Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Christian PERRIER]

Quoting Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org):

> Sure, certainly true.  But, assuming that we have a consensus that the
> distinction no longer matters and just causes extra work (something that
> I'm inclined to agree with but that I don't think we can assume we've
> decided on yet), I hate to see us doing the expedient thing because doing
> the right thing is too hard.


Isn't there something called FHS and which would be the thing to
change first? Or aren't we sticking to the FHS anyway or just don't
care?

I'm probably a bit old school here, but I think that the distinction
between bin and sbin still makes sense. Maybe some binaries are
misplaced (for instance, if ifconfig makes sense to be used as normal
user, then it should be moved to /bin) but is that a reason to throw
the baby out with the bathwater?

And, if we keep /*/bin and /*/sbin separated, then it makes sense to NOT
have /*/sbin in the normal users' PATH.

TBH, I'm not entirely sure that taking Fedora as example here is the
best option, but I might be biased:)

We could also put everything in the same directory, call it
/windows and include it in the default PATH.




signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Vincent Bernat]

 ❦  8 août 2012 09:02 CEST, Christian PERRIER  :

> I'm probably a bit old school here, but I think that the distinction
> between bin and sbin still makes sense. Maybe some binaries are
> misplaced (for instance, if ifconfig makes sense to be used as normal
> user, then it should be moved to /bin) but is that a reason to throw
> the baby out with the bathwater?

Moving ifconfig to /bin would break a lot of things calling
`/sbin/ifconfig`.
-- 
Don't over-comment.
- The Elements of Programming Style (Kernighan & Plauger)


pgpgbwDjn83CL.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Michael Stummvoll]

Hi,

> Moving ifconfig to /bin would break a lot of things calling
> `/sbin/ifconfig`.

there could be a link for compatiblity

Kind Regards,
Michael


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Lars Wirzenius]

On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 09:02:13AM +0200, Christian PERRIER wrote:
> Isn't there something called FHS and which would be the thing to
> change first? Or aren't we sticking to the FHS anyway or just don't
> care?

If we keep /sbin as a symlink to /bin, and similarly for the other sbin
directories, we're still compatible with the FHS.

-- 
I wrote a book on personal productivity: http://gtdfh.branchable.com/


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Bernd Zeimetz]

On 08/08/2012 03:16 AM, Ulrich Dangel wrote:
> Currently the default PATH for Debian does not include /sbin, /usr/sbin, nor
> /usr/local/sbin. If an user wants to run a program in either /sbin/ or 
> /usr/sbin
> the full path must be specified.
>

Or the user just adds those directories to $PATH in $SHELLrc/profile/

Experienced users should be able to do this easily. And those who don't
knwo what to do with the tools in */sbin/* probably don't want/need them
in $PATH.

So I think at least for now its just fine to have the directories and
PATH settings separated.


-- 
 Bernd ZeimetzDebian GNU/Linux Developer
 http://bzed.dehttp://www.debian.org
 GPG Fingerprint: ECA1 E3F2 8E11 2432 D485  DD95 EB36 171A 6FF9 435F


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/502218a8.6060...@bzed.de

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Alberto Fuentes]

On 08/08/2012 09:43 AM, Bernd Zeimetz wrote:

Experienced users should be able to do this easily. And those who don't
knwo what to do with the tools in */sbin/* probably don't want/need them
in $PATH.



I think the topic in here is good defaults for debian/"more common case" 
no if debian/users are able to handle such changes. :)


I also add sbin to path as one the first steps after installation and i 
think is a good thing. Not sure whats the best technical approach tho ( 
merge directories, add to path... link to bin only for those binaries 
that make sense there...)



--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/50222327.9090...@qindel.com

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Holger Levsen]

On Mittwoch, 8. August 2012, Michael Stummvoll wrote:
> what exactly is the actually reason that a default normal user has ip in
> his PATH but not ifconfig (also route)? 

hysteric raisins.





("ip a" convinced me to use ip instead of ifconfig: it's shorter to type.)


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201208081032.30796.hol...@layer-acht.org

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Thomas Goirand]

On 08/08/2012 10:32 AM, Carlos Alberto Lopez Perez wrote:
> I think this is a great idea :)
>
> You can't imagine how much I blame Debian each time I have to type the
> full path "/sbin/ifconfig" as a non-root user on virtual servers to just
> know the IP address the DHCP server assigned to the machine.
>   
Start using the right tool for the job (I mean: "ip addr show"),
and stop blaming Debian. Using ifconfig by the way will show
you only part of the information (eg: if there's more than one
IP assign, ifconfig will not show it).

If ifconfig is the only reason why we should move everything,
change $PATH and so on, please find a better excuse, because
I'm not at all buying into that one!

Thomas Goirand (zigo)


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/50223b38.3060...@debian.org

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Arno Töll]

Hi,

On 08.08.2012 10:32, Holger Levsen wrote:
> On Mittwoch, 8. August 2012, Michael Stummvoll wrote:
>> what exactly is the actually reason that a default normal user has ip in
>> his PATH but not ifconfig (also route)? 
> 
> hysteric raisins.

historic, rather. ifconfig and route were around already when everyone
insisted on the separation of /bin and /sbin. /bin/ip is slightly newer
and supposed to replace ifconfig/route some day entirely.

I don't think we have concrete plans to get rid of net-tools in a
foreseeable future though.


-- 
with kind regards,
Arno Töll
IRC: daemonkeeper on Freenode/OFTC
GnuPG Key-ID: 0x9D80F36D



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Thomas Goirand]

On 08/08/2012 04:28 PM, Alberto Fuentes wrote:
> On 08/08/2012 09:43 AM, Bernd Zeimetz wrote:
>> Experienced users should be able to do this easily. And those who don't
>> knwo what to do with the tools in */sbin/* probably don't want/need them
>> in $PATH.
>
>
> I think the topic in here is good defaults for debian/"more common
> case" no if debian/users are able to handle such changes. :)
>
> I also add sbin to path as one the first steps after installation and
> i think is a good thing. Not sure whats the best technical approach
> tho ( merge directories, add to path... link to bin only for those
> binaries that make sense there...)
>
>
Exactly what do you need from sbin as a user?

If you have some examples, then please file bugs...

Thomas


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/50223be8.5010...@debian.org

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Arno Töll]

Hi,

On 08.08.2012 12:11, Thomas Goirand wrote:
> Start using the right tool for the job (I mean: "ip addr show"),
> and stop blaming Debian. Using ifconfig by the way will show
> you only part of the information (eg: if there's more than one
> IP assign, ifconfig will not show it).

ifconfig eth0 192.168.0.1 up
ifconfig eth0:0 192.168.0.2 up
ifconfig

It does not list addresses you added with ip without adding a
sub-interface, however. With respect to visibility, one might wonder if
doing that that is a good idea after all.

-- 
with kind regards,
Arno Töll
IRC: daemonkeeper on Freenode/OFTC
GnuPG Key-ID: 0x9D80F36D



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Marco d'Itri]

On Aug 08, Arno Töll  wrote:

> historic, rather. ifconfig and route were around already when everyone
> insisted on the separation of /bin and /sbin. /bin/ip is slightly newer
> and supposed to replace ifconfig/route some day entirely.
Just for the records, iproute entirely replaced ifconfig/route long ago.
The only reason for keeping around the old programs is compatibility 
with other packages not yet updated and to not scare people who do not 
know better.

(Does anybody want to try removing net-tools and see what breaks?)

-- 
ciao,
Marco


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Marco d'Itri]

On Aug 08, Russ Allbery  wrote:

> Sure, certainly true.  But, assuming that we have a consensus that the
> distinction no longer matters and just causes extra work (something that
> I'm inclined to agree with but that I don't think we can assume we've
> decided on yet), I hate to see us doing the expedient thing because doing
> the right thing is too hard.
Is the goal fixing a problem or reaching some ideal of file system 
organization?
Merging /sbin and /bin right now does not solve any other problem than 
changing the $PATH, but requires *much* more work.

-- 
ciao,
Marco


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Adam Borowski]

On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 03:16:59AM +0200, Ulrich Dangel wrote:
> Currently the default PATH for Debian does not include /sbin, /usr/sbin, nor
> /usr/local/sbin. If an user wants to run a program in either /sbin/ or 
> /usr/sbin
> the full path must be specified.
> 
> Changing the default PATH for normal users to include /sbin, /usr/sbin as 
> well as
> /usr/local/sbin would be a great thing for simplifying command line usage for
> normal users.

Could you please tell me a single benefit from such a change?  All I see are
downsides.  It would degrade tab completion and pollute the namespace.

The reason you say, is a single obsolete tool, ifconfig, being in the wrong
directory.  So let's instead move it to /bin/ -- or preferably, to /dev/null
(unless depended upon).


-- 
Copyright and patents were never about promoting culture and innovations;
from the very start they were legalized bribes to give the king some income
and to let businesses get rid of competition.  For some history, please read
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_Monopolies_1623


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120808103640.ga13...@angband.pl

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[David Given]

Thomas Goirand wrote:
[...]
> Exactly what do you need from sbin as a user?

I use stuff from sbin as user all the time. A quick glance at /sbin
shows these commands that I use on a regular basis:

blkid
fdisk
all the fscks
all the mkfss
hdparm
ifconfig (before this discussion I'd never even *heard* of ip)
iwconfig
mount.cifs
parted
route
showmount

Like the parent, I add /sbin and /usr/sbin to my path immediately after
installing a new Debian system.

-- 
┌─── ｄｇ＠ｃｏｗｌａｒｋ．ｃｏｍ ─ http://www.cowlark.com ─
│ "Parents let children ride bicycles on the street. But parents do not
│ allow children to hear vulgar words. Therefore we can deduce that
│ cursing is more dangerous than being hit by a car." --- Scott Adams


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/50223db4.9000...@gmail.com

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Alberto Fuentes]

On 08/08/2012 12:14 PM, Thomas Goirand wrote:

On 08/08/2012 04:28 PM, Alberto Fuentes wrote:

On 08/08/2012 09:43 AM, Bernd Zeimetz wrote:

Experienced users should be able to do this easily. And those who don't
knwo what to do with the tools in */sbin/* probably don't want/need them
in $PATH.



I think the topic in here is good defaults for debian/"more common
case" no if debian/users are able to handle such changes. :)

I also add sbin to path as one the first steps after installation and
i think is a good thing. Not sure whats the best technical approach
tho ( merge directories, add to path... link to bin only for those
binaries that make sense there...)



Exactly what do you need from sbin as a user?

If you have some examples, then please file bugs...

Thomas




blkid, brctl, ifconfig, route, run-level are my main reasons. There 
might be more...


Other distros looked for similar functionality using the easier way to 
do it, that is, adding path to $PATH but im not sure if thats the best 
technical solution (nor i know what that would be)


Since we are not lazy and pursue technical excellence, we can think of 
what makes more sense. Maybe add a few links to bin for the binaries 
that make sense is more than enough. In any case we should unify 
criteria. Mount seems to rest in /bin instead of /sbin for example...


Maybe merge directories is what makes more sense nowadays... I dont know :)


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/50224611.6050...@qindel.com

[OT] ifconfig(8)

[Ivan Shmakov]

> Marco d'Itri  writes:
> On Aug 08, Arno Töll  wrote:

 >> ifconfig and route were around already when everyone insisted on the
 >> separation of /bin and /sbin.  /bin/ip is slightly newer and
 >> supposed to replace ifconfig/route some day entirely.

 > Just for the records, iproute entirely replaced ifconfig/route long
 > ago.

Curiously enough, ifconfig(8) shows RX/TX byte counts, and,
somehow, I didn't manage to get a similar output from iproute.
Any pointers?  TIA.

 > The only reason for keeping around the old programs is compatibility
 > with other packages not yet updated and to not scare people who do
 > not know better.

 > (Does anybody want to try removing net-tools and see what breaks?)

I guess that $ apt-cache rdepends may be a safer check, like:

$ apt-cache rdepends --no-suggests net-tools 

However, it made me wonder, why ifupdown Suggests: net-tools?

-- 
FSF associate member #7257  http://sf-day.org/


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/86k3x9k5xn.fsf...@gray.siamics.net

Re: [OT] ifconfig(8)

[Timo Juhani Lindfors]

Ivan Shmakov  writes:
>   Curiously enough, ifconfig(8) shows RX/TX byte counts, and,
>   somehow, I didn't manage to get a similar output from iproute.
>   Any pointers?  TIA.

$ ip -s link show lo
1: lo:  mtu 16436 qdisc noqueue state UNKNOWN 
link/loopback 00:00:00:00:00:00 brd 00:00:00:00:00:00
RX: bytes  packets  errors  dropped overrun mcast   
1686679058 6901861  0   0   0   0  
TX: bytes  packets  errors  dropped carrier collsns 
1686679058 6901861  0   0   0   0  



-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/84a9y5vdzf@sauna.l.org

Re: [OT] ifconfig(8)

[Ivan Shmakov]

> Timo Juhani Lindfors  writes:
> Ivan Shmakov  writes:

 >> Curiously enough, ifconfig(8) shows RX/TX byte counts, and, somehow,
 >> I didn't manage to get a similar output from iproute.  Any pointers?
 >> TIA.

 > $ ip -s link show lo
 > 1: lo:  mtu 16436 qdisc noqueue state UNKNOWN 
 > link/loopback 00:00:00:00:00:00 brd 00:00:00:00:00:00
 > RX: bytes  packets  errors  dropped overrun mcast   
 > 1686679058 6901861  0   0   0   0  
 > TX: bytes  packets  errors  dropped carrier collsns 
 > 1686679058 6901861  0   0   0   0  

At last, I can forget about ifconfig(8).  Thanks!

-- 
FSF associate member #7257  http://sf-day.org/


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/86fw7xk548@gray.siamics.net

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Gergely Nagy]

David Given  writes:

> Thomas Goirand wrote:
> [...]
>> Exactly what do you need from sbin as a user?
>
> I use stuff from sbin as user all the time. A quick glance at /sbin
> shows these commands that I use on a regular basis:
>
> blkid
> fdisk
> all the fscks
> all the mkfss
> hdparm
> ifconfig (before this discussion I'd never even *heard* of ip)
> iwconfig
> mount.cifs
> parted
> route
> showmount
>
> Like the parent, I add /sbin and /usr/sbin to my path immediately after
> installing a new Debian system.

But, you know what those commands do, and I think we can agree, that
most - if not all - of them are quite close to being tools for the
admin, even if they don't necessarily require root. A 'regular' user on
a multi-user system will not likely need any of them.

It *might* make sense to (optionally) add */sbin to the PATH of the
first user installed. I wouldn't add it for everyone else too, however.

-- 
|8]


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/877gt9myyz.fsf@algernon.balabit

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Adam Borowski]

On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 12:22:50PM +0200, Marco d'Itri wrote:
> On Aug 08, Arno Töll  wrote:
> > historic, rather. ifconfig and route were around already when everyone
> > insisted on the separation of /bin and /sbin. /bin/ip is slightly newer
> > and supposed to replace ifconfig/route some day entirely.
> Just for the records, iproute entirely replaced ifconfig/route long ago.
> The only reason for keeping around the old programs is compatibility 
> with other packages not yet updated and to not scare people who do not 
> know better.

Using ifconfig can have quite nasty effects: for example, it will hide any
IPv4 addresses beyond the first on an interface, leading to hard to diagnose
problems.

> (Does anybody want to try removing net-tools and see what breaks?)

[{...}/debian/unpacked/binary]$ grep -rlF ifconfig {,s}bin usr/{,s}bin etc
(attached)
395 matches.  A bunch are false positives, or even alternate implementations
(like busybox).  And emacs, which apparently uses ifconfig too.

121 packages, too many to even think about getting rid of ifconfig in the
short term...

-- 
Copyright and patents were never about promoting culture and innovations;
from the very start they were legalized bribes to give the king some income
and to let businesses get rid of competition.  For some history, please read
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_Monopolies_1623
bin/busybox
etc/ahcp/ahcp-config.sh
etc/apf-firewall/firewall
etc/apf-firewall/internals/internals.conf
etc/apf-firewall/vnet/main.vnet
etc/apf-firewall/vnet/vnetgen
etc/apm/suspend.d/linux-wlan-ng-suspend
etc/arno-iptables-firewall/plugins/dsl-ppp-modem.conf
etc/avahi/avahi-autoipd.action
etc/avr-evtd/EventScript
etc/complete.tcsh
etc/fake/.fakerc
etc/fwsnort/fwsnort.conf
etc/ha.d/rc.d/ip-request
etc/init.d/bind9
etc/init.d/dhcp-probe
etc/init.d/dirsrv
etc/init.d/dirsrv-admin
etc/init.d/mopd
etc/init.d/pmacct
etc/init.d/uacctd
etc/init.d/wmaloader
etc/isdn/init.d.functions
etc/kvm/kvm-ifup
etc/logcheck/ignore.d.server/openvpn
etc/network/if-pre-up.d/wireless-tools
etc/network/if-up.d/00check-network-cable
etc/procmeterrc
etc/procmeterrc.install
etc/psad/psad.conf
etc/qemu-ifup
etc/rootstrap/dhclient-script
etc/tkdesk/AppBar
etc/tkdesk/AppBar_Be
etc/udhcpc/default.script
etc/vmware-tools/scripts/vmware/network
etc/vmware-tools/vm-support
etc/vpnc/vpnc-script
etc/vtund.conf
etc/vz/dists/scripts/debian-3.x-add_ip.sh
etc/vz/dists/scripts/debian-add_ip.sh
etc/vz/dists/scripts/debian-del_ip.sh
etc/vz/dists/scripts/redhat-7.x_add_ip.sh
etc/vz/dists/scripts/redhat-add_ip.sh
etc/vz/dists/scripts/redhat-del_ip.sh
etc/vz/dists/scripts/slackware-9.x_del_ip.sh
etc/vz/dists/scripts/slackware-del_ip.sh
etc/vz/dists/scripts/suse-8.x_del_ip.sh
etc/vz/dists/scripts/suse-del_ip.sh
etc/whereami/whereami.conf
etc/wicd/scripts/preconnect/set_wireless_mac_from_eth0
etc/wlan/shared
etc/wpa_supplicant/functions.sh
etc/xen/scripts/network-bridge
etc/xen/scripts/network-nat
etc/xen/scripts/qemu-ifup
etc/xen/scripts/vif-bridge
etc/xen/scripts/vif-nat
etc/xen/scripts/vif-route
etc/xen/scripts/vif-route-adt
etc/xen/scripts/vtpm-common.sh
sbin/bastille-ipchains
sbin/bastille-netfilter
sbin/essidscan
sbin/ifconfig
sbin/ifenslave-2.6
sbin/ifquery
sbin/setether
sbin/wifichoice.sh
sbin/wlanctl-ng
usr/bin/anytun-config
usr/bin/anytun-controld
usr/bin/anytun-showtables
usr/bin/ayttm
usr/bin/ccontrol-init
usr/bin/checkgmail
usr/bin/checkint
usr/bin/colgui
usr/bin/colmux
usr/bin/condor_gather_info
usr/bin/ctdb_diagnostics
usr/bin/dyndns
usr/bin/emacs23-lucid
usr/bin/emacs23-nox
usr/bin/emacs23-x
usr/bin/emacs24-lucid
usr/bin/emacs24-nox
usr/bin/emacs24-x
usr/bin/fwb_ipf
usr/bin/fwb_ipfw
usr/bin/fwb_ipt
usr/bin/fwb_pf
usr/bin/fwbuilder
usr/bin/inetutils-ifconfig
usr/bin/kvpnc
usr/bin/ldap-debian-edu-install
usr/bin/lsat
usr/bin/ltsp-cluster-info
usr/bin/mason
usr/bin/mgpnet
usr/bin/nast
usr/bin/network-config
usr/bin/network-test
usr/bin/netwox
usr/bin/nmon
usr/bin/ocat
usr/bin/ppc.real
usr/bin/purge_relay_logs
usr/bin/rkhunter
usr/bin/sb2-build-qemuserver
usr/bin/servefile
usr/bin/sitesummary2ldapdhcp
usr/bin/skyeye
usr/bin/tcpflow
usr/bin/timpsd
usr/bin/traffic_manager
usr/bin/traffic_shell
usr/bin/vde_l3
usr/bin/xnetcardconfig.real
usr/sbin/airbase-ng
usr/sbin/aireplay-ng
usr/sbin/airmon-ng
usr/sbin/airodump-ng
usr/sbin/airserv-ng
usr/sbin/airtun-ng
usr/sbin/anytun
usr/sbin/autosupport
usr/sbin/cf-agent
usr/sbin/cf-execd
usr/sbin/cf-key
usr/sbin/cf-know
usr/sbin/cf-monitord
usr/sbin/cf-promises
usr/sbin/cf-report
usr/sbin/cf-runagent
usr/sbin/cf-serverd
usr/sbin/cfagent
usr/sbin/cfenvd
usr/sbin/cfenvgraph
usr/sbin/cfexecd
usr/sbin/cfkey
usr/sbin/cfrun
usr/sbin/cfservd
usr/sbin/cfshow
usr/sbin/chkrootkit
usr/sbin/ddclient
usr/sbin/easside-ng
usr/sbin/edge
usr/sbin/fake
usr/sbin/fiaif-getdev
usr/sbin/firestarter
usr/sbin/fwcheck_psad
usr/sbin/fwsnort
usr/sbin/gadmin-bind
usr/sbin/gadmin-openvpn-server
usr/sbin/gvpe
usr/sbin/hb_report
usr/sbin/hostapd
usr/sbin/iodine
usr/sbin/iodine-client-

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Thomas Goirand]

On 08/08/2012 06:21 PM, David Given wrote:
> ifconfig (before this discussion I'd never even *heard* of ip)
>   
This kind of remark make be say that probably, it'd be
nice to have ifconfig display a warning as this one:

"ifconfig is deprecated, please use ip instead"

Thomas


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/50224ce3.9090...@debian.org

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Andrew Shadura]

Hello,

On Wed, 08 Aug 2012 19:26:27 +0800
Thomas Goirand  wrote:

> This kind of remark make be say that probably, it'd be
> nice to have ifconfig display a warning as this one:

> "ifconfig is deprecated, please use ip instead"

It'd be terrible. Please don't even think of it, okay? Let people
decide themselves what to use.

-- 
WBR, Andrew


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Alberto Fuentes]

On 08/08/2012 12:59 PM, Gergely Nagy wrote:

But, you know what those commands do, and I think we can agree, that
most - if not all - of them are quite close to being tools for the
admin, even if they don't necessarily require root. A 'regular' user on
a multi-user system will not likely need any of them.

It *might* make sense to (optionally) add */sbin to the PATH of the
first user installed. I wouldn't add it for everyone else too, however.


Where do you put the line there? what does average non admin joe want/need?

I dont think is up to us to decide what will the user want/need to 
use/know. We should allow to run any binary that makes sense to run by 
default without root permission and there is no need to be that 
condescending with the user



[extra non usuful comments]
Those commands without root permissions are not dangerous. ifconfig 
seems the most obvious that a non expert would want to run. 
ipconfig/ifconfig eth0 are easy to run/remember.


ip addr show eth0 is not. ip has too many switches/options. Its nice and 
its my tool of choice as an admin, but i would not say is user friendly 
and i understand it will be hard to kill (if it is ever killed)







--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/50224fbc.5000...@qindel.com

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Roger Leigh]

On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 01:30:54PM +0200, Andrew Shadura wrote:
> On Wed, 08 Aug 2012 19:26:27 +0800
> Thomas Goirand  wrote:
> 
> > This kind of remark make be say that probably, it'd be
> > nice to have ifconfig display a warning as this one:
> 
> > "ifconfig is deprecated, please use ip instead"
> 
> It'd be terrible. Please don't even think of it, okay? Let people
> decide themselves what to use.

As a distribution we have to decide on a default, and that is ip.
We took the effort to remove all use of ifconfig from ifupdown and
other related tools for wheezy precisely to make it removable and
optional, so that it can eventually be removed.

While it's fine for an end user to continue to use ifconfig, we
should continue to remove its use by ourselves and in programs in
Debian.  Warning the user that they are using an obsolete tool is
IMO entirely justified, particularly when there is a much better
and more capable replacement.


Regards,
Roger

-- 
  .''`.  Roger Leigh
 : :' :  Debian GNU/Linuxhttp://people.debian.org/~rleigh/
 `. `'   schroot and sbuild  http://alioth.debian.org/projects/buildd-tools
   `-GPG Public Key  F33D 281D 470A B443 6756 147C 07B3 C8BC 4083 E800


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120808114042.gy25...@codelibre.net

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Thorsten Glaser]

Russ Allbery dixit:

>I don't see any point in doing this as opposed to just moving everything
>from sbin into bin and making sbin a symlink to bin.

Alone the pain to do so (and the complaints from traditionalists)
should be enough to not do that.

There’s also the “if I want to have a look at what commands on the
system are used for administering, I can just ls /sbin /usr/sbin”
thing. Additionally, non-sudo users (especially on Derivatives, but
maybe also on Debian itself) might want to have that excluded again
(e.g. by the person administering their system), which would not work
were they all in one directory.

That being said, for a mostly-tech OS, having the sbins in the $PATH
is A Good Thing. In MirBSD, I’ve been using that for years.

bye,
//mirabilos
-- 
  “Having a smoking section in a restaurant is like having
  a peeing section in a swimming pool.”
-- Edward Burr


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: 
http://lists.debian.org/pine.bsm.4.64l.1208081154120.12...@herc.mirbsd.org

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Andrej N. Gritsenko]

Hello!

Andrew Shadura has written on Wednesday,  8 August, at 13:30:
>On Wed, 08 Aug 2012 19:26:27 +0800
>Thomas Goirand  wrote:

>> This kind of remark make be say that probably, it'd be
>> nice to have ifconfig display a warning as this one:

>> "ifconfig is deprecated, please use ip instead"

>It'd be terrible. Please don't even think of it, okay? Let people
>decide themselves what to use.

And also it'd be completely incorrect. It should be said instead:

"ifconfig is deprecated on Debian Linux, please use ip instead"

since ip is Linux-only tool if someone of you don't know and all other
Unix-like OS still use ifconfig as main tool and on any Unix I ever had
some account command like 'ifconfig -a' is de-facto standard one. World
doesn't consist only of Debian Linux you know. :)

And BTW, ip command is harder to use and it rather should be in the
category 'admin tool' than in the 'user tool'.

With best wishes.
Andriy.


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120808120744.ga5...@rep.kiev.ua

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Thomas Goirand]

On 08/08/2012 08:07 PM, Andrej N. Gritsenko wrote:
> And BTW, ip command is harder to use and it rather should be in the
> category 'admin tool' than in the 'user tool'.
>   
That's the 2nd time we have someone writing this in this thread.
However, ip is user accessible, while ifconfig isn't. So there's
something wrong here, either on the reasoning or on the
implementation (I would vote for the reasoning to be wrong:
a user with no knowledge would write click on the network
manager applet and then click on "Connection Information",
rather than using the command line tool).

Just my 2 cents :)

Thomas


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/50226106.4000...@debian.org

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Thomas Goirand]

On 08/08/2012 07:16 PM, Adam Borowski wrote:
> 121 packages, too many to even think about getting rid of ifconfig in the
> short term...
>   
I agree. However, proposing to put ifconfig in a user accessible way,
when it is in fact the wrong tool, is going backward, not forward.

Thomas


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/502261bc.5070...@debian.org

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Vincent Lefevre]

On 2012-08-08 13:38:36 +0200, Alberto Fuentes wrote:
> [extra non usuful comments]
> Those commands without root permissions are not dangerous. ifconfig seems
> the most obvious that a non expert would want to run. ipconfig/ifconfig eth0
> are easy to run/remember.
> 
> ip addr show eth0 is not. ip has too many switches/options. Its nice and its
> my tool of choice as an admin, but i would not say is user friendly and i
> understand it will be hard to kill (if it is ever killed)

And ip is not standard (not present on every Linux systems), whereas
I don't know any system without ifconfig.

Anyway it's up to the user to choose the commands he wants.

-- 
Vincent Lefèvre  - Web: 
100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: 
Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / AriC project (LIP, ENS-Lyon)


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120808131158.ga25...@xvii.vinc17.org

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Ben Hutchings]

On Wed, 2012-08-08 at 12:22 +0200, Marco d'Itri wrote:
> On Aug 08, Arno Töll  wrote:
> 
> > historic, rather. ifconfig and route were around already when everyone
> > insisted on the separation of /bin and /sbin. /bin/ip is slightly newer
> > and supposed to replace ifconfig/route some day entirely.
> Just for the records, iproute entirely replaced ifconfig/route long ago.
> The only reason for keeping around the old programs is compatibility 
> with other packages not yet updated and to not scare people who do not 
> know better.
> 
> (Does anybody want to try removing net-tools and see what breaks?)

I found unconditional use of ifconfig in:

/etc/init.d/bind9
/etc/qemu-ifup
/etc/network/if-pre-up.d/wireless-tools

(wireless-tools must die too, though)

Ben.

-- 
Ben Hutchings
Theory and practice are closer in theory than in practice.
- John Levine, moderator of comp.compilers


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Ulrich Dangel]

On 08/08/12 12:36, Adam Borowski wrote:

> Could you please tell me a single benefit from such a change?  All I see are
> downsides.  It would degrade tab completion and pollute the namespace.

Access to programs without the need to specify the full path. Not all programs 
in
the sbin directories require root privileges.

It is about providing good defaults for users.

> The reason you say, is a single obsolete tool, ifconfig, being in the wrong
> directory.  So let's instead move it to /bin/ -- or preferably, to /dev/null
> (unless depended upon).

Not just ifconfig, there is also route, iwconfig, blkid etc. And moving them to
other directories and add symlinks from sbin/$PROG to bin/$PROG is error prone.


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/5022678b.2010...@spamt.net

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Roger Leigh]

On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 03:20:11PM +0200, Ulrich Dangel wrote:
> Not just ifconfig, there is also route, iwconfig, blkid etc. And moving them
> to other directories and add symlinks from sbin/$PROG to bin/$PROG is error
> prone.

"Normal" users do not need to know or care about these tools.  Only
admins use them, or tools that set things up on behalf of the user.
Having them in the default path serves no purpose other than a minor
convenience to a minority of users.  The number of times I've wished
e.g. blkid was in my path is... zero.  Having these immediately
accessible to all users isn't strictly bad, but may cause confusion
and just pollutes the namespace for tab completion etc.  If you want
them in your path, it's trivial to add /sbin to it yourself.  I can't
see any compelling reason to make them the default.


Regards,
Roger

-- 
  .''`.  Roger Leigh
 : :' :  Debian GNU/Linuxhttp://people.debian.org/~rleigh/
 `. `'   schroot and sbuild  http://alioth.debian.org/projects/buildd-tools
   `-GPG Public Key  F33D 281D 470A B443 6756 147C 07B3 C8BC 4083 E800


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120808133843.gz25...@codelibre.net

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Osamu Aoki]

On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 10:32:30AM +0200, Holger Levsen wrote:
> On Mittwoch, 8. August 2012, Michael Stummvoll wrote:
> > what exactly is the actually reason that a default normal user has ip in
> > his PATH but not ifconfig (also route)? 
> 
> hysteric raisins.

Funny expression :-) 

> ("ip a" convinced me to use ip instead of ifconfig: it's shorter to type.)

Well shorter to type but longer to scroll back with IPv6 :-)
But I do agree to use ip command.

Osamu


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120808133538.GB8500@goofy.localdomain

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Vincent Lefevre]

On 2012-08-08 14:38:44 +0100, Roger Leigh wrote:
> "Normal" users do not need to know or care about these tools.

For some of them, they do. "Normal" users don't need most programs
installed in /usr/bin, so let's split this directory? :)

> Only admins use them, or tools that set things up on behalf of the
> user. Having them in the default path serves no purpose other than a
> minor convenience to a minority of users.

This is also true for most programs in /usr/bin.

> The number of times I've wished e.g. blkid was in my path is...
> zero. Having these immediately accessible to all users isn't
> strictly bad, but may cause confusion and just pollutes the
> namespace for tab completion etc.

Programs in /usr/bin also pollute the namespace for tab completion.

Anyway, if you don't like that, get a better shell. For instance,
some executables could be specifically ignored for tab completion
(possible until you use them for the first time).

Note: there are 3351 files in my /usr/bin, vs 354 for /usr/sbin
and 212 for /sbin, so that adding /usr/sbin and /sbin to $PATH
wouldn't change much. What would need to be improved is the
completion system, based on what the user really uses.

-- 
Vincent Lefèvre  - Web: 
100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: 
Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / AriC project (LIP, ENS-Lyon)


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120808135732.gb25...@xvii.vinc17.org

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Thomas Goirand]

On 08/08/2012 09:11 PM, Vincent Lefevre wrote:
> And ip is not standard (not present on every Linux systems), whereas
> I don't know any system without ifconfig.
>   

Then, what do you use to list multiple IPs on a single interface?
ifconfig simply doesn't support it.

IMHO, if there's distros with ifconfig but not ip, then such distro
doesn't deserve much attention. The standard *is* ip, it's a much
more powerful tool that does all you need (you can't say the same
thing with ifconfig).

> Anyway it's up to the user to choose the commands he wants.
>   

If that was truth, then let's forget about Debian and let's use Windows.

Also, for example, d-i has ip, but not ifconfig, IIRC.

Also, if the user is using the wrong tool, we might want to
teach him the right way.

Also...

So I'm afraid it's not *always* up to the user to choose, for the good or
the worst.

By the way:
echo "alias ifconfig='ip a'" >>.bashrc

problem solved... ;)

Thomas


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/50227141@debian.org

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Thomas Goirand]

On 08/08/2012 09:20 PM, Ulrich Dangel wrote:
> Not all programs in
> the sbin directories require root privileges.
>   

Then they have nothing to do in sbin. I'm serious:
*please file a bug* !!! :)

> It is about providing good defaults for users.
>   

Agreed. Which is why you should file a bug so that
such tool which you miss in bin should be moved
away from sbin. That doesn't mean we should do it
for *all* of the tools.

What would be the point, for example, to have these
accessible to the user:
- depmod/insmod/etc.
- swapon/swapoff
- agetty
- init
- etc.

The point of having sbin *is* to have things away
from the user's path, IMO. If that doesn't fit for some
of the tools you use, then, again, please file a bug
against the relevant packages. But please, don't make
it a general case. That's just wrong.

Otherwise, we should do what Russ is proposing:
merge sbin completely and put everything in bin.
Because what would be the point of sbin then?

Cheers,

Thomas


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/50227317.4000...@debian.org

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Ulrich Dangel]

On 08/08/12 15:38, Roger Leigh wrote:
> The number of times I've wished e.g. blkid was in my path is... zero.

What about iwconfig, ifconfig, route, modinfo, iw, fsck, mkfs.*, fsck, … It is 
not
just about one tool or

There are for examples two symlinks for lsmod to /bin/kmod (/sbin/lsmod and
/bin/lsmod). With sbin in PATH this would not be necessary.

> Having these immediately
> accessible to all users isn't strictly bad, but may cause confusion
> and just pollutes the namespace for tab completion etc.  If you want
> them in your path, it's trivial to add /sbin to it yourself.  I can't
> see any compelling reason to make them the default.

Many things are trivial but I think it would be best to ship good defaults in
Debian. And have all programs available for tab completion without the need to
specify sudo in front is in my opinion a good default.

There is also a question how to discover/find new tools, e.g: ifconfig doesn't
work but sudo ifconfig does. ifco doesn't work etc. This is in my opinion
inconsistent and changing PATH to include the sbin directories would fix that.

It is not like Debian would be the first one, other Distributions like Arch,
Ubuntu and Fedora have added the sbin directories some time ago and it seems to
work without a problem for them.

cheers,
Ulrich



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Vincent Lefevre]

On 2012-08-08 22:01:37 +0800, Thomas Goirand wrote:
> On 08/08/2012 09:11 PM, Vincent Lefevre wrote:
> > And ip is not standard (not present on every Linux systems), whereas
> > I don't know any system without ifconfig.
> 
> Then, what do you use to list multiple IPs on a single interface?
> ifconfig simply doesn't support it.

None of my machines have multiple IPs on a single interface.
So, I guess that for the time being, this isn't much a problem.

> IMHO, if there's distros with ifconfig but not ip, then such distro
> doesn't deserve much attention.

When this is the only distro for the hardware, there isn't much
choice.

-- 
Vincent Lefèvre  - Web: 
100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: 
Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / AriC project (LIP, ENS-Lyon)


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120808142359.gc25...@xvii.vinc17.org

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Arno Töll]

Hi,

On 08.08.2012 16:01, Thomas Goirand wrote:
> IMHO, if there's distros with ifconfig but not ip, then such distro
> doesn't deserve much attention. The standard *is* ip, it's a much
> more powerful tool that does all you need (you can't say the same
> thing with ifconfig).

If you do not use ip, you have no way to assign more than one IP address
to the same interface. Thus, there won't be any feature missing and
sub-interfaces providing the same functionality are supported as I said
earlier today.

Yes, ip is more powerful but with ifconfig, route, vconfig, mii-tool and
arp you have roughly the same functionality ip provides in a very
cryptic user interface.

The standard is *not* ip, the difference is just that iproute2 has a
more active upstream than net-tools. At some point we might be urged to
make a decision, but I don't see much interest to get rid of net-tools
entirely now. Neither outside Debian.

>> Anyway it's up to the user to choose the commands he wants.
> If that was truth, then let's forget about Debian and let's use Windows.

Please keep the discussion on a factual level.

> Also, for example, d-i has ip, but not ifconfig, IIRC.

Roger gave you the rationale earlier today. This is a reasonably new
change.

> Also, if the user is using the wrong tool, we might want to
> teach him the right way.

net-tools is not exactly the "wrong tool"..

> By the way:
> echo "alias ifconfig='ip a'" >>.bashrc

That's not going to work and you know that. I hope you do at least.

-- 
with kind regards,
Arno Töll
IRC: daemonkeeper on Freenode/OFTC
GnuPG Key-ID: 0x9D80F36D



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Darac Marjal]

On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 10:09:27PM +0800, Thomas Goirand wrote:
> On 08/08/2012 09:20 PM, Ulrich Dangel wrote:
> > Not all programs in
> > the sbin directories require root privileges.
> >   
> 
> Then they have nothing to do in sbin. I'm serious:
> *please file a bug* !!! :)

I think you're conflating "system administrators" with root. The FHS
stats that sbin directories are for "maintenance and/or administrative
tasks" Not all of these tasks need root privileges, but then most
(hopefully all) of them should not be necessary to normal users.

Maybe the compromise is to have the sbin directories in the path of
users in the "staff" group.



signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Andrew Shadura]

Hello,

On Wed, 8 Aug 2012 12:40:42 +0100
Roger Leigh  wrote:

> As a distribution we have to decide on a default, and that is ip.
> We took the effort to remove all use of ifconfig from ifupdown and
> other related tools for wheezy precisely to make it removable and
> optional, so that it can eventually be removed.

It's perfectly fine to make it optional so the system doesn't require
it, but complete removal seriously affects usability. Ifconfig is much
more human-oriented, and it's not Linux-only, as some people mentioned
here.

> While it's fine for an end user to continue to use ifconfig, we
> should continue to remove its use by ourselves and in programs in
> Debian.  Warning the user that they are using an obsolete tool is
> IMO entirely justified, particularly when there is a much better
> and more capable replacement.

I don't think any warning is justified. I use ifconfig quite often, and
seeing any warnings is very annoying. It's the same situation as with
idn(1), which used to display information about it's LGPL license every
time you run it, which for me as a user is just on-screen rubbish which
prevents me from receiving the information effectively.

Also, when it becomes an optional package, it's completely user's
choice to install it, so we shall respect it and not to warn anyone.
A kind of warning may be put as the last paragraph of the package
description, however, so users know what they're doing when they
install it.

Ifconfig is perfectly fine for many tasks and I can't seen why it
should be wiped or anything. Same applies to route(8), which produces
more readable output for IPv4 (but not for IPv6). As for netstat(8), I
don't know a better tool.

P.S. There are complaints about net-tools that they use old APIs. Okay,
complainers are free to port them to newer ones, probably adding
support for multiple IPv4 addresses or anything, but please keep the
interface as close as possible to what we have now.

-- 
WBR, Andrew


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Andrej N. Gritsenko]

Hello!

Thomas Goirand has written on Wednesday,  8 August, at 22:01:
>On 08/08/2012 09:11 PM, Vincent Lefevre wrote:
>> And ip is not standard (not present on every Linux systems), whereas
>> I don't know any system without ifconfig.

>Then, what do you use to list multiple IPs on a single interface?
>ifconfig simply doesn't support it.

In fact, I have multiple IPs on a single interface right now on the
machine where I write this letter. And I never used 'ip' before for
configuring it and probably I never will. Have you ever heared of such 
thing as 'interface alias'? It's what I always used on *BSD, Linux, and
other *nix systems. And yes, command 'ifconfig' shows me those IPs too.
So I would say, such very distro-specific tool as 'ip' will never ever
can be called as 'standard' one. I'm sorry.

>IMHO, if there's distros with ifconfig but not ip, then such distro
>doesn't deserve much attention. The standard *is* ip, it's a much
>more powerful tool that does all you need (you can't say the same
>thing with ifconfig).

You mean MacOS-X, *BSD, Solaris, etc. are all dead and breaking the
standards? You've made me laugh. :)

Cheers!
Andriy.


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120808145657.ga7...@rep.kiev.ua

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Michael Stummvoll]

> ifconfig eth0 192.168.0.1 up
> ifconfig eth0:0 192.168.0.2 up
> ifconfig
> 
> It does not list addresses you added with ip without adding a
> sub-interface, however. With respect to visibility, one might wonder
> if doing that that is a good idea after all.
> 

There are serval ways:
- Some users prefer subinterfaces
- Some users prefer interfaces with multiple adresses
- Some users prefer bridge-interfaces

TIMTOWTDI ;)

Kind Reagards,
Michael


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Ben Hutchings]

On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 04:26:54PM +0200, Arno Töll wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On 08.08.2012 16:01, Thomas Goirand wrote:
> > IMHO, if there's distros with ifconfig but not ip, then such distro
> > doesn't deserve much attention. The standard *is* ip, it's a much
> > more powerful tool that does all you need (you can't say the same
> > thing with ifconfig).
> 
> If you do not use ip, you have no way to assign more than one IP address
> to the same interface.

Probably not, but these are not the only programs that might be used
to assign an IP address.

> Thus, there won't be any feature missing and
> sub-interfaces providing the same functionality are supported as I said
> earlier today.
>
> Yes, ip is more powerful but with ifconfig, route, vconfig, mii-tool and
> arp you have roughly the same functionality ip provides in a very
> cryptic user interface.

ethtool is the more general substitute for mii-tool.  mii-tool can
show you more information about MDIO (clause 22) PHYs, but many
Ethernet interfaces do not have these.

> The standard is *not* ip, the difference is just that iproute2 has a
> more active upstream than net-tools. At some point we might be urged to
> make a decision, but I don't see much interest to get rid of net-tools
> entirely now. Neither outside Debian.
[...]

net-tools last released in 2001.  It's barely kept alive by Debian
and Gentoo maintainers, so far as I can see.

Anyway, I thought the argument is that net-tools should be deprecated
and reduced in priority, not that it must be removed altogether.

Ben.

-- 
Ben Hutchings
We get into the habit of living before acquiring the habit of thinking.
  - Albert Camus


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120808152213.gn1...@decadent.org.uk

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Ben Hutchings]

On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 05:56:57PM +0300, Andrej N. Gritsenko wrote:
> Hello!
> 
> Thomas Goirand has written on Wednesday,  8 August, at 22:01:
> >On 08/08/2012 09:11 PM, Vincent Lefevre wrote:
> >> And ip is not standard (not present on every Linux systems), whereas
> >> I don't know any system without ifconfig.
> 
> >Then, what do you use to list multiple IPs on a single interface?
> >ifconfig simply doesn't support it.
> 
> In fact, I have multiple IPs on a single interface right now on the
> machine where I write this letter. And I never used 'ip' before for
> configuring it and probably I never will. Have you ever heared of such 
> thing as 'interface alias'?

Yes, it's a horrible hack.

> It's what I always used on *BSD, Linux, and
> other *nix systems. And yes, command 'ifconfig' shows me those IPs too.
> So I would say, such very distro-specific tool as 'ip' will never ever
> can be called as 'standard' one. I'm sorry.
 
It is Linux-specific, not distro-specific.

> >IMHO, if there's distros with ifconfig but not ip, then such distro
> >doesn't deserve much attention. The standard *is* ip, it's a much
> >more powerful tool that does all you need (you can't say the same
> >thing with ifconfig).
> 
> You mean MacOS-X, *BSD, Solaris, etc. are all dead and breaking the
> standards? You've made me laugh. :)
 
ifconfig was not specified in any standard.  If you ever actually
tried to script address configuration on multiple platforms (I did, I
used to work on network test automation) you'll find that there is
actually almost no portability.

Ben.

-- 
Ben Hutchings
We get into the habit of living before acquiring the habit of thinking.
  - Albert Camus


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120808152457.go1...@decadent.org.uk

Re: node-like file conflicts

[Jakub Wilk]

* Dmitrijs Ledkovs , 2012-08-07, 22:47:

Does this include search across all components of standard $PATH


Yes, modulo bugs (see my other message in this thread).


and across all packages?


Yes, on i386 and amd64. If you check kfreebsd-* there's also this one:

ztest: zfsutils zutils

There might be even more if you assume that you can co-install Linux and 
kFreeBSD binaries (yay, multi-arch world!).



How did you run this check?


I used a script (attached) to analyse Contents-*.gz files, which you can 
find on your favourite mirror. Then I manually filtered some 
false-positives.


--
Jakub Wilk
#!/usr/bin/python3

# Copyright © 2012 Jakub Wilk 

# Redistribution and use in source and compiled forms, with or without
# modification, are permitted under any circumstances. No warranty.

import argparse
import collections
import functools
import gzip
import re

interesting = 
re.compile(br'^((?:usr/)?s?bin/|usr/games/)([^/\s]+)\s+(\S+)').match

def main():
ap = argparse.ArgumentParser()
ap.add_argument('files', metavar='FILE', nargs='+')
options = ap.parse_args()
data = collections.defaultdict(
lambda: collections.defaultdict(set)
)
for filename in options.files:
if filename.endswith('.gz'):
file = gzip.open(filename)
else:
file = open(filename, 'rb')
with file:
for line in file:
if line.startswith(b'FILE'):
break
for line in file:
match = interesting(line)
if match is not None:
path, command, packages = (s.decode('UTF-8') for s in 
match.groups())
packages = set(p.split('/')[-1] for p in 
packages.split(','))
data[command][path] |= packages
for command, paths in data.items():
if len(paths) > 1:
packages = functools.reduce(set.union, paths.values(), set())
if len(packages) > 1:
print('{command}: {packages}'.format(
command=command,
packages=' '.join(sorted(packages))
))

if __name__ == '__main__':
main()

# vim:ts=4 sw=4 et

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Russ Allbery]

Lars Wirzenius  writes:
> On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 09:02:13AM +0200, Christian PERRIER wrote:

>> Isn't there something called FHS and which would be the thing to change
>> first? Or aren't we sticking to the FHS anyway or just don't care?

> If we keep /sbin as a symlink to /bin, and similarly for the other sbin
> directories, we're still compatible with the FHS.

Also, FHS development seems to be effectively dead.  We're already
carrying a fairly large collection of exceptions.  One more wouldn't make
a tremendous difference as long as there's no major user behavior change,
and the symlinks would take care of that.

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)   


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87ipctwdu8@windlord.stanford.edu

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Russ Allbery]

Alberto Fuentes  writes:

> I think the topic in here is good defaults for debian/"more common case"
> no if debian/users are able to handle such changes. :)

> I also add sbin to path as one the first steps after installation and i
> think is a good thing.

Yes, likewise here.  I've had sbin in my path for 15 years.  Every UNIX
I've used had similar problems where binaries were in sbin for no
particularly good reason.

Yes, we could file bugs and go to the work of moving things and leaving
symlinks behind to not break other things, but that's a lot of work.  And
it's ongoing work to keep things sorted into the right place.  Whereas if
we moved everything and left a symlink behind, that's way more work in the
short run but then we would be done and no one would have to think about
the distinction again.

I've never seen a system that really gets this right, where I didn't
occasionally want to run stuff in sbin as a regular user, so I'm skeptical
that it's possible to do a good job at this.

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)   


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87ehnhwdpo@windlord.stanford.edu

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Andrej N. Gritsenko]

Hello!

Ben Hutchings has written on Wednesday,  8 August, at 16:24:
>> >On 08/08/2012 09:11 PM, Vincent Lefevre wrote:

>> >IMHO, if there's distros with ifconfig but not ip, then such distro
>> >doesn't deserve much attention. The standard *is* ip, it's a much
>> >more powerful tool that does all you need (you can't say the same
>> >thing with ifconfig).

>> You mean MacOS-X, *BSD, Solaris, etc. are all dead and breaking the
>> standards? You've made me laugh. :)

>ifconfig was not specified in any standard.  If you ever actually
>tried to script address configuration on multiple platforms (I did, I
>used to work on network test automation) you'll find that there is
>actually almost no portability.

Yes, I know that. But if you read again what I said - I haven't said
ifconfig is standard but I said ip is much more far from being standard
than ifconfig is so ifconfig should stay alive yet.

Cheers!
Andriy.


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120808162958.gc7...@rep.kiev.ua

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Russ Allbery]

Thorsten Glaser  writes:

> There’s also the “if I want to have a look at what commands on the
> system are used for administering, I can just ls /sbin /usr/sbin”
> thing.

Have you done this recently?

I seriously doubt anyone is going to read through those 416 programs (on
my system; counts will vary), most of which are not, in fact, at all
useful for administering the system.

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)   


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/877gt9wdil@windlord.stanford.edu

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Ben Hutchings]

On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 07:29:58PM +0300, Andrej N. Gritsenko wrote:
> Hello!
> 
> Ben Hutchings has written on Wednesday,  8 August, at 16:24:
> >> >On 08/08/2012 09:11 PM, Vincent Lefevre wrote:
> 
> >> >IMHO, if there's distros with ifconfig but not ip, then such distro
> >> >doesn't deserve much attention. The standard *is* ip, it's a much
> >> >more powerful tool that does all you need (you can't say the same
> >> >thing with ifconfig).
> 
> >> You mean MacOS-X, *BSD, Solaris, etc. are all dead and breaking the
> >> standards? You've made me laugh. :)
> 
> >ifconfig was not specified in any standard.  If you ever actually
> >tried to script address configuration on multiple platforms (I did, I
> >used to work on network test automation) you'll find that there is
> >actually almost no portability.
> 
> Yes, I know that. But if you read again what I said - I haven't said
> ifconfig is standard but I said ip is much more far from being standard
> than ifconfig is so ifconfig should stay alive yet.
 
ip is the Linux standard.  networksetup is the OS X standard.  All
other Unixes are ~irrelevant.

Ben.

-- 
Ben Hutchings
We get into the habit of living before acquiring the habit of thinking.
  - Albert Camus


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120808164231.gp1...@decadent.org.uk

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Roger Leigh]

On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 09:28:03AM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
> Yes, we could file bugs and go to the work of moving things and leaving
> symlinks behind to not break other things, but that's a lot of work.  And
> it's ongoing work to keep things sorted into the right place.  Whereas if
> we moved everything and left a symlink behind, that's way more work in the
> short run but then we would be done and no one would have to think about
> the distinction again.

If we did want to do a blanket move of everything in /sbin to /bin
(and for /usr/sbin to /usr/bin), we could do this in a single operation
in e.g. base-files.  It wouldn't require any path changes in individual
packages, but we would need to fix any name clashes first, and also to
bail out if any were found during the upgrade.  It should be possible to
do entirely atomically as well if we hardlink the binaries, and then
replace the dir with a symlink.


Regards,
Roger

-- 
  .''`.  Roger Leigh
 : :' :  Debian GNU/Linuxhttp://people.debian.org/~rleigh/
 `. `'   schroot and sbuild  http://alioth.debian.org/projects/buildd-tools
   `-GPG Public Key  F33D 281D 470A B443 6756 147C 07B3 C8BC 4083 E800


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120808164835.ga25...@codelibre.net

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Lars Wirzenius]

On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 09:25:19AM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
> Also, FHS development seems to be effectively dead.  We're already
> carrying a fairly large collection of exceptions.  One more wouldn't make
> a tremendous difference as long as there's no major user behavior change,
> and the symlinks would take care of that.

There may be hope of an FHS revival: 
http://www.linuxfoundation.org/collaborate/workgroups/lsb/fhs

I haven't followed if they're actually doing any work.

-- 
I wrote a book: http://gtdfh.branchable.com/


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Russ Allbery]

Lars Wirzenius  writes:
> On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 09:25:19AM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:

>> Also, FHS development seems to be effectively dead.  We're already
>> carrying a fairly large collection of exceptions.  One more wouldn't
>> make a tremendous difference as long as there's no major user behavior
>> change, and the symlinks would take care of that.

> There may be hope of an FHS revival: 
> http://www.linuxfoundation.org/collaborate/workgroups/lsb/fhs

> I haven't followed if they're actually doing any work.

I've been on the mailing list, and so far it's mostly been crickets.  The
person who was driving the effort has been busy with other LSB work.

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)   


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87obmluwn8@windlord.stanford.edu

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Harald Jenny]

On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 12:22:50PM +0200, Marco d'Itri wrote:
> (Does anybody want to try removing net-tools and see what breaks?)

On my debian systems net-tools are removed, had to recompile openvpn
with ip support and run openswan from experimental without any problems
since 4 months.

Kind regards
Harald Jenny


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: 
http://lists.debian.org/20120808170856.gc3...@harald-has.a-little-linux-box.at

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Vincent Bernat]

 ❦  8 août 2012 09:15 CEST, Michael Stummvoll  :

>> Moving ifconfig to /bin would break a lot of things calling
>> `/sbin/ifconfig`.
>
> there could be a link for compatiblity

If we start symlinking, a symlink from /sbin to /bin seems easier. Once
we start a breach, we'll get more and more requests. For example, I
would see:
 - brctl
 - ethtool
 - ifconfig
 - route
 - sysctl

Looking at /sbin for those, I also discover there are already a lot of
symlinks. On my system, on 216 files, I have 80 symlinks.
-- 
Let the machine do the dirty work.
- The Elements of Programming Style (Kernighan & Plauger)


pgp0eX9Yn6ThQ.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Vincent Bernat]

 ❦  8 août 2012 09:43 CEST, Bernd Zeimetz  :

>> Currently the default PATH for Debian does not include /sbin, /usr/sbin, nor
>> /usr/local/sbin. If an user wants to run a program in either /sbin/ or 
>> /usr/sbin
>> the full path must be specified.
>>
>
> Or the user just adds those directories to $PATH in $SHELLrc/profile/
>
> Experienced users should be able to do this easily. And those who don't
> knwo what to do with the tools in */sbin/* probably don't want/need them
> in $PATH.

Unexperencied users are those that will have hard time to understand why
"ifconfig" returns "command not found".
-- 
printk("HPFS: G... Kernel memory corrupted ... going on, but 
it'll crash very soon :-(\n");
2.4.3 linux/fs/hpfs/super.c


pgpd2ZyS72zja.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Vincent Bernat]

 ❦  8 août 2012 16:56 CEST, "Andrej N. Gritsenko"  :

>>Then, what do you use to list multiple IPs on a single interface?
>>ifconfig simply doesn't support it.
>
> In fact, I have multiple IPs on a single interface right now on the
> machine where I write this letter. And I never used 'ip' before for
> configuring it and probably I never will. Have you ever heared of such 
> thing as 'interface alias'? It's what I always used on *BSD, Linux, and
> other *nix systems. And yes, command 'ifconfig' shows me those IPs too.
> So I would say, such very distro-specific tool as 'ip' will never ever
> can be called as 'standard' one. I'm sorry.

Many tools will not use interface aliases. On the top of my head,
automatic IPv6 configuration, DHCP clients and routing daemons. However,
interface aliases are also useful for ifupdown.
-- 
HARDFAIL("Not enough magic.");
2.4.0-test2 /usr/src/linux/drivers/block/nbd.c


pgp6Z7GXddKVC.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Vincent Bernat]

 ❦  8 août 2012 12:21 CEST, David Given  :

> ifconfig (before this discussion I'd never even *heard* of ip)

All what is inside "net-tools" package is old and hardly maintained.

"arp" can be replaced by "ip neigh", "ifconfig" by "ip addr" or "ip link", 
"route" by
"ip route", "ipmaddr" by "ip maddr", "mii-tool" by "ethtool", "netstat"
by "ss", "nameif" by "ip link", "iptunnel" by "ip tunnel". "iproute" and
"ethtool" packages are kept in sync with kernels and allow the user to
use the latest features.
-- 
Replace repetitive expressions by calls to a common function.
- The Elements of Programming Style (Kernighan & Plauger)


pgpjCi9fmS03C.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Andrew Shadura]

Hello,

On Wed, 08 Aug 2012 19:44:25 +0200
Vincent Bernat  wrote:

> "arp" can be replaced by "ip neigh", "ifconfig" by "ip addr" or "ip
> link", "route" by "ip route", "ipmaddr" by "ip maddr", "mii-tool" by
> "ethtool", "netstat" by "ss", "nameif" by "ip link", "iptunnel" by
> "ip tunnel". "iproute" and "ethtool" packages are kept in sync with
> kernels and allow the user to use the latest features.

...And completely lack full documentation on all of them, yeah?

-- 
WBR, Andrew


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Thomas Goirand]

On 08/08/2012 10:10 PM, Ulrich Dangel wrote:
> Many things are trivial but I think it would be best to ship good defaults in
> Debian. And have all programs available for tab completion without the need to
> specify sudo in front is in my opinion a good default.
>
> There is also a question how to discover/find new tools, e.g: ifconfig doesn't
> work but sudo ifconfig does. ifco doesn't work etc. This is in my opinion
> inconsistent and changing PATH to include the sbin directories would fix that.
>
> It is not like Debian would be the first one, other Distributions like Arch,
> Ubuntu and Fedora have added the sbin directories some time ago and it seems 
> to
> work without a problem for them.
>
> cheers,
> Ulrich
>   
Here, you are mixing multiple problems into a single one.

- shell auto completion
- location of binaries
- PATH environment variable
- sudo usage
- the fact that ifconfig isn't in a user's path

By the way, ifconfig doesn't implement all the features that
Linux offers, which makes it the wrong tool to learn / use. If
you aren't convince, see #222676 (reported in 2003),
#525012, #119616 (reported in 2001), #324306, etc.

Then, I came across #312669 ! Astonishing. It's been since
2005 that absolutely most of the issues of this thread have been
discussed already.

I don't think all this is reasonable. If the main issue is finding
ifconfig with auto completion, then #312669 should be fixed.
It seems that there's a near consensus that it's annoying (well,
I'm ok with using "ip a" like H01lger, but it seems there's some
other hold school guys that don't want to learn new stuff...).

So, is there *anyone* that would not agree with moving ifconfig
in /bin (or at least a symlink to it)? Shouldn't we address bugs
that are 7 years old and annoying a lot of people? :)

Cheers,

Thomas


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/5022abab.1070...@debian.org

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Vincent Bernat]

 ❦  8 août 2012 19:54 CEST, Andrew Shadura  :

>> "arp" can be replaced by "ip neigh", "ifconfig" by "ip addr" or "ip
>> link", "route" by "ip route", "ipmaddr" by "ip maddr", "mii-tool" by
>> "ethtool", "netstat" by "ss", "nameif" by "ip link", "iptunnel" by
>> "ip tunnel". "iproute" and "ethtool" packages are kept in sync with
>> kernels and allow the user to use the latest features.
>
> ...And completely lack full documentation on all of them, yeah?

You have ip(8), ip-addr(8), ip-link(8), ip-neighbour(8), etc. They seem
fairly up-to-date. It is a recent effort. They are not present in
Squeeze for example.
-- 
panic ("No CPUs found.  System halted.\n");
2.4.3 linux/arch/parisc/kernel/setup.c


pgp159aCeeo76.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Ben Hutchings]

On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 07:54:59PM +0200, Andrew Shadura wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> On Wed, 08 Aug 2012 19:44:25 +0200
> Vincent Bernat  wrote:
> 
> > "arp" can be replaced by "ip neigh", "ifconfig" by "ip addr" or "ip
> > link", "route" by "ip route", "ipmaddr" by "ip maddr", "mii-tool" by
> > "ethtool", "netstat" by "ss", "nameif" by "ip link", "iptunnel" by
> > "ip tunnel". "iproute" and "ethtool" packages are kept in sync with
> > kernels and allow the user to use the latest features.
> 
> ...And completely lack full documentation on all of them, yeah?

I believe all ethtool features are documented, and as the upstream
maintainer I insist on documentation for all new features.

iproute2 documentation was somewhat lacking, but as Vincent says it
has been improved a lot recently.

Ben.

-- 
Ben Hutchings
We get into the habit of living before acquiring the habit of thinking.
  - Albert Camus


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120808184810.gq1...@decadent.org.uk

Re: node-like file conflicts

[Arno Töll]

Hi,

On 08.08.2012 17:53, Jakub Wilk wrote:
> ztest: zfsutils zutils

Hum, thanks for spotting that, but what to do here? Both packages
legitimately ship a ztest. Admittedly it is not very important for
zfsutils, don't know about zutils. Having that said, lots of upstream
tutorials and documentation refers to a ZFS "ztest" tool.

> There might be even more if you assume that you can co-install Linux and
> kFreeBSD binaries (yay, multi-arch world!).

They might be co-installable but not executable (for the time being).
The Linux emulation layer which is featured by kFreeBSD only runs in a
chroot for now.

-- 
with kind regards,
Arno Töll
IRC: daemonkeeper on Freenode/OFTC
GnuPG Key-ID: 0x9D80F36D



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Philipp Kern]

On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 07:54:59PM +0200, Andrew Shadura wrote:
> On Wed, 08 Aug 2012 19:44:25 +0200
> Vincent Bernat  wrote:
> > "arp" can be replaced by "ip neigh", "ifconfig" by "ip addr" or "ip
> > link", "route" by "ip route", "ipmaddr" by "ip maddr", "mii-tool" by
> > "ethtool", "netstat" by "ss", "nameif" by "ip link", "iptunnel" by
> > "ip tunnel". "iproute" and "ethtool" packages are kept in sync with
> > kernels and allow the user to use the latest features.
> ...And completely lack full documentation on all of them, yeah?

Hm? There are manual pages[1]. Also ip is able to support IPv6 with the same
syntax (like arp → neigh for both) by just passing "-6".

Kind regards
Philipp Kern

[1] ip(8), ip-address(8), ip-addrlabel(8), ip-l2tp(8), ip-link(8),
ip-maddress(8), ip-monitor(8), ip-mroute(8), ip-neighbour(8),
ip-netns(8), ip-ntable(8), ip-route(8), ip-rule(8), ip-tunnel(8),
ip-xfrm(8)


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Milan P. Stanic]

On Wed, 2012-08-08 at 19:08, Harald Jenny wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 12:22:50PM +0200, Marco d'Itri wrote:
> > (Does anybody want to try removing net-tools and see what breaks?)
> On my debian systems net-tools are removed, had to recompile openvpn
> with ip support and run openswan from experimental without any problems
> since 4 months.

I removed it without recompiling anything from my notebook.

-- 
Kind regards,  Milan


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120808200824.ga16...@arvanta.net

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Martin Bagge / brother]

On Wed, 8 Aug 2012, Andrew Shadura wrote:

On Wed, 08 Aug 2012 19:44:25 +0200
Vincent Bernat  wrote:


"arp" can be replaced by "ip neigh", "ifconfig" by "ip addr" or "ip
link", "route" by "ip route", "ipmaddr" by "ip maddr", "mii-tool" by
"ethtool", "netstat" by "ss", "nameif" by "ip link", "iptunnel" by
"ip tunnel". "iproute" and "ethtool" packages are kept in sync with
kernels and allow the user to use the latest features.


...And completely lack full documentation on all of them, yeah?


searching for info about ip on a webcrawler is not very pleasant I have 
learned =)


--
/brother
http://martin.bagge.nu
Bruce Schneier's name appeared in EBCDIC in the output of /dev/random every 
time there was a full moon.  Even after they changed the RNG algorithm.


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: 
http://lists.debian.org/alpine.deb.2.00.1208082216590.14...@salyut.bsnet.se

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Harald Jenny]

On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 10:08:24PM +0200, Milan P. Stanic wrote:
> On Wed, 2012-08-08 at 19:08, Harald Jenny wrote:
> > On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 12:22:50PM +0200, Marco d'Itri wrote:
> > > (Does anybody want to try removing net-tools and see what breaks?)
> > On my debian systems net-tools are removed, had to recompile openvpn
> > with ip support and run openswan from experimental without any problems
> > since 4 months.
> 
> I removed it without recompiling anything from my notebook.

openvpn still uses the route command from net-tools and in openswan's
KLIPS helper there was an occurence of the netstat command.

> 
> -- 
> Kind regards,  Milan

Kind regards
Harald

> 
> 
> -- 
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
> with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
> Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120808200824.ga16...@arvanta.net


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: 
http://lists.debian.org/20120808201815.ga23...@harald-has.a-little-linux-box.at

Re: node-like file conflicts

[Jarek Kamiński]

Na grupie linux.debian.devel napisałe(a)ś:
>> There might be even more if you assume that you can co-install Linux an=
> d
>> kFreeBSD binaries (yay, multi-arch world!).

> They might be co-installable but not executable (for the time being).
> The Linux emulation layer which is featured by kFreeBSD only runs in a
> chroot for now.

Hmm... When I was playing some time ago with multiarch on kFreeBSD it
worked without chroot. It wasn't working flawlessly, if I remember
correctly I had to bump Linux kernel version returned by kFreeBSD (some
sysctl), as it was below glibc minimum.

There were also some problems with dynamic linker, that I wanted to
debug and report to BTS, but never managed to. When both i386 and
kfreebsd-i386 versions of library were installed, ld.so tried
kfreebsd-i386 even for Linux binaries, or something like that. I think
the problem didn't occur with kfreebsd-amd64 (and Linux i386) and could
be worked around on kfreebsd-i386 by setting LD_LIBRARY_PATH to
/usr/lib/i486-linux-gnu/ or something like that.

I may not remember everything exactly, but I definitely ran some Linux
binaries od kFreeBSD using multiarch without chroot ;-)


-- 
pozdr(); // Jarek


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120808202115.ga14...@vilo.eu.org

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Steve Langasek]

On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 10:22:03AM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
> Lars Wirzenius  writes:
> > On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 09:25:19AM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:

> >> Also, FHS development seems to be effectively dead.  We're already
> >> carrying a fairly large collection of exceptions.  One more wouldn't
> >> make a tremendous difference as long as there's no major user behavior
> >> change, and the symlinks would take care of that.

> > There may be hope of an FHS revival: 
> > http://www.linuxfoundation.org/collaborate/workgroups/lsb/fhs

> > I haven't followed if they're actually doing any work.

> I've been on the mailing list, and so far it's mostly been crickets.  The
> person who was driving the effort has been busy with other LSB work.

While that's true, there is now a framework for getting changes made to the
FHS again - unlike before when the only three editors with commit access
were all AWOL.  The FHS and the guarantees it provides about what users can
expect from their system is still important.  If Debian thinks we need to
diverge from the FHS on something as major as the existence of /sbin, that's
a conversation we should be having in the FHS WG first before implementing
it.

-- 
Steve Langasek   Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer   to set it on, and I can move the world.
Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/
slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Vincent Lefevre]

On 2012-08-08 22:09:27 +0800, Thomas Goirand wrote:
> What would be the point, for example, to have these
> accessible to the user:
> - depmod/insmod/etc.
> - swapon/swapoff
> - agetty
> - init
> - etc.

One (perhaps minor) point would be to get basic documentation, e.g.

  depmod --help

There is no need to be root to read the documentation.

-- 
Vincent Lefèvre  - Web: 
100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: 
Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / AriC project (LIP, ENS-Lyon)


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120808210652.gd25...@xvii.vinc17.org

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Milan P. Stanic]

On Wed, 2012-08-08 at 22:18, Harald Jenny wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 10:08:24PM +0200, Milan P. Stanic wrote:
> > On Wed, 2012-08-08 at 19:08, Harald Jenny wrote:
> > > On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 12:22:50PM +0200, Marco d'Itri wrote:
> > > > (Does anybody want to try removing net-tools and see what breaks?)
> > > On my debian systems net-tools are removed, had to recompile openvpn
> > > with ip support and run openswan from experimental without any problems
> > > since 4 months.
> > I removed it without recompiling anything from my notebook.
> openvpn still uses the route command from net-tools and in openswan's

I forgot to tell that I don't use openvpn.

> KLIPS helper there was an occurence of the netstat command.

For IPsec I use racoon and ipsec-tools. For wireless I use wicd.

So everything I need for networks on my notebook works without
net-tools.

-- 
Kind regards,  Milan


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120808210846.ga18...@arvanta.net

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Steve Langasek]

On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 05:48:35PM +0100, Roger Leigh wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 09:28:03AM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
> > Yes, we could file bugs and go to the work of moving things and leaving
> > symlinks behind to not break other things, but that's a lot of work.  And
> > it's ongoing work to keep things sorted into the right place.  Whereas if
> > we moved everything and left a symlink behind, that's way more work in the
> > short run but then we would be done and no one would have to think about
> > the distinction again.

> If we did want to do a blanket move of everything in /sbin to /bin
> (and for /usr/sbin to /usr/bin), we could do this in a single operation
> in e.g. base-files.  It wouldn't require any path changes in individual
> packages, but we would need to fix any name clashes first, and also to
> bail out if any were found during the upgrade.  It should be possible to
> do entirely atomically as well if we hardlink the binaries, and then
> replace the dir with a symlink.

You can't replace a directory with a symlink atomically.  So this is
near-atomic, not atomic.

More importantly, however, is the fact that dpkg won't know anything about
this change, so will be unable to detect file conflicts between /usr/bin and
/usr/sbin.  And we know we definitely *do* have such file conflicts in the
archive (see "node-like file conflicts").  Thus we could not guarantee the
integrity of the user's system when making such a change.

I don't see any gain from merging bin+sbin that justifies such pain.  Adding
sbin to the default PATH would be far simpler.

-- 
Steve Langasek   Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer   to set it on, and I can move the world.
Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/
slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Steve Langasek]

On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 01:53:24PM -0700, Steve Langasek wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 10:22:03AM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
> > Lars Wirzenius  writes:
> > > On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 09:25:19AM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:

> > >> Also, FHS development seems to be effectively dead.  We're already
> > >> carrying a fairly large collection of exceptions.  One more wouldn't
> > >> make a tremendous difference as long as there's no major user behavior
> > >> change, and the symlinks would take care of that.

> > > There may be hope of an FHS revival: 
> > > http://www.linuxfoundation.org/collaborate/workgroups/lsb/fhs

> > > I haven't followed if they're actually doing any work.

> > I've been on the mailing list, and so far it's mostly been crickets.  The
> > person who was driving the effort has been busy with other LSB work.

> While that's true, there is now a framework for getting changes made to the
> FHS again - unlike before when the only three editors with commit access
> were all AWOL.  The FHS and the guarantees it provides about what users can
> expect from their system is still important.  If Debian thinks we need to
> diverge from the FHS on something as major as the existence of /sbin, that's
> a conversation we should be having in the FHS WG first before implementing
> it.

As an aside, I've learned by way of said mailing list that Fedora took it
upon themselves to deviate from the FHS by eliminating /usr/games, which is
a terrible thing because it now means insecure game software, much of it
sgid, is on root's path when it shouldn't be. :-P  I think that's a great
example of why distros shouldn't diverge from the FHS in isolation now that
there is a functional forum for discussing changes.

-- 
Steve Langasek   Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer   to set it on, and I can move the world.
Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/
slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: node-like file conflicts

[Ben Hutchings]

On Wed, 2012-08-08 at 22:21 +0200, Jarek Kamiński wrote:
> Na grupie linux.debian.devel napisałe(a)ś:
> >> There might be even more if you assume that you can co-install Linux an=
> > d
> >> kFreeBSD binaries (yay, multi-arch world!).
> 
> > They might be co-installable but not executable (for the time being).
> > The Linux emulation layer which is featured by kFreeBSD only runs in a
> > chroot for now.
> 
> Hmm... When I was playing some time ago with multiarch on kFreeBSD it
> worked without chroot. It wasn't working flawlessly, if I remember
> correctly I had to bump Linux kernel version returned by kFreeBSD (some
> sysctl), as it was below glibc minimum.
[...]

There is also no support for Linux amd64 executables on kfreebsd-amd64,
as I understand it.

Ben.

-- 
Ben Hutchings
Theory and practice are closer in theory than in practice.
- John Levine, moderator of comp.compilers


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part

Bug#684347: ITP: system-storage-manager -- system storage management tool

[Ritesh Raj Sarraf]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Ritesh Raj Sarraf 

* Package name: system-storage-manager
  Version : 0.2
  Upstream Author : Lukas Czerner 
* URL : https://sourceforge.net/p/storagemanager/home/
* License : GPL-2+
  Programming Lang: Python
  Description : system storage management tool

 System Storage Manager provides an easy to use command line interface to
 manage your storage using various technologies like lvm, btrfs, encrypted
 volumes and more.
 .
 In more sophisticated enterprise storage environments, management with
 Device Mapper (dm), Logical Volume Manager (LVM), or Multiple Devices (md)
 is becoming increasingly more difficult.  With file systems added to the mix,
 the number of tools needed to configure and manage storage has grown so large
 that it is simply not user friendly.  With so many options for a system
 administrator to consider, the opportunity for errors and problems is large.
 .
 The btrfs administration tools have shown us that storage management can
 be simplified, and we are working to bring that ease of use to Linux file
 systems in general.
 .
 You should install the ssm if you need to manage your storage with various
 technologies via a single unified interface.


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: 
http://lists.debian.org/20120808223734.20011.88997.report...@champaran.researchut.com

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Roger Lynn]

On 08/08/12 12:30, Thomas Goirand wrote:
> On 08/08/2012 06:21 PM, David Given wrote:
>> ifconfig (before this discussion I'd never even *heard* of ip)
>>   
> This kind of remark make be say that probably, it'd be
> nice to have ifconfig display a warning as this one:
> 
> "ifconfig is deprecated, please use ip instead"

That might be helpful if and only if it gave the syntax of the equivalent ip
command.

Roger


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/057bf9-qv3@silverstone.rilynn.me.uk

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Charles Plessy]

Le Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 09:28:03AM -0700, Russ Allbery a écrit :
> 
> Yes, we could file bugs and go to the work of moving things and leaving
> symlinks behind to not break other things, but that's a lot of work.  And
> it's ongoing work to keep things sorted into the right place.  Whereas if
> we moved everything and left a symlink behind, that's way more work in the
> short run but then we would be done and no one would have to think about
> the distinction again.

Hello everybody,

perhaps a DEP could be useful to track that proposition ?  (same for
the proposition to symlink /bin and /sbin to /usr/bin and /usr/sbin.)

  http://dep.debian.net/

Have a nice day,

-- 
Charles Plessy
Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120808233918.gc23...@falafel.plessy.net

Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1

[Andreas Tille]

On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 01:53:24PM -0700, Steve Langasek wrote:
> The FHS and the guarantees it provides about what users can
> expect from their system is still important.  If Debian thinks we need to
> diverge from the FHS on something as major as the existence of /sbin, that's
> a conversation we should be having in the FHS WG first before implementing
> it.

+1

Andreas.

-- 
http://fam-tille.de


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120809063228.ga32...@an3as.eu