don't use Debian.

Adrian

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Re: Unreleased libraries

[Jean-Michel Vourgère]

On Saturday 08 February 2014 09:01:46 Tzafrir Cohen wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 07, 2014 at 10:41:56AM -0600, Michael Shuler wrote:
> > On 02/07/2014 10:25 AM, Pau Garcia i Quiles wrote:
> > >Is there a policy on how to package software that does not make releases?
> > 
> > A version similar to skia_0.0-1~svnr1234 would allow an upstream
> > version of i.e. 0.1 (if they ever release) to supersede your
> > packaged version. It should also allow you to upgrade via new svn
> > version (0.0-1~svnr1235), as well as new packaging of same svn
> > version (0.0-2~svnr1234).  Please, correct me, if there is a better
> > method, here!
> 
> One other thing to keep in mind: what if they switch to git?

You could use a more generic prefix like vcs, I guess.

Something like 0+vcs20140212-1 would use the snapshoot as "upstream", while
allowing you to change the debian part, unlike a native package.

Using the ~ non-trivial system is not needed, since any release
version would be greater than "0" anyways.
Still, ~ shows it's a pre-release, so it makes sense too.

Just my noob 2 cents. ^^


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[John Paul Adrian Glaubitz]

On 02/12/2014 11:53 AM, Oleg wrote:
> Why do i need an unneeded layer for this - journalctl?

We have discussed this over and over again and there is tons
of documentation and discussions explaining the reasoning
behind that.

Please do your homework yourself and stop asking the same
questions over and over again.

Adrian

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Re: its developers and its users. [was: something from util-linux]

[Oleg]

On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 12:32:55PM +0100, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
> On 02/12/2014 12:26 PM, Oleg wrote:
> >   I do my job. And i have no enough time to do a job of others. This is a
> > strange logic: if something goes wrong, we must throw our work and do a work
> > of others.
> 
> But you obviously have enough time to join this discussion and ask
> questions that have been answered at least several dozen times.

  Yes. This take less time.


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Re: hacking your car

[Wookey]

+++ John Paul Adrian Glaubitz [2014-02-12 01:36 +0100]:
> On 02/12/2014 01:26 AM, Wookey wrote:
> > Anyone trying to win an argument by suggesting that changing bits of my
> > car is a _bad_ thing has a very cock-eyed view of the world.
> 
> Ever heard of the German TUEV?
>
> Driving a car with arbitrary modifications is illegal in most
> countries. 

Actually Germany has unusually strict requirements in this area. In
germany you are quite right that I can only build my campervan out of a
whitelist of TUEV-approved parts. In the UK I can build it out of
anything I damn well please (to a first approximation - there are
stricter requirements for the gas piping, for example). The testing
requirement is functionality-based, not on approved parts, which is a
very important distinction. Having built a campervan I am very happy
that I was doing it under the UK system. Apart from anything else it
made it a _lot_ cheaper.

I guess our views are coloured by cultural norms here. I was horrified
when I found out about the strictures German camper-builders have to put
up with. You apparently think they are reasonable.

I would be very surprised to find that 'most' countries follow the
German system, rather than the UK/US system, although there is a
worrying trend in that direction over time.

This is getting somewhat off-topic so to refer back to the context:

I don't object to systemd technically, but I am worried about the
world-view of some of its prominent proponents. By arguing the line you
have taken in this sub-thread I am afraid you are just re-inforcing that
bad impression.

Wookey
-- 
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http://wookware.org/


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Re: its developers and its users. [was: something from util-linux]

[Svante Signell]

On Wed, 2014-02-12 at 11:51 +0100, Tzafrir Cohen wrote:
> Please avoid the topic that uses the util-linux program,
> 
> On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 02:28:55PM +0400, Oleg wrote:
> 
> >   I'm using debian and i don't want to use systemd in any form (with 
> > gnome3, 
> > etc).
> 
> Great. gnome3 does not depend on systemd directly. It depends on some
> interfaces provided (solely, currently) by systemd. And it's not gnome3
> alone.

gdm3 for example does, via systemd-logind, why don't you search for bugs
caused by that package!



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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Josselin Mouette]

Le mercredi 12 février 2014 à 12:10 +0100, Salvo Tomaselli a écrit : 
> But the normal case is that uninstalling a software you also stop getting the 
> functionality it provides, with pulseaudio you START getting the 
> functionality 
> it claims to provide by uninstalling it.

Oh really? You get per-application mixing, dynamic output redirection,
bluetooth support, network transparency, all of that with alsa+dmix?

-- 
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: :' :
`. `'
  `-


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Jean-Christophe Dubacq]

Le 12/02/2014 12:10, Salvo Tomaselli a écrit :
> 
>>> There is no bug if its not installed.
>>
>> Which is the case for most programs. We could close almost all our bugs
>> on this ground.
> But the normal case is that uninstalling a software you also stop getting the 
> functionality it provides, with pulseaudio you START getting the 
> functionality 
> it claims to provide by uninstalling it.
> 

No. You get a basic functionality, not all the features provided by
pulseaudio. And I, for one, could never get out of the box mixing of
audio streams when not using pulseaudio. I should have configured this
manually with esoteric writings in a non-existent file (not remove a
comment from a file). Go figure, listening to music and wanting a sound
when I receive a message is not default?

Could we move on from this subject? Unless you have a bug number to back
your affirmations with technical informations (and a date), this is not
useful.

Sincerely,
-- 
Jean-Christophe Dubacq



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Re: its developers and its users. [was: something from util-linux]

[Svante Signell]

On Wed, 2014-02-12 at 12:32 +0100, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
> On 02/12/2014 12:26 PM, Oleg wrote:
> >   I do my job. And i have no enough time to do a job of others. This is a
> > strange logic: if something goes wrong, we must throw our work and do a work
> > of others.
> 
> But you obviously have enough time to join this discussion and ask
> questions that have been answered at least several dozen times.

And you seem to have infinite amount of time defending systemd, please
do some work as Debian Developer too (your hundreds of replies are
annoying)!
http://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=glaubitz%40physik.fu-berlin.de



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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Oleg]

On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 12:24:03PM +0100, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
> >   And what is this prove? That a small part of a distro dev team choose to 
> > use
> > a systemd? Where are votes of all distro users?
> 
> Those are among the most important distributions which attract most
> users and developers.

ok. How this is contradict to this:

A small part of a distro dev team choose to use a systemd and others users are
simply forced to use it.

>  So, it does prove that systemd has already
> a large market share.

  Are we engineers or marketers? I thought we talk about a technical side
of a debian init and not about market and other nonsense. 

> > Plus many other companies that doesn't use it. And how embedded platforms 
> > belong
> > to desktops and servers?
> 
> The point is that multi-billion dollar companies invest money into the
> development of systemd and therefore support and push it which will
> mean everyone else who uses it profits from that.

Again. If these companies invest money into the development of their embedded
platforms init, we must not use it in our desktops and servers.


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Darac Marjal]

On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 12:10:58PM +0100, Salvo Tomaselli wrote:
> 
> > > There is no bug if its not installed.
> > 
> > Which is the case for most programs. We could close almost all our bugs
> > on this ground.
> But the normal case is that uninstalling a software you also stop getting the 
> functionality it provides, with pulseaudio you START getting the 
> functionality 
> it claims to provide by uninstalling it.

Really? Uninstalling Pulseaudio gives you a graphical interface for
moving streams of audio between devices? Uninstalling Pulseaudio gives
you software mixing of audio streams? Uninstalling Pulseaudio gives you
the ability to stream your audio across the network?

Well, yes, if you've done the work to set all that up externally to
Pulseaudio, then of course you don't need Pulseaudio(!)



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Re: its developers and its users. [was: something from util-linux]

[Matthias Klumpp]

2014-02-12 12:26 GMT+01:00 Oleg :
> On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 11:51:38AM +0100, Tzafrir Cohen wrote:
>> >   I'm using debian and i don't want to use systemd in any form (with 
>> > gnome3,
>> > etc).
>>
>> Great. gnome3 does not depend on systemd directly. It depends on some
>> interfaces provided (solely, currently) by systemd. And it's not gnome3
>> alone.
>>
>> Go and help reimplement those interfaces (coding, testing, whatever), or
>> otherwise do something constructive.
>
>   I do my job. And i have no enough time to do a job of others. This is a
> strange logic: if something goes wrong, we must throw our work and do a work
> of others.
So we, who are mostly freelancers and work on Debian *and* our jobs,
should do extra work in order to support sysvinit?
I don't think so... If you want something done, do it. But don't try
to get others to do it for you, unless you want to pay them.

-- 
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systemd - getting started?

[Iain R. Learmonth]

Hi,

I liked sysv-rc for the same reason I still use my TI-89. I know how it
works and I know how to use it. I think I can see the merits of systemd
though.

It would be nice if someone could update the wiki with some links for
getting started though. At present, the wiki makes it look like systemd
is not ready for anything and is incredibly buggy. This probably isn't
helping.

Things that have been fixed should probably be removed from the wiki
page (they'd remain in the history of the page, so we don't lose them).

Things I'd like to see are:

 * A systemd primer (like what is a service file?)
 * Packaging documentation for systemd (some has been started [1])
 * How to hack together a service (this is something I did quite a lot
for homebrew scripts on servers)

There are probably other things that others would like to see too.

I can see a lot of enthusiastic systemd supporters on the list, so I'm
sure someone has the knowledge that I'm seeking.

If someone can even just provide a braindump I'll wikify it.

I'll be packaging a lightweight database system soon and I'm going to
need to know what to do about the init system scripts for it.

Sorry if this has already been covered, but this list has been so active
with argument lately that I may have missed it.

Thanks,
Iain.

[1]: https://wiki.debian.org/Systemd/Packaging

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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Oleg]

On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 12:26:39PM +0100, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
> On 02/12/2014 11:33 AM, Oleg wrote:
> > On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 08:37:59PM +0100, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
> >> On the other hand, what companies and distributions and companies
> >> actively support Upstart and OpenRC.
> > 
> >   Is this important?
> 
> Yes, it is. Large market share means large interest of developers
> means steady and fast progress.

  No, it is not. Market is closer to money, than to stability and technical
beauty.

> > If you want company support use RedHat.
> 
> If you want to use sysvinit, don't use Debian.

  Why? I want to use debian as i used before - with a classic init. I like
debian in the form as it is now. You doesn't like it. May be _you_ should
use an another system, that meet your wishes?


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Thomas Goirand]

On 02/12/2014 03:01 AM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
> Why not stop here with OpenRC and call it day?
> You cannot always win in life :).

Short version:

Why don't you just call it a day, and let me work on what I wish? What
is your problem with me working on it???

Longer version:

Part of why I work on OpenRC is because I find it fun, when I'm tired of
doing the OpenStack packaging (which is maybe 75% made of very
repetitive Python module packaging) and need recreation with my
computer. And doing so, I believe it's producing something useful, and
which seems to gather some interest (which is very hard to evaluate how
much), which is enough to motivate me.

That you don't believe in the technology is a well established point,
and we all got it. Nobody needs another occurrence of this. And the fact
that you don't find this work useful will not change *ANYTHING* to this
Adrian. Even with all what you wrote, you didn't succeed in destroying
the fun I have hacking OpenRC.

This is the first instance I see in Debian of someone trying to convince
another person to *not* work on something. Please give up trying to
convince me not to do what I do, I'm a grown up, and I can decide for
myself.

Thomas


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Re: OpenRC

[Thomas Goirand]

On 02/12/2014 04:10 AM, Simon McVittie wrote:
> Wasn't there some plan to have OpenRC look for its "runscripts" in a
> parallel directory alongside init.d as well as in init.d itself, and
> treat /etc/openrc-init.d/foo (or whatever) as a replacement for
> /etc/init.d/foo? Then you could just say "OpenRC runscripts go in
> /etc/openrc-init.d, LSB-style init scripts[1] go in /etc/init.d" and
> everything Just Works.

This is currently just an idea, but it's not implemented (and nobody has
yet stated intention to start implementing this). I honestly believe it
wouldn't be more than a few lines of C code (it doesn't seem hard to
change a loading path, right? hum... I'm sure it will be different when
looking at the actual code! :)), so it doesn't have my focus right away now.

> If you're keen on using OpenRC, I would strongly recommend that
> approach. systemd ignores /etc/init.d/foo if it finds a corresponding
> foo.service in its own directory, and that feature has made it easy to
> add systemd units (.service files) per-package without needing much
> special coordination. Upstart doesn't do that (/etc/init.d/foo has to be
> patched to not do anything if it detects that init is Upstart and
> /etc/init/foo.conf exists) which has given it much more complicated
> Policy implications.
> 
> If LSB-style init scripts disappear completely after jessie, OpenRC
> runscripts could in principle move to /etc/init.d at that point,
> although I don't really see much benefit in that.
> 
> S
> 
> [1] i.e. the ones that work equally well (or equally badly, depending
> on your point of view) with sysv-rc, file-rc, insserv, Upstart,
> systemd, OpenRC etc.
> 

Probably you are right and I should review my priorities! :)

Thomas


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Re: systemd - getting started?

[Jan de Haan]

Hi Iain,

   I recommend

   http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/systemd-docs.html

   for starters.

Sincerely,

Jan.


On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 12:50 PM, Iain R. Learmonth  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I liked sysv-rc for the same reason I still use my TI-89. I know how it
> works and I know how to use it. I think I can see the merits of systemd
> though.
>
> It would be nice if someone could update the wiki with some links for
> getting started though. At present, the wiki makes it look like systemd
> is not ready for anything and is incredibly buggy. This probably isn't
> helping.
>
> Things that have been fixed should probably be removed from the wiki
> page (they'd remain in the history of the page, so we don't lose them).
>
> Things I'd like to see are:
>
>  * A systemd primer (like what is a service file?)
>  * Packaging documentation for systemd (some has been started [1])
>  * How to hack together a service (this is something I did quite a lot
> for homebrew scripts on servers)
>
> There are probably other things that others would like to see too.
>
> I can see a lot of enthusiastic systemd supporters on the list, so I'm
> sure someone has the knowledge that I'm seeking.
>
> If someone can even just provide a braindump I'll wikify it.
>
> I'll be packaging a lightweight database system soon and I'm going to
> need to know what to do about the init system scripts for it.
>
> Sorry if this has already been covered, but this list has been so active
> with argument lately that I may have missed it.
>
> Thanks,
> Iain.
>
> [1]: https://wiki.debian.org/Systemd/Packaging
>
> --
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>
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>


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Re: its developers and its users. [was: something from util-linux]

[John Paul Adrian Glaubitz]

On 02/12/2014 12:59 PM, Svante Signell wrote:
> And you seem to have infinite amount of time defending systemd, please
> do some work as Debian Developer too (your hundreds of replies are
> annoying)!
> http://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=glaubitz%40physik.fu-berlin.de

Ranked 4th:

> http://udd.debian.org/sponsorstats.cgi

So, I guess I am doing "some" work :).

Adrian

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Re: its developers and its users. [was: something from util-linux]

[Olav Vitters]

On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 12:48:12PM +0100, Svante Signell wrote:
> gdm3 for example does, via systemd-logind, why don't you search for bugs
> caused by that package!

Anyone is free to provide an alternative. There is a fork and it is
planned as an alternative. That GNOME depends on a dbus interface is
awesome. If you don't like it, write or fork an alternative
implementation! Canonical did.

For you, this example shows why "systemd" is bad, for me it shows that
actually doing stuff will change things and that it matters that you
aren't blocked into doing it. GNOME allows such work to happen. If that
work isn't done: nobody found it important enough yet.

Especially the "important enough": Loads of ideas, complaints, etc. Way
more than people doing things.

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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Olav Vitters]

On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 03:42:54PM +0400, Oleg wrote:
> A small part of a distro dev team choose to use a systemd and others users are
> simply forced to use it.

Kind of empty speak. In any distribution you have a small amount of
people who contribute loads of time. E.g. ctte people, etc. If they go
into a certain direction you can change things by providing
alternatives. You aren't forced in any way. It's a default and nobody is
preventing alternatives.

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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Matthias Urlichs]

Hi,

Oleg:
> > If you want to use sysvinit, don't use Debian.
> 
>   Why? I want to use debian as i used before - with a classic init. I like
> debian in the form as it is now. You doesn't like it. May be _you_ should
> use an another system, that meet your wishes?
> 
Since Jessie (at least) will still support sys5-rc, you both get what you
want, within Debian.  So what's the problem? Somebody will be "forced" to
manually install the init system of their choice? How sad(TM).

Snarkiness aside, IMHO it makes much more sense to have the most-featureful
init system be the default, because then those features actually get used
and tested -- and thus the situation will be more reliable than if only
those users/sysadmins switch to systemd who actually _are_ desperate for
its features (as opposed to, say, those who are skeptics but find that they
won't want to miss those selfsame features once they get used to them …).

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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Olav Vitters]

On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 03:57:53PM +0400, Oleg wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 12:26:39PM +0100, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
> > On 02/12/2014 11:33 AM, Oleg wrote:
> > > On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 08:37:59PM +0100, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
> > >> On the other hand, what companies and distributions and companies
> > >> actively support Upstart and OpenRC.
> > > 
> > >   Is this important?
> > 
> > Yes, it is. Large market share means large interest of developers
> > means steady and fast progress.
> 
>   No, it is not. Market is closer to money, than to stability and technical
> beauty.

Empty statement. He meant that market share means that loads of
attention will be given to systemd as well. You'll notice this by the
amount of contributors.

It's quite clear you don't like systemd. But "stability" is vague,
"technical beauty": CTTE determined code quality of both Upstart as well
as systemd is at the same level.

> > > If you want company support use RedHat.
> > 
> > If you want to use sysvinit, don't use Debian.
> 
>   Why? I want to use debian as i used before - with a classic init. I like
> debian in the form as it is now. You doesn't like it. May be _you_ should
> use an another system, that meet your wishes?

This request ignores that CTTE decided on systemd as default.

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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Matthias Urlichs]

Hi,

Oleg:
> A small part of a distro dev team choose to use a systemd and others users are
> simply forced to use it.
> 
(a) then you should have complained / started a GR *instead of* delegating
the question to the TC.

>   Are we engineers or marketers? I thought we talk about a technical side
> of a debian init and not about market and other nonsense. 
> 
Market share correlates with user and developer interest, which correlates
with number of people who work on the program and find bugs and whatnot.
We *do* want an init system which doesn't wither away because upstream
loses interest or doesn't fix year-old fatal bugs, don't we?

> Again. If these companies invest money into the development of their embedded
> platforms init, we must not use it in our desktops and servers.

So, in your opnion, everybody who works on their Debian packages on some
company's time+payroll should immediately stop doing it and leave the project?
You can't really mean that …

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to make debain package

[ANGESH KUMAR]

hello sir,

I want to make a debian package of my software so how to that
one. I couldn't find any proper document. can you help me by document or
link so that i can understand. at last I want to install of my software like
 apt-get install safesquid(my software).so waht i have to do.
i am useing ubuntu 12.04 64 bit.

Thanks & Regards
Angesh Kumar

Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Thomas Goirand]

On 02/12/2014 01:27 AM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
> Don't get me wrong, I really appreciate what you and the other
> maintainers are working on. But I think that it's not leading
> anywhere.

That's entirely your view, and it's fine if you have it. Though *we got
your point* Adrian, no need to insist more. It's perfectly fine if we do
not agree.

> The only advantage I have with OpenRC is its portability

IMO, it's not, though I believe it is useless to discuss it with you.
This very sentence is the proof of that.

Thomas


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[John Paul Adrian Glaubitz]

Hi!

On 02/12/2014 01:04 PM, Thomas Goirand wrote:
> On 02/12/2014 03:01 AM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
>> Why not stop here with OpenRC and call it day?
>> You cannot always win in life :).
> 
> Short version:
> 
> Why don't you just call it a day, and let me work on what I wish? What
> is your problem with me working on it???

My problem is your attitude. I don't have any problems to let you work
on what you want, as I said before, I appreciate your work. However,
I have a problem with how you reacted when it was clear that your
favored system would not be chosen as default. All kinds of accusations
against members of the TC ("OpenRC was not considered at all") and
being huffy like a little child that didn't get what he wanted [1].

My statement about letting go was about you accepting that the TC
has made up their minds, nothing else.

> Longer version:
> 
> Part of why I work on OpenRC is because I find it fun, when I'm tired of
> doing the OpenStack packaging (which is maybe 75% made of very
> repetitive Python module packaging) and need recreation with my
> computer. And doing so, I believe it's producing something useful, and
> which seems to gather some interest (which is very hard to evaluate how
> much), which is enough to motivate me.

Good. At least you're being honest now. It's your hobby.

> That you don't believe in the technology is a well established point,
> and we all got it. Nobody needs another occurrence of this. And the fact
> that you don't find this work useful will not change *ANYTHING* to this
> Adrian. Even with all what you wrote, you didn't succeed in destroying
> the fun I have hacking OpenRC.

Then why on earth are you reiterating your points over and over again
and acted like that when you didn't get what you want? Just accept
it and move on. No one keeps you from hacking on OpenRC and I *never*
said you should stop doing that, as I said in a previous mail, I
appreciate your work.

> This is the first instance I see in Debian of someone trying to convince
> another person to *not* work on something. Please give up trying to
> convince me not to do what I do, I'm a grown up, and I can decide for
> myself.

I was *NOT* trying you to convince you to stop working on something,
you are putting words into my mouth that I never said. I said, you
should stop trying to push your opinion about what should be the
default init system when the committee has already made it's decision.

And now, I'm out of this discussion, the decision has been made and
I have been threatened with violence - twice.

Happy OpenRC hacking (no, don't mean this sarcastically!)

Adrian

> [1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2014/01/msg00340.html

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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[John Paul Adrian Glaubitz]

On 02/12/2014 01:49 PM, Thomas Goirand wrote:
> On 02/12/2014 01:27 AM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
>> Don't get me wrong, I really appreciate what you and the other
>> maintainers are working on. But I think that it's not leading
>> anywhere.
> 
> That's entirely your view, and it's fine if you have it. Though *we got
> your point* Adrian, no need to insist more. It's perfectly fine if we do
> not agree.

Dude, it was you who has been constantly posting on that topic, not
me. Look at the debian-ctte archives. You're - again - behaving
as if you're somewhat more important than I am. Don't be so
derogative and arrogant, it's utterly annoying. Especially when you say
WE as if you're talking for everyone else.

If you ask me to shut up about this discussion, then you yourself
should do it as well. Don't be such an hypocrite.

>> The only advantage I have with OpenRC is its portability
> 
> IMO, it's not, though I believe it is useless to discuss it with you.
> This very sentence is the proof of that.

Please, Thomas, just stop discussing this topic and I will do so
as well. Please, for the sake of peace, ACCEPT that the TC has
made their choice and the choice was NOT OpenRC. And don't take
this as the message to stop working on what you like, but as the
message that the TC has made a decision and you should stop
questioning it. We seriously need to move on!

Again, I don't want to discuss this anymore.

Adrian

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Re: to make debain package

[forum : : für : : umläute]

hi.

On 2014-02-12 13:47, ANGESH KUMAR wrote:
> hello sir,

not exactly ;-)

> 
> I want to make a debian package of my software so how to that
> one. I couldn't find any proper document. can you help me by document or
> link so that i can understand. at last I want to install of my software like
>  apt-get install safesquid(my software).so waht i have to do.

there is various information available in the internet, on how to create
your own packages, see

  https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/maint-guide/index.en.html
  https://wiki.debian.org/IntroDebianPackaging

and do a quick websearch for "debian packaging howto".

this should get you started fast.

> i am useing ubuntu 12.04 64 bit.
> 

then you probably should also search for ubuntu specific information.
esp. check out
   https://launchpad.net/

gfmsdr
IOhannes


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Olav Vitters]

On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 12:28:49PM +0100, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
> Please do your homework yourself and stop asking the same
> questions over and over again.

Agree, I explained various things already in the same thread. There are
indications of people who indicate they don't like the amount of email
and repeated discussions. I don't think it is too much to ask that if
you do participate, you at least read what was already written in this
thread. I'm totally fine to repeat otherwise: not everyone knows every
little detail, was aware of previous threads or remembers everything
that might have been discussed before.

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Re: to make debain package

[Wolodja Wentland]

On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 14:08 +0100, forum::für::umläute wrote:
> On 2014-02-12 13:47, ANGESH KUMAR wrote:

> > I want to make a debian package of my software so how to that
> > one. I couldn't find any proper document. can you help me by document or
> > link so that i can understand. at last I want to install of my software like
> >  apt-get install safesquid(my software).so waht i have to do.
> 
> there is various information available in the internet, on how to create
> your own packages, see
> 
>   https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/maint-guide/index.en.html
>   https://wiki.debian.org/IntroDebianPackaging

I'd like to add the excellent collection of information on
http://mentors.debian.net/intro-maintainers to that list.
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Re: systemd - getting started?

[Petr Baudis]

  Hi!

  In fact, I installed systemd on my jessie system just yesterday.  So
far I filed two (not very major, promptly being dealt with) bugs and
after a lot of initial conservative scepticism, I'm quite excited
especially by journald. :)


  I found switching to systemd trivial by just following:

/usr/share/doc/systemd/README.Debian

After a reboot, I just played with various systemctl, journalctl and
loginctl commands to get a feeling of it.


  My first experience with a service file has been following


https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Systemd_FAQ#Q:_How_do_I_avoid_clearing_the_console_after_boot.3F

(note that on Debian, stock service files live in /lib/systemd, not
/usr/lib/systemd).


  My rsyslog prints all logs to /dev/tty12 and it continued to do that
just fine after a switch to systemd, but I decided I like the color
coding provided by journalctl and thus wrote my first systemd service
file that'll make journalctl run permanently on /dev/tty12, printing new
log entries. I described what I got (after 10 minutes, incl. reading
manual and debugging) on:

http://log.or.cz/?p=327
http://pasky.or.cz/dev/systemd/journal@tty12.service

  Hope that's useful,

Petr "Pasky" Baudis


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[The Wanderer]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On 02/12/2014 07:45 AM, Matthias Urlichs wrote:

>> Again. If these companies invest money into the development of
>> their embedded platforms init, we must not use it in our desktops
>> and servers.
> 
> So, in your opnion, everybody who works on their Debian packages on
> some company's time+payroll should immediately stop doing it and
> leave the project? You can't really mean that …

This reads to me like a language-syntax mistake, one I've seen many
times before from non-native speakers. I think what was meant by the
phrasing was not "If X, then Y", but "Just because X, that does not mean
Y".

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Re: systemd - getting started?

[Iain R. Learmonth]

On 12/02/14 13:53, Petr Baudis wrote:
>   [... lots of useful stuff ...]

Thanks!

That's pretty much exactly the sort of thing I was looking for.

Should give me enough to get started, and I'll give all my knowledge
back to the wiki once I've acquired it.

Iain.

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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Thomas Goirand]

On 02/12/2014 09:31 PM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
> On 02/12/2014 01:49 PM, Thomas Goirand wrote:
>> On 02/12/2014 01:27 AM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
>>> Don't get me wrong, I really appreciate what you and the other
>>> maintainers are working on. But I think that it's not leading
>>> anywhere.
>>
>> That's entirely your view, and it's fine if you have it. Though *we got
>> your point* Adrian, no need to insist more. It's perfectly fine if we do
>> not agree.
> 
> Dude, it was you who has been constantly posting on that topic, not
> me. Look at the debian-ctte archives. You're - again - behaving
> as if you're somewhat more important than I am. Don't be so
> derogative and arrogant, it's utterly annoying. Especially when you say
> WE as if you're talking for everyone else.
> 
> If you ask me to shut up about this discussion, then you yourself
> should do it as well. Don't be such an hypocrite.
> 
>>> The only advantage I have with OpenRC is its portability
>>
>> IMO, it's not, though I believe it is useless to discuss it with you.
>> This very sentence is the proof of that.
> 
> Please, Thomas, just stop discussing this topic and I will do so
> as well. Please, for the sake of peace, ACCEPT that the TC has
> made their choice and the choice was NOT OpenRC.

>From where exactly did you made up that I didn't accept the TC decision?
I wrote already to some of them that I did accept it *before* they did
it (whatever the decision was). Please stop making-up...

Ian Jackson was clear enough, and his input was valuable. I do not
regret I asked.

> And don't take
> this as the message to stop working on what you like, but as the
> message that the TC has made a decision and you should stop
> questioning it. We seriously need to move on!
> 
> Again, I don't want to discuss this anymore.
> 
> Adrian

On 02/12/2014 09:16 PM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
> Good. At least you're being honest now.

To sum up what Adrian wrote, according to him, I'm:
- derogative
- arrogant
- utterly annoying
- hypocrite
- and finally, I wasn't honest before

Well done... ! Anything else?

Adrian, your insults aren't welcome in this list.

Thomas


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Re: Conflict between debian/upstream (DEP-12) & debian/upstream/ (uscan)

[Andreas Tille]

Hi,

On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 04:11:41PM +0900, Charles Plessy wrote:
> Le Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 12:06:42AM -0500, James McCoy a écrit :
> > 
> > That being said, I don't have access to most of the packages.  Even if I
> > did, it feels "dirty" to go and commit to a couple hundred packages I
> > have no involvement with instead of adapting two pieces of software to
> > deal with both path names.
> 
> Hi James,
> 
> you already have commit access to the Debian Med packages, like all other
> Debian developers.  Please go ahead !

I take this "go ahead" for "yes, I accept the move".  While I would have
no problems with this I wonder if it is appropriate to simply go on here
without at least informing Debian Science and DebiChem who also maintain
some d/upstream files.  If I might have sounded against the move in the
past my main problem was that the affected parties were not included into
the decision making process.

So I have put the relevant mailing lists in CC to at least give people
lurking there some heads up and a slight chance to insist.

I would say:  If nobody will insist until after the weekend we might go
ahead.  And for the actual action I agree with Charles that I see no
problem if James would simply commit a change to Debian Med repositories
(SVN and Git).  That's fine and would save us (me or Charles) some work
and is perfectly possible permission-wise.

Kind regards

  Andreas.

PS: I think I did not got any answer to my question about further plans
for the debian/upstream/ dir.  I would be really happy to understand
the big picture to make sure we will not again invent something which
needs to be changed later on.

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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[John Paul Adrian Glaubitz]

On 02/12/2014 03:35 PM, Thomas Goirand wrote:
> To sum up what Adrian wrote, according to him, I'm:
> - derogative
> - arrogant
> - utterly annoying
> - hypocrite
> - and finally, I wasn't honest before
> 
> Well done... ! Anything else?

Telling me to shut up and using sentences like "we get it" while you
keep the right for yourself to continue arguing is derogative, arrogant
and hypocrite, yes.

> Adrian, your insults aren't welcome in this list.

Again, are you the listmaster or DPL or what? You continue to behave
that way, yet you claim those are insults.

You know that you did this before and you apologized to me in private.
If you like, I can post this mail to the public list. You said the exact
same things before and I have heard other Debian Developers who think
the same way about you.

Your problem is that you can't accept defeat. Again, just read your
own post:

> https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2014/01/msg00340.html

Also, please count how often you posted to debian-ctte and how
often I posted to debian-ctte. That's why you're being hypocrite.

Adrian

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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Olav Vitters]

Maybe time for both to agree to take this offlist or just not continue?

I don't think anyone means any harm, but arguing will just result in bad
blood IMO.

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Re: Bug#727708: [DONE] Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Didier 'OdyX' Raboud]

Thomas, John: could you please move your personal argument off-list? 
This thread is already way too long and isn't bringing anything new (or 
positive for what is worth) to the discussion.

Let me also remind you that the purpose of this list is to discuss 
"technical development topics": it can only be useful for this purpose 
if it _stays_ focused on technical development topics.

If someone wants to discuss potential GRs, by all means do it, but not 
on this list: please move it to either -project or -vote [0].

Thanks in advance, cheers,
OdyX

[0] The discussion should have moved there in the first place.

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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[The Wanderer]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On 02/11/2014 12:38 PM, Russ Allbery wrote:

> The Wanderer  writes:
> 
>> In my case: because I want to be able to read them conveniently at
>> a glance, without requiring the presence of a functioning
>> specialized tool for doing so. As the UNIX Philosophy puts it,
>> "text streams ... [are] a universal interface".
> 
> All the folks who are upset about the journal are aware, I hope,
> that, as configured in the current systemd packages in Debian at
> least (I haven't tried a generic upstream install), all journal
> messages are forwarded directly to syslog, right?  All the text files
> that you are looking for still exist in the same form they always
> have.

I believe I've seen that mentioned before, yes. and I'm certainly aware
of it now.

I was responding specifically to the question of "Why do you want your
log files in plain-text format?", which is orthogonal to the question of
whether systemd et al. support logging in such a format.

- --
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Secrecy is the beginning of tyranny.

A government exists to serve its citizens, not to control them.
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Trust and systemd (was Re: Bug#727708, et cetera)

[The Wanderer]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On 02/11/2014 10:15 AM, Olav Vitters wrote:

> On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 09:05:48AM -0500, The Wanderer wrote:

>> I do not trust the systemd project to not do things I consider bad
>> or even insane, because they've already done such things, and they
>> show no regret or repentance over having done so.
> 
> You're talking about yourself and none of what you say contains
> specifics.

I'm talking about myself, because I'm my data point at hand, and because
I can't claim to speak for anyone else. This seems obvious enough that
it should not need to be stated.


I intentionally did not provide specifics, for several reasons,
including but probably not limited to:

* The exact nature of the things I find bad is not relevant to the
question of trust, which is what I wanted to point out, and what I
thought there might be value in discussing.

* I'm far from good at presenting the specifics in question, or at
advocating/arguing for them, and trying to do so anyway before an
actively unsympathetic audience would be stress I don't need.

* Specifics have been gone over many times, here and elsewhere,
including by people far better at presenting and arguing them than I am.
Going over them again would not help; I'm not going to succeed in
changing your mind about anything with them, you're extremely unlikely
to succeed in changing my mind about anything in response to them, and
such a change on one side or the other nothing would in fact change.

* It seemed quite likely that if specifics were brought up at all, the
conversation would be diverted to discussing those specifics, rather
than the question of trust which I was attempting to shine light on.


The specifics in my case take various forms, but in the end they all
boil down to a bare few principles. At bottom, this is a values
disagreement.

I value certain principles highly enough that I would reject some
decisions which the systemd project has (or very strongly appears to
have) taken. For the systemd project to have taken those decisions
demonstrates that they do not value those principles as highly as I do.

Thus, I cannot trust that project to place what I would consider to be
appropriate value on those principles when making future decisions.
Advising me to trust them anyway, without taking this disagreement about
the value of those principles into account, is not constructive.

(Exactly what those principles are, and/or what decisions I would have
rejected because of them, would indeed be necessary in a discussion
about trying to resolve that disagreement. However, I am not presently
trying to do that; I have essentially concluded that doing so either is
not possible, or at least would require more investment than I care to
devote. What I am trying to do is draw attention to the fact that the
disagreement really is about the value of principles, regardless of what
those principles are.)

- --
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A government exists to serve its citizens, not to control them.
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Re: Bug#727708: [DONE] Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[John Paul Adrian Glaubitz]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

On 02/12/2014 04:07 PM, Didier 'OdyX' Raboud wrote:
> Thomas, John: could you please move your personal argument
> off-list?

I already said I wanted to stop posting and asked Thomas to do the
same. I don't want to discuss this anymore since the TC has come
an conclusion. I would like to continue with my sponsoring work
now.

Adrian

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Bug#738740: ITP: simplesnap -- Simple and powerful network transmission of ZFS snapshots

[John Goerzen]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: John Goerzen 

* Package name: simplesnap
  Version : 1.0.0
  Upstream Author : John Goerzen 
* URL : https://github.com/jgoerzen/simplesnap
* License : GPL
  Programming Lang: bash
  Description : Simple and powerful network transmission of ZFS snapshots
 simplesnap is a simple way to send ZFS snapshots across a net‐
 work. Although it can serve many purposes, its primary goal is
 to manage backups from one ZFS filesystem to a backup filesystem
 also running ZFS, using incremental backups to minimize network
 traffic and disk usage.
 .
 simplesnap it is designed to perfectly compliment
 snapshotting tools, permitting rotating backups with arbitrary
 retention periods. It lets multiple machines back up a single
 target, lets one machine back up multiple targets, and keeps it
 all straight.
 .
 simplesnap is easy; there is no configuration file needed. One
 ZFS property is available to exclude datasets/filesystems. ZFS
 datasets are automatically discovered on machines being backed
 up.
 .
 simplesnap  is robust in the face of interrupted
 transfers, and needs little help to keep running.
 .
 nlike many similar tools, simplesnap does not
 require full root access to the machines being backed up. It
 runs only a small wrapper as root, and the wrapper has only three
 commands it implements.


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Bug#738742: ITP: r-cran-segmented -- GNU R segmented relationships in regression models

[Andreas Tille]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Andreas Tille 

* Package name: r-cran-segmented
  Version : 0.3-0.0
  Upstream Author : Vito M. R. Muggeo 
* URL : http://cran.r-project.org/web/packages/segmented/
* License : GPL
  Programming Lang: R
  Description : GNU R segmented relationships in regression models
 This GNU R package provides segmented relationships in regression
 models with breakpoints/changepoints estimation.
 .
 Given a (generalized) linear model, segmented ‘updates’ the model by
 adding one or more segmented relationships. Several variables with
 multiple breakpoints are allowed.


This package is a precondition for r-cran-mixtools and is maintained
by the Debian Med team at

   svn://anonscm.debian.org/debian-med/trunk/packages/R/r-cran-segmented/trunk/


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Kevin Chadwick]

previously on this list John Paul Adrian Glaubitz contributed:

> You know that you did this before and you apologized to me in private.
> If you like, I can post this mail to the public list. You said the exact
> same things before and I have heard other Debian Developers who think
> the same way about you.
> 

I think you need some balance here as much can be flung in your
direction here too.

> Your problem is that you can't accept defeat. Again, 

Defeat? That says it all

If they have decided on systemd as default then I'd like to see the
published reasoning, though I am sure it would annoy me greatly.

The fragmentation of Linux (which includes cortex and blackfin
kernel support) has begun through an idea that was said to unite and
not divide and the benefits are negligible when you consider what
linux can already optionally do.

OpenRC is also more intuitive and easier to CLI and on install
scripts.

Promises of uniting leading to the opposite continues to repeat itself
through human history, it seems.

-- 
___

'Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work
together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a
universal interface'

(Doug McIlroy)

In Other Words - Don't design like polkit or systemd
___


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Salvo Tomaselli]

> Oh really? You get per-application mixing, dynamic output redirection,
> bluetooth support, network transparency, all of that with alsa+dmix?
No, but per application mixing with no sound coming out from the speakers is 
not the most useful thing.

-- 

Salvo Tomaselli

"Io non mi sento obbligato a credere che lo stesso Dio che ci ha dotato di
senso, ragione ed intelletto intendesse che noi ne facessimo a meno."
-- Galileo Galilei

http://ltworf.github.io/ltworf/


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Re: systemd - getting started?

[Bjørn Mork]

"Iain R. Learmonth"  writes:

> Things I'd like to see are:
>
>  * A systemd primer (like what is a service file?)
>  * Packaging documentation for systemd (some has been started [1])
>  * How to hack together a service (this is something I did quite a lot
> for homebrew scripts on servers)
>
> There are probably other things that others would like to see too.
>
> I can see a lot of enthusiastic systemd supporters on the list,

I'm not quite sure I qualify as one :)

But I'd still like to recommend Neil Brown's excellent article series on
LWN:
 http://lwn.net/Articles/584175/
 http://lwn.net/Articles/584176/

You'll have to subscribe to read those now (or wait).  But I assume the
Debian developers group subscription still applies? Ref
http://lwn.net/Articles/13797/

I'm not a DD, so I cannot verify that...  Anyway, LWN is certainly worth
paying for, even if you're not going to use systemd :-)




Bjørn


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Olav Vitters]

On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 04:57:57PM +0100, Salvo Tomaselli wrote:
> > Oh really? You get per-application mixing, dynamic output redirection,
> > bluetooth support, network transparency, all of that with alsa+dmix?
> No, but per application mixing with no sound coming out from the speakers is 
> not the most useful thing.

As said various times before regarding bugs: File a bug.

Your answer does not relate though. The comment was that pulseaudio does
not add any value. Your reply doesn't address this at all, just repeats
that there is a bug, that was established already. Without a bugreport
the bug will not be fixed any time soon. Same as that pulseaudio does
allow you to do lots of new things.

-- 
Regards,
Olav


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Paul Tagliamonte]

On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 03:54:48PM +, Kevin Chadwick wrote:
> If they have decided on systemd as default [...]

https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2014/02/msg5.html

Can we please end this thread?

Thanks!
  Paul

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Bug#738745: ITP: ruby-rubyzip -- Ruby module for reading and writing ZIP files

[Sebastian Ramacher]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Sebastian Ramacher 
Control: block 738676 by -1

* Package name: ruby-rubyzip
  Version : 1.1.0
  Upstream Author : Alexander Simonov, Thomas Sondergaard, etc.
* URL : https://rubygems.org/gems/rubyzip
* License : Ruby
  Programming Lang: Ruby
  Description : Ruby module for reading and writing ZIP files

 Rubyzip is a module for reading and writing ZIP files in Ruby. It
 supports all the basic operations like extracting from ZIP files,
 creating ZIP files and manipulating existing ones. Rubyzip also
 supports ZIP64 files.

If anyone from them Ruby Extras packages team (CCed) wants to take over
the packaging of rubyzip, please do not hesitate. I need it only for
ruby-albacore (#738676) but do not have any other use for it.

Regards
-- 
Sebastian Ramacher


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Need advice on building a package

[Schlacta, Christ]

So I'm working on backporting enlightenment e17 from jessie to wheezy since
my request to backports went unanswered. Anyway, I believe I've found out
why.

Enlightenment is comprised of about a dozen packages, each of which depends
on the previous having been built and installed beforehand. And none of
them are in wheezy by default.

I've had mostly success so far, but I hope to get the process mostly
automated using pbuilder. That's where I'm stuck.

I don't know how to handle this complex dependency of each package on
previous packages in the complex build process

Is there some guide for this somewhere? Some specific search term I should
use? This step has me completely stumped.

Thanks in advance!

Re: Need advice on building a package

[Neil Williams]

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 10:05:41 -0800
"Schlacta, Christ"  wrote:

> So I'm working on backporting enlightenment e17 from jessie to wheezy
> since my request to backports went unanswered. Anyway, I believe I've
> found out why.
> 
> Enlightenment is comprised of about a dozen packages, each of which
> depends on the previous having been built and installed beforehand.
> And none of them are in wheezy by default.
> 
> I've had mostly success so far, but I hope to get the process mostly
> automated using pbuilder. That's where I'm stuck.
> 
> I don't know how to handle this complex dependency of each package on
> previous packages in the complex build process

Keep building all packages in a loop, remove the package from the loop
when it has been built, repeat. The order of the loop barely matters.

The problems are that programs are build-dependencies of libraries
which have -dev packages which are build-dependencies of programs.
There are tools which can identify dependency loops, but for a single
run, it is just as effective to try everything, rebuild everything which
broke and repeat, repeat, repeat.

-- 


Neil Williams
=
http://www.linux.codehelp.co.uk/



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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Oleg]

On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 09:03:54AM -0500, The Wanderer wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA512
> 
> On 02/12/2014 07:45 AM, Matthias Urlichs wrote:
> 
> >> Again. If these companies invest money into the development of
> >> their embedded platforms init, we must not use it in our desktops
> >> and servers.
> > 
> > So, in your opnion, everybody who works on their Debian packages on
> > some company's time+payroll should immediately stop doing it and
> > leave the project? You can't really mean that ???
> 
> This reads to me like a language-syntax mistake, one I've seen many
> times before from non-native speakers. I think what was meant by the
> phrasing was not "If X, then Y", but "Just because X, that does not mean
> Y".

  Yes. The second variant is what i want to say. Thank you. Sorry my
english.


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Oleg]

On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 01:36:14PM +0100, Matthias Urlichs wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Oleg:
> > > If you want to use sysvinit, don't use Debian.
> > 
> >   Why? I want to use debian as i used before - with a classic init. I like
> > debian in the form as it is now. You doesn't like it. May be _you_ should
> > use an another system, that meet your wishes?
> > 
> Since Jessie (at least) will still support sys5-rc, you both get what you
> want, within Debian.  So what's the problem? Somebody will be "forced" to
> manually install the init system of their choice? How sad(TM).

  Who nows what will be in the future... Here some men talk about cost of
simultaneous support of many init systems. So, in the future default init
system may stay stable and working, but alternative ones no.


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Re: Need advice on building a package

[Schlacta, Christ]

On Feb 12, 2014 10:19 AM, "Neil Williams"  wrote:
>
> On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 10:05:41 -0800
> "Schlacta, Christ"  wrote:
> >
> > I don't know how to handle this complex dependency of each package on
> > previous packages in the complex build process
>
> Keep building all packages in a loop, remove the package from the loop
> when it has been built, repeat. The order of the loop barely matters.
>
> The problems are that programs are build-dependencies of libraries
> which have -dev packages which are build-dependencies of programs.
> There are tools which can identify dependency loops, but for a single
> run, it is just as effective to try everything, rebuild everything which
> broke and repeat, repeat, repeat.
>

That's not quite the problem. Insofar as I can tell, all the dependencies
form a nice pretty tree.

I just need the output from each package to build the next, and I'm looking
for an automated way to do that in pbuilder

Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Stephan Seitz]

On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 11:39:06AM +, Darac Marjal wrote:
But the normal case is that uninstalling a software you also stop 
getting the functionality it provides, with pulseaudio you START 
getting the functionality it claims to provide by uninstalling it.

Really? Uninstalling Pulseaudio gives you a graphical interface for
moving streams of audio between devices? Uninstalling Pulseaudio gives
you software mixing of audio streams? Uninstalling Pulseaudio gives you


Alsa is using the DMIX plugin for years, and before that I always had 
soundcards with hardware mixing. Simply buy the proper tools.



the ability to stream your audio across the network?


And if you don’t need these features?


Well, yes, if you've done the work to set all that up externally to
Pulseaudio, then of course you don't need Pulseaudio(!)


Most people simply want to play audio, no streaming, no stream moving, 
etc.


I have a USB soundcard. If I power it on pulseaudio doesn’t recognize it 
or only the analog output (I want to use the digital output). I have to 
restart pulseaudio (even with the current version in Debian Testing).


And now guess what is always working? Right, Alsa. If necessary it takes 
less than 10 seconds to reconfigure the sound device in the application.

So why should I use pulseaudio?

Shade and sweet water!

Stephan

--
| Stephan Seitz  E-Mail: s...@fsing.rootsland.net |
| Public Keys: http://fsing.rootsland.net/~stse/keys.html |


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Stephan Seitz]

On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 01:36:14PM +0100, Matthias Urlichs wrote:
Snarkiness aside, IMHO it makes much more sense to have the 
most-featureful init system be the default, because then those features 
actually get used and tested -- and thus the situation will be more 
reliable than if only those users/sysadmins switch to systemd who 
actually _are_ desperate for its features (as opposed to, say, those who 
are skeptics but find that they won't want to miss those selfsame 
features once they get used to them …).


Well, sounds like pulseaudio which got „forced” on the users and broke 
many setups to find bugs.


Users (at least users from Debian Stable) are not beta testers.

Shade and sweet water!

Stephan

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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Paul Tagliamonte]

On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 04:34:17PM +0100, Stephan Seitz wrote:
> Users (at least users from Debian Stable) are not beta testers.

This is assuming that either:

  1) This is not going to be tested in Debian
  2) systemd is not production quality


I don't think 1 is fair, seeing as how quite a few DDs (who are OK with
doing this change early and fine with being a beta tester, such as
myself) have been testing it for a while.

I also don't think 2 is fair, seeing as how it's enabled by default on
Arch, Fedora, OpenSUSE, RHEL (7, before that is upstart), CoreOS and a
few other derivitives (tanglu, siduction).

Perhaps you're interested in helping "beta test" it in unstable to
ensure your stable use-case works? (If not, that's cool too, just
offering to offer.)

> Shade and sweet water!

Ditto :)

>   Stephan

-T



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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Kevin Chadwick]

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 11:25:14 -0500
Paul Tagliamonte wrote:

> > If they have decided on systemd as default [...]  
> 
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2014/02/msg5.html
> 
> Can we please end this thread?

Sure but perhaps you could save me the trouble to say if there is a
general outline of the factors that the decision made was based upon
perhaops somewhere in the ctte mailing list archive. Or a round up
published before voting.

Don't tell me it was just a vote with licensing issues being taken by
many over real issues as some sites seem to be saying. Do voters give
their primary reasons?


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TC position statements on init systems (was: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.)

[Russ Allbery]

Kevin Chadwick  writes:

> Sure but perhaps you could save me the trouble to say if there is a
> general outline of the factors that the decision made was based upon
> perhaops somewhere in the ctte mailing list archive. Or a round up
> published before voting.

> Don't tell me it was just a vote with licensing issues being taken by
> many over real issues as some sites seem to be saying. Do voters give
> their primary reasons?

Several of us posted position statements.  Here are some links, although
both Ian's and mine were in multiple parts, and this only links to one of
them.  Someone else might have a more thorough collection.

https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2013/12/msg00182.html
https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2013/12/msg00234.html
https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2013/12/msg00296.html
https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2014/01/msg00067.html
https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2014/01/msg00261.html
https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2014/01/msg00310.html
https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2014/01/msg00358.html

Thanks to /u/surrealize on Reddit for collecting the links in one place
where I could find them when searching to see if someone else had done my
work for me.  :)

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)   


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Mi, 12 feb 14, 19:02:00, Kevin Chadwick wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 11:25:14 -0500
> Paul Tagliamonte wrote:
> 
> > > If they have decided on systemd as default [...]  
> > 
> > https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2014/02/msg5.html
> > 
> > Can we please end this thread?
> 
> Sure but perhaps you could save me the trouble to say if there is a
> general outline of the factors that the decision made was based upon
> perhaops somewhere in the ctte mailing list archive. Or a round up
> published before voting.
> 
> Don't tell me it was just a vote with licensing issues being taken by
> many over real issues as some sites seem to be saying. Do voters give
> their primary reasons?

Yes, as far as I recall all TC members have explained their reasoning 
quite thoroughly.

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Sune Vuorela]

On 2014-02-12, Kevin Chadwick  wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 11:25:14 -0500
> Paul Tagliamonte wrote:
>> 
>> https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2014/02/msg5.html
>> 
>> Can we please end this thread?
>
> Don't tell me it was just a vote with licensing issues being taken by
> many over real issues as some sites seem to be saying. Do voters give
> their primary reasons?
>

The link above does have a 'see  for discussion'.
People have said why they have voted what they voted.

Technical reasons seems to have been the primary driver behind it,
though a bit 'how healthy does the project seem to be' has also been
involved.

Licensing was mentioned, but I don't have the impression that it was
neither primary nor secondary concerns.

/Sune


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Matthias Urlichs]

Hi,

Kevin Chadwick:
> > Can we please end this thread?
> 
> Sure but perhaps you could save me the trouble to say if there is a
> general outline of the factors that the decision made was based upon
> perhaops somewhere in the ctte mailing list archive. Or a round up
> published before voting.
> 
The links to the proponents' position statements have been posted.
Multiple times. IMHO all arguments therein were relevant for the TC
members in some way or another.

> Don't tell me it was just a vote with licensing issues being taken by
> many over real issues

Definitely not.

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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Matt Zagrabelny]

On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 1:02 PM, Kevin Chadwick  wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 11:25:14 -0500
> Paul Tagliamonte wrote:
>
>> > If they have decided on systemd as default [...]
>>
>> https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2014/02/msg5.html
>>
>> Can we please end this thread?
>
> Sure but perhaps you could save me the trouble to say if there is a
> general outline of the factors that the decision made was based upon
> perhaops somewhere in the ctte mailing list archive. Or a round up
> published before voting.
>
> Don't tell me it was just a vote with licensing issues being taken by
> many over real issues as some sites seem to be saying. Do voters give
> their primary reasons?

Kevin,

This is what I found. Hopefully it is useful.

Russ' reasoning:
https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2013/12/msg00234.html

Colin's reasoning:
https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2013/12/msg00296.html

Ian's reasoning:
https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2013/12/msg00182.html

Bdale's reasoning:
https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2014/01/msg00067.html

Digging through the mailing list archives to find the remaining CTTE
member's reasoning is left as an exercise to the reader. :)

-mz

PS. I'm looking forward to this thread ending - sorry for adding to it!


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Re: systemd - getting started?

[Matthias Urlichs]

Hi,

Bjørn Mork:
>  http://lwn.net/Articles/584175/
>  http://lwn.net/Articles/584176/
> 
> You'll have to subscribe to read those now (or wait)

… or find somebody who generates free links to the articles in question.

Since LWN's subscriber link page says that these links may be "given to
others", which is not quite the same as "publish to a widely-read mailing
list", I will not post these here without asking first.


> Anyway, LWN is certainly worth paying for

Strongly seconded.

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Re: Need advice on building a package

[John Holland]

I got some debs built for E 18 not 17 gby oing from the source on
enlightenment.org and building them on Wheezy. They've been working
pretty well for me on a couple machines.

You might want to look at the E18 situation because many of the
dependencies for E17 have been combined into one tarball that will
build them all at once. I had some previous attempts to make E17 debs
and the number of dependencies is pretty overwhelming. E18 made it a
lot easier.

my debs are at www.vin-dit.org (instructions on the web page)



On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 10:34:54 -0800
"Schlacta, Christ"  wrote:

> On Feb 12, 2014 10:19 AM, "Neil Williams"  wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 10:05:41 -0800
> > "Schlacta, Christ"  wrote:
> > >
> > > I don't know how to handle this complex dependency of each
> > > package on previous packages in the complex build process
> >
> > Keep building all packages in a loop, remove the package from the
> > loop when it has been built, repeat. The order of the loop barely
> > matters.
> >
> > The problems are that programs are build-dependencies of libraries
> > which have -dev packages which are build-dependencies of programs.
> > There are tools which can identify dependency loops, but for a
> > single run, it is just as effective to try everything, rebuild
> > everything which broke and repeat, repeat, repeat.
> >
> 
> That's not quite the problem. Insofar as I can tell, all the
> dependencies form a nice pretty tree.
> 
> I just need the output from each package to build the next, and I'm
> looking for an automated way to do that in pbuilder



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Re: Conflict between debian/upstream (DEP-12) & debian/upstream/ (uscan)

[Paul Wise]

On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 3:11 PM, Charles Plessy wrote:

> you already have commit access to the Debian Med packages, like all other
> Debian developers.  Please go ahead !

There was adoption of DEP-12 outside of Debian Med and also outside
VCS repositories. I think it would be much better to fix the tools
once than every package that uses DEP-12.

-- 
bye,
pabs

http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise


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Re: Conflict between debian/upstream (DEP-12) & debian/upstream/ (uscan)

[Charles Plessy]

Le Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 07:08:44AM +0800, Paul Wise a écrit :
> On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 3:11 PM, Charles Plessy wrote:
> 
> > you already have commit access to the Debian Med packages, like all other
> > Debian developers.  Please go ahead !
> 
> There was adoption of DEP-12 outside of Debian Med and also outside
> VCS repositories. I think it would be much better to fix the tools
> once than every package that uses DEP-12.

Hi Paul,

why not fixing devscripts instead ?  Uscan is the tool that is broken, and it
would take two minutes to fix it.  Sorry, but the burden of the work should be
on the shoulders of the one who did not check the archive contents before
starting to use a file used by others.

Bigger plans can be considered but should not be a burden to the people doing
the work currently.  This said (again), the time I can give to Debian is
unfortunately shrinking, and somebody is free to step up and replace me fully
in this “upstream metadata” project.  This is very welcome as well.  I am
lagging on other projects (mime-support, DEP website, etc.) and would love to
have more time to dedicate to them.

I encourage volunteers to even consider move the things one level up in scope
and quality, for instance by making an awesome plugin for the “next PTS”, which
will solve the problem of “debian/upstream” as a file entirely.

But as long as there are no such contributions, I see these suggestions of
increasing the complexity of our tools as welcome as the suggestion to patch
GNOME to work with Upstart, to say it bluntly.

James wrote “If all you're concerned about is moving the files in the
repositories, I'll gladly do that”.  Can we please let him do what he promised
instead of discouraging him ?

Have a nice day,

-- 
Charles Plessy
Debian Med packaging team,
http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-med
Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan


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Bug#738796: ITP: pafy -- Python API for YouTube - Download videos and retrieve metadata from YouTube

[Zlatan Todoric]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Zlatan Todoric 

* Package name: pafy
  Version : 0.1
  Upstream Author : Darren 
* URL : https://github.com/np1/pafy
* License : GPL
  Programming Lang: Python
  Description : Python API for YouTube - Download videos and retrieve
metadata from YouTube

Features:

- Retreive metadata such as viewcount, duration, rating, author, thumbnail,
keywords
- Download video or audio at requested resolution / bitrate / format /
filesize
- Command line tool (ytdl) for downloading directly from the command line
- Retrieve the URL to stream the video in a player such as vlc or mplayer
- Works with age-restricted videos and non-embeddable videos
- Small, standalone, single importable module file (pafy.py)
- Select highest quality stream for download or streaming
- Download audio only (no video) in ogg or m4a format
- Download video only (no audio) in m4v format
- Works with Python 2.7 and 3.x
- No dependencies


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Re: Need advice on building a package

[Schlacta, Christ]

On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 2:51 PM, John Holland  wrote:

> I got some debs built for E 18 not 17 gby oing from the source on
> enlightenment.org and building them on Wheezy. They've been working
> pretty well for me on a couple machines.
>
Thank you for the suggestion, but I'm strictly attempting to stick to
backporting packages from Jessie to maintain upgradability later.



> You might want to look at the E18 situation because many of the
> dependencies for E17 have been combined into one tarball that will
> build them all at once. I had some previous attempts to make E17 debs
> and the number of dependencies is pretty overwhelming. E18 made it a
> lot easier.
>

I was a bit dismayed with the extent of the build process :(

I do look forward to E18 making it into Jessie now.


> my debs are at www.vin-dit.org (instructions on the web page)
>
>
Do you have dscs for building from source?

>
>
> On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 10:34:54 -0800
> "Schlacta, Christ"  wrote:
>
> > On Feb 12, 2014 10:19 AM, "Neil Williams"  wrote:
> > >
> > > On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 10:05:41 -0800
> > > "Schlacta, Christ"  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I don't know how to handle this complex dependency of each
> > > > package on previous packages in the complex build process
> > >
> > > Keep building all packages in a loop, remove the package from the
> > > loop when it has been built, repeat. The order of the loop barely
> > > matters.
> > >
> > > The problems are that programs are build-dependencies of libraries
> > > which have -dev packages which are build-dependencies of programs.
> > > There are tools which can identify dependency loops, but for a
> > > single run, it is just as effective to try everything, rebuild
> > > everything which broke and repeat, repeat, repeat.
> > >
> >
> > That's not quite the problem. Insofar as I can tell, all the
> > dependencies form a nice pretty tree.
> >
> > I just need the output from each package to build the next, and I'm
> > looking for an automated way to do that in pbuilder
>
>

Re: Need advice on building a package

[John Holland]

I thought they would be set up automatically when I made the repo. I
just tried to get source with apt-get source from my repo and it said
no source package available. What is the right way to add source
packages to the repo?
 


On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 16:10:25 -0800 "Schlacta, Christ"
 wrote:

> On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 2:51 PM, John Holland 
> wrote:
> 
> > I got some debs built for E 18 not 17 gby oing from the source on
> > enlightenment.org and building them on Wheezy. They've been working
> > pretty well for me on a couple machines.
> >
> Thank you for the suggestion, but I'm strictly attempting to stick to
> backporting packages from Jessie to maintain upgradability later.
> 
> 
> 
> > You might want to look at the E18 situation because many of the
> > dependencies for E17 have been combined into one tarball that will
> > build them all at once. I had some previous attempts to make E17
> > debs and the number of dependencies is pretty overwhelming. E18
> > made it a lot easier.
> >
> 
> I was a bit dismayed with the extent of the build process :(
> 
> I do look forward to E18 making it into Jessie now.
> 
> 
> > my debs are at www.vin-dit.org (instructions on the web page)
> >
> >
> Do you have dscs for building from source?
> 
> >
> >
> > On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 10:34:54 -0800
> > "Schlacta, Christ"  wrote:
> >
> > > On Feb 12, 2014 10:19 AM, "Neil Williams" 
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 10:05:41 -0800
> > > > "Schlacta, Christ"  wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't know how to handle this complex dependency of each
> > > > > package on previous packages in the complex build process
> > > >
> > > > Keep building all packages in a loop, remove the package from
> > > > the loop when it has been built, repeat. The order of the loop
> > > > barely matters.
> > > >
> > > > The problems are that programs are build-dependencies of
> > > > libraries which have -dev packages which are build-dependencies
> > > > of programs. There are tools which can identify dependency
> > > > loops, but for a single run, it is just as effective to try
> > > > everything, rebuild everything which broke and repeat, repeat,
> > > > repeat.
> > > >
> > >
> > > That's not quite the problem. Insofar as I can tell, all the
> > > dependencies form a nice pretty tree.
> > >
> > > I just need the output from each package to build the next, and
> > > I'm looking for an automated way to do that in pbuilder
> >
> >



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Re: systemd - getting started?

[Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek]

On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 02:53:49PM +0100, Petr Baudis wrote:
>   Hi!
> 
>   In fact, I installed systemd on my jessie system just yesterday.  So
> far I filed two (not very major, promptly being dealt with) bugs and
> after a lot of initial conservative scepticism, I'm quite excited
> especially by journald. :)
> 
> 
>   I found switching to systemd trivial by just following:
> 
>   /usr/share/doc/systemd/README.Debian
> 
> After a reboot, I just played with various systemctl, journalctl and
> loginctl commands to get a feeling of it.
> 
> 
>   My first experience with a service file has been following
> 
>   
> https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Systemd_FAQ#Q:_How_do_I_avoid_clearing_the_console_after_boot.3F
The advice given in this entry is sligtly outdated:
New way would be to add /etc/systemd/system/getty@tty1.service.d/noclearing.conf
containing

  [Service]
  TTYVTDisallocate=no

Zbyszek


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Re: Need advice on building a package

[John Holland]

I'm sure this isn't the right way to do it, but I put up the tarballs
and dscs and a couple pages that link to them.

http://www.vin-dit.org/~jholland/tarballs.html

http://www.vin-dit.org/~jholland/dscs.html

You have to build them (and install after building) in the order given
at enlightenment.org due to dependencies. 

Advice on how to do this right would be welcome!

John



n Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:26:00 -0500
John Holland  wrote:

> I thought they would be set up automatically when I made the repo. I
> just tried to get source with apt-get source from my repo and it said
> no source package available. What is the right way to add source
> packages to the repo?
>  
> 
> 
> On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 16:10:25 -0800 "Schlacta, Christ"
>  wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 2:51 PM, John Holland 
> > wrote:
> > 
> > > I got some debs built for E 18 not 17 gby oing from the source on
> > > enlightenment.org and building them on Wheezy. They've been
> > > working pretty well for me on a couple machines.
> > >
> > Thank you for the suggestion, but I'm strictly attempting to stick
> > to backporting packages from Jessie to maintain upgradability later.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > You might want to look at the E18 situation because many of the
> > > dependencies for E17 have been combined into one tarball that will
> > > build them all at once. I had some previous attempts to make E17
> > > debs and the number of dependencies is pretty overwhelming. E18
> > > made it a lot easier.
> > >
> > 
> > I was a bit dismayed with the extent of the build process :(
> > 
> > I do look forward to E18 making it into Jessie now.
> > 
> > 
> > > my debs are at www.vin-dit.org (instructions on the web page)
> > >
> > >
> > Do you have dscs for building from source?
> > 
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 10:34:54 -0800
> > > "Schlacta, Christ"  wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Feb 12, 2014 10:19 AM, "Neil Williams" 
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 10:05:41 -0800
> > > > > "Schlacta, Christ"  wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I don't know how to handle this complex dependency of each
> > > > > > package on previous packages in the complex build process
> > > > >
> > > > > Keep building all packages in a loop, remove the package from
> > > > > the loop when it has been built, repeat. The order of the loop
> > > > > barely matters.
> > > > >
> > > > > The problems are that programs are build-dependencies of
> > > > > libraries which have -dev packages which are
> > > > > build-dependencies of programs. There are tools which can
> > > > > identify dependency loops, but for a single run, it is just
> > > > > as effective to try everything, rebuild everything which
> > > > > broke and repeat, repeat, repeat.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > That's not quite the problem. Insofar as I can tell, all the
> > > > dependencies form a nice pretty tree.
> > > >
> > > > I just need the output from each package to build the next, and
> > > > I'm looking for an automated way to do that in pbuilder
> > >
> > >
> 



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Re: Need advice on building a package

[Kumar Appaiah]

On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 04:10:25PM -0800, Schlacta, Christ wrote:
>On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 2:51 PM, John Holland <[1]jholl...@vin-dit.org>
>wrote:
> 
>  I got some debs built for E 18 not 17 gby oing from the source on
>  [2]enlightenment.org and building them on Wheezy. They've been working
>  pretty well for me on a couple machines.
> 
>Thank you for the suggestion, but I'm strictly attempting to stick to
>backporting packages from Jessie to maintain upgradability later.

Would this be useful? This would enable you to use packages built as
build-dependencies for next packages. Naturally, you should update the
build-dependencies as well to use the backported ones.

https://wiki.debian.org/PbuilderTricks#How_to_include_local_packages_in_the_build

Kumar
-- 
Dijkstra probably hates me.
-- Linus Torvalds, in kernel/sched.c


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Re: Need advice on building a package

[Jeff Epler]

If you have a local apt repository (e.g., with dput and mini-dinstall),
then after building each package you would install it to your local
repo.  (typical commandline: dput local packagename*.changes) If
properly configured, pbuilder can look at the local apt repository and
pick up the -dev dependencies that were just built in the previous
step(s)

Initially setting up dput with mini-dinstall is documented, though I
didn't take the time to google up a tutorial for you.

Best of luck.

Jeff


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Re: systemd - getting started?

[Matthias Urlichs]

Hi,

> >  http://lwn.net/Articles/584175/
> >  http://lwn.net/Articles/584176/
> > 
Part 1 is now no longer behind the paywall.
Part 2: http://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/584176/0c6d3dd9a5243211/ 

> Since LWN's subscriber link page says that these links may be "given to
> others", which is not quite the same as "publish to a widely-read mailing
> list", I will not post these here without asking first.

I asked: they're OK with that.

-- 
-- Matthias Urlichs


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Re: Proposal: SystemD.pushers/forcers be physically beaten as revenge.

[Сергей Красников]

After ***forcing*** users to use libav instead of ffmpeg in debian therefore making it to stuck with outdated fork istead of rapidly developing original it's too late to talk about freedom.. -- Sergey Krasnikov
		

Re: Need advice on building a package

[Schlacta, Christ]

Thanks everyone! These sound like just exactly the pieces I was looking
for. I'll absorb everything I can and either start a new thread or follow
up on this one with any questions I develop.
On Feb 12, 2014 5:22 PM, "Jeff Epler"  wrote:

> If you have a local apt repository (e.g., with dput and mini-dinstall),
> then after building each package you would install it to your local
> repo.  (typical commandline: dput local packagename*.changes) If
> properly configured, pbuilder can look at the local apt repository and
> pick up the -dev dependencies that were just built in the previous
> step(s)
>
> Initially setting up dput with mini-dinstall is documented, though I
> didn't take the time to google up a tutorial for you.
>
> Best of luck.
>
> Jeff
>
>
> --
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> with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact
> listmas...@lists.debian.org
> Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20140213005619.gb11...@unpythonic.net
>
>

Re: Proposal: SystemD.pushers/forcers be physically beaten as revenge.

[Clint Adams]

On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 08:00:56AM +0400, Сергей Красников wrote:
> After ***forcing*** users to use libav instead of ffmpeg in debian
> therefore making it to stuck with outdated fork istead of rapidly
> developing original it's too late to talk about freedom..

https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=729203


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Re: Proposal: SystemD.pushers/forcers be physically beaten as revenge.

[Russ Allbery]

Clint Adams  writes:
> On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 08:00:56AM +0400, Сергей Красников wrote:

>> After ***forcing*** users to use libav instead of ffmpeg in debian
>> therefore making it to stuck with outdated fork istead of rapidly
>> developing original it's too late to talk about freedom..

> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=729203

Ow, that bug.  Ow.

I don't have anywhere *near* enough information about the background,
situation, and software involved to even hazard a guess as to the best
approach.  But ow.

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)   


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Thomas Goirand]

On 02/12/2014 11:01 PM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
> Again, are you the listmaster or DPL or what?

I thought you were smarter and would understand you went too far and
should stop. Though if the only way to stop your insults is to go to the
DPL or the listmaster, I believe I wont even have to do it myself (I
don't think I should anyway, since I'm involved): someone else will be
upset by your wording in a public Debian list and will report you.

> yet you claim those are insults.

You will have a hard time convincing anyone that saying that someone is
"derogative, arrogant, utterly annoying, hypocrite and dishonest" is not
insulting.

> Your problem is that you can't accept defeat.

I have *no problem* with it, or anything else. I don't think I have lost
anything, or that there's even a "defeat". The above sentence is very
silly, because it paints a very wrong picture of what happened. I
accepted OpenRC wouldn't be taken as default even before it happened. If
you think that's what I wrote, then you miss-interpreted.

>> https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2014/01/msg00340.html

What lead me to write was that:
- bdale wrote to me that he didn't evaluate OpenRC
- Russ wrote wrong statements on public list or blogs (I can't remember
which one it was, I believe it was his blog)
- Don stated he didn't spent much time with it or something similar

So, because this was a repeated pattern, I posted that message. I asked
for the TC to properly evaluate OpenRC, and explain why it wouldn't be
the choice.

I was very pleased by Ian Jackson's technical response, which helps us
for our (future) development. I don't see anything wrong in that, and I
believe what I asked for was legitimate.

> Also, please count how often you posted to debian-ctte and how
> often I posted to debian-ctte.

I tried to not post too much in this bug, and let the TC do its work. I
posted 10 messages to #727708, out of which 5 were talking about the
current status of OpenRC, which I believe was appreciated by the TC (at
least bdale seemed happy of these messages). In these messages, I wasn't
talking about anything else.

I have counted around 43 messages from Josselin Mouette, why don't you
complain about him posting too much? (note: I took Joss as a random
example, and I have no problem with him posting on the TC bug...)

Besides this, I'm the person behind the proposal of OpenRC, and there
was some direct inquiries, so I don't think 10 messages is a lot. You
can also see that Russ seemed happy about the corrections I contributed
to his statements, since he didn't evaluate OpenRC properly either (at
least at the beginning, not sure later on). Bdale also seemed pleased
with the reported status about Hurd support and so on.

Gosh, why do I even have to justify myself... This is crazy. Adrian,
look at the posts from Olav & Didier. I think they are representative of
the fact that your personal attacks toward me, leading to what I wrote
above, is of very little interest to anyone.

Yet, if you are again repeating the same pattern, your next move will
be: coming back after your insults, posting some more (why not, since
the listmasters accepted the previous ones?), then more critics of what
I do or did which will include wrong statement and reality distortion,
and then writing "hey, I already wrote that we should stop... it's not
me who don't want to stop".

That's not the way you get to a more relaxed atmosphere. Pushing me to
justify myself on my behavior isn't the way to go either. If you are
sending direct attacks publicly, don't you think it's to be expected
that I reply to public accusations?

I'm not asking you to stop discussing here, even about the init system.
I've asked you to stop your insult and direct attacks toward me in
public lists. This leads to nowhere, and annoys everyone.

Thomas


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