Re: Can/should debconf notes still be used?

[Steve Langasek]

On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 09:01:20AM +0200, Frank Küster wrote:
> Now the question is, how should we notify the user about what we've
> done?  Since this is a violation of the letter of policy, I don't think
> a remark in NEWS.Debian is appropriate, and I'd like to use a debconf
> note of priority "high".  But notes are considered deprecated.  On the
> other hand, it's not an error, so the error type doesn't seem
> appropriate... 

IMHO, documenting a policy violation in a package is never an acceptable
solution, whether that's via NEWS.Debian or a debconf note.

I would rather suggest that this is not a policy violation; policy does say
that "local changes" must be preserved, but a) if the config files were
deleted by tetex this is not a "local change", b) I don't think the
requirement to preserve local changes was ever meant to be taken as "admins
have an inalienable right to screw up a package's installation, and packages
must not try to correct for this", which seems to be the case you're
describing.

C.f. the handling of update-rc.d, which considers the removal of all rc.d
symlinks to be an invalid config and recreates them for the user.

-- 
Steve Langasek   Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer   to set it on, and I can move the world.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.debian.org/


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Re: Can/should debconf notes still be used?

[Frank Küster]

Steve Langasek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I would rather suggest that this is not a policy violation; policy does say
> that "local changes" must be preserved, but a) if the config files were
> deleted by tetex this is not a "local change", b) I don't think the
> requirement to preserve local changes was ever meant to be taken as "admins
> have an inalienable right to screw up a package's installation, and packages
> must not try to correct for this", which seems to be the case you're
> describing.

That way to look at it makes me feel much better... 

Regards, Frank

-- 
Dr. Frank Küster
Single Molecule Spectroscopy, Protein Folding @ Inst. f. Biochemie, Univ. Zürich
Debian Developer (teTeX/TeXLive)

Re: Can/should debconf notes still be used?

[Don Armstrong]

On Tue, 29 May 2007, Frank Küster wrote:
> To me, the solution is to resurrect these conffiles without
> prompting, because prompting doesn't make sense if the only working
> answer is "yes". 

Can you test to see if the system is working without the conffiles? 

Then if it is, then assume the deletion was intentional (and perhaps
give information in NEWS.Debian on how to restore them); if not,
restore them once.


Don Armstrong

-- 
DIE!
 -- Maritza Campos http://www.crfh.net/d/20020601.html

http://www.donarmstrong.com  http://rzlab.ucr.edu

Re: Can/should debconf notes still be used?

[Frank Küster]

Don Armstrong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Tue, 29 May 2007, Frank Küster wrote:
>> To me, the solution is to resurrect these conffiles without
>> prompting, because prompting doesn't make sense if the only working
>> answer is "yes". 
>
> Can you test to see if the system is working without the conffiles? 

There are about 8 RC bug reports which show quite clearly that it
doesn't.  There's no sense in testing that in the maintainer script.  If
a local admin hacked the system so much that it keeps on working without
them, I frankly don't care - it's no longer a Debian TeX Live system.

> if not,
> restore them once.

Yes, we'll do it only once anyway.

Regards, Frank
-- 
Dr. Frank Küster
Single Molecule Spectroscopy, Protein Folding @ Inst. f. Biochemie, Univ. Zürich
Debian Developer (teTeX/TeXLive)

Re: Can/should debconf notes still be used?

[Don Armstrong]

On Tue, 29 May 2007, Frank Küster wrote:
> Don Armstrong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 
> > On Tue, 29 May 2007, Frank Küster wrote:
> >> To me, the solution is to resurrect these conffiles without
> >> prompting, because prompting doesn't make sense if the only working
> >> answer is "yes". 
> >
> > Can you test to see if the system is working without the conffiles? 
> 
> There are about 8 RC bug reports which show quite clearly that it
> doesn't.  There's no sense in testing that in the maintainer script.  If
> a local admin hacked the system so much that it keeps on working without
> them, I frankly don't care - it's no longer a Debian TeX Live system.

My point was that in such a system you'd likely end up breaking it by
reinstalling the conffiles; if such a test is relatively easy, then
it'd be worth it. If not, then a NEWS.Debian entry on how to return to
the previous configuration is probably good enough for such an admin.


Don Armstrong

-- 
I shall require that [a scientific system's] logical form shall be
such that it can be singled out, by means of emperical tests, in a
negative sense: it must be possible for an emperical scientific system
to be refuted by experience.
 -- Sir Karl Popper _Logic of Scientific Discovery_ �6

http://www.donarmstrong.com  http://rzlab.ucr.edu

Making a multi-binary-kernel-module-package

[Pascal Speck]

Hello, i have a big problem with debian packaging. 
I need to create debian packages of a program i've written, but i don't
know how to solve the following problem.

I want to have one Source Tree with a Subdirectory Drivers. 
When doin a dpkg-buildpackage, two packages should be built. One of the
Userspace Program and onle of the kernel-module.

the kernel module should include the source with the posibility of
building module-packages with module-assistant.

How should the tree and the rules-file looklike? 
Does anyone know a good howto? (I read debian mtg etc.)

Greez Pasal.


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Re: Making a multi-binary-kernel-module-package

[Sune Vuorela]

On 2007-05-29, Pascal Speck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello, i have a big problem with debian packaging. 
> I need to create debian packages of a program i've written, but i don't
> know how to solve the following problem.
>
> I want to have one Source Tree with a Subdirectory Drivers. 
> When doin a dpkg-buildpackage, two packages should be built. One of the
> Userspace Program and onle of the kernel-module.

like mga-vid ?

/Sune


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Re: Making a multi-binary-kernel-module-package

[Pascal Speck]

Yeah, same issue, but where can i get the source of this package with
the /debian/ directory and all files. In Sources of these Programst
the /debian directory is always missing.

Greez Pascal



Am Dienstag, den 29.05.2007, 11:55 + schrieb Sune Vuorela:
> On 2007-05-29, Pascal Speck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Hello, i have a big problem with debian packaging. 
> > I need to create debian packages of a program i've written, but i don't
> > know how to solve the following problem.
> >
> > I want to have one Source Tree with a Subdirectory Drivers. 
> > When doin a dpkg-buildpackage, two packages should be built. One of the
> > Userspace Program and onle of the kernel-module.
> 
> like mga-vid ?
> 
> /Sune
> 
> 


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Re: Making a multi-binary-kernel-module-package

[Sam Morris]

On Tue, 29 May 2007 14:18:54 +0200, Pascal Speck wrote:

> Yeah, same issue, but where can i get the source of this package with
> the /debian/ directory and all files. In Sources of these Programst the
> /debian directory is always missing.
> 
> Greez Pascal

A debian source package consists of an .orig.tar.gz, a .diff.gz and 
a .dsc (which describes the source, and references the other two files). 
It sounds like you may only be downloading the .orig.tar.gz.

If you go to  you can download 
all three, and extract the package with 'dpkg-source -x mga-vid_*.dsc'. 
(This is just a script that extracts the tar archive and applies the 
patch).

You can do all of that automatically if you run 'apt-get source vga-mod'.

-- 
Sam Morris
http://robots.org.uk/

PGP key id 1024D/5EA01078
3412 EA18 1277 354B 991B  C869 B219 7FDB 5EA0 1078


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Re: Can/should debconf notes still be used?

[Frank Küster]

Don Armstrong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Tue, 29 May 2007, Frank Küster wrote:
>> Don Armstrong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 
>> > On Tue, 29 May 2007, Frank Küster wrote:
>> >> To me, the solution is to resurrect these conffiles without
>> >> prompting, because prompting doesn't make sense if the only working
>> >> answer is "yes". 
>> >
>> > Can you test to see if the system is working without the conffiles? 
>> 
>> There are about 8 RC bug reports which show quite clearly that it
>> doesn't.  There's no sense in testing that in the maintainer script.  If
>> a local admin hacked the system so much that it keeps on working without
>> them, I frankly don't care - it's no longer a Debian TeX Live system.
>
> My point was that in such a system you'd likely end up breaking it by
> reinstalling the conffiles; 

No, the trick would be to hack formats or executables to simply ignore
those files - reinstalling them won't have any effect.

> if such a test is relatively easy, then
> it'd be worth it. If not, then a NEWS.Debian entry on how to return to
> the previous configuration is probably good enough for such an admin.

We'll do that; the test would be quite hard, because there are tons of
possibilities to misconfigure your system such that the error looks
quite similar to a missing file.

Regards, Frank
-- 
Dr. Frank Küster
Single Molecule Spectroscopy, Protein Folding @ Inst. f. Biochemie, Univ. Zürich
Debian Developer (teTeX/TeXLive)

Re: Reasons for recommends and suggests

[Ian Jackson]

Don Armstrong writes ("Re: Reasons for recommends and suggests"):
> On Fri, 18 May 2007, Hendrik Sattler wrote:
> > The description should not explain what the other package is but
> > _what_ it does to the selected package.
> 
> In order to explain what the recommended package does to the
> recommeding package, you have to explain what the other package is to
> some extent.

I think the information about Suggests and Recommends should go in the
Description: in unstructured text for now.  I have been doing that for
my packages forever.  You put a separate paragraph in the Description
which explains what facility the Suggested and Recommended packages
provide.

NB that often the answer is `obvious' so I wouldn't say that there
should be a policy for this information always to be present.  The
maintainer should decide, after listening to the users (who are after
all the people who know what information they're lacking, whereas the
maintainer typically already knows).

It may turn out to be useful later to have some machine-parseable
structured form for this information, but that still has to be designed.

Putting it into the Recommends and Suggests fields directly doesn't
seem like a good idea.  The format of those fields is too constrained
and it would make providing translations very difficult.

I also disagree with the suggestion that the information should be in
README.Debian.  It needs to be available when deciding whether to
install a package - so it should be in the .deb control file where it
will end up in Packages.

Ian.


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Re: A sane guess at default Debian mirror for pbuilder

[Josip Rodin]

On Sun, May 27, 2007 at 09:50:23AM -0600, Wesley J. Landaker wrote:
> > debootstrap:
> > uses ftp.debian.org as default mirror.
> 
> debconf questions aside, I think ftp.debian.org is a much saner *default* 
> than ftp.jp.debian.org. I've always wondered where the later silly default 
> came from. =)

Well, at least it was different... ftp.debian.org is an even more horrible
default, because that's burdering one single machine maxing out its FE card,
where we have a network of >300 mirrors out there that are mostly happy
to share the load.

-- 
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Yahoo voice-chat client for Debian

[arnuld]

i noticed this:  http://www.phrozensmoke.com/projects/pyvoicechat/index.php


it is GPL-ed: http://www.phrozensmoke.com/projects/pyvoicechat/license.php

Debian repositories do not have any Yahoo Voice-Chat client. Can we
have "Gyach Enhanced" in Debian ?


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Re: Wanted: introductory page for all teams

[Josip Rodin]

On Sat, May 26, 2007 at 11:58:54PM +0200, Pierre Habouzit wrote:
> > > and the debian-www team is recovering from the
> > > shock that HTML 4.01 has been released recently and that CSS2 is almost
> > > stable (err wait, I wasn't reading my calendar properly, we're in 2007
> > > not 1997, sorry).
> > 
> > Why don't you join the team?
> 
>   Now unlike Raphaël initiative, *this* is so typical from Debian. The:
> ???You think that sucks, so why don't you step up  attitude. It is a
> very convenient attitude that allows to makes the person making critics
> miserable in front of everybody, hoping he (or she) will hide because of
> the shame, and avoid dealing with the less convenient and less
> auto-satisfactory fact that many aspects in Debian suck.
> 
>   So well, sorry, but I don't see why I should be part of every
> mis-functioning team in Debian to have the right to say they do a poor
> job.

Well, it would at least be fair from you to NOT include the web team
in context of teams that are so incorrigible to be worthy of derision!

The web team, to my knowledge, has very rarely rejected offers for help.
Please don't assume that all teams are alike :(

(This is the thanks I get for hooking you up at LinkedIn :P :)

-- 
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Re: Wanted: introductory page for all teams

[Josip Rodin]

On Sat, May 26, 2007 at 07:53:30PM -0400, David Nusinow wrote:
> The only thing I've ever heard about helping out with the website is that
> it's a herculean task that no mere mortal should attempt.

Where did you hear this?

How does all that documentation we have had for years at
http://www.debian.org/devel/website/ in any way say or imply that
"helping out with the website is a herculean task that no mere mortal
should attempt"? How do all those relatively clueless translators who
simply know two languages manage to get things done? Are they all immortals?

> I trivially had access, as does everyone else on the XSF, even non-DD's,
> making it incredibly easy to actually do work. As far as I'm concerned,
> the web site should be deprecated in favor of the wiki.

It's not trivially easy to do, therefore it sucks?

What's next in this fine line of reasoning, I wonder? It doesn't have
a MS Windows GUI that my granny thinks is trivial, therefore it sucks?

Can you please realize that this kind of unsubstantiated blather actually
hurts the feelings of the people who are making a good-faith effort to
keep the web site working?

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Re: Wanted: introductory page for all teams

[Pierre Habouzit]

On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 07:54:34PM +0200, Josip Rodin wrote:
> On Sat, May 26, 2007 at 11:58:54PM +0200, Pierre Habouzit wrote:
> > > > and the debian-www team is recovering from the
> > > > shock that HTML 4.01 has been released recently and that CSS2 is almost
> > > > stable (err wait, I wasn't reading my calendar properly, we're in 2007
> > > > not 1997, sorry).
> > > 
> > > Why don't you join the team?
> > 
> >   Now unlike Raphaël initiative, *this* is so typical from Debian. The:
> > ???You think that sucks, so why don't you step up  attitude. It is a
> > very convenient attitude that allows to makes the person making critics
> > miserable in front of everybody, hoping he (or she) will hide because of
> > the shame, and avoid dealing with the less convenient and less
> > auto-satisfactory fact that many aspects in Debian suck.
> > 
> >   So well, sorry, but I don't see why I should be part of every
> > mis-functioning team in Debian to have the right to say they do a poor
> > job.
> 
> Well, it would at least be fair from you to NOT include the web team
> in context of teams that are so incorrigible to be worthy of derision!
> 
> The web team, to my knowledge, has very rarely rejected offers for help.
> Please don't assume that all teams are alike :(

  I never said the problems of all those teams were alike. But I don't
think the www team works properly either. I suspect the problem is more
that nobody want's to fight all the DD corpus about a design issue, and
then implement it, because some will find it's too this, others to that,
and the rest will just troll.

  What was unfair wasn't to say debian-www has issues, it was to put it
on the same level than DSA, and for that I appology to the member of the
www team (or group as as it was correctly pointed out, it's rather a
collection of people in the unix group rather than an organized team,
which is also IMHO an explanation of why it does not move a lot, as
there isn't anyone really in charge of the big whole beast).


> (This is the thanks I get for hooking you up at LinkedIn :P :)
  (heh :))

-- 
·O·  Pierre Habouzit
··O[EMAIL PROTECTED]
OOOhttp://www.madism.org


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Re: Yahoo voice-chat client for Debian

[The Fungi]

On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 11:23:27PM +0530, arnuld wrote:
[...]
> Debian repositories do not have any Yahoo Voice-Chat client. Can we
> have "Gyach Enhanced" in Debian ?

See the WNPP bugs filed for...

   220981: ITP gyach-improved (opened 2003, updated 2006)
   335174: ITP gyach-improved (opened 2005, auto-closed 2006)
   381263: RFP gyachi (opened 2006, updated this past March)

That third one points out some pretty significant hurdles to
packaging for inclusion in Debian (x86-only/depends on parts of
Wine, includes sourceless/binary-only media codec libraries, quality
and stability concerns, et cetera).
-- 
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SMTP([EMAIL PROTECTED]); IRC([EMAIL PROTECTED]); ICQ(114362511);
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MUD([EMAIL PROTECTED]:6669); WWW(http://fungi.yuggoth.org/); }


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Re: Wanted: introductory page for all teams

[Josip Rodin]

On Sun, May 27, 2007 at 02:10:09PM -0400, Clint Adams wrote:
> > How were things working in the debian-glibc CVS? Did accidents or hot
> > discussions hapen because of the very opened commit access?
> 
> No more so than happens today with the more closed SVN repo.

But it's not necessarily an indicative result, because the population of
wannabe committers is different, and the problem of translators doesn't
exist.

It's not unfair to say that web editing is by and large much a easier thing
compared to coding the C library. Consequently, the number of people who
know how to do it, as well as the people who *think* they know how to do it,
is much larger. There's a much larger probability of problematic situations
in such a setting.

The ability to easily revert (which I don't particularly fancy in CVS, TBH)
doesn't help with the other problem, the translations. The translators will
get mightily pissed off if a revert war increases the revision number by
5 or 10, and immediately makes their perfectly fine translation out of date
and gets it removed.

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Bug#426581: ITP: meshlab -- System for processing and editing triangular meshes

[Teemu Ikonen]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Teemu Ikonen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

* Package name: meshlab
  Version : 1.1.0b
  Upstream Author : Paolo Cignoni <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
* URL : http://meshlab.sourceforge.net/
* License : GPL
  Programming Lang: C++
  Description : System for processing and editing triangular meshes

 MeshLab is an open source, portable, and extendible system for the
 processing and editing of unstructured 3D triangular meshes.
 The system is aimed to help the processing of the typical not-so-small
 unstructured models arising in 3D scanning, providing a set of tools for
 editing, cleaning, healing, inspecting, rendering and converting this kind
 of meshes.
 .
 Meshlab can read files in these formats: PLY, STL, OFF, OBJ, 3DS, COLLADA
 and PTX. It can write PLY, STL, OFF, OBJ, 3DS, COLLADA, VRML, and DXF.
 .
 Homepage: http://meshlab.sourceforge.net/

I will put preliminary versions of the package to 
http://www.helsinki.fi/~tpikonen/meshlab/
as soon as they're ready.

Teemu

-- System Information:
Debian Release: 4.0
  APT prefers stable
  APT policy: (990, 'stable'), (450, 'testing'), (400, 'unstable'), (1, 
'experimental')
Architecture: i386 (i686)
Shell:  /bin/sh linked to /bin/bash
Kernel: Linux 2.6.18-4-686
Locale: LANG=en_US.UTF-8, LC_CTYPE=en_US.UTF-8 (charmap=UTF-8)


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Re: Wanted: introductory page for all teams

[Frans Pop]

On Tuesday 29 May 2007 20:01, Pierre Habouzit wrote:
>   What was unfair wasn't to say debian-www has issues, it was to put it
> on the same level than DSA, and for that I appology to the member of
> the www team

Thx.


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Bug#426590: ITP: kaa-imlib2 -- Imlib2 Wrapper for Python

[Jeremie Corbier]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Jeremie Corbier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

 * Package name: kaa-imlib2
   Version : 0.2.1
   Upstream Authors: Jason Tackaberry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 * URL : http://freevo.org/kaa
 * License : LGPL
   Programming Lang: Python, C
   Description : Imlib2 Wrapper for Python

 Kaa Imlib2 provides a Python wrapper for the Imlib2 graphics library.
 .
 The Kaa Media Repository is a set of Python modules related to media.

-- 
Jeremie
 /* ``Recursive, adj.;
  see Recursive.''
 -- Unknown   */

-- System Information:
Debian Release: lenny/sid
  APT prefers unstable
  APT policy: (500, 'unstable')
Architecture: i386 (i686)

Kernel: Linux 2.6.20.6dedibox_r7
Locale: LANG=fr_FR.UTF-8, LC_CTYPE=fr_FR.UTF-8 (charmap=UTF-8)
Shell: /bin/sh linked to /bin/bash


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Is flac still maintained?

[Elimar Riesebieter]

Hi,

does one know if the projects maintained by Joshua Kwan are still
in progress? For instance I am waiting for flac 1.1.4 (#411311, 100
days old!)

Elimar

-- 
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  IMHO - Inhalation of a Multi-leafed Herbal Opiate ;)
  --posting from alex in debian-user--


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Re: Is flac still maintained?

[Joshua Kwan]

On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 09:25:46PM +0200, Elimar Riesebieter wrote:
> does one know if the projects maintained by Joshua Kwan are still
> in progress? For instance I am waiting for flac 1.1.4 (#411311, 100
> days old!)

I'm on it. I just got done with finals a week or so ago, please be
patient. I'll announce the library transition procedure soon.

-- 
Joshua Kwan


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Re: Is flac still maintained?

[Steinar H. Gunderson]

On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 09:25:46PM +0200, Elimar Riesebieter wrote:
> does one know if the projects maintained by Joshua Kwan are still
> in progress? For instance I am waiting for flac 1.1.4 (#411311, 100
> days old!)

He was busy with school work last time I asked him, but he definitely still
exists.

/* Steinar */
- who gave up waiting for flac and compiled it himself :-)
-- 
Homepage: http://www.sesse.net/


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Re: net-tools maintenance status

[Olaf van der Spek]

Hi,

On 4/6/07, Martín Ferrari <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Hi again,

On 4/5/07, Martín Ferrari <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I don't know if I will be able to apply for co-maint, but I started
> working a little on triaging. Hope it helps.

I've spent a lot of hours working on net-tools bugs, 17 of them if I
don't miss anything. I usertagged them, so if any other is working on
it can see what I've done so far:
http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/[EMAIL PROTECTED]&tag=working-on-it


Are your updates available from somewhere?

Although Bernd claims to be maintaining the package, his last upload
was in 2005.

Re: Is flac still maintained?

[Elimar Riesebieter]

On Tue, 29 May 2007 the mental interface of
Joshua Kwan told:

> On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 09:25:46PM +0200, Elimar Riesebieter wrote:
> > does one know if the projects maintained by Joshua Kwan are still
> > in progress? For instance I am waiting for flac 1.1.4 (#411311, 100
> > days old!)
> 
> I'm on it. I just got done with finals a week or so ago, please be
> patient. I'll announce the library transition procedure soon.

Thanks
Elimar



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-unknown-


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Re: Is flac still maintained?

[Elimar Riesebieter]

On Tue, 29 May 2007 the mental interface of
Steinar H. Gunderson told:

[...] 
> /* Steinar */
> - who gave up waiting for flac and compiled it himself :-)

Me too ;) But look: I am maintaining the poor console player moc.
I wnat to provide it with actual interfaces.

Elimar

-- 
  Experience is something you don't get until 
  just after you need it!


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Re: Bug#426069: ITP: spip -- website engine for publishing

[Moritz Muehlenhoff]

Romain Beauxis wrote:
> However, I'll contact them and ask for their commitment to solving seciruty 
> issues, but I'm quite sure that the main issue remains in the hand of the 
> maintainer, to be able to update the package as soon as they fix anything..

It had too many security problems in 2006. We already have far too many
buggy packages in the archive, security updates are not an infinite ressource.
I recommend to upload to experimental and re-evaluate it's security history
four months prior to Lenny freeze.

Cheers,
Moritz


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Re: Is flac still maintained?

[Andrei Popescu]

On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 11:07:03PM +0200, Elimar Riesebieter wrote:
 
> Me too ;) But look: I am maintaining the poor console player moc.
> I wnat to provide it with actual interfaces.

What do you mean by poor? It's a great player. Thanks for maintaining!

Regards,
Andrei (happy moc user)
-- 
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.
(Albert Einstein)


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Re: A sane guess at default Debian mirror for pbuilder

[Javier Fernández-Sanguino Peña]

On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 07:48:59PM +0200, Josip Rodin wrote:
> Well, at least it was different... ftp.debian.org is an even more horrible
> default, because that's burdering one single machine maxing out its FE card,
> where we have a network of >300 mirrors out there that are mostly happy
> to share the load.

I have to ask: why isn't ftp.debian.org a RR DNS entry? Or even better,
wouldn't it be possible to setup a load balancer in front of ftp.debian.org
(with a GE card) to share the load amongst more than one system?

Regards

Javier


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Re: Wanted: introductory page for all teams

[Clint Adams]

On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 08:30:23PM +0200, Josip Rodin wrote:
> It's not unfair to say that web editing is by and large much a easier thing
> compared to coding the C library. Consequently, the number of people who
> know how to do it, as well as the people who *think* they know how to do it,
> is much larger. There's a much larger probability of problematic situations
> in such a setting.

I'm not sure I buy that argument.  How would you rank debian-kernel
work, which seems to be not infrequently rife with ego problems and
revert wars?


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BoF: Supporting 15,000 packages - How much support do we mean?

[Ben Hutchings]

There were some discussions on -private (and possibly here?) earlier in
the year about quality vs quantity of packages.

It should be clear to most developers that our many packages are not all
equal in quality; nor are all maintainers. Not everyone is aware that
packages in a stable release may have serious known bugs - even security
bugs - that won't get fixed because of overstretched or MIA developers,
or lack of upstream support. There is a trade-off between quantity and
quality of packages in the archive, and Debian is not as selective as
many other distributions.

I don't think we want to start grading maintainers and I believe there's
a consensus that we should not be more selective about packages, but I
think it would be a service to our users to grade how well supported
packages are. I have a number of ideas for ways in which this could be
done, but I think a discussion would yield something better that might
eventually be accepted cover a whole release.

So there will be a BoF at DebConf about this.

Ben.

-- 
Ben Hutchings
For every complex problem
there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.


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Re: Wanted: introductory page for all teams

[Josip Rodin]

On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 06:37:45PM -0400, Clint Adams wrote:
> > It's not unfair to say that web editing is by and large much a easier thing
> > compared to coding the C library. Consequently, the number of people who
> > know how to do it, as well as the people who *think* they know how to do it,
> > is much larger. There's a much larger probability of problematic situations
> > in such a setting.
> 
> I'm not sure I buy that argument.  How would you rank debian-kernel
> work, which seems to be not infrequently rife with ego problems and
> revert wars?

In terms of difficulty, it's clearly much like glibc.

Now that you mention that, that's even more disconcerting, and probably
makes for an even lousier prospect for the web pages.

Anyway, before we get lost in all this prediction stuff, I'm yet to hear
a good reason why we need complete triviality in the access method, as
opposed to the kind of triviality we have had for years now: all that is
necessary to get webwml access is to send a mail to debian-www saying
you've read some docs and you want access.

-- 
 2. That which causes joy or happiness.


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Re: A sane guess at default Debian mirror for pbuilder

[Josip Rodin]

On Wed, May 30, 2007 at 12:25:21AM +0200, Javier Fernández-Sanguino Pe?a wrote:
> > Well, at least it was different... ftp.debian.org is an even more horrible
> > default, because that's burdering one single machine maxing out its FE card,
> > where we have a network of >300 mirrors out there that are mostly happy
> > to share the load.
> 
> I have to ask: why isn't ftp.debian.org a RR DNS entry? Or even better,
> wouldn't it be possible to setup a load balancer in front of ftp.debian.org
> (with a GE card) to share the load amongst more than one system?

Last I heard from one of the DSAs in charge of that (I can't remember now
which one of them), and that was just barely and years ago, it was because
we couldn't get >1 machine to be sufficiently synchronized. I was never
allowed to do major changes with the existing US mirrors in order to get
something done about that.

None of those things changed since then, it seems.

-- 
 2. That which causes joy or happiness.


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Re: Wanted: introductory page for all teams

[Clint Adams]

On Wed, May 30, 2007 at 01:02:12AM +0200, Josip Rodin wrote:
> Anyway, before we get lost in all this prediction stuff, I'm yet to hear
> a good reason why we need complete triviality in the access method, as
> opposed to the kind of triviality we have had for years now: all that is
> necessary to get webwml access is to send a mail to debian-www saying
> you've read some docs and you want access.

I don't have a good reason, but for me it's the difference between
contributing or not.  If I already have access and I get an itch, I will
scratch it.  If I don't, I will either forget about it or complain.  I
am unlikely to go through whatever bureaucracy is set up to request
access.  Whether or not this is a loss for debian-www is not something I
feel comfortable asserting.


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Re: Wanted: introductory page for all teams

[David Nusinow]

On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 08:00:17PM +0200, Josip Rodin wrote:
> On Sat, May 26, 2007 at 07:53:30PM -0400, David Nusinow wrote:
> > The only thing I've ever heard about helping out with the website is that
> > it's a herculean task that no mere mortal should attempt.
> 
> Where did you hear this?

Word of mouth, usually in conjunction with promises that the site would be
updated to not look like it came from the 90's and no visible improvements
in that area. I'd heard about meetings at debconf/debcamps to work on this,
and yet the site still looks almost identical to the way it did when I
first downloaded Debian back in 1999. People said it was a big task, and if
it was true then that would explain the lack of visible progress despite
all the discussions.

> How does all that documentation we have had for years at
> http://www.debian.org/devel/website/ in any way say or imply that
> "helping out with the website is a herculean task that no mere mortal
> should attempt"? How do all those relatively clueless translators who
> simply know two languages manage to get things done? Are they all immortals?

Translation is fundamentally different than restructuring the website and
bringing it up to modern standards. From what I understood, one of the
reasons why it was so hard to restructure the site was because it was
carefully set up for easy translation, making it tied to specific tools. I
didn't care enough to investigate further.

> > I trivially had access, as does everyone else on the XSF, even non-DD's,
> > making it incredibly easy to actually do work. As far as I'm concerned,
> > the web site should be deprecated in favor of the wiki.
> 
> It's not trivially easy to do, therefore it sucks?
> 
> What's next in this fine line of reasoning, I wonder? It doesn't have
> a MS Windows GUI that my granny thinks is trivial, therefore it sucks?

I don't consider my job in Debian to maintain the website. I consider my
job to help maintain X. I've taken it upon myself to work on the XSF wiki
pages because it's useful and important, but it's clearly a secondary
concern to actually working on the software. Given this, anything that
makes the job easier and more trivial so I can focus on what I consider to
be important is a very valid reason.

I think that any tool that lets us do this should be considered. Debian
isn't in the website creating business, we're in the Free Software
Distribution creating business. If a tool, like a wiki, makes it
substantially easier for us to go about that business then yes, I think we
should use it.

> Can you please realize that this kind of unsubstantiated blather actually
> hurts the feelings of the people who are making a good-faith effort to
> keep the web site working?

I'm not trying to hurt anyone's feelings, nor am I trying to criticize
anyone. I had heard that overhauling the website (not just keeping it
working) was a big task, and that shouldn't be interpreted as heaping
scorn on you or anyone else.

 - David Nusinow


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Bug#426613: ITP: gtwitter -- Client for tracking and posting to twitter

[Michael Janssen]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Michael Janssen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

* Package name: gtwitter
  Version : 0.2.4
  Upstream Author : Nil Gradisnik <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
* URL : http://code.google.com/p/gtwitter
* License : GPL
  Programming Lang: C#
  Description : Client for tracking and posting to twitter

gTwitter is a client for posting and fetching updates to the 
twitter service.
.
The twitter service is a micro-blogging tool hosted on twitter.com.
It hopes to answer the question "what are you doing?" and works with
AIM clients and phones as well as publishing it's own API.

-- System Information:
Debian Release: lenny/sid
  APT prefers unstable
  APT policy: (500, 'unstable'), (300, 'experimental')
Architecture: i386 (i686)

Kernel: Linux 2.6.18.2 (SMP w/2 CPU cores; PREEMPT)
Locale: LANG=en_US.UTF-8, LC_CTYPE=en_US.UTF-8 (charmap=UTF-8)
Shell: /bin/sh linked to /bin/bash


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Better documenting what does not work in Etch.

[Charles Plessy]

Dear developpers,

Since the release, I am using only Etch, and there something frustrating
in the fact that discovering and reporting minor problems is not very
helpful.

What could be the other obvious points of information ? For example,
here are the kind of issues I experienced:

- Japanese input systems can crash iceweasel or distrub nautilus
  depending how they are invoked.

- apt-get source does not honor the -t option.

- DRI can crash Xorg on some powermacs with some ATI cards, disabling it
  solves the problem.

- emacs is not configured by default to use han characters, but can.

- by default, /etc/motd is not the Message Of The Day anymore, since
  changes are lost on reboot and /etc/motd is not automatically updated
  when /etc/motd.tail is modified.

- IBM does not provide anymore the java tarballs supported by
  java-package.

- KDE creates a bogus trashcan on GNOME desktop.


Under the current policy, not all fixes to these problems would make it
in a point release, but since the list is likely to grow longer and
longer with time, I am really wondering if there is a better way to
inform the users of that kind of issues, if possible a priori. Among the
possibilities :

- An Etch-centric view of the BTS (user friendly),
- More updates to the release notes,
- Documentation updates (BUGS section in the manpages)

Other ideas ?

Have a nice day,

-- 
Charles Plessy
http://charles.plessy.org
Wako, Saitama, Japan


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Re: Better documenting what does not work in Etch.

[Don Armstrong]

On Wed, 30 May 2007, Charles Plessy wrote:
> - An Etch-centric view of the BTS (user friendly),

This is already supported; simply append dist=stable.

As far as making it user friendly, it has been a goal of mine to
eventually allow users to set cookies to do the distribution selection
automatically, but I haven't gotten there yet.


Don Armstrong

-- 
No matter how many instances of white swans we may have observed, this
does not justify the conclusion that all swans are white.
 -- Sir Karl Popper _Logic of Scientific Discovery_

http://www.donarmstrong.com  http://rzlab.ucr.edu


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Re: Bug#426069: ITP: spip -- website engine for publishing

[Romain Beauxis]

Le Tuesday 29 May 2007 23:12:53 Moritz Muehlenhoff, vous avez écrit :
> Romain Beauxis wrote:
> > However, I'll contact them and ask for their commitment to solving
> > seciruty issues, but I'm quite sure that the main issue remains in the
> > hand of the maintainer, to be able to update the package as soon as they
> > fix anything..
>
> It had too many security problems in 2006. We already have far too many
> buggy packages in the archive, security updates are not an infinite
> ressource. I recommend to upload to experimental and re-evaluate it's
> security history four months prior to Lenny freeze.

I'll of course make initial upload into experimental.
However, one of upstream's developpers has join the packaging effort, so I 
don't see anything preventing a good security support for this package.


Romain
-- 
Police and thieves in the street
Oh yeah!
Fighting the nation with their guns and ammunition

Re: BoF: Supporting 15,000 packages - How much support do we mean?

[Steve Langasek]

On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 11:51:38PM +0100, Ben Hutchings wrote:
> There were some discussions on -private (and possibly here?) earlier in
> the year about quality vs quantity of packages.

> It should be clear to most developers that our many packages are not all
> equal in quality; nor are all maintainers. Not everyone is aware that
> packages in a stable release may have serious known bugs - even security
> bugs - that won't get fixed because of overstretched or MIA developers,
> or lack of upstream support.

What evidence do you have that serious security bugs "won't get fixed" in a
stable release because of MIA developers?  AFAIK, the burden of providing
security updates largely falls on the shoulders of the security team, even
in many cases where the maintainers are not MIA.

-- 
Steve Langasek   Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer   to set it on, and I can move the world.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.debian.org/


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Bug#426625: general: /etc/adjtime etc. wetbacks

[Dan Jacobson]

Package: general
Severity: wishlist

Files like /etc/adjtime should either be related to some package
(searchable via dlocate, etc.) or should have a note inside them
saying how they got on our disk: what package brought them there.


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Purging of unneeded localization (cleaL10n)

[Oleg Verych]

Hallo.

If somebody is interested, here is a complete rewrite of `localepurge'
with small `dpkg-deb' implementation to have this done before
unpacking archive on the file system.

Reading docs in `localepurge's directory dated six years back, i fail
to explain to myself, why this is in so horrible state? It seems, more
power was spent to develop ever worthless deb config files, rather
than tool itself.

Anyway, as in the end of the /usr/share/doc/localepurge/README.debian,
here's an one try to solve l10n problems in the "great package
management system". As per TODO.Debian, if anybody knows better
optimization steps and techniques i've proposed, please let me know.

ftp://flower.upol.cz/cleaL10n.tar.bz2

Thanks.
--
-o--=O`C  info emacs : something
 #oo'L O  info make  : not found
<___=E M  man gcc: not found


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Parsing of dpkg status file considered harmful

[Guillem Jover]

Hi,

I've been meaning to send this for some time, but latest docbook-xml
upload finally triggered it.

Please stop parsing dpkg status file from maintainer scripts. No
package should assume its location or format (except for now for
package managment frontends and the like, until there's a proper
library they can use). This might make it really difficult in case
we have to change the db layout or whatever in the future.

If you need to retrieve the conffile info, which is why most of those
packages are poking at the status file, please use something like:

  $ dpkg-query -W -f='${Conffiles}' docbook-xml

which is also cleaner. If there happens to be any reentrancy problem
in dpkg-query, that will be considered a bug and fixed, so this should
be considered the standard api for maintainer scripts.

I'll be filing bug reports on lintian and linda so that they give
errors on maintainer scripts poking at the file...

thanks,
guillem


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Bug#426625: marked as done (general: /etc/adjtime etc. wetbacks)

[Debian Bug Tracking System]

Your message dated Wed, 30 May 2007 08:14:36 +0300
with message-id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
and subject line Bug#426625: general: /etc/adjtime etc. wetbacks
has caused the attached Bug report to be marked as done.

This means that you claim that the problem has been dealt with.
If this is not the case it is now your responsibility to reopen the
Bug report if necessary, and/or fix the problem forthwith.

(NB: If you are a system administrator and have no idea what I am
talking about this indicates a serious mail system misconfiguration
somewhere.  Please contact me immediately.)

Debian bug tracking system administrator
(administrator, Debian Bugs database)

--- Begin Message ---
Package: general
Severity: wishlist

Files like /etc/adjtime should either be related to some package
(searchable via dlocate, etc.) or should have a note inside them
saying how they got on our disk: what package brought them there.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dan,

On Wed, 2007-05-30 at 10:09:11 +0800, Dan Jacobson wrote:
> Package: general
> Severity: wishlist
> 
> Files like /etc/adjtime should either be related to some package
> (searchable via dlocate, etc.) or should have a note inside them
> saying how they got on our disk: what package brought them there.

You already filed this bug report (at least once) on #234286.
Closing.

regards,
guillem
--- End Message ---

Re: Can/should debconf notes still be used?

[Steve Langasek]

On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 01:22:10PM +0200, Frank Küster wrote:
> Don Armstrong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, 29 May 2007, Frank Küster wrote:
> >> To me, the solution is to resurrect these conffiles without
> >> prompting, because prompting doesn't make sense if the only working
> >> answer is "yes". 

> > Can you test to see if the system is working without the conffiles? 

> There are about 8 RC bug reports which show quite clearly that it
> doesn't.  There's no sense in testing that in the maintainer script.  If
> a local admin hacked the system so much that it keeps on working without
> them, I frankly don't care - it's no longer a Debian TeX Live system.

> > if not,
> > restore them once.

> Yes, we'll do it only once anyway.

How do you plan to ensure that?  Since old versions of the tetex packages
with the broken postrm are still in the wild, and a user may have already
removed the tetex package but *not* purged it yet by the time fixed tetex
packages became available, AFAICS any strategy that will make sure that the
conffiles are only restored once (e.g., by only restoring the conffiles when
upgrading from an older version of the texlive packages) will not be able to
reliably fix this problem for all users.

-- 
Steve Langasek   Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer   to set it on, and I can move the world.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.debian.org/


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