Re: Question: Packages.xz and Contents-.xz

[Henrique de Moraes Holschuh]

On Thu, 15 Nov 2012, Peter Samuelson wrote:
> [Hideki Yamane]
> > > henrich@hp:/tmp$ du -k Packages.*
> > > 6052  Packages.bz2
> > > 5812  Packages.xz
> > > henrich@hp:/tmp$ time bzip2 -d Packages.bz2 
> > > 
> > > real  0m0.999s
> > > user  0m0.956s
> > > sys   0m0.020s
> > > 
> > > henrich@hp:/tmp$ rm Packages
> > > henrich@hp:/tmp$ time xz -d Packages.xz 
> > > 
> > > real  0m0.565s
> > > user  0m0.532s
> > > sys   0m0.032s
> > 
> > > henrich@hp:/tmp$ time gzip -d Packages.gz 
> > > gzip: Packages already exists; do you wish to overwrite (y or n)? y
> > > 
> > > real  0m1.932s
> > > user  0m0.272s
> > > sys   0m0.012s
> 
> While your post has good points, we need to notice that because of the
> interactive prompt, the 'real' time value for gzip -d is misleading.
> 
> >  decompression speed is 
> >   best  : xz
> >   second: bz2
> >   third : gz
> 
> If you ignore the time gzip spent waiting for you to type 'y', it is
> the fastest, not the slowest.

Yes, gzip is the fastest decompressor (measured by input ratio or user
time).

However, when there is a major difference in compression ratio or the input
ratio is low because of external factors (e.g. low bandwidth), a stream with
much higher compresison rate and a slower decompressor can still be much
faster when you measure the output ratio.  I.e. it will use more cpu
time/energy, but it will finish the job sooner.

gzip is really fast and widely supported, and it also has much lower
worst-case memory requirements (xz isn't a memory pig when decompressing,
but how much memory it needs depends on the input stream and the worst case
is 6 times the best case, at ~63MiB).  However, xz compresses so much
better, it is not funny.  We should keep both.

bzip2 should be deprecated (i.e. we should transition to xz).  We keep bzip2
as standard because there is way too much .bz2 around, but we start
generating .xz instead of .bz2 when we can.

I've found that data which depends on large windows *and* sub-window
reordering to compress at its best does _really_ well in xz, and hideously
in gzip and bzip2.  Play with the "intel-microcode" Debian source package
and several compressors, and you will see what I mean.

-- 
  "One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring
  them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond
  where the shadows lie." -- The Silicon Valley Tarot
  Henrique Holschuh


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Wheezy-ignore for good-not-evil bugs

[Neil McGovern]

tags 692614 + wheezy-ignore
tags 692619 + wheezy-ignore
tags 692624 + wheezy-ignore
tags 692625 + wheezy-ignore
tags 692627 + wheezy-ignore
tags 692628 + wheezy-ignore
tags 692629 + wheezy-ignore
tags 692630 + wheezy-ignore
tags 692631 + wheezy-ignore
tags 692613 + wheezy-ignore
tags 692615 + wheezy-ignore
tags 692626 + wheezy-ignore
tags 692621 + wheezy-ignore
thanks

These bugs aren't gonna get fixed in time - tagging ignore
appropriately.

Neil
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Re: Gentoo guys starting a fork of udev

[Kelly Clowers]

On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 12:47 PM, Steve Langasek  wrote:
>
> BTW, if systemd is a good design, why does it rely so heavily on
> socket-based activation, which has fundamentally unmaintainable security?

Please excuse the intrusion of a mere user, but I haven't heard that
one yet, can you elaborate?

Cheers,
Kelly Clowers


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Re: Wheezy-ignore for good-not-evil bugs

[Jakub Wilk]

* Neil McGovern , 2012-11-16, 15:46:
These bugs aren't gonna get fixed in time - tagging ignore 
appropriately.


Excellent. Now Mr Crockford can say that his license is good enough for 
Debian.


--
Jakub Wilk


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Re: Wheezy-ignore for good-not-evil bugs

[Neil McGovern]

On Fri, Nov 16, 2012 at 04:58:45PM +0100, Jakub Wilk wrote:
> * Neil McGovern , 2012-11-16, 15:46:
> >These bugs aren't gonna get fixed in time - tagging ignore
> >appropriately.
> 
> Excellent. Now Mr Crockford can say that his license is good enough
> for Debian.
> 

No he can't.

Neil
(Providing as much useful content as you did in your message)
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Re: Wheezy-ignore for good-not-evil bugs

[Paul Tagliamonte]

On Fri, Nov 16, 2012 at 10:58 AM, Jakub Wilk  wrote:

> * Neil McGovern , 2012-11-16, 15:46:
>
>  These bugs aren't gonna get fixed in time - tagging ignore appropriately.
>>
>
> Excellent. Now Mr Crockford can say that his license is good enough for
> Debian.



I don't think our dear friend Mr. Crockford could say that, given it's
getting rejected by ftp-masters. I missed it when I pushed node-jslint, it
got rejected by the ftp-masters and it's clearly non-DFSG.

I think it's just a case where we have some legally unenforceable nonsense
in a package for a release (perhaps SRU-able once it's fixed)


>
>
> --
> Jakub Wilk
>
>
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Re: Wheezy-ignore for good-not-evil bugs

[Gunnar Wolf]

Jakub Wilk dijo [Fri, Nov 16, 2012 at 04:58:45PM +0100]:
> * Neil McGovern , 2012-11-16, 15:46:
> >These bugs aren't gonna get fixed in time - tagging ignore
> >appropriately.
> 
> Excellent. Now Mr Crockford can say that his license is good enough
> for Debian.

The bugs are tagged 'ignore' for one of our releases, but they are
clearly regarded as bugs by ftp-masters and the release team. And by
many of us around.


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Re: Wheezy-ignore for good-not-evil bugs

[Russ Allbery]

Jakub Wilk  writes:
> * Neil McGovern , 2012-11-16, 15:46:

>> These bugs aren't gonna get fixed in time - tagging ignore
>> appropriately.

> Excellent. Now Mr Crockford can say that his license is good enough for
> Debian.

Regardless of the accuracy of this statement (which other people have
already discussed), I don't think this matters much one way or the other.
By all accounts, he's uninterested in changing the license anyway and is
unlikely to be persuaded to do so by anything we do or choose not to do.
Attempting to manipulate his behavior (or even to score public relations
points) by manipulating the content of the release seems rather indirect
and unlikely to be helpful.

I think we should do what's best for our users and the release and not
worry too much about what non-existent messages he might derive from those
actions.

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)   


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Re: RFC on MBF (non-freeness of "The Software shall be used for Good, not Evil")

[Jon Dowland]

user j...@debian.org
usertags 692614 + good-not-evil
usertags 692619 + good-not-evil
usertags 692624 + good-not-evil
usertags 692625 + good-not-evil
usertags 692627 + good-not-evil
usertags 692628 + good-not-evil
usertags 692629 + good-not-evil
usertags 692630 + good-not-evil
usertags 692631 + good-not-evil
usertags 692613 + good-not-evil
usertags 692615 + good-not-evil
usertags 692626 + good-not-evil
usertags 692621 + good-not-evil
thanks

On Fri, Nov 09, 2012 at 04:25:43PM +, Jon Dowland wrote:
> I've found one of these - #692614 - is the whole set collected together
> under a common usertag or similar?

I couldn't find one so I created one, above, using the list of bugs
Neil found for his wheezy-ignore tagging. Please let me know, and 
the release team probably, if we've missed one, and please use usertags
in future to collect together bugs under a single MBF.


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Re: Usertags browser/search

[Wookey]

+++ Jon Dowland [2012-11-16 19:41 +]:
>  and please use usertags
> in future to collect together bugs under a single MBF.

Usertags are very flexible but rather undiscoverable. 

I discovered this yesterday which lets you find out what users exist
and thus what tags:
http://udd.debian.org/cgi-bin/bts-usertags.cgi?
and, arguably more useful the 'by users' list:
http://udd.debian.org/cgi-bin/bts-usertags.cgi?browse=users

Just thought it worth mentioning to help others who find
users/usertags mysterious (took me ages to understand how it works)

I do think it would be useful to have more tags in the default
namespace as nearly all user namespaces have exactly one tag, but
that's a different discussion. 

Wookey
-- 
Principal hats:  Linaro, Emdebian, Wookware, Balloonboard, ARM
http://wookware.org/


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Re: Gentoo guys starting a fork of udev

[Salvo Tomaselli]

On Thursday 15 November 2012 00.57.50 John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
> People are constantly insisting that systemd is too bloated or unreliable,
> but yet no one has really come up with real examples to prove that.

Hum, actually when i tried it, i couldn't halt or reboot my machine without an 
hard reset. I suppose that is a real example of bloated?

http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=661239

Bye
-- 
Salvo Tomaselli


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Bug#693481: ITP: python-webm -- python interface to the Google WebM video/image codec

[Dmitry Smirnov]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
X-Debbugs-CC: debian-devel@lists.debian.org

   Package name: python-webm
Version: 0.2.2
Upstream Author: Daniele Esposti 
URL: https://code.google.com/p/python-webm
License: BSD-2-clause (modified)
Description: python interface to the Google WebM video/image codec
 The interface uses ctypes to call the libvpx/libwebm Google



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Re: Gentoo guys starting a fork of udev

[John Paul Adrian Glaubitz]

On Fri, Nov 16, 2012 at 11:45:45PM +0100, Salvo Tomaselli wrote:
> On Thursday 15 November 2012 00.57.50 John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
> > People are constantly insisting that systemd is too bloated or unreliable,
> > but yet no one has really come up with real examples to prove that.
> 
> Hum, actually when i tried it, i couldn't halt or reboot my machine without 
> an 
> hard reset. I suppose that is a real example of bloated?
> 
> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=661239

Hmm, that doesn't look like a valid bug report to me. Especially I
don't see why dhclient would be able to disrupt systemd in such a way
that you'd need to do a hard reboot.

Adrian

-- 
 .''`.  John Paul Adrian Glaubitz
: :' :  Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org
`. `'   Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de
  `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546  0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913


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Re: Gentoo guys starting a fork of udev

[Kelly Clowers]

On Fri, Nov 16, 2012 at 2:45 PM, Salvo Tomaselli  wrote:
> On Thursday 15 November 2012 00.57.50 John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
>> People are constantly insisting that systemd is too bloated or unreliable,
>> but yet no one has really come up with real examples to prove that.
>
> Hum, actually when i tried it, i couldn't halt or reboot my machine without an
> hard reset. I suppose that is a real example of bloated?
>
> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=661239

That would be unreliable, not bloated.

Bloated could mean a number of things, roughly: Does too many things,
links to too many libraries, takes up too much memory, disk space or
possibly CPU time for what it does. Pretty much always a value
judgement at some level. Clearly all interrelated, but nothing
(directly) to do with unreliable. Doing a lot without good enough QC
could lead to unreliability, but it doesn't have to. And code can be
unreliable while being very tight and compact - though it should
decrease the likelihood.

Cheers,
Kelly Clowers


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Re: Gentoo guys starting a fork of udev

[Salvo Tomaselli]

> > http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=661239
> 
> Hmm, that doesn't look like a valid bug report to me. Especially I
> don't see why dhclient would be able to disrupt systemd in such a way
> that you'd need to do a hard reboot.

I don't see why either (that makes it a bug and not a super awesome feature i 
suppose), but i couldn't reboot, maybe there were other causes for that but 
the bugreport has just been ignored, and i am no expert on systemd and have no 
idea where to begin to investigate.

Maybe systemd is faster, but i think being unable to do a normal reboot is an 
important drawback.

-- 
Salvo Tomaselli


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Re: Gentoo guys starting a fork of udev

[Paul Wise]

On Sat, Nov 17, 2012 at 7:22 AM, Salvo Tomaselli wrote:
>
>> > http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=661239
>>
>> Hmm, that doesn't look like a valid bug report to me. Especially I
>> don't see why dhclient would be able to disrupt systemd in such a way
>> that you'd need to do a hard reboot.
>
> I don't see why either (that makes it a bug and not a super awesome feature i
> suppose), but i couldn't reboot, maybe there were other causes for that but
> the bugreport has just been ignored, and i am no expert on systemd and have no
> idea where to begin to investigate.
>
> Maybe systemd is faster, but i think being unable to do a normal reboot is an
> important drawback.

systemd reboots just fine. It also kills all processes just like sysvinit does.

-- 
bye,
pabs

http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise


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Bug#693492: ITP: litecoin -- peer-to-peer network based digital currency

[Dmitry Smirnov]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
X-Debbugs-CC: debian-devel@lists.debian.org

   Package name: litecoin
Version: 0.6.3c
Upstream Author: Litecoin Developers
URL: https://github.com/litecoin-project/litecoin
License: MIT/X11, ISC
Description: peer-to-peer network based digital currency
 Litecoin is a free open source peer-to-peer electronic cash system that
 is completely decentralized, without the need for a central server or
 trusted parties.  Users hold the crypto keys to their own money and
 transact directly with each other, with the help of a P2P network to
 check for double-spending. Litecoin is a fork of Bitcoin.


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Re: Gentoo guys starting a fork of udev

[Salvo Tomaselli]

> systemd reboots just fine. It also kills all processes just like sysvinit
> does.
Some help in "how to find the cause" would be much more appreciated and useful 
than: "it's not happening, you were just dreaming that".

-- 
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Re: Gentoo guys starting a fork of udev

[David Baird]

On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 3:37 AM, martin f krafft  wrote:

> also sprach Thomas Goirand  [2012.11.14.0412 +0100]:
> > As Gentoo guys and some major kernel people are protesting about the
> > insanity Kay and Lennart have done to udev,
>
> I cannot help but notice that Kay and Lennart were both
> Gentoo-freaks when they took on udev and at least I always
> attributed much of what was wrong with udev from the start (e.g. the
> configuration file format) to being born in an environment where
> people still compile from source. ;)
>
>
hahaha, funny. Not. These stupid jokes about gentoo are getting old now.

Re: Gentoo guys starting a fork of udev

[Russell Coker]

On Sat, 17 Nov 2012, Paul Wise  wrote:
> > Maybe systemd is faster, but i think being unable to do a normal reboot
> > is an important drawback.
> 
> systemd reboots just fine. It also kills all processes just like sysvinit
> does.

I have also had problems with systemd not rebooting as fast as sysvinit and 
sometimes hanging on a reboot or shutdown request.  I haven't filed bug reports 
because I haven't had enough time to investigate it properly (sorry, fixing 
bugs in my own packages is my priority).

We should keep in mind that systemd is still relatively new and should be 
expected to have some bugs.

Some of my virtual servers use sysvinit in Dom0 and systemd in the DomUs.  
That gives the fast reboot for virtual servers that is convenience and the 
reliability for the Dom0 which I haven't yet got from systemd.

-- 
My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/
My Documents Bloghttp://doc.coker.com.au/


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Re: Gentoo guys starting a fork of udev

[Michael Biebl]

On 17.11.2012 03:43, Russell Coker wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Nov 2012, Paul Wise  wrote:
>>> Maybe systemd is faster, but i think being unable to do a normal reboot
>>> is an important drawback.
>>
>> systemd reboots just fine. It also kills all processes just like sysvinit
>> does.
> 
> I have also had problems with systemd not rebooting as fast as sysvinit and 
> sometimes hanging on a reboot or shutdown request.  I haven't filed bug 
> reports 

We have been seeing issues with dhcp/ifupdown hooks which were making
restart/reload requests for services during shutdown. This could lead to
90sec timeouts, before systemd killed those services.
This has been fixed in 44-5, so it would be great if you could test
again and see if it works now.

We are already way off-topic now, so please, if you still encounter a
problem, do file a bug.

Thanks,
Michael

-- 
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Re: Gentoo guys starting a fork of udev

[Luke Leighton]

Roger Leigh  codelibre.net> writes:

> If you want a reliable system, you need a reliable PID 1.  

yes. this was i believe why richard lightman implemented depinit
in i think it was under 1,000 lines of code. he was delighted
when i came up with a simple modification which would allow
him to remove a further block of that, out-sourcing the job
to a shell script and increasing the flexibility at the same
time.

unfortunately i haven't heard from richard since 2008. he's
gone even more reclusive than he was before i met him. which
is a pity. we need more people in the world with his level
of quiet genius.

l.



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