Re: "Do not CC me"

[Guillem Jover]

On Sun, 2012-11-25 at 19:41:12 -0800, Russ Allbery wrote:
> Henrique de Moraes Holschuh  writes:
> > Well, the software to do it is around for more than 15 years.  Google
> > for "procmail duplicate suppression".
> 
> This works exactly backwards of how useful duplicate suppression would
> actually work.

> The personal copy is useless; the mailing list copy will get filed into
> the proper folder and is the one that you want to keep.

Well, obviously that depends on how one handles mail, but I can see
how getting a copy when you don't read a specific mailing list very
often, serves at least to draw attention that there's mail on the list,
which can always be removed afterwards if it's unneeded.

> The duplicate suppression that you want is to get rid of the personal copy
> and keep the list copy, but that's more complex to do right, because you
> have to essentially quarantine the personal copy while you wait for the
> list copy that's supposed to replace it, and then deliver the personal
> copy if the list copy never arrives.  You certainly have to go to more
> effort than just mainining a database of message IDs and throwing away the
> message the second time you see it.

That's one of the reasons I stopped removing/stashing dupes long time
ago, the other being, the annoyance of having broken/partial threads
on multiple mail boxes. I switched to just marking and showing them
“distinctively”, so that I can know immediately if there's other
instances around, and can choose where to read them from. As in:

,--- procmailrc ---
# Check for duped mails
:0 Whc : Admin/msgid.lock
| formail -D 524288 Admin/msgid.cache

# If it's a dupe, mark it
:0 aBfh
| formail -a "X-Duped: yes"
`---

,--- muttrc ---
color index blue black "~h '^X-Duped: yes'"
`---


In any case, I don't mind much adapting to either mailing list usage (w/
or w/o explicit CC), but I've increasingly been finding that the no-CC
policy is not w/o fault, being inconsistent (because you don't know
off-hand who's subscribed, so on initial mails you might need to CC
people directly), prone to missing the recipient (because this is not
a usual convention, and people not subscribed might mail a list and
expect being CCed, but doing so might incur being chastized in the name
of the CoC!), requires being more attentive in case you need to CC when
people request it explicitly (and the danger of being chastized for not
doing so), and slighty annoying when people complain due to being
accidentally CCed or not CCed at all.

Thanks,
Guillem


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Re: Bug#693998: ITP: linux-minidisc -- Free software for accessing NetMD and HiMD MiniDisc devices

[John Paul Adrian Glaubitz]

On Sun, Nov 25, 2012 at 06:55:25AM +1100, Karl Goetz wrote:
> > > > * Package name       : linux-minidisc
> > > 
> > > Thats a strange name considering it builds and runs on MacOS, Windows,
> > > Linux, FreeBSD and Haiku.
> > 
> > Yes, the name is indeed somewhat confusing in that regard.
> 
> > If you have a better idea, I'd be happy to hear it ;).
> 
> Not necessary better, but perhaps libre-minidisk? 3 letters different and 
> only contains one trademark :)

libre-minidisc sounds actually nice (note, it's minidis_c_, not
minidis_k_ as compared to hard dis_k_), but renaming the project would
involve too much of a hassle. The name is already everywhere, on the
project wiki, the mailing list, the git repository and so on. So, I
think we will refrain from doing that for now.

In the end, it affects the name of the source package only anyway, so
it's not a big deal. Most Windows and MacOS users just search and
download the UI application, QHiMDTransfer and don't care it mentions
Linux on the project homepage.

Cheers,

Adrian

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Re: "Do not CC me"

[Charles Plessy]

Le Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 10:07:59AM +0100, Guillem Jover a écrit :
> 
> In any case, I don't mind much adapting to either mailing list usage (w/
> or w/o explicit CC), but I've increasingly been finding that the no-CC
> policy is not w/o fault, being inconsistent (because you don't know
> off-hand who's subscribed, so on initial mails you might need to CC
> people directly), prone to missing the recipient (because this is not
> a usual convention, and people not subscribed might mail a list and
> expect being CCed, but doing so might incur being chastized in the name
> of the CoC!), requires being more attentive in case you need to CC when
> people request it explicitly (and the danger of being chastized for not
> doing so), and slighty annoying when people complain due to being
> accidentally CCed or not CCed at all.

And to add to the confusion, the BTS does not automatically subscribe the
contributors to a thread, and it is hard to keep track, among the recipients
known for disliking to be CCed on mailing lists, who wants to be CCed on the
BTS or not, (not to mention that one can not check if they are subscribed or
not to mailing lists that would receive the BTS email).

Cheers,

-- 
Charles Plessy
Debian Med packaging team,
http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-med
Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan


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Bug#694408: ITP: vmdk-stream-converter -- raw disk images to stream-optimized VMDK files convert tool

[Hideki Yamane]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Hideki Yamane 
X-Debbugs-CC: debian-devel@lists.debian.org, debian-cl...@lists.debian.org

   Package name: vmdk-stream-converter
Version: 0.2

URL: https://github.com/imcleod/VMDK-stream-converter
upstream author: Red Hat, Inc.
License: GPL-2

Description: raw disk images to stream-optimized VMDK files convert tool
 This tool convert raw disk images to stream-optimized VMDK files for VMWare
 ESX/vSphere environment, and known to work on ESXi 4.1.
 .
 Its format is only useful if you are attempting to import virtual machines
 into ESX using the vSphere SOAP API and HTTP POST uploads of image files.
 (In which case, it is required.)


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Re: "Do not CC me"

[Paul Wise]

On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 5:23 PM, Charles Plessy wrote:

> And to add to the confusion, the BTS does not automatically subscribe the
> contributors to a thread,

As a submitter of bugs, I do not need (nor want) to be CCed on every
mail to a bug, just the ones that require my input. So I would oppose
subscribing submitters by default unless they opt-in to that.

-- 
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pabs

http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise


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Re: "Do not CC me"

[Jakub Wilk]

* Paul Wise , 2012-11-26, 17:34:
And to add to the confusion, the BTS does not automatically subscribe 
the contributors to a thread,
As a submitter of bugs, I do not need (nor want) to be CCed on every 
mail to a bug, just the ones that require my input.


ACK

So I would oppose subscribing submitters by default unless they opt-in 
to that.


I'm not an enthusiast of this idea either, though I'm not sure it'll 
actually make things worse. Currently quite often happens that:

- questions that I should answer personally are _not_ CCed to me,
- boring technical discussion I couldn't care less about _are_ CCed to 
me.


--
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Re: "Do not CC me"

[Helmut Grohne]

On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 12:27:31AM +0400, ?? ?? wrote:
> I see many note in this list like:
> "I'm registered to the list. So please *do not* Cc: me."

Technically this is a solved problem. The solution is called
Mail-Followup-To[1]. Due to the popularity of the Mutt, Gnus, KMail and
Icedove MUAs among Debian users this header is honoured in many cases.
(Those should make up at least half of the list traffic.) A quick grep
on my mailbox tells me that about one fifth of the posts already carry a
Mail-Followup-To. Seems like there is some still room for improvement
for those crying "do not CC".

To generate Mail-Followup-To see:
 * Mutt: http://www.mutt.org/doc/manual/manual-4.html#ss4.8
 * Gnus: http://gnus.org/manual/gnus_28.html
 * Icedove: 
https://wiki.mozilla.org/Thunderbird:Help_Documentation:Mail-Followup-To_and_Mail-Reply-To#Configure_Thunderbird

Hope this helps.

> So I'd like to note:
> 
> 1. Some e-mail cleints make it hard not to CC. For example GMail has only
> two options: reply and reply to all. "Reply" will send email to the author,
> not to the list

With some MUAs it is difficult not to send mail in HTML-only. Is that an
excuse to do so? I'd say no. So if you deliberately choose the pain of
correctly sending mail with GMail, that's hardly my problem, right?

Helmut

[1] http://cr.yp.to/proto/replyto.html


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Bug#694418: ITP: fits -- Java library for the I/O handling of FITS files

[Florian Rothmaier]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Florian Rothmaier 

* Package name: fits
  Version : 1.10.0
  Upstream Author : Thomas A. McGlynn 
* URL : http://heasarc.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/heasarc/fits/java/
* License : public-domain
  Programming Lang: Java
  Description : Java library for the I/O handling of FITS files

FITS (Flexible Image Transport System) is the standard
data format in astronomy used for the transport, analysis,
and archival storage of scientific data sets.

This library provides efficient I/O for FITS images and
binary tables. All basic FITS formats and gzip compressed
files are supported.


This package is built in preparation to build TOPCAT (the
"Tool for OPerations on Catalogues And Tables").

A git repository has been created at
http://anonscm.debian.org/gitweb/?p=debian-science/packages/fits.git .

Any kind of packaging help or comments on the current status of
this package is appreciated.


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Re: [OT] XML

[Jakub Wilk]

* Ivan Shmakov , 2012-11-26, 14:32:
Seriously, XML takes a lot of concerns off an application programmer. 
It provides quoting, arbitrary hierarchical structure, support for 
different encodings, etc. Why, don't you think that $ grep 
'[[:lower:]]' FILE is ever supposed to work? For surely it isn't: grep 
has no way to know the encoding of the input file, and relies on the 
locale instead. On the contrary, XML allows for the encoding to be 
specified explicitly via a processing instruction. And then, there's 
XPath, which takes the input dataset structure into account.


How do you search for a lowercase letter in XPath?

--
Jakub Wilk


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Re: "Do not CC me"

[Thomas Goirand]

On 11/26/2012 04:27 AM, Игорь Пашев wrote:
> Hi there!
>
> I see many note in this list like:
> "I'm registered to the list. So please *do not* Cc: me."
>
> So I'd like to note:
>
> 1. Some e-mail cleints make it hard not to CC. For example GMail has
> only two options: reply and reply to all. "Reply" will send email to
> the author, not to the list
>
> 2. Some email cleints are smart enough to guess that CC and list email
> is the same and will not duplicate it
The solution to this is very simple. Have the
mailing list manager to add a Reply-To: header
on each messages.

I've done this on few of the lists I manage, and since
then, nobody sends double-messages.

But, probably, mailman is too stupid to have such
kind of options (I use (and maintain in Debian) MLMMJ,
which is used by big distros like Gentoo and SUSE).

Thomas

P.S: I know that the list manager adding a Reply-To:
header breaks the RFC, and people setting-it up
explicitly on their mail client, but it works very well...


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Re: "Do not CC me"

[Paul Wise]

On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 8:03 PM, Thomas Goirand  wrote:

> The solution to this is very simple. Have the
> mailing list manager to add a Reply-To: header
> on each messages.
>
> I've done this on few of the lists I manage, and since
> then, nobody sends double-messages.
>
> But, probably, mailman is too stupid to have such
> kind of options (I use (and maintain in Debian) MLMMJ,
> which is used by big distros like Gentoo and SUSE).

mailman has those options but lists.debian.org doesn't use mailman.
lists.alioth.debian.org and lists.debconf.org do though.

-- 
bye,
pabs

http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise


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Re: "Do not CC me"

[Josselin Mouette]

Le lundi 26 novembre 2012 à 20:03 +0800, Thomas Goirand a écrit : 
> The solution to this is very simple. Have the
> mailing list manager to add a Reply-To: header
> on each messages.
> 
> I've done this on few of the lists I manage, and since
> then, nobody sends double-messages.

Does it mean none of your subscribers use thunderbird?

-- 
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: :' :
`. `'
  `-


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Re: "Do not CC me"

[Helmut Grohne]

On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 08:03:54PM +0800, Thomas Goirand wrote:
> The solution to this is very simple. Have the
> mailing list manager to add a Reply-To: header
> on each messages.

As you pointed out the "solution" is technically wrong.

> But, probably, mailman is too stupid to have such
> kind of options (I use (and maintain in Debian) MLMMJ,
> which is used by big distros like Gentoo and SUSE).

Already refuted by Paul Wise.

> P.S: I know that the list manager adding a Reply-To:
> header breaks the RFC, and people setting-it up
> explicitly on their mail client, but it works very well...

It breaks a valid use case. Consider a user not subscribed to
debian-devel (for instance because she wishes to avoid all those useless
flames). Said users sends a mail and actually wants CC. She therefore
adds a sensible Mail-Followup-To, which is not honoured due to the
presence of the broken Reply-To. The response is lost despite the
explicit preference of the user.

So what could be done indeed is to generate a missing Mail-Followup-To
header on the mailing list server, as the server knows who is
subscribed. I doubt that any mailing list software has such a hack
implemented. Maybe fix your MUA instead?

Helmut


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Re: "Do not CC me"

[Josselin Mouette]

Le lundi 26 novembre 2012 à 13:32 +0100, Helmut Grohne a écrit : 
> It breaks a valid use case. Consider a user not subscribed to
> debian-devel (for instance because she wishes to avoid all those useless
> flames). Said users sends a mail and actually wants CC. She therefore
> adds a sensible Mail-Followup-To, which is not honoured due to the
> presence of the broken Reply-To. The response is lost despite the
> explicit preference of the user.

Mail-Followup-To is not a standard of any kind. It is not implemented in
many email clients, which makes it de facto useless. Calling MUAs
“broken” because they don’t implement something that doesn’t even have
clear semantics is a quite a stretch.

-- 
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: :' :
`. `'
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Re: Mass bug filling about proprietary code of adobe in our type1 fonts

[Stefano Zacchiroli]

On Sun, Nov 25, 2012 at 06:48:58PM +, Bart Martens wrote:
> > Debian release I've witnessed, such nitpicking thingies always come
> > during the freeze time. I'd prefer nitpickers to be more active during
> > the 1.5 year where development of the future release is active.
> 
> It's nitpicking depending on how serious one takes the DFSG.  Bug reports are
> free to be active whenever they want.  Let's not discourage bug reporters by
> calling them nitpickers and by giving the impression that the bug reports 
> would
> be less welcome during the freeze time.  In this case I welcome Bastien's
> initiative.

Amen. I understand that this initiatives might be frustrating when the
natural obsession we now have is getting the RC bugs count down. But we
should not discourage bug reporting activities at any time during the
release. If they are valid RC bugs (something I haven't verified myself
in this specific case) and if the timing is bad, it will be up to
release team whether they deserve policy exceptions or not. But there's
no reason I can think of to be unwelcoming of initiatives that aim at a
laudable goal --- increasing Debian quality --- even if when they arrive
at a moment that might seem untimely.

Cheers.
-- 
Stefano Zacchiroli  . . . . . . .  z...@upsilon.cc . . . . o . . . o . o
Maître de conférences . . . . . http://upsilon.cc/zack . . . o . . . o o
Debian Project Leader . . . . . . @zack on identi.ca . . o o o . . . o .
« the first rule of tautology club is the first rule of tautology club »


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Re: "Do not CC me"

[The Wanderer]

On 11/26/2012 02:06 AM, Vincent Danjean wrote:


Hi,

Le 26/11/2012 04:41, Russ Allbery a écrit :


When someone copies you on a message to a mailing list, you get two copies,


Not always. My ISP (French "Free/Proxad") seems to filter mail with the same
Message-ID sent in a few period of time (a few minutes?)


Gmail does something similar, except not time-limited; it won't even re-send you
a copy of a mail you send to a mailing list. This is apparently on the grounds
that you already have a copy under "Sent Items" or equivalent, and of course
Gmail's magical "unified conversations" view will show that message in the
discussion's context no matter where it's actually stored.

Which is useless if you're not using the Gmail Web interface, of course... not
to mention if you actually want the modified mailing-list copy.

I suppose there's argument to be made that the actual problem lies in not
changing the Message-ID when modifying a message for mailing-list
retransmission, but that's a long-established practice and there are very likely
reasons for it.

--
   The Wanderer

Warning: Simply because I argue an issue does not mean I agree with any
side of it.

Every time you let somebody set a limit they start moving it.
  - LiveJournal user antonia_tiger


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Re: "Do not CC me"

[Andrew Shadura]

Hello,

On Mon, 26 Nov 2012 08:07:03 -0500
The Wanderer  wrote:

> Gmail does something similar, except not time-limited; it won't even
> re-send you a copy of a mail you send to a mailing list. This is
> apparently on the grounds that you already have a copy under "Sent
> Items" or equivalent, and of course Gmail's magical "unified
> conversations" view will show that message in the discussion's
> context no matter where it's actually stored.

Not always true. I get both, every time, and the sent message sometimes
I get twice :)

-- 
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Re: "Do not CC me"

[The Wanderer]

On 11/26/2012 08:22 AM, Andrew Shadura wrote:


Hello,

On Mon, 26 Nov 2012 08:07:03 -0500 The Wanderer  wrote:


Gmail does something similar, except not time-limited; it won't even 
re-send you a copy of a mail you send to a mailing list. This is apparently

on the grounds that you already have a copy under "Sent Items" or
equivalent, and of course Gmail's magical "unified conversations" view will
show that message in the discussion's context no matter where it's actually
stored.


Not always true. I get both, every time, and the sent message sometimes I get
twice :)


Hmm. Maybe they changed something after all; the last time I looked at this was
at least two years ago, but at the time they seemed to consider the behavior a
feature rather than a bug, despite the number of people requesting the ability
to disable it. Given their track record with such things (or at least my
impression thereof), I didn't expect them to have changed that.

If they *have* introduced the ability to configure this, I'd like to know how...
another thing to look into, I suppose.

--
   The Wanderer

Warning: Simply because I argue an issue does not mean I agree with any
side of it.

Every time you let somebody set a limit they start moving it.
  - LiveJournal user antonia_tiger


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Bug#694447: ITP: twistedchecker -- Coding style checker for Python source.

[Tristan Seligmann]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Tristan Seligmann 

* Package name: twistedchecker
  Version : 0.0.0
  Upstream Author : Raphael Shu 
* URL : https://launchpad.net/twistedchecker
* License : MIT/Expat
  Programming Lang: Python
  Description : Coding style checker for Python source.

twistedchecker is a coding style checker for Python source, similar to
the pep8 utility, but implementing Twisted's coding standard.


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Re: "Do not CC me"

[Thomas Goirand]

On 11/26/2012 08:35 PM, Josselin Mouette wrote:
> Le lundi 26 novembre 2012 à 20:03 +0800, Thomas Goirand a écrit : 
>> The solution to this is very simple. Have the
>> mailing list manager to add a Reply-To: header
>> on each messages.
>>
>> I've done this on few of the lists I manage, and since
>> then, nobody sends double-messages.
> Does it mean none of your subscribers use thunderbird?
>
If you hit "reply" with Thunderbird, then it does reply
to the list. But if you hit "reply all" it replies to everyone. So,
it's only half broken ... :)

Thomas


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Re: "Do not CC me"

[Thomas Goirand]

On 11/26/2012 03:06 PM, Vincent Danjean wrote:
>   Not always. My ISP (French "Free/Proxad") seems to filter mail with
> the same Message-ID sent in a few period of time (a few minutes?)
> [...]
>   Changing of ISP is not really an option (other French ISP are often
> less respecting of the standard or lots more expensive or ...).
Why don't you keep your ISP, and host your mail address
somewhere else? Your email address isn't necessarily
bound to your DSL provider...

Thomas


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Reply-To munging (was: Re: "Do not CC me")

[Bjørn Mork]

Thomas Goirand  writes:

> The solution to this is very simple. Have the
> mailing list manager to add a Reply-To: header
> on each messages.
>
> I've done this on few of the lists I manage, and since
> then, nobody sends double-messages.
>
> But, probably, mailman is too stupid to have such
> kind of options (I use (and maintain in Debian) MLMMJ,
> which is used by big distros like Gentoo and SUSE).
>
> Thomas
>
> P.S: I know that the list manager adding a Reply-To:
> header breaks the RFC, and people setting-it up
> explicitly on their mail client, but it works very well...

Fascinating.  Did I miss the announcement of
"Repeat-Every-Controversial-Discussion month" or what? Anyway, to save
us some time, could everybody please just read

 http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html
 http://www.metasystema.net/essays/reply-to.html
 http://woozle.org/~neale/papers/reply-to-still-harmful.html

and agree that we are not going to agree on this subject either?

There is absolutely no reason to repeat any of the arguments found in
those three documents here.  Anyone reading this list should be capable
of googling.


Bjørn


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Bug#694456: ITP: lzma-sdk-4j -- LZMA SDK for Java

[Ivan Fitenko]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Ivan Fitenko 

* Package name: lzma-sdk-4j
  Version : 9.22.0
  Upstream Author : Igor Pavlov 
* URL : https://github.com/b1-pack/lzma-sdk-4j/
* License : Public Domain
  Programming Lang: Java
  Description : LZMA SDK for Java

 LZMA SDK for Java is a data compression library for Java from the LZMA
 SDK written by Igor Pavlov.


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Processed: your mail

[Debian Bug Tracking System]

Processing commands for cont...@bugs.debian.org:

> block 694459 by 694308
Bug #694459 [sponsorship-requests] RFS: lcdf-typetools/2.92+dfsg1-1.1 [NMU] [RC]
694459 was not blocked by any bugs.
694459 was blocking: 694352
Added blocking bug(s) of 694459: 694308
>
End of message, stopping processing here.

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Re: Canonical pushes upstart into user session - systemd developer complains

[Vincent Lefevre]

On 2012-11-26 07:27:08 +0900, Norbert Preining wrote:
> Ever heard of 
>   grep, sed, awk, 
> all these nice things that make your life happy.

These tools are broken when dealing with multibyte characters.
For instance, with:

foo = aéb

a "grep 'a.b' file" will find nothing in the C locale.

> No please - I don't mind the key = value in group config format, that
> is readable, usefull, easy to edit.

I disagree about "readable", except on small files. For instance,
in the default .subversion/config file, the group names are lost
among the comments. And this format is also easy to break without
noticing the breakage.

> Everything but XML. *EVERYTHING*.

This is your opinion. I disagree. XML is nice for things like
validation and complex operations. XML is easy (easier) to edit
if you use the "right" tools.

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Re: Bug#694418: ITP: fits -- Java library for the I/O handling of FITS files

[Olе Streicher]

Hi Florian,

Florian Rothmaier  writes:
> * Package name: fits
> [...]
> * License : public-domain

Some short comments:

* I would not name the (source) package "fits" since this is too short
  and misleading (I would expect a generic fits handling package there,
  not a java specific one). Since it is a java package, "fits-java" or
  "libfits-java" (the same as your library package) would IMO fit better.

* Since the original code is under PD, would you consider to put the
  Debian package under a less restrictive license than GPL?

* I would announce the ITP also in the debian-java mailing list, and
  also ask for review and sponsorship in all three lists (mentors,
  science, java).

Cheers

Ole


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Re: Canonical pushes upstart into user session - systemd developer complains

[Konstantin Khomoutov]

On Sun, 25 Nov 2012 17:16:09 +0100
Guillem Jover  wrote:

> On Sun, 2012-11-25 at 23:30:01 +0800, Chow Loong Jin wrote:
> > [...] and the hierarchical format
> > that apt uses doesn't have a readily-usable parser outside of apt
> > (at least not that I know of).
> 
> W/o getting into the debate of what format is better or nicer, the
> configuration format from which APT's is based, the ISC config format,
> is available in libisccfg.

Well, from what I see in [1], this library depends on libcap2,
libdns81, libisc83 and libisccc80, among other things.  Of these
only libisc83 appears to be a somewhat sensible dependency ("ISC
Shared Library used by BIND") -- all the others look like a clear sign
of a layering violation: I fail to understand how a configuration file
format parsing library might depend on POSIX capabilities, a DNS
library and a "BIND command channel" library.  It's not like I want to
blame the library or its packagers, just want to point out this library,
as it currently stands, does not appear to be really useful outside of
the set of tools comprising the BIND suite.

1. http://packages.debian.org/wheezy/libisccfg82


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Re: "Do not CC me"

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Lu, 26 nov 12, 01:10:13, Dmitrijs Ledkovs wrote:
> 
> But in general with CC's to the mailing lists, both To: & Cc: headers
> have debian-devel & yourself in both messages and List-Id only in one
> of them. So surely you can filter one copy to /dev/null as
> appropriate?!

I've considered to add this myself, this solution doesn't cover the "CC 
to draw attention" case.

I'm guessing many people will check their "Inbox" more often than 
mailing list folders, especially when travelling, slow connection, busy, 
etc.

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Re: "Do not CC me"

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Lu, 26 nov 12, 20:03:54, Thomas Goirand wrote:
> The solution to this is very simple. Have the
> mailing list manager to add a Reply-To: header
> on each messages.

I thought Reply-To: was to be used (only) by the people who do want a 
Cc.

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Re: RFH: How to get rid of a link to a directory

[Nicolas Boulenguez]

On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 02:34:03PM +0900, Norbert Preining wrote:
> What I would like to have is:
> * get rid of the above link, change it to a directory
> Can anyone give me hints how to achieve this in a proper way?

Just in case you missed that, dpkg will refuse to replace an existing
directory with a symbolic link, and vice versa.

You might find convenient to copy-paste one of the work-arounds at
http://wiki.debian.org/MissingCopyrightFile. The last link seems to
break sometimes, retry if necessary.


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lib- prefix for non-library (was: Bug#693998: ITP: linux-minidisc -- Free software for accessing NetMD and HiMD MiniDisc devices)

[David Prévot]

Hi,

Le 26/11/2012 05:19, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz a écrit :
> On Sun, Nov 25, 2012 at 06:55:25AM +1100, Karl Goetz wrote:
> * Package name   : linux-minidisc

 Thats a strange name considering it builds and runs on MacOS, Windows,
 Linux, FreeBSD and Haiku.
>>>
>>> Yes, the name is indeed somewhat confusing in that regard.
>>
>>> If you have a better idea, I'd be happy to hear it ;).
>>
>> Not necessary better, but perhaps libre-minidisk? 3 letters different and 
>> only contains one trademark :)
> 
> libre-minidisc sounds actually nice

Seems weird to see another non-library ending up in the pool/main/libr/
directory of our archive (and yet another special case to handle for
tools like deborphan). It would be nice to avoid the lib- prefix for
non-library.

Regards

David




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Re: the right bug severity in case of data corruption

[Christoph Anton Mitterer]

Hey Henrique.

On Sat, 2012-11-24 at 22:27 -0200, Henrique de Moraes Holschuh wrote:
> ...
??


> At least for postfix, I'd expect them to accept a patch for local(8) to
> not quote From lines as a config option,
First, I've never asked not to quote From_ lines at all, cause this
would really lead to massive mail corruption / phantom messages.
What I usually proposed was mboxrd, which quotes _all_ From_ lines and
not just some.

>  with the default being to keep
> the current behaviour (i.e. quote them).
But apart from this,... yes you're right, Wietse already said he would
probably accept such a patch, but with the default still exposing the
users to data corruption.

Which does of course not necessarily mean that anyone is writing such a
patch, though.


> Look, if it were severity critical, given how long this situation stands,
> we'd not have this thread and nobody would be doing this.
Well or just no one ever recognised it, or those who did decided for
themselves, they could live with it...


> In postfix' case, it is documented like all heck, for example (see local(8)
> manpage)
Quote? Actually I had talked about just that lack with Wietse, too, and
he didn't complain when I mentioned that there was no big fat hint in
local(8) about mboxo being used and it's vulnerability to corruption.


> and it can trivially be configured to use something else to
> deliver mail to mbox files (such as procmail, etc).
Of course, but from the postfix documentation, nothing AFAICS tells one
the need to use a 3rd party MDA, because postfix' own were broken.


> We [Debian] could deprecate anything that uses mboxo (mbox old) format as
> the native/preferred storage format, and configure our stuff where possible
> to never use mboxo by default.  That's about it.
That's what I've meant,... and therefore I suggested to add notice about
the issue in those places where the user are most likely to read it,
e.g. package description, README.Debian and depending how prone a
program is to it, perhaps even via some hack like a informing debconf
dialogue (though someone has indicated this might conflict the policy).
E.g. Thunderbird is so much more vulnerable to it (right now) than
Evolution (where at least current versions rarely use mbox, unless you
import or export mail)... so for it I'd have said the inevitable debconf
warning would be appropriate.

Further my suggestion was, to inform users (typically via NEWS.Debian)
even when the issue has been fixed already, like in getmail, what has
happened over years.
It's like when you have some scientific application which does wrong
calculations... it's not fair to just fix it and think everything's fine
now... one also has to tell people that all their previous data is
likely wrong.

btw: I've always thought it meant mbox original ;-)


>   But first, you need to get
> support for better mbox formats on the important stuff.
Well I guess you'll agree that this is not that easy and usually a duty
for upstream.
I personally, may try to invest some time into postfix, but after my
struggles with the Evolution and TB upstreams, I have little interest to
- sorry for the rude tone - fix their crap.
Especially as it seems, well at least for TB, that mbox import/export is
coded quite crude in awkwardly many places...


> We [users/developers] can write patches to teach important software to use
> something less retarded than mboxo by default, and pester upstream to take
> them.  Just complaining about it obviously won't help, since people don't
> see it as a problem at all.  You need to do _all_ the leg work, write the
> new functionality, and test the heck out of it before you can really expect
> upstream to accept the change.
I think you know from your own experience, that one usually already has
a big stack of projects where one is involved in... and that changes to
core places of bigger projects like Evolution/TB are usually not just an
hour of coding.


> > If not, than the majority opinion might perhaps even convince the
> > maintainers to handle this with some higher severity :)
> That's not how it works.  Someone needs to come up with *well tested*
> patches for everything worth fixing.  THEN you can ask for some sort of
> Debian-wide pressure to get rid of mboxo outside of extra/old-libs...
Again, I've never asked from the Debian maintainers to write patches...
My point was that we need reasonable warnings for our users, such as
mentioned above.
I guess such warnings are very easy to add for any maintainer, right?

And as long as those are not in place, my point was, that a high
severity is appropriate to give at least users with the widespread
apt-listbugs a chance to notice what's going on.


Cheers,
Chris.


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Re: [OT] XML

[Chow Loong Jin]

On 26/11/2012 19:52, Jakub Wilk wrote:
> * Ivan Shmakov , 2012-11-26, 14:32:
>> Seriously, XML takes a lot of concerns off an application programmer. It
>> provides quoting, arbitrary hierarchical structure, support for different
>> encodings, etc. Why, don't you think that $ grep '[[:lower:]]' FILE is ever
>> supposed to work? For surely it isn't: grep has no way to know the encoding 
>> of
>> the input file, and relies on the locale instead. On the contrary, XML allows
>> for the encoding to be specified explicitly via a processing instruction. And
>> then, there's XPath, which takes the input dataset structure into account.
> 
> How do you search for a lowercase letter in XPath?
> 

Can't [[:lower:]] work with re:test(...) using the
http://exslt.org/regular-expressions namespace?

-- 
Kind regards,
Loong Jin



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Re: "Do not CC me"

[Barry Warsaw]

On Nov 26, 2012, at 08:03 PM, Thomas Goirand wrote:

>The solution to this is very simple. Have the mailing list manager to add a
>Reply-To: header on each messages.
>
>I've done this on few of the lists I manage, and since then, nobody sends
>double-messages.
>
>But, probably, mailman is too stupid to have such kind of options

Wrong.  Mailman has supported Reply-To munging for ages.

>(I use (and maintain in Debian) MLMMJ, which is used by big distros like
>Gentoo and SUSE).
>
>P.S: I know that the list manager adding a Reply-To: header breaks the RFC,
>and people setting-it up explicitly on their mail client, but it works very
>well...

Until someone accidentally sends a private response to the entire mailing
list.  This is a policy issue for which the majority consensus is that MLMs
should not munge Reply-To.  There are contrary views, which is why Mailman
supports either (we generally support the relevant RFCs but leave policy
decisions to list owners).

If you really want to understand both sides of the argument:

http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html
http://marc.merlins.org/netrants/reply-to-useful.html

Cheers,
-Barry


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Re: [OT] XML

[Ivan Shmakov]

> Jakub Wilk  writes:
> * Ivan Shmakov , 2012-11-26, 14:32:

 >> Seriously, XML takes a lot of concerns off an application
 >> programmer. It provides quoting, arbitrary hierarchical structure,
 >> support for different encodings, etc.  Why, don't you think that
 >> $ grep [[:lower:]]' FILE is ever supposed to work?  For surely it
 >> isn't: grep has no way to know the encoding of the input file, and
 >> relies on the locale instead.  On the contrary, XML allows for the
 >> encoding to be specified explicitly via a processing instruction.
 >> And then, there's XPath, which takes the input dataset structure
 >> into account.

 > How do you search for a lowercase letter in XPath?

With fn:matches (WHERE, "\p{Ll}")?

Specifically, if you're interested in all ENTRY elements, whose
respective KEY's contain a lower-case letter, it may look
something like the following:

//x:entry[fn:matches (x:key/text (), "\p{Ll}")]

For instance, using xqilla(1) (xmlstarlet(1) doesn't seem to
support fn:matches ()):

$ cat < cf.xml 


  
there be an all-lowercase key
all-lowercase key's value
  
  
THERE BE AN ALL-UPPERCASE KEY
all-uppercase key's value
  
  
There be a Mixed-case Key
mixed-case key's value
  

$ xqilla -i cf.xml \
  <(printf %s\\n '\
declare namespace x="urn:uuid:95364fc4-e68d-492e-a122-7b3b37bdab10";' \
'//x:entry[fn:matches (x:key/text (), "\p{Ll}")]') 

there be an all-lowercase key
all-lowercase key's value
  

There be a Mixed-case Key
mixed-case key's value
  
$ 

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