Re: Packages still depending on GTK+ 1.2

[Mike Hommey]

On Sat, Dec 06, 2008 at 01:50:44AM +0100, Morten Kjeldgaard wrote:
>
> On 06/12/2008, at 00.09, Michael Banck wrote:
>
>>> There are several useful science programs that still make use of GTK+
>>> 1.2, one is a very useful chemistry program, GAMGI, which is in the  
>>> new
>>> queue and on its way into unstable.
>>
>> AFAICT, gamgi is using GTK-2.0.
>
> Yes you are right, gamgi uses GTK-2.0 as of March this year. I was  
> quoting from (volatile, apparently) memory.
>
> However, I maintain my objection. One thing is removing out-of-date  
> applications, another is to remove a library which may well be used by  
> users to compile and link their local applications. Even though there  
> are no apps in Debian linking to GTK+ 1.2 the library should really  
> remain in the archives.

With such arguments, we would still ship every single bit that was
shipped some day. This is going nowhere.

Moreover, removing a package from the archive doesn't mean it will
disappear at apt-get dist-upgrade time, not that it will disappear from
archive.debian.org.

Mike


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Re: Packages still depending on GTK+ 1.2

[Andreas Tille]

On Fri, 5 Dec 2008, Josselin Mouette wrote:


Andreas Tille <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  libgtkimreg
  paul
=> Yay, an imaging library and an image viewer


As I said in a similar thread: These two packages should not block a
GTK 1.2 removal but as long as the library is there they might remain.
Just found a "paul fan mail" in my inbox.  I confirm that paul is not
maintained upstream (me) any more.  It has features I do not know from
any other viewer (that's why I started coding it 10 years ago) but
it is not important enough to keep GTK 1.2just for this purpose.

Kind regards

   Andreas.

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Re: Bug#457318: qmail and related packages in NEW

[Stephen Gran]

This one time, at band camp, Gerrit Pape said:
> Finally, just as not supporting VRFY, not rejecting in the SMTP
> conversation makes it harder for the spammers to sort out bad recipient
> addresses, and so to use their resources even more efficiently.

That is so stunningly wrong an argument I can't even think of anything
to say.  Are you sure you should be working with MTA software?
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Re: Packages still depending on GTK+ 1.2

[Morten Kjeldgaard]

On 06/12/2008, at 10.01, Mike Hommey wrote:


With such arguments, we would still ship every single bit that was
shipped some day. This is going nowhere.


I don't recall advocating that every single bit that was shipped some  
day should be kept around.  You are twisting my words and distorting  
my view into something obviously absurd.



Moreover, removing a package from the archive doesn't mean it will
disappear at apt-get dist-upgrade time, not that it will disappear  
from

archive.debian.org.



I've had this discussion several times before with people, but it  
doesn't hurt to repeat.


For whom is the Debian distribution? Is it created to satisfy the  
needs of  only the packagers and developers? If so, it is absolutely  
logical to get rid of everything a couple of years past expiry date.


To be clear, we are not talking about applications for which a  
replacement -- often better -- exists. We are talking about libraries.  
In my opinion, Debian is also for programmers who don't package their  
software for the distribution, but distribute it themselves or don't  
distribute it at all.


I mentioned science programs, and these are typical examples where the  
authors are not programmers who are geekily fascinated with every new  
incarnation of a graphics toolkit, but are more interested in  
developing the methods, applicability and scope of their own  
algorithms. If the menu system and dialogue boxes work, why spend more  
time on it?


You may disagree with the above reasoning, but it is a fact of life of  
many Debian users, and it is arrogant to disregard.


GTK+ 1.2 is not just any old library. It was the first truly open and  
free graphics toolkit of excellent quality, an alternative to Motif  
and the ugly Xaw widget sets, and was eagerly embraced by everyone.  
This is a central and historic piece of software.


So I am not advocating keeping every bit of software around. In this  
discussion, I am advocating keeping GTK+ 1.2 around.  The LIBRARIES. I  
am not opposed to weeding out out-dated applications that make use of  
it, if reasonable replacements are available.


But Libraries represent a resource for _others_ than packagers and  
developers.


Cheers,
Morten


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Re: Packages still depending on GTK+ 1.2

[Barry deFreese]

Morten Kjeldgaard wrote:


For whom is the Debian distribution? Is it created to satisfy the 
needs of  only the packagers and developers? If so, it is absolutely 
logical to get rid of everything a couple of years past expiry date.



So I am not advocating keeping every bit of software around. In this 
discussion, I am advocating keeping GTK+ 1.2 around.  The LIBRARIES. I 
am not opposed to weeding out out-dated applications that make use of 
it, if reasonable replacements are available.


But Libraries represent a resource for _others_ than packagers and 
developers.


Cheers,
Morten


Morten,

I understand where you are coming from but it also becomes an issue of 
resources.  We already have a buttload of orphaned and/or QA maintained 
packages.  If we keep every version of every library out there how do we 
support it?  Look at libnet0.  It's orphaned but has several depends 
while libnet1 exists.  Who's taking care of those users?  Should we keep 
every version of glibc in the archive?  How about all the gnome1 stuff?


BTW, I don't care if GTK+ 1.2 stays or goes but I do care about 
unmaintained stuff hanging around.


Just my worthless $.02 :)

Barry deFreese


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Re: Packages still depending on GTK+ 1.2

[Michael Banck]

On Sat, Dec 06, 2008 at 09:20:31AM -0500, Barry deFreese wrote:
> Morten Kjeldgaard wrote:
>> So I am not advocating keeping every bit of software around.
> If we keep every version of every library out there how do we  support
> it?  

Morten did not say that.


Michael


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Re: Packages still depending on GTK+ 1.2

[Barry deFreese]

Michael Banck wrote:

On Sat, Dec 06, 2008 at 09:20:31AM -0500, Barry deFreese wrote:
  

Morten Kjeldgaard wrote:


So I am not advocating keeping every bit of software around.
  

If we keep every version of every library out there how do we  support
it?  



Morten did not say that.


Michael

Obviously I was exaggerating purposely.

Barry


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Re: Packages still depending on GTK+ 1.2

[Devid Antonio Filoni]

On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 7:06 PM, Josselin Mouette <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Devid Filoni <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>   dillo
>  => there is a new upstream based on FLTK
I'm working on fltk2 package in order to update dillo to the new
upstream version that requires it.

Devid Antonio Filoni


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Bug#507988: ITP: SubLib -- CLI library that eases the development of subtitling applications

[Tiago Bortoletto Vaz]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Tiago Bortoletto Vaz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


* Package name: SubLib
  Version : 0.9
  Upstream Author : Pedro Castro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
* URL : http://sublib.sourceforge.net/
* License : GPL
  Programming Lang: C#
  Description : CLI library that eases the development of subtitling 
applications

SubLib supports the most common text-based subtitle formats and allows for
subtitle editing, conversion and synchronization.

-- System Information:
Debian Release: lenny/sid
  APT prefers unstable
  APT policy: (500, 'unstable')
Architecture: i386 (i686)



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Re: Packages still depending on GTK+ 1.2

[Josselin Mouette]

Le vendredi 05 décembre 2008 à 21:43 -0600, Raphael Geissert a écrit :
> > Alain Schroeder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >gsnes9x
> >  => visualboyadvance ?
> 
> C'mon, there are at least 15 years between the two consoles.
> And nope, visualboyadvance doesn't replace gsnes9x, although the latter is 
> just
> a front-end.

Gah, I thought it was able to handle SNES ROMs. The correct answer would
probably be zsnes, although it only works on i386.

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Re: Packages still depending on GTK+ 1.2

[Josselin Mouette]

Le samedi 06 décembre 2008 à 14:27 +0100, Morten Kjeldgaard a écrit :
> GTK+ 1.2 is not just any old library. It was the first truly open and  
> free graphics toolkit of excellent quality, an alternative to Motif  
> and the ugly Xaw widget sets, and was eagerly embraced by everyone.  
> This is a central and historic piece of software.

If you agree to take over upstream maintenance - including security
maintenance in imlib and gdk-imlib, maybe we could keep it around, yeah.

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Re: Packages still depending on GTK+ 1.2

[Morten Kjeldgaard]

On 06/12/2008, at 15.47, Barry deFreese wrote:


Obviously I was exaggerating purposely.


Yes, but, you know, exaggerating the position of others in a forum  
like this is not really constructive. In fact, it signals that you've  
run out of arguments.


I raised a -- I think -- valid concern that certain libraries can't  
just be removed just because they're "old" or not used anymore by most  
Debian apps, because they may still be useful to people who are not  
Debian Developers or package maintainers. The only argument I've read  
from various contributors to the thread is: "we can't just keep every  
ancient bit of software that was once shipped." Again, ridiculing my  
position doesn't justify yours.


However, earlier you said:

BTW, I don't care if GTK+ 1.2 stays or goes but I do care about  
unmaintained stuff hanging around.



Now that is a true concern, but OTOH it is a tangible problem that  
could be solved. So, if this is the case, why not try to solve the  
problem of maintenance for the software in question? I am speaking for  
GTK+ 1.2, I'll let others speak for software they care for. Btw, I  
can''t find GTK+ 1.2 on the Orphaned list.


Cheers,
Morten


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Re: Packages still depending on GTK+ 1.2

[Barry deFreese]

Morten Kjeldgaard wrote:


On 06/12/2008, at 15.47, Barry deFreese wrote:


Obviously I was exaggerating purposely.


Yes, but, you know, exaggerating the position of others in a forum 
like this is not really constructive. In fact, it signals that you've 
run out of arguments.



Give me a break.

I raised a -- I think -- valid concern that certain libraries can't 
just be removed just because they're "old" or not used anymore by most 
Debian apps, because they may still be useful to people who are not 
Debian Developers or package maintainers. The only argument I've read 
from various contributors to the thread is: "we can't just keep every 
ancient bit of software that was once shipped." Again, ridiculing my 
position doesn't justify yours.


No one is ridiculing you to my knowledge, that certainly isn't my 
intent.  This kind of issue goes on constantly.  It happened with 
wxwidgets, the gnome1 stuff, as I mentioned libnet0, and even to a 
smaller degree just within the games team with clanlib.  We were holding 
on to an old version of clanlib for one game.



However, earlier you said:

BTW, I don't care if GTK+ 1.2 stays or goes but I do care about 
unmaintained stuff hanging around.



Now that is a true concern, but OTOH it is a tangible problem that 
could be solved. So, if this is the case, why not try to solve the 
problem of maintenance for the software in question? I am speaking for 
GTK+ 1.2, I'll let others speak for software they care for. Btw, I 
can''t find GTK+ 1.2 on the Orphaned list.


Cheers,
Morten
I wasn't talking about GTK+ 1.2 specifically.  I'm talking about many of 
it's r(b)depends such as imlib, gnome-libs, etc in case GTK goes.  Say a 
major security bug is found withing GTK.  Now you have at least two 
dependent packages with lots of depends themselves that are effected but 
are unmaintained.


Anyway, I'll shut up now as I said, I don't care if it stays or goes.

Barry


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Packages-arch-specific maintainance changes

[Philipp Kern]

Dear developers,

we, the wanna-build admins, made the switch and put Packages-arch-specific,
the file which states what packages are excluded from which architectures,
into our hands.  This means that the submission rules for changes to this
precious file that controls our building infrastructure change a bit:

Please submit additions, corrections and removals as bugs against
buildd.debian.org to the Debian bug tracking system.  Comments about
specific bits and inquiries not fitting the criteria above may
also be sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]'.

The new canonical location of the file will be [0], with branches for
each release as found on [1].  The git repository is available on [2].
We will establish a mirror on git.debian.org to use their gitweb
frontend as soon as possible and offer a link in [2]'s base directory.
Commit mails will be sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]' like they were
before.

Scripts that use anonymous CVS checkouts should not break, neither should
scripts that use the old web location (which remained the same), but former
should be converted as soon as possible.

I thank Adam Conrad, LaMont Jones and James Troup for their past work
in maintaining this file.  This change was also communicated with two
known downstream users of the file: Ubuntu and debian-ports.  Should
there be more, it would be nice if a contact could be established
with the above mentioned mail address.

Kind regards,
Philipp Kern
on behalf of wbadm

[0] http://buildd.debian.org/quinn-diff/Packages-arch-specific
[1] http://buildd.debian.org/quinn-diff/
[2] http://buildd.debian.org/git/packages-arch-specific.git
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Re: Packages still depending on GTK+ 1.2

[Julien BLACHE]

Josselin Mouette <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>> And nope, visualboyadvance doesn't replace gsnes9x, although the latter is 
>> just
>> a front-end.
>
> Gah, I thought it was able to handle SNES ROMs. The correct answer would
> probably be zsnes, although it only works on i386.

You missed the word "frontend" in the above. gsnes9x is a simple
frontend for snes9x-x.

JB.

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Re: Packages still depending on GTK+ 1.2

[Mark Brown]

On Sat, Dec 06, 2008 at 04:25:17AM +0100, Josselin Mouette wrote:
> Le vendredi 05 d?cembre 2008 ? 22:49 +, Mark Brown a ?crit :

> > It's nothing to do with power management.  I'd rather let it stay until
> > lenny is released, though if it were the only thing keeping GTK 1.2 in
> > it should go.

> Does it even work? The description says it needs a /dev/cpu/ tree.

Yes; as the description says the /dev/cpu stuff is only required by some
of the features.  If it were required for the package to work the package
wouldn't be availible for so many architectures.

Like I say, it can wait until we're actually removing GTK 1.2.

-- 
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Re: Packages still depending on GTK+ 1.2

[Klaus Ethgen]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

You forgot xmms. It is still heavily used and there are no alternative
for it. (It is just such a application as xv - very old but there are no
alternative that completely replace it (in all facets).)

Regards
   Klaus
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pub  2048R/D1A4EDE5 2000-02-26 Klaus Ethgen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Fingerprint: D7 67 71 C4 99 A6 D4 FE  EA 40 30 57 3C 88 26 2B
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Re: Packages still depending on GTK+ 1.2

[Daniel Moerner]

On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 11:42 AM, Klaus Ethgen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> You forgot xmms. It is still heavily used and there are no alternative
> for it. (It is just such a application as xv - very old but there are no
> alternative that completely replace it (in all facets).)

xmms is gone:

[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ rmadison xmms
  xmms | 1:1.2.10+20061101-1etch1 | etch-m68k | source, m68k
  xmms | 1:1.2.10+20061101-1etch1 |stable | source, alpha,
amd64, arm, hppa, i386, ia64, mips, mipsel, powerpc, s390, sparc

http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=461309

-- 
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Re: Packages still depending on GTK+ 1.2

[Klaus Ethgen]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Am Sa den  6. Dez 2008 um 21:38 schrieb Daniel Moerner:
> xmms is gone:

It is still in stable and there are many installations. More than 7000
in popcon. And there is still no alternative.

   Klaus
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=kuwI
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Re: Packages still depending on GTK+ 1.2

[Sam Morris]

On Fri, 05 Dec 2008 19:06:26 +0100, Josselin Mouette wrote:
> Colin Watson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>putty
>  => hotwire, a plain terminal…

According to , PuTTY trunk will build against GTK+ 2.0.

\o/

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Re: Packages still depending on GTK+ 1.2

[Neil Williams]

On Sat, 6 Dec 2008 22:15:06 +0100
Klaus Ethgen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Am Sa den  6. Dez 2008 um 21:38 schrieb Daniel Moerner:
> > xmms is gone:
> 
> It is still in stable and there are many installations. More than 7000
> in popcon. And there is still no alternative.

Soon to be only in oldstable - sounds about right to me.

If you want it back, please take on the work of migrating it to
Gtk2.0. (Yes, I have already done this for other packages, before you
ask. It isn't easy but it is the only realistic option.) Don't expect
someone else to do it and don't complain if nobody bothers. You think
xmms is so essential, you go and fix it. Simple really. Nobody else
appears to want to do the work. Complaining about it without actually
doing anything about it is just going to make your argument look utterly
redundant. If it's your itch, either you scratch it or you persuade
someone who can. That person will certainly not be me. There has been
more than enough time already. I mean, even GnuCash migrated to Gtk+2.0
in time.

Bit rot has no respect for good intentions, or wishful thinking.

IMHO, Debian is not about collecting ancient software just because it is
free software. A package must deserve a place in the archive or it
should be removed.

Personally, I think there are plenty of alternatives to xmms - I
haven't missed it. If you think different, it is up to you to step up
and do something with the codebase.

-- 


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Re: Bits from the buildd.debian.org world

[Philipp Kern]

On 2008-12-04, Michael Banck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 07:26:06PM +0100, Adeodato Simó wrote:
>> Recent work from Steve McIntyre (current DPL) in coordination with Ryan
>> Murray (wanna-build maintainer and buildd admin for several architectures) 
>> has led to the injection of new blood in the buildd.debian.org world. We
> Will the experimental autobuilders get integrated into
> buildd.debian.org, where they (IMO) belong, especially with the current
> situation where experimental has replaced unstable to some extent?

It is on our long-term to-do list, yes.  It might take some time, though.

Kind regards,
Philipp Kern


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Bug#508012: ITP: maven-file-management -- Maven File Management API

[Torsten Werner]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Torsten Werner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

* Package name: maven-file-management
  Version : 1.2
  Upstream Author : Apache Software Foundation
* URL : http://maven.apache.org/shared/file-management/
* License : Apache 2.0
  Programming Lang: Java
  Description : Maven File Management API
 Maven is a software project management and comprehension tool. Based on the
 concept of a project object model (POM), Maven can manage a project's build,
 reporting and documentation from a central piece of information.
 .
 Maven's primary goal is to allow a developer to comprehend the complete
 state of a development effort in the shortest period of time. In order to
 attain this goal there are several areas of concern that Maven attempts
 to deal with:
 .
* Making the build process easy
* Providing a uniform build system
* Providing quality project information
* Providing guidelines for best practices development
* Allowing transparent migration to new features
 .
 The Maven File Management API provides an API to collect files from a given
 directory using several include/exclude rules.



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Bug#508014: ITP: maven-shared-io -- Maven API for I/O support

[Torsten Werner]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Torsten Werner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

* Package name: maven-shared-io
  Version : 1.1
  Upstream Author : Apache Software Foundation
* URL : http://maven.apache.org
* License : Apache 2.0
  Programming Lang: Java
  Description : Maven API for I/O support
 Maven is a software project management and comprehension tool. Based on the
 concept of a project object model (POM), Maven can manage a project's build,
 reporting and documentation from a central piece of information.
 .
 Maven's primary goal is to allow a developer to comprehend the complete
 state of a development effort in the shortest period of time. In order to
 attain this goal there are several areas of concern that Maven attempts
 to deal with:
 .
* Making the build process easy
* Providing a uniform build system
* Providing quality project information
* Providing guidelines for best practices development
* Allowing transparent migration to new features
 .
 This package ships the I/O support API like logging, download or file
 scanning.



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Bug#508020: ITP: maven-clean-plugin -- Maven clean plugin

[Torsten Werner]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Torsten Werner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

* Package name: maven-clean-plugin
  Version : 2.2
  Upstream Author : Apache Software Foundation
* URL : http://maven.apache.org/plugins/maven-clean-plugin/
* License : Apache 2.0
  Programming Lang: Java
  Description : Maven clean plugin
 Maven is a software project management and comprehension tool. Based on the
 concept of a project object model (POM), Maven can manage a project's build,
 reporting and documentation from a central piece of information.
 .
 Maven's primary goal is to allow a developer to comprehend the complete
 state of a development effort in the shortest period of time. In order to
 attain this goal there are several areas of concern that Maven attempts
 to deal with:
 .
* Making the build process easy
* Providing a uniform build system
* Providing quality project information
* Providing guidelines for best practices development
* Allowing transparent migration to new features
 .
 This package ships the maven clean plugin which is used to remove files
 generated at build-time in a project's directory.



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Bug#508033: ITP: libcvd -- C++ library for computer vision, image, and video processing

[Albert Huang]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Albert Huang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


* Package name: libcvd
  Version : 0.7
  Upstream Author : Ed Rosten <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
* URL : http://mi.eng.cam.ac.uk/~er258/cvd/
* License : LGPL
  Programming Lang: C++
  Description : C++ library for computer vision, image, and video processing

   The Cambridge Video Dynamics C++ library is designed to be easy to
   use and portable for fast video saving, loading and display.  It
   contains hand-optimized versions of common low-level image processing
   functions, as well as other computer vision algorithms such as the
   FAST corner detector.


-- System Information:
Debian Release: lenny/sid
  APT prefers unstable
  APT policy: (500, 'unstable'), (500, 'testing'), (500, 'stable'), (1, 
'experimental')
Architecture: i386 (i686)

Kernel: Linux 2.6.25-1-686 (SMP w/1 CPU core)
Locale: LANG=en_US.UTF-8, LC_CTYPE=en_US.UTF-8 (charmap=UTF-8)
Shell: /bin/sh linked to /bin/bash



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Bug#508035: ITP: python-django-treebeard -- Efficient implementations of tree data structures for Django

[Chris Lamb]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Chris Lamb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
X-Debbugs-Cc: debian-devel@lists.debian.org

 * Package name: python-django-treebeard
   Version : 1.1
   Upstream Author : Gustavo Picon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 * URL : http://code.google.com/p/django-treebeard
 * License : Apache License 2.0
   Programming Lang: Python
   Description : Efficient implementations of tree data structures for
 Django

  Django Treebeard is a library that implements efficient data structures
  for storing hierachical data in a database using the Django web
  development framework.
  
  It currently includes 3 different tree implementations: adjacency list,
  materialized path and nested sets. Each one has it's own strength and
  weaknesses but share the same API, so it’s easy to switch between them.


Regards,

-- 
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 : :'  : Chris Lamb
 `. `'`  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   `-


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