Re: Bug severity and release-critical status (was: Bug#509732: Debian policy doesn't feature RC bugs)

[Don Armstrong]

On Sat, 27 Dec 2008, Ben Finney wrote:
> So, it's not correct for anyone but a release manager to decide
> “this bug is/is not release-critical, so I'll change the severity”;
> that is a perversion of the meaning of the severity field.

That's not quite true. See below.

> You can argue about whether a bug fits the definition of a specific
> severity level, and change the severity field value on that basis;
> but whether the bug “is release-critical” has no place in that
> argument.

The only distinction that has importance for release criticality is
the important <-> serious division; anyone can try to adjust the
severity to follow the guidelines of the release team, but the release
team make the final decision. Likewise, anyone can try to adjust the
severities outside of this division, but the maintainer(s) make the
final decision.


Don Armstrong

-- 
Frankly, if ignoring inane opinions and noisy people and not flaming
them to crisp is bad behaviour, I have not yet achieved a state of
nirvana.
 -- Manoj Srivastava in 87n04pzhmh@glaurung.internal.golden-gryphon.com

http://www.donarmstrong.com  http://rzlab.ucr.edu


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Bug#509871: ITP: coinor-cgl -- Cut Generator Library, a library of cutting-plane generators

[Soeren Sonnenburg]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Soeren Sonnenburg 

* Package name: coinor-cgl
  Version : 0.53.1
  Upstream Author : Robin Lougee-Heimer  and Francois 
Margot 
* URL : http://www.coin-or.org/projects/Cgl.xml
* License : CPL
  Programming Lang: C++
  Description : Cut Generator Library, a library of cutting-plane generators

The Cut Generation Library (Cgl) is an open collection of
cutting plane implementations ("cut generators") for use in teaching,
research, and applications.

Cgl is part of the larger COIN-OR initiative (Computational
Infrastructure for Operations Research) and can be used with other
COIN-OR packages that make use of cuts, such as the mixed-integer linear
programming solver Cbc.

-- System Information:
Debian Release: 5.0
  APT prefers stable
  APT policy: (700, 'stable'), (650, 'testing'), (600, 'unstable'), (1, 
'experimental')
Architecture: i386 (i686)



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Re: Bug#509685: ITP: hardlink -- Hardlink multiple copies of the same file

[Joerg Jaspert]

>> We already have these packages:
>>   fdupes
>>   perforate
> AFAIK, they do not replace files, they just find them.

Wrong, fdupe from perforate does link them together if one wants to.

> Imagine you have two backups, each on a different filesystem. Now you
> want to have them both on one filesystem. In this situation, you can use
> hardlink to link all common files in the backups together.

Or you just use rsync with --link-dest and don't need a second tool for
it at all.

-- 
bye, Joerg
"That's just f***ing great, now the bar for being a cool guy in free
software just got raised. It used to be you just had to write a million
lines of useful code. Now you've got to get a subpoena from SCO to be cool."


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Re: Bug severity and release-critical status

[Ben Finney]

Russ Allbery  writes:

> Ben Finney  writes:
> 
> > So, it's not correct for anyone but a release manager to decide
> > “this bug is/is not release-critical, so I'll change the
> > severity”; that is a perversion of the meaning of the severity
> > field. You can argue about whether a bug fits the definition of a
> > specific severity level, and change the severity field value on
> > that basis; but whether the bug “is release-critical” has no
> > place in that argument.
> 
> I guess I can kind of see what you're driving at. But on the other
> hand, we shouldn't put all the weight on the release managers to
> review every bug in Debian and decide whether it's release-critical.

Agreed, and that wasn't the intent of my statements. The release
managers set a policy on how they will regard the bug's severity, but
it's not a definition *of* the severity levels.

> They publish release criteria, and I think the rest of us should try
> to at least take a first pass to save them work.

Indeed, but that decision should be made on an assessment of the
impact of the bug's severity as per the definitions of the severity
level values, and only *then* should the chosen severity level be a
consideration for release of the package. I'm arguing that the
decision flow should be in that direction (and is defined that way),
whereas I see it sometimes flowing the other way, which I see as
incorrect.


Don Armstrong  writes:

> The only distinction that has importance for release criticality is
> the important <-> serious division; anyone can try to adjust the
> severity to follow the guidelines of the release team, but the
> release team make the final decision. Likewise, anyone can try to
> adjust the severities outside of this division, but the
> maintainer(s) make the final decision.

Perhaps my point can be made better by a thought experiment:

Suppose the release managers decide that the division line you point
out will, as of tomorrow, lie in a different place from where it is
today (i.e. between a different neighbouring pair of severity levels).
Suppose further that their reasoning for this is unanimously (!)
accepted by all DDs as reasonable and the change a necessary one.

I would argue: Such a situation should *not* require changing the
severity level of *any* bug report in the BTS. Any existing report
that requires its severity changed as a result of this changed
criterion is classified incorrectly, and any decision to change a bug
report's severity, based only on this changed release criterion, is an
incorrect decision.

By that argument, we should consider “is this bug release-critical?”
to be irrelevant (or, at least, out of our hands) when setting the
severity level of a bug report, just as though the criterion cannot be
known at the time of setting the severity level.

-- 
 \ “No wonder I'm all confused; one of my parents was a woman, the |
  `\ other was a man.” —Ashleigh Brilliant |
_o__)  |
Ben Finney


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Re: "Debian women may leave due to 'sexist' post"

[Amaya]

Peter Tuhársky wrote:
> Saying that, I'm glad there are women in Debian community, although I
> don't fully understand their effort to maintain a special "Debian
> Women"  community. There is no "Debian Men" community I know of, and

Oh! Wait! What about the men!

I think you lack some perspective. Debian Men is the *default*
When I joined Debian there were 4 female developers, only one was
active., out of 1000 male ones. I felt weird becasue I was so much into
this 'boy thing'. 

By creating Debian Women, we are sending out the message that it is
definitely ok to be a female and and a geek, and we aim to create
visibility for those female users, developers, contributors... so that
they can serve as 'role models', or inspiration for other males and
females who might be inteested in getting involved. 

Regarding my personal webpage, it has nothing to do with Debian, so it
is offtopic in this discussion. The fact that I am a radical feminist
has nothing to do with Debian Women. I learned about feminism a lot
after Debian Women was created. My sorry attemps to get approval of our
project from male developers can be found in the list archives and proof
I had no idea what I was doing.

When I reflected upon my need for approval, I also found my answer to
the one million dollars question: Why are there so few women in
computing?
For me, the patriachy is an acceptable answer. Find your own, it is an
enlightment trip, and you do not need to aome to my same answer. 

You are right, the images there might be offensive to you as a man.
I am not sorry for that, sorry :) 

Debian Women is a group of women, not a group of feminists. Some of us
are feminists, well, get over it.

If any part of my answer sounds harsh, I am sorry, I didn't intend to. I
did my best over a sloppy ssh connection to be clear, but unapologetic.

I blame the patriarchy for this.

-- 
 ·''`.There's no arguing with Nature.
: :' :Promises comfort fools.
`. `'All work and no play, makes Jack a dull boy.
  `- Proudly running Debian GNU/Linux


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Orphaning some perl packages

[Marc 'HE' Brockschmidt]

retitle 456924 O: libgstreamer-perl -- Perl interface to the gstreamer
noowner 456924
thanks

Heya,

In my quest to get rid of tasks I don't have the motivation to actually
work on, I want to give up some of my packages. Basically, there are
three groups: Packages that are just fine and need a maintainer,
packages that are just fine and should probably go to the perl group and
packages that should probably be removed. I've marked the packages
accordingly in the following list. Whatever doesn't get picked up here
will get an O/RM bug in a few weeks (that is, whenever I think about
this again):

* libtest-number-delta-perl
  libx11-freedesktop-desktopentry-perl
  libexporter-tidy-perl
  libextutils-depends-perl
  libextutils-pkgconfig-perl
   Misc perl libs. Should probably go to the perl group.

* libcairo-perl*
  libglib-perl*
  libgnome2-canvas-perl
  libgnome2-gconf-perl*
  libgnome2-perl*
  libgnome2-print-perl*
  libgnome2-vfs-perl*
  libgnome2-wnck-perl*
  libgtk2-ex-podviewer-perl
  libgtk2-gladexml-perl*
  libgtk2-html2-perl
  libgtk2-perl*
  libgtk2-spell-perl
  libgtk2-trayicon-perl
  libgtk2-traymanager-perl
   Perl bindings for some common Gtk/Gnome libraries. Upstream is
   active, updates packages and fixes issues. Maintaining these packages
   is easy, if a bit boring. Perl group material, I guess. At the
   moment, some of these (the ones with a *) are maintained by the
   "Gtk2-Perl Maintainers" (active members: 0.2, and that's me).

   libgtk2-spell-perl and libgtk2-html2-perl could also be removed from
   the archive. The rest is of good quality and used.

* odot
   Small todo application based on Gtk2-Perl. Could also be removed, I
   guess.

* libgstreamer-perl
   Already orphaned in my last drive, someone offered to pick it up, but
   never acted on it. So it's on the list, once again.

* libenv-ps1-perl
  libterm-readline-zoid-perl
  zoidberg
   Yet another dead perl shell and support libs. Removal candidate
   unless someone is really interested (to also take over upstream
   development)

The few other packages I still have can stay with me, I think. I need
them and noone else would be interested in maintaining them, s :-)

Thanks,
Marc
-- 
Fachbegriffe der Informatik - Einfach erklärt (120: INN 2.x)
   INN 2.x ist wie Fertig-Spaghetti aus der Tüte. Schmeckt lecker und ist im
   Grunde ganz einfach zuzubereiten. Trotzdem muß man ständig umrühren,
   damit's nicht anbrennt. (Andreas M. Kirchwitz)


pgpQO3oEiurX2.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: "Debian women may leave due to 'sexist' post"

[Всеволод Величко]

Hello.

2008/12/27 Amaya :
> When I reflected upon my need for approval, I also found my answer to
> the one million dollars question: Why are there so few women in
> computing?
> For me, the patriachy is an acceptable answer. Find your own, it is an
> enlightment trip, and you do not need to aome to my same answer.
As for me, if someone is not interested in something, why he must be
involved to it? E. g., Debian community has not so many members from
Saint Helena island, and what does it mean? Discrimination? Something
else? No, their majority probably don't use internet at all, and the
rested are not interested in Debian. So why we are not accusing
communtiy of discriminating Saint Helena inhabitants? :)
Hopefully, no Debian members will be against women joining to Debian.
But as we have no discrimination, they should satisfy all requirements
put in for all candidates. No more :)
>
> You are right, the images there might be offensive to you as a man.
> I am not sorry for that, sorry :)
>
Excuse me, you are against sexism, but what you mention is the same -
from the opposite side. That's the same "women's" sexism. If we should
respect women's rights, may be women should do the same? Otherwise it
looks very childish, sorry.

-- 
Best wishes,
Velichko Vsevolod.


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Re: "Debian women may leave due to 'sexist' post"

[Всеволод Величко]

Sorry me, community, I've missed first messages in the thread firstly.
I also hope, that this idiotic discussion will be closed soon.

-- 
Best wishes,
Velichko Vsevolod


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Re: "Debian women may leave due to 'sexist' post"

[Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso]

2008/12/27 Всеволод Величко :
> Excuse me, you are against sexism, but what you mention is the same -
> from the opposite side. That's the same "women's" sexism. If we should
> respect women's rights, may be women should do the same? Otherwise it
> looks very childish, sorry.

Something a lot of people don't understand about feminism is that it
isn't symmetrical, because the situation of women and men has never
been symmetrical (and biologically, never fully will). The aim of
feminism is to give (at least) *political* symmetry to women with
regards to men.

Historically, in most parts of the world, women have been property.
The notion that women are actually independent agents and not cattle
is very new in western civilisation, and arguably still not firmly
established in many other parts of the world (and some may argue that
it's not even firmly established in certains parts of western
civilisation either). Women have been politically invisible for many
centuries. Whatever other oppression men may have felt, it pales in
comparison to the oppression women have felt, which has always been at
least as bad as what men suffer but is further compounded by many
other factors.

As for Amaya's website, sure, it looks like she favours pins of a
radical feminist variety, of the "I'm not going to shut up and take
it" kind of feminism, but I don't see her advocating violence towards
men, that men should be raped, that men should lose the right to vote,
that men should not own property, that men should be sexually
harrassed at all times in the streets, that men are naturally unable
to perform any intellectual or physical task, shouldn't be educated,
nor participate in the public sphere. These are all things that
historically happened to women everywhere all the time, and still
happen in many places, in many ways. You may not feel as a man that
you are perpetrating any of these things (and are you sure you are
not?), but bear in mind that these are the kinds of issues that
feminism is trying to fight against.

If she were to advocate any of those things, then I say that (her
brand of) feminism would be more symmetrical to patriarchy.

She does, however, say some things that may make some people
uncomfortable. I believe she's doing this because she's taking the
bottom right path in my handy online politeness decision flowchart:

 http://platinum.linux.pl/~jordi/piccies/posting.png

Furthermore, I agree that it's her own personal website, and largely
irrelevant to the Debian project.

> I also hope, that this idiotic discussion will be closed soon.

Which idiotic discussion?

I think we have a bigger problem in that we *have* lost at least one
member of d-women, over other problems Debian has had.

I am preparing a response to this that I will soon share with the
other members of the Debian community. This isn't the first time
something of this sort happens within the project. I'm remembering a
post about something that happened in #debian-offtopic in Freenode not
so long ago:

 http://www.mail-archive.com/debian-wo...@lists.debian.org/msg03320.html

I think we do need a code of conduct, sanctioned by the leadership of
the community, else risk further loss of cohesion within the
community.

- Jordi G. H.

Re: "Debian women may leave due to 'sexist' post"

[Sam Kuper]

2008/12/27 Всеволод Величко :
> 2008/12/27 Amaya :
>> When I reflected upon my need for approval, I also found my answer to
>> the one million dollars question: Why are there so few women in
>> computing?
>> For me, the patriachy is an acceptable answer. Find your own, it is an
>> enlightment trip, and you do not need to aome to my same answer.
>
> As for me, if someone is not interested in something, why he must be
> involved to it? E. g., Debian community has not so many members from
> Saint Helena island, and what does it mean? Discrimination? Something
> else? No, their majority probably don't use internet at all, and the
> rested are not interested in Debian.

The total population of Saint Helena is significantly smaller (<5000
people) than the total population of women in countries in which
Debian is used (and where internet access is readily available, etc),
so your comparison is not a fair one.

> So why we are not accusing
> communtiy of discriminating Saint Helena inhabitants? :)

I think that if a Debian developer posted an off-topic message to the
mailing list in which people from Saint Helena were talked about in a
derogatory fashion, it would be reasonable for that to be regarded as
discriminatory, especially if the OP was unrepentant.

> Hopefully, no Debian members will be against women joining to Debian.
> But as we have no discrimination, they should satisfy all requirements
> put in for all candidates. No more :)

FWIW, I agree, as long as the "we have no discrimination" statement is
a promise that is kept.

Regards,

Sam

PS. [OT] If you are unfamiliar with the general arguments in favour of
having a women's movement even where a nominally equivalent men's
movement does not exist - in this case, for having a "debian women"
group even if there is no "debian men" group - you may find it useful
to read Germaine Greer's "The Female Eunuch", which is widely
available[1]. Besides, it's an important book and IMHO worth reading
because of its historical significance, even if you don't like it
(although I do like it).

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/ISBN_0-374-52762-8

Bug#509953: ITP: lp-solve-java -- library providing Java bindings for lp-solve, via JNI

[David Bremner]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: David Bremner 


X-Debugs-CC: este...@v7w.com, r...@debian.org,  ani...@debian.org

* Package name: lp-solve-java
  Version : 5.5.0.13
  Upstream Author : Juergen Ebert 
* URL : http://lpsolve.sourceforge.net
* License : LGPL
  Programming Lang: C++, Java
  Description : library providing Java bindings for lp_solve, via JNI

lp_solve is a  linear(integer) programming solver based on the revised 
simplex method and the Branch-and-bound method
for the integers. 

This library is designed to provide easy access to the lp_solve API
from Java. It consists of two main parts:

- A Java class library that is used by Java client programs. It gives access to 
all
  lp_solve routines through the LpSolve class.

- A native library written in C++, also called 'stub' library, that uses the JNI
  (Java Native Interface) API to translate Java method calls into calls to the
  corresponding routines of the lp_solve library.


Comments: 

- I would be quite happy if someone (lp_solve maintainers?) wanted to take this 
over, or co-maintain
- Alternatively, I would probably join pkg-java
- Preliminary packaging (that has many policy problems, but does apparently) 
can be found at
  
  http://pivot.cs.unb.ca/git/?p=lp-solve-java.git;a=summary

  or clone from

  git://pivot.cs.unb.ca/git/lp-solve-java.git

-- System Information:
Debian Release: 5.0
  APT prefers unstable
  APT policy: (900, 'unstable')
Architecture: i386 (i686)




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Re: "Debian women may leave due to 'sexist' post"

[Russell Coker]

On Sunday 28 December 2008 09:24, "Sam Kuper"  wrote:
> I think that if a Debian developer posted an off-topic message to the
> mailing list in which people from Saint Helena were talked about in a
> derogatory fashion, it would be reasonable for that to be regarded as
> discriminatory, especially if the OP was unrepentant.

As an aside, I recall that one DD quit after a heated discussion of the status 
of a certain geographic region.  To avoid rehashing that discussion I won't 
mention the region or the DD.

The trigger for that dispute was a valid discussion about localisation.

-- 
russ...@coker.com.au
http://etbe.coker.com.au/  My Main Blog
http://doc.coker.com.au/   My Documents Blog


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Re: "Debian women may leave due to 'sexist' post"

[Russell Coker]

On Sunday 28 December 2008 08:06, "Всеволод Величко"  
wrote:
> > You are right, the images there might be offensive to you as a man.
> > I am not sorry for that, sorry :)
>
> Excuse me, you are against sexism, but what you mention is the same -
> from the opposite side. That's the same "women's" sexism. If we should
> respect women's rights, may be women should do the same? Otherwise it
> looks very childish, sorry.

In the message you replied to and in all the other messages of Amaya's that I 
have read I have not seen anything which could reasonably be interpreted as 
sexism or discrimination against any other group.

The pictures from Amaya's site which were previously cited in this thread did 
not offend me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole

Some of the pins had exaggerated slogans which are used for rhetorical effect 
(see the Wikipedia page on hyperbole).  Attending a political rally wearing a 
pin saying "I'm mildly opposed to ..." would not be effective.

-- 
russ...@coker.com.au
http://etbe.coker.com.au/  My Main Blog
http://doc.coker.com.au/   My Documents Blog


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Re: Bug severity and release-critical status

[Don Armstrong]

On Sat, 27 Dec 2008, Ben Finney wrote:
> Suppose the release managers decide that the division line you point
> out will, as of tomorrow, lie in a different place from where it is
> today (i.e. between a different neighbouring pair of severity
> levels). Suppose further that their reasoning for this is
> unanimously (!) accepted by all DDs as reasonable and the change a
> necessary one.
> 
> I would argue: Such a situation should *not* require changing the
> severity level of *any* bug report in the BTS. Any existing report
> that requires its severity changed as a result of this changed
> criterion is classified incorrectly, and any decision to change a
> bug report's severity, based only on this changed release criterion,
> is an incorrect decision.

That's not correct. If a bug doesn't meet the criterial for release
criticality, its severity will need to be adjusted (or in some cases,
an -ignore tag added).


Don Armstrong

-- 
I never until now realized that the primary job of any emoticon is to
say "excuse me, that didn't make any sense." ;-P
 -- Cory Doctorow

http://www.donarmstrong.com  http://rzlab.ucr.edu


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Results for General Resolution: Lenny and resolving DFSG violations

[devotee]

Greetings,

This message is an automated, unofficial publication of vote results.
 Official results shall follow, sent in by the vote taker, namely
Debian Project Secretary

This email is just a convenience for the impatient.
 I remain, gentle folks,

Your humble servant,
Devotee (on behalf of Debian Project Secretary)

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Starting results calculation at Sun Dec 28 00:03:02 2008

Option 1 "Reaffirm the Social Contract"
Option 2 "Allow Lenny to release with proprietary firmware [3:1]"
Option 3 "Allow Lenny to release with DFSG violations [3:1]"
Option 4 "Empower the release team to decide about allowing DFSG violations 
[3:1]"
Option 5 "Assume blobs comply with GPL unless proven otherwise"
Option 6 "Exclude source requirements for firmware (defined) [3:1]"
Option 7 "Further Discussion"

In the following table, tally[row x][col y] represents the votes that
option x received over option y.

  Option
  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 
===   ===   ===   ===   ===   ===   === 
Option 1   4660727389   117 
Option 2281 160   160   171   177   224 
Option 325561 125   137   151   204 
Option 4253   121   146 160   166   194 
Option 5234   105   128   135 136   191 
Option 6220   118   134   125   134 180 
Option 7226   129   145   153   160   169   



Looking at row 2, column 1, Allow Lenny to release with proprietary firmware 
[3:1]
received 281 votes over Reaffirm the Social Contract

Looking at row 1, column 2, Reaffirm the Social Contract
received 46 votes over Allow Lenny to release with proprietary firmware [3:1].

Option 1 Reached quorum: 117 > 47.8591684006314
Option 2 Reached quorum: 224 > 47.8591684006314
Option 3 Reached quorum: 204 > 47.8591684006314
Option 4 Reached quorum: 194 > 47.8591684006314
Option 5 Reached quorum: 191 > 47.8591684006314
Option 6 Reached quorum: 180 > 47.8591684006314


Dropping Option 1 because of Majority. 
(0.5176991150442477876106194690265486725664)  0.518 (117/226) < 1
Dropping Option 2 because of Majority. 
(1.736434108527131782945736434108527131783)  1.736 (224/129) < 3
Dropping Option 3 because of Majority. 
(1.406896551724137931034482758620689655172)  1.407 (204/145) < 3
Dropping Option 4 because of Majority. 
(1.267973856209150326797385620915032679739)  1.268 (194/153) < 3
Option 5 passes Majority.   1.194 (191/160) >= 1
Dropping Option 6 because of Majority. 
(1.065088757396449704142011834319526627219)  1.065 (180/169) < 3


  Option 5 defeats Option 7 by ( 191 -  160) =   31 votes.


The Schwartz Set contains:
 Option 5 "Assume blobs comply with GPL unless proven otherwise"



-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

The winners are:
 Option 5 "Assume blobs comply with GPL unless proven otherwise"

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

-- 
The voters have spoken, the bastards... --unknown
DEbian VOTe EnginE
digraph Results {
  ranksep=0.25;
 "Reaffirm the Social Contract\n0.52" [ style="filled" , color="pink", 
shape=octagon, fontname="Helvetica", fontsize=10  ];
 "Further Discussion" -> "Reaffirm the Social Contract\n0.52" [ label="109" ];
 "Allow Lenny to release with proprietary firmware [3:1]\nMajority=1.74" -> 
"Reaffirm the Social Contract\n0.52" [ label="235",  style="dotted", 
color="pink" ];
 "Empower the release team to decide about allowing DFSG violations 
[3:1]\nMajority=1.27" -> "Reaffirm the Social Contract\n0.52" [ label="181",  
style="dotted", color="pink" ];
 "Allow Lenny to release with DFSG violations [3:1]\nMajority=1.41" -> 
"Reaffirm the Social Contract\n0.52" [ label="195",  style="dotted", 
color="pink" ];
 "Exclude source requirements for firmware (defined) [3:1]\nMajority=1.07" -> 
"Reaffirm the Social Contract\n0.52" [ label="131",  style="dotted", 
color="pink" ];
 "Allow Lenny to release with proprietary firmware [3:1]\n1.74" [ 
style="filled" , color="pink", shape=octagon, fontname="Helvetica", fontsize=10 
 ];
 "Further Discussion" -> "Allow Lenny to release with proprietary firmware 
[3:1]\n1.74" [ label="-95" ];
 "Allow Lenny to release with DFSG violations [3:1]\n1.41" [ style="filled" , 
color="pink", shape=octagon, fontname="Helvetica", fontsize=10  ];
 "Further Discussion" -> "Allow Lenny to release with DFSG violations 
[3:1]\n1.41" [ label="-59" ];
 "Allow Lenny to release with proprietary firmware [3:1]\nMajority=1.74" -> 
"Allow Lenny to release with DFSG violations [3:1]\n1.41" [ label="99",  
style="dotted", color="pink" ];
 "Empower the release team to decide about allowing DFSG violations 
[3:1]\nMajority=1.27" -> "Allow Lenny to release with DFSG violations 
[3:1]\n1.41" [ label="21",  sty

Re: "Debian women may leave due to 'sexist' post"

[Michael D. Norwick]

Amaya wrote:

Peter Tuhársky wrote:
  

Saying that, I'm glad there are women in Debian community, although I
don't fully understand their effort to maintain a special "Debian
Women"  community. There is no "Debian Men" community I know of, and



Oh! Wait! What about the men!

I think you lack some perspective. Debian Men is the *default*
When I joined Debian there were 4 female developers, only one was
active., out of 1000 male ones. I felt weird becasue I was so much into
this 'boy thing'. 


By creating Debian Women, we are sending out the message that it is
definitely ok to be a female and and a geek, and we aim to create
visibility for those female users, developers, contributors... so that
they can serve as 'role models', or inspiration for other males and
females who might be inteested in getting involved. 


Regarding my personal webpage, it has nothing to do with Debian, so it
is offtopic in this discussion. The fact that I am a radical feminist
has nothing to do with Debian Women. I learned about feminism a lot
after Debian Women was created. My sorry attemps to get approval of our
project from male developers can be found in the list archives and proof
I had no idea what I was doing.

When I reflected upon my need for approval, I also found my answer to
the one million dollars question: Why are there so few women in
computing?
For me, the patriachy is an acceptable answer. Find your own, it is an
enlightment trip, and you do not need to aome to my same answer. 


You are right, the images there might be offensive to you as a man.
I am not sorry for that, sorry :) 


Debian Women is a group of women, not a group of feminists. Some of us
are feminists, well, get over it.

If any part of my answer sounds harsh, I am sorry, I didn't intend to. I
did my best over a sloppy ssh connection to be clear, but unapologetic.

I blame the patriarchy for this.

  

From: http://cs-www.cs.yale.edu/homes/tap/past-women-cs.html


 Pioneering Women of Computing

   * *Ada Byron King, Countess of Lovelace (1815-1852)*
 
   * *Edith Clarke (1883-1959)*
 

   * *Rósa Péter (1905-1977)*
 
   * *Grace Murray Hopper (1906-1992)*
 

   * *Alexandra Illmer Forsythe (1918-1980)*
 


   * *Evelyn Boyd Granville*
 

   * *Margaret R. Fox*
 


   * *Erna Schneider Hoover*
 


   * *Kay McNulty Mauchly Antonelli*
 

   * *Alice Burks*
 

   * *Adele Goldstine*
 

   * *Joan Margaret Winters*
 


No, women never did anything significant with computers.

Why didn't this lady stay in the kitchen?? Physics is such a 'guy thing'.

From Wikipedia:

*Marie Skłodowska–Curie* (7 November 1867 – 4 July 1934) was a physicist 
 and chemist 
 of Polish 
 upbringing and, subsequently, 
French  citizenship. She was a 
pioneer in the field of radioactivity 
, the only person honored 
with Nobel Prizes  in two 
different sciences,^[1] 
 and the first 
female professor at the University of Paris 
.


Michael


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Re: "Debian women may leave due to 'sexist' post"

[Stephen Gran]

This one time, at band camp, Michael D. Norwick said:
> Amaya wrote:
> >Peter Tuhársky wrote:
> >
> > > Saying that, I'm glad there are women in Debian community,
> > > although I don't fully understand their effort to maintain a
> > > special "Debian Women"  community. There is no "Debian Men"
> > > community I know of, and
> >
> >Oh! Wait! What about the men!
> >
> >I think you lack some perspective. Debian Men is the *default* When I
> >joined Debian there were 4 female developers, only one was active.,
> >out of 1000 male ones. I felt weird becasue I was so much into this
> >'boy thing'. 
>
> From: http://cs-www.cs.yale.edu/homes/tap/past-women-cs.html
> 
>  Pioneering Women of Computing
> 
> No, women never did anything significant with computers.

You understand that arguing that computer science is not currently
predominantly male because there are notable women in the field is not
just wrong, but patently silly, right?
-- 
 -
|   ,''`.Stephen Gran |
|  : :' :sg...@debian.org |
|  `. `'Debian user, admin, and developer |
|`- http://www.debian.org |
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Re: "Debian women may leave due to 'sexist' post"

[Всеволод Величко]

Hello.

2008/12/28 Lisi Reisz :
> You would appear to be a man.  If that is inaccurate, I apologise.
>
> But this is, as you point out, a _women's_ list.  We have a right to
> discus what we choose to discuss.  But I refute your allegation that
> this topic is idiotic.  For those of us who are old enough to have
> been officially and by law down-moted to second class citizenship when
> we married; by law lumped in with children, and not in with men.
>
That message has been carbon-copied to debian-devel list. I'm not
reading debian-women list. You think, this discussion should take
place in d-d? I'm not sure.

> This discussion is not idiotic.  The issues it raises are improving,
> but are at the crux of a woman's existence.  Indeed, your email seems
> to me to embody much of what I object to.
>
> If you choose to belong to a women's list, you have to accept that you
> may not like everything that every woman says.
>
> But who are you to decide what the rest of us may or may not do?
>
Yes, I've already answered it. I have no contact with d-w list.
If you're sending something to d-d, be ready that d-d have other
rules, than d-w.


-- 
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Velichko Vsevolod


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Re: "Debian women may leave due to 'sexist' post"

[Russell Coker]

On Sunday 28 December 2008 12:30, "Всеволод Величко"  
wrote:
> That message has been carbon-copied to debian-devel list. I'm not
> reading debian-women list. You think, this discussion should take
> place in d-d? I'm not sure.

Did Lisi's message go to the debian-devel list?  If so I didn't receive it.

Maybe she sent a message to d-w and CC'd you as a courtesy.

> > If you choose to belong to a women's list, you have to accept that you
> > may not like everything that every woman says.
> >
> > But who are you to decide what the rest of us may or may not do?
>
> Yes, I've already answered it. I have no contact with d-w list.
> If you're sending something to d-d, be ready that d-d have other
> rules, than d-w.

http://lists.debian.org/debian-women/2008/12/threads.html

The above list archive page has some of your messages, so it is not accurate 
to claim that you have no contact with the d-w list.

-- 
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http://etbe.coker.com.au/  My Main Blog
http://doc.coker.com.au/   My Documents Blog


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Re: Orphaning some perl packages

[Ryan Niebur]

Hi,

I intend to adopt these for pkg-perl:

> * libtest-number-delta-perl
>   libx11-freedesktop-desktopentry-perl
>   libexporter-tidy-perl
>   libextutils-depends-perl
>   libextutils-pkgconfig-perl
>Misc perl libs. Should probably go to the perl group.
> 

and these too:

> * libcairo-perl*
>   libglib-perl*
>   libgnome2-canvas-perl
>   libgnome2-gconf-perl*
>   libgnome2-perl*
>   libgnome2-print-perl*
>   libgnome2-vfs-perl*
>   libgnome2-wnck-perl*
>   libgtk2-ex-podviewer-perl
>   libgtk2-gladexml-perl*
>   libgtk2-perl*
>   libgtk2-spell-perl
>   libgtk2-trayicon-perl
>   libgtk2-traymanager-perl
>Perl bindings for some common Gtk/Gnome libraries. Upstream is
>active, updates packages and fixes issues. Maintaining these packages
>is easy, if a bit boring. Perl group material, I guess. At the
>moment, some of these (the ones with a *) are maintained by the
>"Gtk2-Perl Maintainers" (active members: 0.2, and that's me).
> 
>libgtk2-spell-perl and libgtk2-html2-perl could also be removed from
>the archive. The rest is of good quality and used.
> 

*except* for libgtk2-html2-perl.

of course, I or some other member of the team could end up adopting others also.

Thanks,
Ryan

-- 
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Ryan Niebur
ryanrya...@gmail.com


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RFC: adding pre-depends to libpam-modules for lenny

[Steve Langasek]

Hi folks,

I'm attempting to solve bug #502140 in pam, which is marked as
release-critical for lenny.  Unfortunately, the only ways to solve this all
involve fiddling around with preinsts of transitively essential packages, so
per Policy 3.5 I'm asking here about my proposed solution to add Pre-Depends
to libpam0g.

The issue is that, in order to reliably ensure that a user (such as the
admin) is not locked out by xscreensaver or xlockmore in the middle of an
upgrade, possibly breaking the very upgrade by leaving the admin unable to
get back to a pending conffile or debconf prompt, the admin must be
prompted, giving them the opportunity to disable the screensaver, before
the new libpam-modules is unpacked.  (I'm ruling out the option of forcibly
disabling the screensaver as part of the upgrade; even if we can do this
reliably, I don't think it's appropriate.)

There are two ways to achieve this prompt-before-unpack: we can put the
prompt in the preinst of libpam-modules and have libpam-modules pre-depend
on debconf, or we can put the prompt in the preinst of libpam-modules using
the same style of opportunistic debconf use found in the preinst of libc6.

In practice, debconf is already be part of the transitively essential set in
Debian, as of lenny:

  Package: login
  Essential: yes
  Version: 1:4.1.1-6
  Pre-Depends: libc6 (>= 2.7-1), libpam0g (>= 0.99.7.1), libpam-runtime, 
libpam-modules

  Package: libpam0g
  Version: 1.0.1-4
  Depends: libc6 (>= 2.7-1), debconf (>= 0.5) | debconf-2.0, libpam-runtime

Therefore, I don't see that there is any disadvantage in terms of the
dependency graph to have libpam-modules Pre-Depend on debconf:  because
libpam0g and libpam-modules must both already be configured prior to unpack
of the Essential login package, and libpam0g Depends on debconf, having
libpam-runtime also Pre-Depend on debconf does not add any significant new
constraints.

(Whether debconf should be transitively essential at all might be a
different question, I suppose; I didn't discuss the new dependency on
debian-devel when I added it, but so far I'm not aware of any bug reports in
Debian or Ubuntu that are traceable to this change.)

The disadvantages with the approach currently used by libc6 are:

- In theory, in some number of cases debconf will not be installed and
  therefore the user will have a fallback to a tty-only prompt in English.
  Current policy doesn't actually allow for this - it states that
  non-debconf prompting is deprecated, without making allowances for
  transitively essential packages.
- The check for whether to use debconf is not at all reliable:  since
  debconf itself is not Essential: yes, it may be unpacked but in an
  unusable state (e.g., because of broken dependencies), so checking for
  [ -f /usr/share/debconf/confmodule ] without also pre-depending does not
  guarantee debconf is in a usable state, in which case the maintainer
  script will fail ungracefully.

Therefore I think it's neither necessary nor appropriate for libpam-modules
to avoid a pre-dependency on debconf.

Is it ok to make libpam-modules Pre-Depends: debconf (>= 0.5) | debconf-2.0
for lenny?

Also, once that change is made, it might be appropriate to also move the
current service restart handling from the libpam0g postinst to the
libpam-modules preinst.  The reason to do this is that libpam0g is not the
only library used by libpam-modules that could cause symbol skew for a
running service (the same problem has been reported in Ubuntu with
versioned symbols from glibc), so although not relevant for etch->lenny
(because the lenny libpam0g depends on the lenny libc6), in the general
case it's possible the libpam0g postinst is too early to restart services to
ensure they're usable afterwards with the new libpam-modules.

So is it ok to also make libpam-modules Pre-Depends: ${shlibs:Depends} for
lenny?  For reference, the current shlibs (on i386) are:

  libc6 (>= 2.7-1), libdb4.6, libpam0g (>= 0.99.7.1), libselinux1 (>= 2.0.59)

Again, these are all already transitively essential, so the main concern is
whether further restricting the unpack order will cause any dependency
loops, which I don't believe it will.

If y'all agree to this change, I can knock out the implementation within a
couple of days and get another RC bug off the list - then I just have to
accept the beatings from Christian for the implied addition of a new debconf
template this late in the lenny freeze... :)

Thanks,
-- 
Steve Langasek   Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer   to set it on, and I can move the world.
Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/
slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org


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